Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #840 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 840 Saturday, 19 May 2001 Today's Topics: In defense of Larry Lalonde, Tool are depressing KC Tour Remasters of 80's Crim MOVIE re: Cobain-Wetton..I hear it too? Kicking and screaming Tool/Crimson June Nashville Crim-Warm-Ups Room Sharing Matte Kudasai Re: Still more gamelan chit-chat to all of you with Tool /Krimson misgivings.. Chance of RF ever playing in Russia The sound of Discipline Cobain, Tool, King Crimson and stuff Jeff Beck - Trey Gunn comparisons tool/kc commonality...lest ye be judged Re: The V-Drum alternative re: New Tool and connections re: TOOL/CRIM "Poster To Poster" Apology...(NOT). Scullers/movie ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 11:21:41 +0100 From: "C McG" Subject: In defense of Larry Lalonde, Tool are depressing >Les is pretty good on bass, but Ler, I'm sorry, he needs to woodshed for a >long while. Les is pretty good on bass. No shit! That's like saying Mozart could write a decent tune. As for 'Ler [Larry Lalonde, Primus guitarist] ..he needs to woodshed for a long while' I am assuming you are not a musician from this statement. I play guitar and IMO Larry Lalonde is a fantastic, innovative guitar player. I am not a huge Primus fan so I'm not just sycophantically defending him. You're suggesting his technical ability is lacking and I think you're confusing technical ability with your own subjective taste - maybe you just don't like what he plays. As for 'not being creative with noise' - two words 'Hamburger Train' - a very ProjeKct sounding instrumental from the early 90's where Ler plays hardly a noticeable note and yet he is ever present in the hypnotic mix - quite reminiscent of Belew's knob-twiddling solo in Sheltering Sky. I read once that Ler studied with Satriani and he quipped that it was very useful because it showed him what notes _not_ to play. The guy is a maverick, a Zappaphile and a rare talent. By 'woodshed' I think you mean 'conform' - we have enough Berkeley clones in this industry and I'll choose Ler's playful musings over a tapped 32-note arpeggio any day. Fans of Belew's solos who are not familiar with Larry Lalonde should pick up a Primus album - 'Sailing the Seas of Cheese' or 'Pork Soda' should do the trick. I feel purged. Almost. And another thing... Tool are not negative or depressing. They are cathartic much like Crimson. The very darkest moments of Crimson also contain rare beauty - the same is true of Tool. Sometimes you need a primal scream and Maynard [Tool's vocalist] makes Munch's protagonist in 'The Scream' look like Whistler's Mother. A case in point - compare Peter Hammill's 'Energy Vampires' with Tool's 'Hooker with a Penis'. Both songs contain the same theme - fans of the artist sucking that artist's energy and being negative, as Fripp would say 'not moving on'. The theme is reprised briefly in ProzaKc Blues of course about this often unforgiving organ. The Tool track is full of profanity and rage but makes the point better than the erudite and intellectual and equally brilliant pH track IMO. A catharsis is good for the body and soul which is why I love LTIA era KC improvs, ThrakAttak, Neurotica, Schizoid Man, Cage. It is also why I love Aenima, Undertow, Opiate. I don't feel depressed after 'A Voyage to the Centre of the Cosmos' and I certainly don't feel depressed after 'Eulogy'. I often feel depressed after reading ill-informed comments on Elephant Talk. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 1956 01:24:42 +0000 From: Curtis Martens Subject: KC Tour I think King Crimson opening for Tool makes about as much sense as opening for Rusted Root and Blues Traveller on the Horde Festival. There are several artists recording on DGM that would benefit from an opening slot on a KC tour. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 17:23:34 EDT From: AlfredDodson at aol dot com Subject: Remasters of 80's Crim I just got my 3 CD's of Remastered King Crimson 80's. They are superb. extra tracks on Discipline and Three Of A Perfect Pair are an audio treasure. Beautiful Job in remastering and packaging. aKd ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 05:13:11 -0400 From: spanky50 at impop dot bellatlantic dot net Subject: MOVIE Staring; Joe Pecsi as Bob Fripp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 13:55:53 -0400 From: ibizabar at mindspring dot com Subject: re: Cobain-Wetton..I hear it too? On May 15, Bob Pascarella wrote: >There is a Nirvana song in which Kurt does similate a John Wetton style >vocal during the verse. >What the hell is that song anyway? > >"I'm so happy..'cause today I found my friends...in my head.." The song in question is called "Lithium", off of 1991's Nevermind. Great song btw! Brian K. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 13:08:48 -0500 From: "Chris 'Coz' Costello" Subject: Kicking and screaming First off, I have a hunch that Fripp's motivations for the Tool dates are threefold. He gets to play in front of a new audience, he gets to play with a band that he likes and that likes him, and perhaps most importantly, he's got an automatic filter for the people who say things like "Tool should open up for *them*." He may have found his way to keep the basement dwellers in the basement, lest they be dragged into the present. As for moshing, very rarely do alt-rock crowds mosh for opening acts, unless they (the band) encourage it. It may be that the Crim fans will be able to get up close for the opening, so they can request all their favorites from 1969, then retreat during the break. On the other hand, Tool is hot enough that their fans may be jockeying for position early. What I'm wondering about is the lack of control over conditions. This isn't unprecedented for them (think HORDE tour), but there are going to be a *lot* of people not giving the band their full attention in the room, and considering how senstive Fripp is to that, I'm curious to see how he responds. Later, COZ -- Chris 'Coz' Costello :: coz at enteract dot com Signal to Noise :: http://www.enteract.com/~coz/ URT :: http://www.urt.net/ "Hipness is transient. You have to change in order to be continually hip." -- Vinnie Colaiuta ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 13:13:31 -0500 From: "Jim MacGregor" Subject: Tool/Crimson [Unknown MIME type or encoding (text/html), contents not processed] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 14:26:01 -0400 From: "Scott Greenbaum" Subject: June Nashville Crim-Warm-Ups Room Sharing Hello people, I'm looking for 2-3 level-headed, fun, intelligent Krim-heads to share hotel space 6/14 > 17th in Nashville. I've got a Days Inn room 4 blocks from 12th and Porter @ $110/night. Drop me a line and let's talk. Thanks. Scott Greenbaum Scott at Greenbaum dot com day - 954.763.1500 evening - 954.763.3553 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 14:46:33 -0400 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: Matte Kudasai I have an online buddy who swears that the "alternate version" of Matte Kudasai on the recently-remastered Discipline is actually the original version that first appeared on the lp; and, that the Matte Kudasai that is claimed to be the original was in fact originally released on the Compact King Crimson collection. Is he right? If yes, is this old news? ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2001 15:21:54 -0400 From: Dan Schmidt Subject: Re: Still more gamelan chit-chat While we're on the subject, I recently wrote a gamelan piece, "A Dangerous Thing", which, while it doesn't directly reference any King Crimson songs, has some aspects in common with some of Fripp's work. It was performed at the Bang On A Can Marathon at the Brooklyn Academy Music last December and was broadcast on WNYC, from whose archives you can still hear it in RealAudio format: Go to and listen to program #1864, around 14 minutes in. -- http://www.dfan.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:34:25 EDT From: Belewp at cs dot com Subject: to all of you with Tool /Krimson misgivings.. All of you who have misgivings about the Tool/Krimson concert should just calm down. Let's wait and see how everything goes before slagging young Tool fans off as just mindless metal consumers. After all the hell most Tool fans are going through just to get live tickets I'd assume that they are real enthusiastic music fans who would love to pay tribute to one of Tool's most influential bands. But I really don't want to assume too much in this matter, just waiting to see what happens will suffice. It's time to get off your imaginary throne and give Tool and thier fans a little credit. Another thing...it may be time for you wussies to get lasik surgery and start pumping some lead so us King Crimson fans can rule the moshpit :) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 00:43:46 +0400 From: Erik DePoy Subject: Chance of RF ever playing in Russia Dennis Adamchuk wrote: >and one more little question >When Robert will come in Russia with gig? The chances of RF appearing in Russia (St. Pete, Moscow) are much higher than those of KC ever playing here. First, most bands tour in promotion of recently-released CDs, but pirates control at least 95% of the Russian market. As a result, most bands have (understandably) little financial interest in playing here in Moscow. Second, Russia has unfortunately built up a reputation as an unhospitable location for touring bands. In light of recent customs and mafia incidents, it's no surprise that few bands ever risk crossing the border. With the notable exception of the local music scene (which is excellent), Moscow is starving for quality musical acts. With that said, it would be much easier for RF to perform in St. Petersburg or Moscow in a solo context. As I recall, in his diary a while back he mentioned that he was invited to perform in St. Petersburg (via Brian Eno), but that eventually he was forced to decline. In the meantime, I still hold out hope of a Soundscapes performance here in Moscow or St. Petersburg (ROBERT- THERE'S A LARGE FAN BASE HERE IN RUSSIA!). I'm sure it will happen eventually... E. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 16:46:11 -0400 From: Don Cooper Subject: The sound of Discipline budlet wrote in ET #838 > Got the remastered Discipline. > The highs wer glassy, and the bass lacked any kind of > substance at all. These are well-known features of early digital recordings, > so I alwsy suspected that Discipline was one of these tragedies I believe that Discipline was recorded on an analog 24 track machine using 2" tape. Don Cooper http://www.cooperaudio.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 17:36:30 -0400 From: "Peter Shindler" Subject: Cobain, Tool, King Crimson and stuff - Kurt Cobain was indeed a big Crimson fan, going so far as to name "Red" as one of his favorite albums. For my part, I get a very strong Crimson vibe off the song "Breed" (from Nevermind), with its "Talking Drum"-esque bass line and an insane noise-guitar solo that bears a strong resemblance to "The Sailor's Tale". - Tool's audience, at least when I saw them on Lollapalooza 97, seemed to consist mostly of morose teenagers wearing black clothing who moped around looking unhappy. The moshers and crowd-surfers ("body surfing" being something you do at the beach when the waves are high and you don't have a surfboard) left after Korn's set, which had come earlier, was finished. - Favorite Crimson goof: Early in the "Threnody for Souls in Torment" (off "The Bridge Between" by the RF String Quintet), either he or Trey Gunn closes a loop a little bit too abruptly, causing a little static Pop every time the loop repeats (every 20 seconds). It's clearly audible for a few minutes before being obscured by more layers. While it's not exactly a blunder, it is an interesting detail that reveals some of the inner workings of the Soundscaping hardware. - Ozzy rulz Peter RIP Douglas Adams (so long, and thanks for all the fish) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 22:22:45 -0000 From: "Danny Anderson" Subject: Jeff Beck - Trey Gunn comparisons C'mon guys, you can't compare Jeff Beck to Trey Gunn. Trey is much taller. Hey, I made just as much sense as everyone else who has made a comment on this subject. Cool. Dan PS - I think RF would secretly like to body surf the crowd just once...at least in his dreams. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 23:20:38 From: "Spear man" Subject: tool/kc commonality...lest ye be judged Ok, well lemme see... one thing KC and Tool have in common is that TOOL's drummer Danny Carey isn't too keen on V-drums, he claims they basically lack feel--i.e. sound the same wherever you strike the pad, so he's sticking to his time-laggy old school electronic drums for now. He also criticises another e-drum product for the same thing (brand escapes me at the moment/don't have june's modern drumming issue in front of me here at work to quote from). Or maybe I've confused KC with Bill Bruford (former Crim)--who's giving away his yellow KC drum kit, btw--see June issue of Modern Drummer, too for contest rules. Although I suspect there's more to the story than a simple case of Bruford not wanting to play electronic drums as the reason he's not in KC now.... Perhaps the major one being money. He makes plenty of cash off Earthworks gigs--more so than KC gigs. --T ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 16:42:06 -0700 From: Paul Strong Subject: Re: The V-Drum alternative Hi Folks, I wouldn't presume to speak for Pat, but as a fellow V-Drummer and also an acoustic drummer, in a not too unlike Crim band strangely enough ;o), I feel that I should at least contribute my thoughts on the subject. > Lurking on "Elephant Talk", speaking with friends, and having kept an ear > open to what people were saying at King Crimson's London concert last > summer, it seems that the issue of "V-Drum or not V-Drum" is dominated by > one central complaint. While most people have a lot of respect for Pat's > drumming (whether or not they want Bill back), most of them feel that the > *sound* of the V-Drums is inadequate for a band of Crimson's expressiveness. > Cruel words like "1980's Casio presets", "cardboard boxes" and "utterly > sterile" were doing the rounds as we gathered outside the venue. Although I really, *really*, don't want to sound like a piece of Roland marketing literature I am personally very impressed the the V-drum range of sounds (over 1000, many of which are almost infinitely variable, if you include the TDW-1 expansion card) and although there are many drum sounds which could be easily equated