Reply-To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Discipline #87 Discipline, Number 87 Monday, 26 April 1993 Today's Topics: Guitar World starless Re: The scoop first time Crimson Levin/Belew Sighting Bruford and the Beat Extrapolation Ian McDonald Shame ? Re: The Word on new King Crmison Second Look At "Great Deceiver" Box RE: Ian McDonald Discipline #86 Guitar Craft Killer Bass Line Weird noises in _Larks..._ Another Wetton Defense/New Crimso sylvian record kann on power possibilities [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Hi team. My apologies for the delay of getting this issue out -- I was away on holiday last week. Consequently., we have more contributions in one issue than usual, but I hope you'll agree there's some interesting stuff here. Well, that's enough from me. Oh, one thing. How about people contributing some .gifs to be placed in the archive? -- Toby [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1993 16:20:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Chad H Hutchinson Subject: Guitar World Hi kids, The latest issue of Guitar World (Coverdale/Page cover) has a little blurb about Robert Fripp. I basically just mentions the Live Box and says that he is definitely continuing with his plans to refrom Kin Crimson and put out an album sometime this year. From what I read of the Rolling Stone article, this new version of Crimso' is gonna be great. ============================================================================ | | | \ _____ \ \ \ ____ \ The Ghost | | \ \ \ \ \ ghost at brahms dot udel dot edu | | \ \ \ \_____ \ ____ Chemical Engineering | | \ \ \ \ \ \ University of Delaware | | \__ \_______ \______ \__ \__ | | "Life redirected in ways unexpected." | ============================================================================ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: zilla at ccrl dot nj dot nec dot com (John Lewis) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 93 17:40:35 EDT Subject: starless > From: c_king at emulex dot com > anyone explain to me the value of that meandering 13/4 tick-tock, > Fripp's-bored, break after the vocal section? Eric Tamm made that song out > to be the best KC ever did, but really, does anyone like it after the 7th > listen? The final section sounds too much like a hokey, cliche, It seems impossible to explain the value of music i think- either you like it or you don't. I think Starless is one of the greatest tunes ever, *including* the long minimalist second half. The minimalist ending has also been influential (i believe); several N.Y. composers (Michael Gordon being one) have done fairly obvious rip-offs of just that section; I perceive its influence some in the great Massacre/Killing Time album (Frith, etc.). [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: cs64sbt at sdcc8 dot UCSD dot EDU (Paolo Valladolid) Subject: Re: The scoop Date: Sat, 10 Apr 93 18:11:00 PDT Glad to hear that Belew is back! I was wondering about that guy...if he did turn down Robert's invitation, I would have recommended another Zappa alumnus, Mike Keneally (whose music is more influenced by Gentle Giant than Crimson), a vocalist/multi-instrumentalist who, like Belew has a good sense of humour, and has scary instrumental chops to boot. But really, it's good to know Belew will be teaming up with the King again. I'm going to watch the paper very closely now to see when tickets will go on sale for the next tour... Now didn't someone post here earlier with a report that Fripp said the band would have four previous members of Crimson and one new guy? I count three previous members here... Paolo [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 11 Apr 93 14:00:28 EDT From: christp at alleg dot edu Subject: first time Crimson My first experience with Crimson was, gee, all the way back in December of 1987. I was a little tyke, still listening to the radio. Late one night I was listening to a classic rock station and this ominous song came over the airwaves, a song like I'd never heard before. I was captivated and had to have a tape of it, but the station didn't announce who played it. A few months later I figured out that the song was "In the Court of the Crimson King" by this group named King Crimson. I got my hands on "The Compact King Crimson" and listened to it all the way through. I first heard "Discipline" and "Thela Hun Ginjeet" and thought I had the wrong tape. Nevertheless, I liked what I heard and quickly developed a great fascination for Uncle Bob et al. As I continue to discover the impressive extent of Crimson influence, my fascination grows all the stronger. A typical "love at first sight" story perhaps... I look forward to the chance to hear and maybe even see the next Crimson incarnation. Electronically