Reply-To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Discipline #86 Discipline, Number 86 Saturday, 10 April 1993 Today's Topics: Re: Ian McDonald yeah, Wetton deserves his $, but it's still a shame A Disappointing Exchange Crimson - my first time... Ian MacDonald A Wetton Correction/Killer Bass Line Bruford & Sting Recent Fripp Sighting [in a crowd] String Quartet Bill Bruford's Earthworks J.G.Bennett lineages. Reunion news! Reviews: Haskell, Cross, CGT The Scoop -- Rolling Stone Fripp article [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Hi team. Apologies for the late delivery of this issue of Discipline. I've been out of the country on business for a week. As you'll in this issue we have some 'rather interesting' reunion news, as we reserved British would say. :-) --- Toby [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 26 Mar 93 11:11:03 PST From: I heard the voice of a pork chop. 26-Mar-1993 1405 Subject: Re: Ian McDonald >So does anyone know what happened to Ian MacDonald? After leaving Crimson he formed a band with Micheal Giles called (surprise) McDonald and Giles. They did one nice LP which is reminiscent of Crimson's mellower moments. He was set to rejoin Fripp and Co. during the recording of "Red" but then Bobby busted up the band and that was that. Soon afterwards he moved to NYC and hooked up with Mick Jones and Lou Gramm, the three of them founding Foreigner. After three LPs, he left over differences with Jones. Apparently Ian was getting less interested in keys and sax and more interested in guitar (he played all with Foreigner), and Jones wanted him to remain as the "utility" player. Ian founded a band called Danger Street which featured himself on guitar, but I have never seen a recording from them. That's the last I heard of him. Brian Rost rost at tecrus dot enet dot dec dot com 508-568-6115 DEC, Hudson, MA ******************************************************************************* "Very bad when drums stop!" ******************************************************************************* [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 26 Mar 93 13:50:33 CST From: oskardma at ukraine dot corp dot mot dot com Subject: yeah, Wetton deserves his $, but it's still a shame Chris King writes: I think a few of you Crimheads who constantly criticize John Wetton and Asia ought to reconsider. Here's a good player who's gotta make a living. He has minor fame with Family, Crimson, Uriah Heep, Roxy Music, UK. He hits the big time with Asia and probably finally made the million he deserves for all the good music he's given us. Yeah it's corporate rock, but it's the best of its kind, makes the pretty girls warm, and yes ... yes ... I think "Solitary Man" is as eminently hummable as "Book of Saturdays". my reply: Yes, I agree that JW deserves every penny he makes, but it's just such a shame that a guy with such talent has to prostrate himself before the industry gods in order to make a comfortable living (OK, maybe a rich living). Then again, he's making music while I sit here in this cubicle all day long :-) On the other hand, if people like us don't criticize BIG industry and bands like Asia (who maybe do have a couple of decent songs, but I'll never hear them--OK call me a snob!), then the world will eventually no longer be a safe place to hear *real* music. Of course, this is not really the case, because what seems to be happening in the US right now is the emergence of the "alternative rock" genre as a viable commercial form of music, thanks to people like you who, though few in numbers, have spent large sums of money buying "good" music over the years. This in turn has pried open the doors of BIG corporate music just enough to let some exciting and fresh music come through with some of the promotion and airplay it deserves. So the question is: what function does this "corporate rock" serve? I guess some people like it huh? I'll get off my soapbox now... see ya, david [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 13:52:11 -0800 From: rpeck at pure dot com (Ray Peck) Subject: A Disappointing Exchange Someone asked about The Great Deceiver on one of the rec.music newsgroups recently. I responded that it's great, etc., etc. I just got the following mail quoting my post, and sent the following following reply. I hope nobody grants this guy his "favor". . . From: sk0m at Lehigh dot EDU (SYED KIRMANI) To: rpeck at pure dot com Subject: King Crimson!!! Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 14:10:21 EST >So has anyone broken down and bought the 5 (is it 4?) CD set of live >Crimson from 73-74? Is it worth the $60-some odd dollars that is costs? It's 4 disks, most over 72 minutes. Has several complete concerts. The sound is fantastic and the music is better. It contains over two hours of never-before-released improvs. If you like Larks Tongues in Aspic and Red, you should definately pick up this set. It is great, great, great. Far, far better than the available boots from this period. I paid $48, I think. Bought it the first day it was out. Can't wait for the 80's live box. . . the recordings I have from this period are pretty poor (except the 2 videos, of course). Hi there! I am a fan of King Crimson, but I don't have the live set from 73-74, since I can't afford it. Could you do me a favor, i.e if I send you blank tapes, could you record them for me! I will be very grateful. Please respond by e-mail, and could you tell me how many tapes to send? I will pay the postage, but if you want to charge for service, I am willing to do that too. Thanks Syed >From rpeck Fri Mar 26 13:47:19 1993 PST To: sk0m at Lehigh dot EDU (SYED KIRMANI) In-reply-to: <199303261910 dot AA102990 at ns3 dot CC dot Lehigh dot EDU> Subject: King Crimson!!! SYED KIRMANI writes: > Hi there! > I am a fan of King Crimson, but I don't have the live set from > 73-74, since I can't afford it. Could you do me a favor, i.e if I > send you blank tapes, could you record them for me! Absolutely not. Fripp well deserves all the money you spend on this set, and I shan't take it from him. Save your pennies, and give the guy the business he deserves: he is by no means a rich man. I don't have a problem taping bootlegs or out-of-print records, but I won't take food from this man's mouth. I am shocked and disappointed that you sent me this mail. . . [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 17:09:14 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Stok Subject: Crimson - my first time... Back in '82 or '83 when I was at Durham University (in the UK) I had the fortune to meet a drummer who managed to broaden my horizons from just Genesis & solo members' projects (+1 Bonzo Dog Band tape and an Abba tape ;-) onto King Crimson by *repeatedly* taking off whatever I was playing and putting on Discipline, saying that I'd like it eventually and the Bill Bruford played on Seconds Out so it was related to Genesis... It took a few weeks to get comfortable with Discipline, and I'm now quite sad that I never saw the Discipline era Crimson live, having seen Tony Levin, Robert Fripp and Bill Bruford separately several times since. Crimson & Bruford in particular have broadened my musical outlook (and inspired quite a heavy investment in percussive toys) Mike -- The "usual disclaimers" apply. | Meiko Mike Stok | Reservoir Place mike at meiko dot com | 1601 Trapelo Road Meiko tel: (617) 890 7676 | Waltham, MA 02154 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 26 Mar 93 18:25 PST From: ken%wet at netcom dot com (kenneth stuart) Subject: Ian MacDonald Hello, Ian MacDonald is just scraping by as a nobody.....no, that's not right, he is one of the major figures in "Foreigner" (the rock band), so he is not starving :-) . Well, I already have the following from the Holdsworth discography: the 2 Ponty albums, "Believe It", all the UK, and all the Bruford. How do any of these compare to this best work? Ken PS mentioning one song from each of four solo albums isn't helpful -- unless he is really inconsistent :-) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 26 Mar 93 22:40:00 PDT From: c_king at emulex dot com Subject: A Wetton Correction/Killer Bass Line Rob Preston caught my error in Discipline #85. I mentioned the eminently hummable Asia song, "Solitary Man"; I should have said "The Smile Has Left Your Eyes". Sorry, Rob. Got your note and lost your address. Try me again? I compared the hummability of "Smile Has Left Your Eyes" to "Book of Saturday" It made me think of a question I want to ask Discipline readers: Don't you think, in your heart of hearts, that the bass line--the sometimes castigated John Wetton's bass line--to "Book of Saturday" is the best line in the entire Crimson catalog? Okay, okay. We'll give special mention to "Elephant Talk" as the best funk line, but I mean overall bass line. Don't get me wrong now. I loved "Starless" at one time in my life, but can anyone explain to me the value of that meandering 13/4 tick-tock, Fripp's-bored, break after the vocal section? Eric Tamm made that song out to be the best KC ever did, but really, does anyone like it after the 7th listen? The final section sounds too much like a hokey, cliche, bang-boom-kapow movie soundtrack. [However, on one of the live versions (I think it's on Deceiver) David Cross did the best solo of his life. For once he was on fire.] Pretty melody though. It'd make a nice acoustic number, maybe. Discipline #whatever is great fun. Thanks, Toby. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 27 Mar 1993 15:06:40 -0500 From: MOONLIT KNIGHT Subject: Re: Bruford & Sting It might be nice if they worked together one day, especially since Sting has one way or another found his way into the network of connections and collaborations that as Crimheads we know so well. As such Sting is one of the only people Bruford *hasn't* played with. But I wouldn't look for it -- they're both pretty set in their ways. As for Earthworks, he said in an interview last summer -- Anil's interview that is -- that he would tour Europe in early '93 and the US in spring. I am pretty sure he did tour Europe, and the live album, called Stomping Ground (I believe) is set for an April 20 US release (finally). Hopefully he will tour behind it. Jeff [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: gtaylor%vme dot heurikon dot com%heurikon dot UUCP at cs dot wisc dot edu (Gregory Taylor) Subject: Recent Fripp Sighting [in a crowd] Date: Tue, 30 Mar 93 16:47:55 CST Someone who subscribes to this list recommended that I mention this disc to the King Crimson mailing list. Seems only proper. Keep your eyes peeled for this. The Robert Fripp String Quintet "Kan-On Power" [Japanese. No label] Robert Fripp, Bert Lams, Paul Richards, Hedeyo Moriya: Guitar Trey Gunn: Chapman Stick Soundscape 8:45 Yamanashi Blues 2:27 Melrose Avenue 2:31 Kan-on Power 3:35 Firescape 10:34 An Easy Way 2:24 Moving Force 1:56 Asturias 2:58 Walk Don't Run 2:07 Chromatic Fantasy 1:42 Contrapunctus 2:22 Eye of the Needle 3:03 Blockhead 4:01 Hope 5.26 Urbanscape 14:58 Pipeline 2:04 Kan-on Power 3:24 Recorded live at TFM hall (Tokyo? Who knows?) 11/11/92 Warning: Japanese bootleg [given the dollar/yen, caveat emptor]. Don't know how this one was recorded, and don't much care. The sound is positively exquisite, the Japanese crowd extremely well behaved. Sound board, maybe, but there's enough ambient noise and the sound is "wet" enough that it might be a stealth job. The quintet, as the listings suggest, romp their way through some of the classic Crafty repertoire, and a couple of funny guitar covers. The interesting work is the point at which Fripp's signature looping techniques and lead work is added to the mix - the techniques dominate on the longer cuts, but also are judiciously added for work like "The Moving Force", where Fripp's guitar replaces the classical overdubs on the Crafty CD. Very nice work, and an outstanding live recording. This is probably a pretty believable look at the upcoming quartet tours in Yurrup. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: cs64sbt at sdcc8 dot UCSD dot EDU (Paolo Valladolid) Subject: String Quartet Date: Wed, 31 Mar 93 12:33:26 PST This is for the Discipline reader who emailed me about his GR700: Sorry for the delay! I've finally found my manual. If you have any specific questions, please email me. Also, in Korg ProView, Robert Fripp said that his String Quintet is made up of the California Guitar Trio plus Stick plus himself on electric guitar. He also mentioned King Crimson waiting for Tony Levin to finish his obligation with Peter Gabriel as well as a new line of 7-string guitars he's working on with a Japanese company. He also said that he will be teaching Guitar Craft in Germany and some other European country. Paolo pvallado at sdcc13 dot ucsd dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 30 Mar 93 22:12:19 -0600 From: John R. Nash Subject: Bill Bruford's Earthworks The live album, "Stamping Ground," is due out April 20. Finally.... From what I've heard, the band is pretty incredible live, so it should be interesting! -john nash nash at chem dot wisc dot edu (this information passed on from the standard list posted to USENET) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Subject: J.G.Bennett lineages. Date: Tue, 6 Apr 93 17:38:08 PDT From: oedipus at cruzio dot santa-cruz dot ca dot us (Edsarr) Homage to my gracious teachers Sogyal Rinpoche, and Devi Ki Rose. Regarding information on J. G. Bennett... (I am not J. G. Bennett now, nor have I ever been J. G. Bennett, so this is all at best second hand information.) In all seriousness, I have never actually practiced or worked in their tradition, though I've read several very inspirational books, so my perspective may be skewed by my Buddhist/Dzogchen practice. Bennett was a disciple of Gurdjieff. Gurdjieff was at the tail end of the great turn of the century 'spiritualism' movement of the 1890's to 1920's. Popularized in the beggining by Madame Blavatsky's books, eastern europe discovered mysticism in a big way. Or maybe re-discovered is a better way to describe this movement of european intelligensia. Gurdjieff was one of a group of spiritual explorers who 'searched the world for the miraculous.' (see 'Meetings With Remarkable Men') Ouspensky (a Russian