Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #867 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 867 Friday, 10 August 2001 Today's Topics: Hendrix and ELP RobertFripp and Bill Nelson actually playing together geezers Re: fripp and hendrix? Maybe... how about hendrix and elp bootleg crimson MFSL ItCotCK LP Harmonia 76 (Eno project) A note on "accidents" my first time I almost saw them Nouveau [sic] Metal Re: The 'White Album" KC sighting Re: King Crimson double album and stuff Intro--Old Crimhead King Crimson discussion list in portuguese Tool and Crimson Comparisons - STOP IT!!! Album Titles, dyslexia, etc. GIG REVIEW: Eugene GIG REVIEW: One lonely fan. Sees a Great Show! GIG REVIEW: KC/Tool Hult Center, Eugene, OR 5 Aug 2001 ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 12:27:48 -0400 From: "Darin Lemieux" Subject: Hendrix and ELP Hendrix and ELP, eh? interesting indeed. I haven't heard much of ELP's stuff, but with Hendrix and his star power aboard that progressive vessel, I'm sure HELP would have been the supergroup for sure. For Prog fans, there is one Hendrix tune I think you'd all love. While most of his stuff was blues-based, he did do much studio experimentation, and, IMHO, if given time we would have heard much more sonic explorations from him - especially if he had teamed with ELP. For a glimpse into Jimi's more progressive side, check out the song "1983 (a merman I should turn to be)". Now, mistakenly, in all of the CD re-releases of the Electric Ladyland album, 1983 is split to its coda ("Moon Turn The Tides... gently, gently away") about 7 minutes too soon. IE. the song is divided in two. So, check out both of those to get the full effect of the song. If you get the original, full length version, it's run time will be approx 13:40, and the coda approximately 1:10. The re-release split version runs 5:48 for 1983 and 8:53 for the Coda. Darin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 12:20:00 -0700 From: "Rik Wilson" Subject: RobertFripp and Bill Nelson actually playing together I am amazed that no one recalls the David Sylvian album,GONE TO EARTH.On this release both Fripp and Nelson play on various pieces together. In an unrelated KC matter, I received a copy of the 12th and porter Nashville show, the 14th.... what a masterpiece.This boot is exceptionally good and balanced sound.It came to me via Atlanta to Houston.And I still feel that I got one of FRIPP'S PICKS at 12th and porter (Adrian gave it to me)-- I'm sorry John Sikes feels differently.It was on Fripp's stool-the holy grail of plastic-even if it is not THE PICK,it was sat on by Fripp,at the very least.So close enough for rock and roll! Adrian gave me some of his picks,too.Equally treasured plastic icons of furious endeavor.THANKS for a great stint at Nashville and for taking the time to stop and talk to a life long devoted fan...I think Robert Fripp calls me the "GRAY MATURE FAN" or "gmf ". p. s. after seeing KC in Atlanta,April 1974 ( the outside temperature fell from 89 before the show to 24 degrees at shows end.I lived in South Carolina then and the drive home and temp change caused my health to decline quickly.Double pnuemonia,and a collapsed lung and copious Black Congolese set me back---three days later SABB was released and it nursed me back to health. thanks,Rik Wilson(Houston) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 19:14:21 -0400 From: "Jon Woodworth" Subject: geezers I think that an implicit component of Jeff's definition of GEEZER is someone who would 'wax nostalgic about their favorite bands' and 'tap their feet' at a KC show. While there is no reason to conclude that you fit in this catagory, your rash defensiveness makes it seem likely. I observed many of the same things as Jeff at the 3 KC shows I attended last fall. I didn't hear any shouts for Starless, but I did catch bits and pieces of nostalgic conversations whenever the music wasn't loud enough to drown them out. It was actually kind of amusing because it reminded me of that George Carlin bit about having a conversation at a party and you keep trying to talk over the music and the the music stops and YOU'RE STILL SHOUTING. But it was also rude and distracting. And 100% of these conversations were between people above the age of forty (or very 'mature' looking 30-somethings). Also, most of the drinking was done by the older audients. In some cases they seemed less able to control themselves than their younger counterparts. I believe this is the type of rudeness to which Jeff was referring, not that armour stuff you were talking about (and if you want to get into it, the younger generation's lack of respect shown to people in your age group is in many cases well deserved). I did not witness any such behavior from the younger portion of the crowd (of course there weren't very many of them, so this entire point may be moot). Anyway, I don't know why I'm bothering to post this. It's just that I've been a lurker for so long, and felt it was time to add to the hostility. Peace, Jon Some GEEZER wrote: I guess I need to know what "he" defines as "middle-aged" or being a "GEEZER" is?, none the less I shall respond as if "I" fit his catagory. Living in St. Louis, but speaking ONLY for this GEEZER & his contemoraries(and "possibly" for most of the Northern Hemisphere?)it has been OUR observations that "if" us middle-aged GEEZER'S act "more rudely" than the younger generation(whatever his definition of that "group" may be?)he speaks "for", I do believe our "rudeness" only stems from an armour "we" have equipped ourselves with for the protection from the lack of "manners"..respect...