Yours, Pete [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Subject: Levin/Belew Sighting Date: Sun, 11 Apr 93 19:07:37 EDT From: "The Wombat" Organization: Neurotica Ltd. Yup, those of us in the states, or I suppose if you have a Satellite Dish were treated to Belew and Levin in Peter Gabriels band on Saturday Night Live thsi saturday (Before Easter) Good music! Anyone have any idea what Levin had on his fingers for "Steam"? Also,do these guys ever age? -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-This message was brought to you by Matthew Frazer-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Your village may be different from other people's villages but we are all prisoners. -Patrick McGoohan My Saab is not old, It is Experienced. 1985 900 Turbo, 110k miles Finger mfrazer at scott dot skidmore dot edu for more --------------------------------=Be Seeing You=-------------------------------- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 11 Apr 1993 20:04:11 -0500 (EST) From: I WILL MAKE IT A FELONY TO DRINK SMALL BEER Subject: Bruford and the Beat Hello everyone. I'm looking for a copy of the elusive (at least for me) video Bruford and the Beat. I'd be willing to trade KC (or other groups stuff) stuff for it. Please let me know (through e-mail) if you can help me out here. Thanks! Nate Shue stu_neshue at vax1 dot acs dot jmu dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 11 Apr 93 19:09 PST From: ken%wet at netcom dot com (kenneth stuart) Subject: Extrapolation Hello, I recently picked up John McLaughlin's first album, entitled "Extrapolation" from 1969, on CD. This was due to the fact that I like McLaughlin's other early albums, but mostly due to Fripp's mention of it in his interview of McLaughlin. Interestingly, I found several things from specific riffs to general styles of arrangement that are echoed in some King Crimson albums (especially "Islands", which is not surprising given it is the most jazzy Crimson). It makes more sense now that Fripp specifically avoided listening to Mahavishnu Orchestra, so as to avoid further "transfers". By the way, I would characterize "Extrapolation" as mildly-avant-garde jazz. And, in another issue raised by the Fripp interview of McLaughlin posted to Discipline a few months ago, McLaughlin mentions how much he likes the "newly released live 1959 Miles Davis album with Coltrane, Adderley and Evans". Well, I have asked a number of jazz aficianados, including one with a database, and no one knows of any such album! The interview was printed in 1982 and presumably took place within the year before, and there seems not to have been any such release then. There DO exist two albums, each of which have one side of 1958 live recordings of that lineup..... Cheers, Ken [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: stuart%apollo dot hp dot com at hpl dot hp dot co dot uk Subject: Ian McDonald Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 10:54:03 EDT I believe I recall Ian McDonald appearing as a studio session musician on some albums recorded in London in the 70s. Check "B.B. King in London" for instance. -stuart at apollo dot hp dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: adekhtya at ha15 dot eng dot ua dot edu (Alexander M. Dekhtyar) Subject: Shame ? Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 18:13:06 CDT rpeck at pure dot com (Ray Peck) writes in the previous (#86) issue : > >Someone asked about The Great Deceiver on one of the rec.music newsgroups >recently. I responded that it's great, etc., etc. I just got the >following mail quoting my post, and sent the following following reply. I >hope nobody grants this guy his "favor". . . <<<<<>>>>>>>> > >>From rpeck Fri Mar 26 13:47:19 1993 PST >>To: sk0m at Lehigh dot EDU (SYED KIRMANI) >> Hi there! >> I am a fan of King Crimson, but I don't have the live set from >> 73-74, since I can't afford it. Could you do me a favor, i.e if I >> send you blank tapes, could you record them for me! > >Absolutely not. Fripp well deserves all the money you spend on this >set, and I shan't take it from him. Save your pennies, and give the >guy the business he deserves: he is by no means a rich man. I don't >have a problem taping bootlegs or out-of-print records, but I won't >take food from this man's mouth. > >I am shocked and disappointed that you sent me this mail. . . > The artist knew their faces well The husbands of his lady friends His creditors and councillors In armor bright, the merchant men KC, the Night Watch Let me *NOT* agree with you here. I hate to use here the fact that I'm from Russia, but I have to, because this is why I can't agree. First - I have to do with poverty of my country as much as you have to do with prosperity of your. I'm not ashamed of