like Gurdjieff) was at first a disciple, later splitting from Gurdjieff to teach his own groups. What they taught was a synthesis of Sufism/Buddhism/Tantra (maybe Hinduism/Toaism) that was stripped of old cultural associations, and modified somewhat for the cultural baggage of the 'western' scientific mind. Still seems to have maintained many traditional aspects such as teacher/student relationship, meditation and awareness training (the foundation of Fripp's Guitarcraft seminars), physical movement work, etc. Bennett was an Englishman gentleman mystic in the Gurdjieff lineage. Fripp is an Englishman musician mystic in the Bennett lineage (or was anyway). Fripp was president of The Claremont Center (or some name like that) in West Virginia for a few years in the late 1980's. Claremont is a Bennett community that exists on the land that once belonged to the American author who wrote 'The Lady or the Tiger.' The material that Fripp presented in his mid-80's solo lecture/concert tours was quite traditional Gurdjieff/Ouspensky concepts. Though probably self- classified as 'Fourth Way' (read the Ouspensky book of the same name) material, I find that it mainly emphasises mind as the path. Similar perhaps to the Gelugpa (yellow hat, or new-school) sect of Tibetan Buddhism which is headed by the Dalai Lama. Mind as path, as opposed to body or emotion/devotion as the path. Not to say there is overt dogma. Look for phrases "Fourth Way" or "The Work." (as in, 'If you know you have an unpleasant nature, and dislike people, this is no obstacle to Work') The book 'Transformation' by J. G. Bennett is an excellent introduction to the mystic path for westerners. Most new age or spiritual bookstores will have a whole section devoted to Gurdjieff/Ouspensky/Bennett. Truth is one, paths are many. May all be auspicious for effortless awakening, apples alight on the bough. Hum. -Eduar -- Rev.Dr.Oedipus P. Wienushausen # The only constant is change; oedipus at cruzio dot santa-cruz dot ca dot us # enjoy the illusory dance. # Love is the nature of universe. Poised on the brink: Utopia/Oblivion # >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 7 Apr 93 10:32:02 PDT From: John dot McCartney at EBay dot Sun dot COM ( The Lion of Symmetry ) Subject: Reunion news! In the latest issue of Rolling Stone (4/29, #655), there's a full page article about the upcoming Crimson reformation (pg 20). Here's the cold hard facts according to Bob... Band: Fripp/Belew/Levin/Marotta/Gunn Recording: an 'introductory' EP to be cut in August, with an album later this year. Tour: in '94 Fripp says, based on rehersals - "Crimson, harder and rockier than you've ever heard." Also to look for, the new David Sylvain album featuring Fripp/Marotta/Gunn, with as Fripp says "a bedrock of very rocking Crimsonesque stuff." Fripp has also been working with Eno on a new album due this fall, and has some amusing things to say about Eno... scorch [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1993 19:51:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Patrick Arnold Subject: Reviews: Haskell, Cross, CGT Recently I went to Japan and found several new CD releases that Crimso fans may appreciate. While I am no expert on the solo careers of these folks (much less their current status), I will belabor only what little I know, for those who don't. I'd appreciate comments from those who can offer more information. Although these recordings were found in Japan, two CDs have labels with US or UK addresses. Gordon Haskell released a new solo CD, Hambledon Hill, on Voiceprint Records. Musicians include Paul Beavis on drums and percussion (Summers-Fripp, Toyah, Sunday All Over the World...), and Chris Winter on brass reeds (Summers-Fripp...) among others, and is engineered and produced by Tony Arnold. It sounds like Roy Harper Meets Indigo Girls. The music is very well written and well performed, folksy and quaint. I am suprised that the quality of the music is high, a very enjoyable CD. I highly recommend it. Voiceprint Voiceprint PO Box 5 PO Box 32827 Stanley Kansas City CO. Durham Missouri DH9 7HR MO64111 England USA David Cross released a new solo CD, The Big Picture, on Music Galore Ltd., distributed by Red Hot Records (UK) and Canyon Interational (Japan). This band is, I believe, the same as with his previous Memos from Purgatory, a 1990 release (?). It is engineered and produced by Tony Arnold. It sounds like a straight rock band without a guitar. The Big Picture sounds much improved from Memos, owing in part to a shift towards better musicianship and better recording. While more than half of the music is tedious, a few tracks near the end of the CD are very dynamic. It sounds as if David re-listened to the King Crimson Great Deceiver boxed set and became