& general behaviour "I" have found the "younger generation"(whatever his parameters of that term be)-(children from 6 to 60..."my parameters")shown to people of my age & possibly any! I realize my opinion may be myopic and pertain to only a certain % of "younger" people, but how myopic is his general veiwpoint of us GEEZERS? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 18:41:03 -0500 From: Tom Bolstad Subject: Re: fripp and hendrix? Maybe... how about hendrix and elp >I had heard that Hendrix >was going to join up with ELP, and had planned to but >didn't due to his newfound deceased state. The version of this story that I read said we had ELP instead of HELP because Emerson did not want a guitarist in the band. The same magazine article went on to say that, with the formation of ELP coinciding with the first 'breakup' of KC, Fripp also had been interested in joining ELP. In a sense, it's probably best for us all that Emerson kept it a trio: Fripp might never have learned that periods of non-existence and an ever-changing lineup is the way KC works, and anyway there'd've been no cool acronym to use. FELP? LEPF? EPFL? PFLE (piffle?) Hardly as cool as HELP. Long-time lurker, first-time poster. ET is the oldest active bookmark in my browser. Thanks for a great resource, Toby et al! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 14:04:37 -0400 From: "Bob & Joelle" Subject: bootleg crimson I am new to this newsletter, so forgive me if this has already been discussed to death. I purchased a bootleg at my local music store of Crimson live in Germany, 1973. However, the first two tracks; "I Keep Under Strees" and "Lark's Tongues in Aspik" are not the 1973 Crimson line-up, but rather Belew Crimson (date of recording unknown). Then the cd reverts back to 1973 line-up on track 3 and continues with "Train to Health", "We'll Let You Know", "The Night Watch", "Easy Money", and "Cat Food". I found this mixing of line-ups very strange to say the least. Also, I have never heard the songs "Indiscipline" titled as "I keep Myself Under Stress" or "Doctor Diamond" called "Train to Health". Anyone have any input as to this strange set-up? The cd was put out by Rarities & Few Records, Milano, Italy and is dated 1998. Thanks, Bob Bennett bennyb at i2k dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 19:55:35 -0500 From: "Andrew Krein" Subject: MFSL ItCotCK LP I've had the MFSL version of the In the Court of the Crimson King LP for several years and since I rarely listen to LPs any more, I've decided to put it up for sale. Rather than go the ebay route yet, I like to offer it up to Elephant Talkers first. It's in very good condition and the jacket only has a very little scuffing from several moves over the years. I'll entertain reasonable offers. Contact me at: akrein62 at hotmail dot com Thanks, Andy Krein ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 05:47:15 EDT From: DAV1DBOW1E at aol dot com Subject: Harmonia 76 (Eno project) hello all... a couple months ago i mentioned i was selling an eno-related cd called harmonia 76...the guy who was supposed to buy it disappeared, so i wanted to let you all know it is still available. please email me at BEWLAYBR0S at aol dot com if interested. the disc is on the ryko label and is in excellent condition. i will part with it for 8 US dollars, or best offer. thanks. -jason ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 21:30:33 EDT From: JohnWylam at aol dot com Subject: A note on "accidents" Hi, ET'ers -- To begin with, a quote from Bill Bruford with which you'll all be familiar: "An unfortunate side-effect of most arrangements is to ensure that accidents don't happen. The beauty of collective improvisation is that accidents will happen." Joe Bizarre mentioned a moment during a KC performance in WPB, and while it's clear that some anomaly took place, "hand-cramp" or whichever, it provides a cause to mention that in general terms this is the risk of live performance, both for performer and audience. By the way, I want to recommend to you Philip Auslander's book *Liveness* as a fascinating study of the intersection between live and studio recordings. Joe's posting, of course, refers to what he notes as a "mistake," which could also be considered as a potential opportunity. I wasn't at that show (wish I had been, and thanks to Joe for the report), but have to wonder