saying that I cannot afford not only CD Boxed Set, but any single CD. BAck at home, I guess, all the KC fans of my city could probably split the price and buy 1 Boxed Set.. )-: But : does this fact make me elegible to the music ? If you think so - than you're completely wrong... In this case 95% of Russian fans of KC, and not only of KC, but of any kind of rock music should not be allowed to have the recordings of their favorite artists. The fact that you can afford to buy "The Great Deciever" and I cannot, does not make you better than me with the respect to the music of KC. You cannot buy the music - you can buy only the music carrier. I agree that R. Fripp deserves his money. But here your position is even more pathetic. Those recordings, done w/out Fripp's permission will take much more "food from this man's mouth". They make their entrance one by one Defenders of that way of life The redbrick home, the bourgeoisie Guitar lessons for the wife KC, the Night Watch ...............Alex, "an email animal"................. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: gtaylor at vme dot heurikon dot com (Gregory Taylor) Newsgroups: rec.music.misc Subject: Re: The Word on new King Crmison Date: 11 Apr 93 06:20:19 GMT Reply-To: gtaylor at vme dot heurikon dot com (Gregory Taylor) Organization: Heurikon Corporation, Madison, WI jdliss at unix dot amherst dot edu (Jeff Liss) writes: >Other Fripp projects: a "rocking Crimsonesque" album with the lineup of >Fripp, Marotta, Gunn, and ex-Japan vocalist David Slyvian. Those of you who have heard the Japanese performances the trio of Gunn, Sylvian, and Fripp did may be interested that [as far as I'm aware], there is approximately *zero* overlap from the trio material to the new stuff, which is currently in the mixdown stages. -- It is not a film./You cannot stay outside it/feeling the actual breeze and scent/or play it backwards to the place where everyone/agreed upon a dest- ination,a politics in which no one is exploited and the material/for weight- less summer clothes appears from nowhere./Gregory Alan Taylor/608-828-3385 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 14 Apr 93 06:56:20 PDT From: I heard the voice of a pork chop. 14-Apr-1993 0955 Subject: Second Look At "Great Deceiver" Box I just got my second copy of "Great Deceiver" yesterday. The first was a Christmas present that I had to take back because the box had two copies of disk #2 and none of #4. It took the record store *three months* to get me a new copy (I love mall record stores, I told my wife I would kill her if she ever bought me anything there again). Anyway, the three months allowed me a chance to listen to the box with fresh ears. At Christmas time, I thought the set was bit hard to take, yet I actully sat through three disks last night and it seemed a lot more cohesive. However, I did notice one intersting point that noone else has seemed to mention. I think this box is reminiscent of the Grateful Dead, in its obsessive need to display numerous versions of the same songs and offer improv segments that had been previously unreleased. In fact, Fripp goes so far as to mention "Crimheads"! Oddly, he apologizes for including "Talking Drum" twice, then goes off and features *four* takes of "Easy Money". Sheesh.... I was unlucky enough to be stationed overseas in the Army during the life span of the middle-period Crimson so never had a chance to see them. The studio albums never made allusions to the fact that many of the tracks were live, and at the time the band was not well-known for live improv (curiously, the Dead already had a rep for that in those days). This box allows Fripp to recast the band's history in a new light. The real weird thing is that Fripp's new interest in releasing live tracks seems at odds with his feelings about "Earthbound" and "USA". While the first was released against his wishes, clearly he had input to the second (in fact he supervised overdubs to correct some faulty violin tracks), but "USA" did not figure into his remastering project. For that matter, each time Fripp revisits himself he seems to like to tamper with things. Comparing "Young Person's Guide" to "Compact King Crimson", it seems as if the albums between "Court" and "Lark's Tongue" fell out of favor with him. Then, he resurrected some of that material for "Frame by Frame" but modified it (i.e. the vocals to "Cadence and Cascade"). Even his reissue of the "God Save The Queen" set chopped that album down to pair it with portions of the League of Gentlemen release, and used newly recorded solos to replace the originals. It's certainly within Fripp's rights to do with the material as he pleases but it's disconcerting to say the least. I like the box overall but wish it had either more improv