inspired to play dissonance and complex time signatures once again. Several of the tracks include some very warped, distorted electric violin sounds rivaling the most obnoxious synthesizer sounds available. I don't recommend it very highly, unless you are a die hard fan who needs at least one David Cross in your collection. Red Hot Records 29 Beethoven Street London W10 4LG England The California Guitar Trio packaged its acoustic guitar sound in Yamanashi Blues, on Discipline Records (the same label as the KC Great Deceiver boxed set), distributed in Japan by Canyon International (check for Caroline in the US?). The CGT consists of Bert Lams, Paul Richards and Hideyo Moriya, all ex-Crafty Guitarists and the CD is self-produced. They recently have been touring as part of Robert Fripp's String Quartet. The music consists of one part classical music, one part surf, hawaiian and 40's jazz, and one part Craft original compositions, creating a very interesting blend of diversity. The last track, Kan-non Power, consists of a wall of amplified acoustic guitars playing over subdued Frippertronics (Fripp is only credited as executive producer, however), probably adapted from Quintet performances. If you know about the CGT's first CD sold at their earlier shows, this CD contains all of that music, re-recorded by CGT and re-mastered by Tony Arnold, plus two extra surf/hawaiian tunes, and two new and incredibly good compositions including the title track, and Kan-non Power. I highly recommend it. - Brian [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 08 Apr 1993 19:37:36 -0500 From: MOONLIT KNIGHT Subject: The Scoop -- Rolling Stone Fripp article Rolling Stone devotes a whole page of text (with only one new picture of Robert and a small one of the 73/4 group with Fripp at the piano) to Fripp and the reformation of Crimson without copping an attitude. As a matter of act it's almost too peachy, but I'll take it, I'll take it. Who will be in King Crimson in 93/4? Belew, Fripp, Gunn, Levin, and Marotta. What is their schedule? "An introductory EP will be cut in August (Levin is locked into a Peter Gabriel tour until then), with an album later this year and shows in '94." Second question is: does this lineup make sense? I'm sure Gunn is a wonderful player and all, but the 81/4 band already had three guitarists, effectively. Maybe this is why he calls the new sound "Crimson, harder and rockier than you've ever heard." Can you imagine two guitars and two Sticks doing these interlocking patterns? The article is short on talk of the '80s group and has high praise for the 73/4 band and for The Great Deceiver. The article implies that Vernon Reid mentioned how much he liked that song and that's why the set was so named. The article doesn't have anything to say about upcoming 69-71 or 81-84 live sets. Fripp talks about how the '69 band, though it began with its best playing, probably sounds "dated in a way The GReat Deceiver doesn't. There you hear a band looking for the *moment*, and it's in the moment that it works. Some of the time is negligent; there are bad notes. But as a part of the overall, it doesn't matter." Fripp was "more chatty and amiable" than the scrapbooks might suggest. He has been busy -- gtr craft, Sunday All Over the World, shit with EG. Fripp, Marotta, Gunn, and Slyvian singing over "a bedrock of very rocking Crimsonesque stuff" (RF). Fripp has also cut an album due in the fall with Eno, which is "Fripp and Eno with a dance beat. You have to remember that the last time I worked with Eno, mastering a barre chord on guitar was considered an act of virtuosity for him. Twenty years later, the carrot can actually play things! Eno was actually strapping on a Fender bass and rocking out. The keyboards still have things marked on them, KEYS TO HIT and so on. But the boy is up and *bopping*." I just realized that I got lost in my typing above -- that thing with Marotta, Gunn, and Slyvian is an album that they've finished, no word on when it comes out. There is also talk of timing here -- Fripp feels it's "time" for new Crimson, i.e. the music is in control, etc. Well, it's been time for about a year and a half since he announced this thing, but I'm not complaining. It's great to hear Robert talking so much about rocking, etc. A hearty apology to David Fricke whose RS655 article has hereby been gutted by me. Jeff [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] To join this mailing list or have your thoughts in the next issue, please send electronic mail to Toby Howard at the following address: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk The Discipline archives are available on ftp.uwp.edu, in /pub/music/lists/discipline. The views expressed in Discipline are those of the individual authors only.