what resulted. A personal memory: I saw KC at Curtis Hixon Hall in Tampa in '74 (official KC documentation incorrectly spells the name of the venue -- trust me, this one's accurate), and during "Easy Money," John Wetton sang a single verse of "In the Court...." An amazing scene, actually -- Fripp shot him a devastatingly frigid Michael Corleone-esque glance that ended that experiment, quite sadly (I'd seen ELP a few months before in the same space, and at the conclusion of "Battlefield," Greg Lake sang the refrain of "Epitath," which shocked the Hall speechless, I guarantee). Wetton also flubbed a bass line during the concluding section of "Starless," a more obvious error from which it was impossible in practical terms for the band to benefit. Such things happen, for better and worse. Joe's comment threads in a different direction from what I'm about to say, but he led me to dovetail this idea, if I may: The beauty of the music we love is that there's a potentially beautiful/exciting/at least engaging risk of creative chance. Part of what I loathe about mainstream music is that there is absolutely, manifestly no risk at all -- just play the music note for note and you'll be fine, the audience will love you, etc., etc. I've always loved KC best (in whatever incarnation) when risk was most in play; I trust musicians of this calibre to create something out of error, circumstance, and this is one of the reasons I continue to love KC. Joe reminds us all that our attendance represents an ongoing opportunity to witness these possibilities, for better and for worse. It's one thing to go to a concert and watch the equivalent of musical automatons plying their trade, but another altogether to watch/listen to a group that understands the risks and rewards of playing in this milieu. I'd far rather the result be a mess, an accident, than a slick, carefully-produced approximation of a studio recording. As Auslander suggests, that's what's already happened. The performance ought to be something more, or at least different in substantive ways. Does this sound at all familiar? Again, my thanks to Joe for reviving my thinking on this subject. John Wylam ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 23:58:46 EDT From: Milhouse60 at aol dot com Subject: my first time I almost saw them I bought a ticket for a King Crimson 7/25 show at one of my favorite venues, the Variety Playhouse in the hippie haven of Atlanta, Little 5. I was familiar with their current material and almost all the previous for that matter and I consider myself a huge fan. I'm 18 and most of my pals don't even know of the band...but I found a ride the day of the show with a bud who didn't have a ticket yet. To put a short story short, the show was sold out and me, bud, and about ten others were gathered by the ticket booth while one of us would shoot hopeless requests to the ticketeer sporting our denial and emptiness. Eventually, I scalp my ticket (sorry you other 9...first-come-first-serve and I don't play favors) because I didn't want to stroll in without my friend...we ended up seeing a local jam band at the Brandy House ... despite bud suggesting I go and see KC without him. Well, whoever it was that got my ticket, I hope you enjoyed the show and to the rest of you ETers, can someone please post a gig review of the Atlanta show? And to King Crimson, COME BACK TO GEORGIA and try the Roxy Theatre for a intamite venue. Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 05:42:25 From: "Spear man" Subject: Nouveau [sic] Metal >(For what it's worth, "Nouveau Metal" doesn't do it for me either, working on the generalisation that songs or albums with French in the title are crap..... unless they're from France of course.....)< hmm, perhaps you could revisit the notion upon discovering that it's 'nuovo' metal--not french, rather italian, I believe. --spearman ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 22:04:01 From: "Michel Champagne" Subject: Re: The 'White Album" "Brown, Ken" writes: >I also thought the White Album was white only here in the States, were the >prudish record company objected to naked photos of John and Yoko on the >cover (and I'm not saying it's a bad thing to ban pictures of them naked). >Was it released that way in the rest of the world? You're confusing the 'White Album' with John and Yoko's "Unfinished Music Number 1: Two Virgins" which did, in fact, feature John and Yoko in their birthday suits on the cover. It was an Apple release proper: Capitol declined to distribute it in the states, and a distribution deal was signed with Tetragrammaton. Not sure if EMI distributed it in the rest of the world where they had dibs on such rights. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 10:04:28 -0400 From: Martin Bradburn Subject: KC sighting Dear ETers - Just a quick sighting. This months Guitar Player has a cool add featuring the Bobster and Ade for Fernandes and the article on Dean Deleo from STP mentions KC twice as a STP influence and favorite band. Martin G. Bradburn 'We know others to the extent we know ourselves' - Guitar Craft Aphorism ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 22:33:42 -0700 From: Skysaw Subject: Re: King Crimson double album and stuff Alright, just to put the baby to bed, my friend went to buy the Hendrix Blues CD and promptly heard the twang of Hank Williams Jr. on some MCA Greatest Country Hits record. We went back to the store and tried about 5 different CD's before hearing Jimi. On a KC/Tool note, I'm going to the Wiltern on the 14th in LA. I'm sitting way up in the corner of the balcony, but I'll be there attentively and enthusiastically cheering on the boys as a faithful audient. ;) Maybe I'll enlighten some Tool folk about KC as well, this being my 3rd Tool show (and 6th KC show). I miss Robert's diary. The brackets that should show the last diary entry date sit empty and lonely on my PDA. Props to Dan for the Handspring Visor ET/DGM action, though! Matthew Mahler (distantly related to Gustav the Groover) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 14:13:03 0100 From: "Aluric" Subject: Intro--Old Crimhead Hi all! I heard ITCOTCK in '69 when it came out. That same year--amid the San Francisco Psychedelic Sound explosion--I heard Yes, Pink Floyd, and other bands that would one day be called Progressive--we called it Art Rock, and didn't snicker. In the early 70's, KC put out the Unholy Trilogy--Lark's Tongues, Starless and Red. I was living with a mad record collector at the time (he later did a radio show called 'Dr. Progresso') and heard these, and a buncha buncha other stuff at the time. I had about 200 lps that I'd kill for now--they were stolen in 1975. So, let me veer, and post a list a things I'd love to hear again: McDonald and Giles Refugee--(1 lp) ex Nice bass & drummer with Patrick Moraz. PFM--Incredible Italian band.'The World Became the World' 'Photos of Ghosts' Seventh Wave--3 man electronic--very lyrical. Kevin Ayers--'Bananamour' '...Dr, Dream'. Brilliantly twisted. Tangerine Dream--'Phaedra' & 'Rubycon' Brian Eno--'Here Come the Warm Jets', 'Another Green World' Gryphon Matching Mole Hatfield and the North 'Diamond Head'--Manzanera, Eno, Robt. Wyatt, Wetton, etc etc Family Just a few...;) Write me offlist if you've got any of these gems you could burn me a disc of: Enjoying the list, tho I have to admit I'm one of those old fogeys that kind of 'lost the beat' after Red. I like Discipline and TOAPP, but after that...mostly, it doesn't appeal. No offense. I recognize it for the brilliant work it is, but it's mostly not my style. Other oldie Crimheads out there...I'm having trouble laying my hands on a LTIA cd. Was it ever released in cd format? later, Aluric ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 15:01:38 -0300 From: "Paulo H Leocadio UOL" Subject: King Crimson discussion list in portuguese Greetings! I'm seeing many posts from Brazilians and other portuguese spoken Crim-heads lately on ET. Please join us on our own King Crimson community: http://www.egroups.com/group/kingcrimson The discussions are pretty good and we can make'em hotter increasing the number of subscribers. Cheers! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 09:18:20 -0400 From: "Entrup, Richard" Subject: Tool and Crimson Comparisons - STOP IT!!! OK, THAT'S ENOUGH!! I don't know about all of you, but I've really had enough of these posts comparing KC and Tool. I've been listening to KC for well over 25 years and consider myself a serious fan. I've also enjoyed Tool's work since their Undertow album and always thought that they were technically above many of the other grunge/teen angst rock bands of the 90's. Anemia was a great album and I was also very excited when the latest Tool project was released, also well done, HOWEVER....... To compare Tool to Crimson (any line up) is like attempting to compare Nirvana to the Beatles. If I see one more Tool fan post something about "Time Signatures" , I think I will scream. To All Tool Fans: They're a great band and I think Maynard is the Peter Gabriel of the new millennium, costumes and all, but please pick yourself up a copy of KC's USA (Live) or download it and listen to "Asbury Park" very carefully, then tell us what you think about comparing Tool to KC technically. It's a different realm folks. Please don't attempt to compare. Just enjoy each band for what they have to offer and go on with life. RE ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 14:08:54 +0100 From: Peter Clinch