sections in place of multiple versions of other songs; in fact this could have been reduced to two disks if the alternate versions were dropped and it wouldn't have suffered greatly. Oh well, it's easy to grouse. It's still for fans only, luckily I am one. Brian Rost rost at tecrus dot enet dot dec dot com 508-568-6115 DEC, Hudson, MA ******************************************************************************* "King Crimson was one of the few gigs for a rock drummer where you could play in 17/16 and still stay in decent hotels." - Bill Bruford ******************************************************************************* [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 12:43:03 -0400 From: kuznick at meglos dot mdcorp dot ksc dot nasa dot gov (david kuznick) Subject: RE: Ian McDonald He also produced _Night on Bald Mountain_ by Fireballet and played some flute and keyboards(?). An excelent album by the way. David Kuznick - kuznick at meglos dot mdcorp dot ksc dot nasa dot gov "C++ also supports the notion of 'friends': cooperative classes that are permitted to see each other's private parts" Booch:_Object Oriented Design_ I always said that C++ was a perverted language... [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 14 Apr 93 17:34:29 EDT From: Michael Sheehan <70373 dot 3423 at CompuServe dot COM> Subject: Discipline #86 Mike Stok wrote: >>> Back in '82 or '83 when I was at Durham University (in the UK) I had the fortune to meet a drummer who managed to broaden my horizons from just Genesis & solo members' projects (+1 Bonzo Dog Band tape and an Abba tape ;-) <<< Hey, a Bonzos tape! At least you weren't uncivilized. But whom are these Abba persons to whom your refer? :-=) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: ASAEL at vms dot huji dot ac dot il@cs.man.ac.uk Date: Thu, 15 Apr 93 15:39 +0200 Subject: Guitar Craft Hello to every single body out there! I subscribed to Discipline about a month ago, and poking into older issues my eyes fell upon an entry from Toby concerning Guitar Craft courses (#38, that is). I wonder if someone on the list has/is experienced/ing such a course, and is willing to share it with the rest of us here. If this was already done - where is it present? I also wonder if the UK address given there [i.e. Guitar Craft, c/o EG Management Ltd., 63a, Kings Road, London, SW3 4NT.] is still valid. Thanx in advance, RamZ. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1993 17:02:33 -0400 Organization: The Leningrad Carrot Conspiracy From: rbharding at yuggoth dot org (Ron Harding) Subject: Killer Bass Line In Discipline #86, c_king writes > > I compared the hummability of "Smile Has Left Your Eyes" to "Book of > Saturday" It made me think of a question I want to ask Discipline readers: > Don't you think, in your heart of hearts, that the bass line--the sometimes > castigated John Wetton's bass line--to "Book of Saturday" is the best line > in the entire Crimson catalog? Okay, okay. We'll give special mention to > "Elephant Talk" as the best funk line, but I mean overall bass line. > > Don't get me wrong now. I loved "Starless" at one time in my life, but can > anyone explain to me the value of that meandering 13/4 tick-tock, > Fripp's-bored, break after the vocal section? Eric Tamm made that song out > to be the best KC ever did, but really, does anyone like it after the 7th > listen? The final section sounds too much like a hokey, cliche, > bang-boom-kapow movie soundtrack. [However, on one of the live versions (I > think it's on Deceiver) David Cross did the best solo of his life. For > once he was on fire.] > > Pretty melody though. It'd make a nice acoustic number, maybe. > Well, I've heard Starless countless time, and I still love it. My roommate, definately not a Crimson fan, thinks it's boring and repetitive. Bollocks to him. I've figured out how to play the bass part from Starless (in my own limited, been-playing-6-months way.) I may post some tab if there's any interest. Maybe I'll look at Book of Saturday next. > Discipline #whatever is great fun. Thanks, Toby. Truer words were never spoken. +---------------------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Nuke'Em: Get them before they get you! | Ron Harding | | Another quality home game from Butler Bros. | rbharding at yuggoth dot org | +---------------------------------------------+----------------------------+ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 15 Apr 93 15:30:42 MDT From: mlh at cygnus dot ta52 dot lanl dot gov (Michael L. Hall) Subject: Weird noises in _Larks..._ I have a friend who is slowly introducing me to King Crimson (thanks, John). I'm on this list, own the _..._Crimson_King_ and _Discipline_ albums, and have listened to several more that I've borrowed from