Subject: Album Titles, dyslexia, etc. Various posters in recent ETs have suggested various points concerning "Nouveau Metal" as a title, but when I click on the KC link at the DGM website, the title that pops up is "nuovo metal"... Pete. -- Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p dot j dot clinch at dundee dot ac dot uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 23:13:45 -0700 From: Jeree Anderson Subject: GIG REVIEW: Eugene The show was awesome once we got in. The Hult Center really *ucked up. We have been to many shows there and never did we have happen what did tonight. If Crimson wonders why the audience was sparse particularly at first, I have the answer. We were standing in line for a half hour finally my husband Chris went over to a sound guy who appeared near the line and said, hey we are here to see King Crimson tell them not to start yet there is a block of people not seated here, It was 7 :36pm. He said they are already playing, follow me, we and a few other people followed him at a dead run to the other side of the building only to find that there was NO I say NO waiting line. The line we were in was a block long. Why the hell didn't someone from the Hult Center (which is all windows, so it must have been evident) send half the line to the other side? We even had a union employee say they wondered if we know King Crimson was playing as we stood out there...The audacity,,,,I am sure we payed $50 bucks a piece to stand in a frickin' line. Then when we mentioned to the guy frisking us that there was a block of people on the other side of the building he said "Glad I'm not working that side of the building". REAL classy. Anyway we missed several songs much to our dismay, think it was the new stuff. However the part we experienced was awesome, (even though they didn't have the sound turned up loud enough). The band was tight, Pat was breaking sticks like a madman, Robert was hiding in the shadows but playing masterfully, Adrian was energized jumping and smiling near the end, very in sync the entire performance, love that guitar head bending (a trademark) and Trey was well Trey,as always a pleasure to watch perform. He truly makes it look like it takes no effort. He obviously LOVES to play.... WOW......!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The music played by Tool was so simple to begin with that it was shadowed by the true musicianship and accomplished work of Crimson.....Thankyou King Members !!!!!!!!!!! We were blessed with your presence.....Wish we could have seen more but feel lucky to have gotten to see YOU, in person craft your art !!!!!!!!! All I can say is come back to Eugene...PLEASE....Want to see the entire act next time...and we want it to be the MAIN EVENT.... We just didn't get enough of Crim..... Maybe by that time we will have the Hult figuring out how to take tickets. Hey what I can I say.....I'm a Dinosaur........ A fan from the beginning, Jeree Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 00:53:42 -0700 From: Chris Anderson Subject: GIG REVIEW: One lonely fan. Sees a Great Show! All: i ain't lonely no more! Wow, twenty minuets before show time we walked down to the place of business only to find a fair amount of DUCATS at face value! Ha! Jeepers! We are GOING TO THE SHOW! We go to the Show, late as the communication (("Elephant (type of) Talk")) was, a bit off, with the venue provider. We missed the first song and one half or 2 & 1/2 of NOW Crim. Lotz-O-Light. What a show we saw! Came in on, "Deception of the Thrush" (unshure) but we saw "Lark's Four" oh man, what a fine piece of music this is! Jeepers baby! Lotz-O-Light. Ade is amplified and suave. Trey is fluid and true. Pat is the hardest working man on the planet! He never miss and always adding a new crinkle in the fabric! These boys are on fire! Robert is on! Look out world! Robert is on! See this show, well worth the dollar! "Frame By Frame", "Red", Instrumental: "Oyster" as well as great renditions of "In To Frying Pan & Thela Hun Ginjeet"! And More! christopher anderson eugene oregon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 17:26:38 +0000 From: "Danny Anderson" Subject: GIG REVIEW: KC/Tool Hult Center, Eugene, OR 5 Aug 2001 Set list: The ConstruKction Of Light Criel Into The Frying Pan Lark's Tongues In Aspic part IV Deception Of The Thrush Elephant Talk Thela Hun Ginjeet Red Personal observations: TCoL - Great start to the set. The interaction between Trey and Pat, especially on the "off accents," was great. Criel - Wonderfully oppressive. This is "It's 2:00 AM and time for the guests to go home" music. Into The Frying Pan - nothing to say LTiA 4 - strong Deceptioin Of The Thrush - I haven't liked any of the recorded versions of this. Live, however, there is a magnificance which doesn't translate to disc. Elephant Talk & Thela Hun Ginjeet - WAY out of place with the rest of the band's material. Comparatively very lighweight. Red - This is another tune I wish they'd shelve (Fallen Angel or One More Red Nightmare I could see this band doing), however, they hammered it and it actually fit with the neuevo metal approach this KC takes. Overall, great sounding venue, very clean band sound, glad I went. Personal bitches: t-shirts started at $30, set way too short (yes, i DO know that they were the undercard), Tool was the headliner. They sounded like shit and I walked after the first "song(?)." ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #867 ********************************