John. I sent John some notes about things I heard in my first listening of LTiA, and he responded with info about what the sounds really were (backwards guitar, frippertronics, etc.). I thought that the list might be interested in my notes on the sounds, so here they are: Weird noises in _Larks'_Tongues_in_Aspic_: Larks' Tongues in Aspic, Part One: Scratchy sound in left speaker Bird sounds Voices at end, sometimes reading, sometimes angry or irritated Cat sounds at end The Book Of Saturday: Backwards violin? -- neat sound! Exiles: Dog yipping and howling Easy Money: Soggy rags sloshed in buckets in the beginning Pebbles being dropped Pan with water in it being struck or springy sound A yard of packing tape being pulled off someone's leg Bird sounds Gremlins Laughter Hacking up a hairball Wind-y crank noise Laughter over a (bad) car speaker -- very tinny The Talking Drum: Wind blowing Bug in your ear Pig noise guitar Larks' Tongues in Aspic, Part Two: High-pitched demonic laughter in left speaker Someone killing demon in left speaker Pig squealing in left speaker Frog sound At the very end, very softly, he says "Could I do one more immediately?" (I finally found a use for the repeat function of WorkMan. That and all the volume I have available.) As you might have guessed, I think I liked Easy Money the best. Mike Hall hall at lanl dot gov [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 15 Apr 93 20:29:00 PDT From: c_king at emulex dot com Subject: Another Wetton Defense/New Crimso David asked in #86 what good corporate rock was and why should John Wetton waste his talent and time in it. I don't love corporate rock. However, corporate rock bands require a certain difficult-to-find talent: what kind of music will make the pretty girls shake and the teenage boys buy the album? If you have the talent to write music like that, and John Wetton certainly does, is that any less difficult than writing some overly self-concious 17/4, pointless weird voices, silly violin solo, sounds like a guitar workshop-type song like Lark's Tongues pt. I? Actually I think it took a lot more talent to write, record, and perform "Heat of the Moment," than it took to write, record, and perform most songs on "Three of a Perfect Pair"; all of "Moonchild"; and 72% of the "Beat" CD. Pretentious, overly clever music is even worse than corporate rock since corporate rock doesn't pretend to be something better than it is. Oh, I haven't sold out: If I were on a desert island with two or three of those pretty girls that shake so nicely, I'd trade one or two of them for a fifth-generation cassette copy of John, Bill, and Bobby playing "Asbury Park" and "Lark's Tongues pt.II". Anyway . . . . What do you all think this new band is going to sound like? I'm puzzled by the two Stick players. As a Stick player myself, I'm not sure what to expect when two of them go tapping off together at 130dB. Here's the only reference points I can think of: Ornette Coleman's Prime Time which often plays with two bass players or Talking Heads when they used both Busta Jones and Tina Weymouth on bass. Two bass/Stick players!!! Oh why waste all those possibilities on Marotta when they could've had Bruford! Thanks, Chris King [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 21 Apr 93 15:16:45 -0700 From: David A. Craig Subject: sylvian record does anyone out there know a) what the record (w/ fripp et. al.) (the new one) is called and b) if it has been released yet ? also, did earthworks' "stomping ground live" come out when it was supposed to? people here seem more clueless than usual. thanks! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 21 Apr 93 15:17:55 -0700 From: David A. Craig Subject: kann on power would the person who brought this up please contact me? (don't worry, this thanks [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 21 Apr 93 09:07:44 EDT From: christp at alleg dot edu Subject: possibilities WHAT WOULD the possibility be of a Living Colour/ King Crimson tour? I guess that if U2 can tour with Heroes of Hiphoppracy (sp?) and Primus... anything can happen!? OR, what about Fripp and Eno? Will they possibly tour in the future? Eno could show off his "new-found prowess" on the guitar... Are there any release dates out there for the next box set? CLIVE BACKHAM: What is your alternate address? Electronically Yours, Pete Christopher [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] To join this mailing list or have your thoughts in the next issue, please send electronic mail to Toby Howard at the following address: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk The Discipline archives are available on ftp.uwp.edu, in /pub/music/lists/discipline. The views expressed in Discipline are those of the individual authors only.