with some older pre-sets, there exist many, that I for one find hard to distinguish from a very good recording of a real drum kit. These offer great variety in the sounds/tones that can be produced, such that you really can't tell the difference. These, together with the nature of the pads mean that I can produce results, both in terms of sound quality and variation, as a consequence of playing style/technique/ineptness that would take a long time to achieve in a studio. The warmth and variation is not always there for every drum sound but can usually be produced if desired, in my opinion. In Pat's case, he also triggers a number of other units, including a D-Drum 3 or it may be a 4 now, plus a sampler, wave drum etc., plus many effects. So he has an extraordinary palette to draw from. Not just the V-Drums. He also uses an acoustic snare and bass drum, plus some bronze bits :o) So it may be better to centre the discussion around electronic drumming in general. I must admit that I still have a preference for the real cymbals, an area in which I think the electronic kit has generally failed to deliver in the manner I personally would like, and in due course I would like to use my own snare with a trigger. When rehearsing at home, I feel my neighbours would not really appreciate this ;o), so I have refrained from doing so for now, but I would hope to do so for live work. > So here's my hypothesis. The central problem regarding King Crimson's use of > V-Drums has never been which player's behind the kit, but the way that the > technology is used. Or, to put it more bluntly, when Pat's been left > entirely to his own demented devices (notably P3, P4, the improvs on the > "ConstruKCtion Of Light" tour") the V-Drumming has sounded great. On those > occasions, you can hear Pat pushing the technology, introducing newer > musical forms to Crimson music ("drum'n'bass" in particular) and, most > importantly, taking advantage of the V-Drums' artificiality. In this > context, the synthetic nature of V-Drumming isn't a problem. On the other > hand, whenever Pat is forced (by circumstances and/or composition) to play > the Crimsonic version of a rock beat - or to provide a drumkit counterpoint > to an extensive chunk of Frippian structure - the artificiality of the > V-Drum sounds are brought into sharp and irritating relief. In these > circumstances we start missing the warmth and involvement acoustic drum > heads bring to "math rock" riffs and equations. Again, my take as a drummer who likes to explore a bit, is that maybe Pat want's it to sound that way. I think that it is a matter of taste as to how one delivers rhythm sometimes, and the sounds that one uses. I have used some of the artifical, more noisey sounds myself and find them interesting and fun. As I have said I do find that the non drum percussion sounds can lack the variation of tone, attack and decay which are characteristic of genuine slabs of metal. This can become a frustration and make them irritating if they are used too often. This is of course merely another challenge to be addressed by the performer. > Bill had some intangible but effective way of getting round this problem > with his Simmons drums in the '80s: somehow the same doesn't seem to be true > of Pat, however good his drumming is (and I currently rate him as the most > useful and interesting member of Crimson). > > One possible way solution would be to take a deeper leap into electronic > drumming - dispensing with the synthetic imitations/emulations of acoustic > drum sounds altogether, and replacing them with much odder samples and > effects. Again I could be wrong but I think Pat already does this with his Dr Sampler etc. As a final comment. I don't want to sound like a marketeer for Roland, nor am I passing comment on the appropriateness or otherwise of Pat's particular choice of sounds, but in the end, in a performance there is the hope that the performer uses the palette of sounds at their disposal to deliver the effects that they want, and that this is to some degree in line with the listener's tastes. This does not always work out for everyone I guess. I find it hard to believe that Pat does not get the sounds that he, and presumably the rest of the Crims, want from his, more than extensive, collection of toys. I think he goes to extraordinary lengths in fact, to ensure they are as intended. Just my thoughts. Paul ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 21:49:35 -0500 From: "Grant Colburn" Subject: re: New Tool and connections Matt D. Wrote: "I was lucky enough to pick up the new TOOL disc on Friday before its official release date. After listening to all this talk about a connection between TOOL's and KC's music I would have to say there really isn't one." I don't know if you've listened closely enough then. There definitely are many places where there is a distinct 80's Crimson gamalan thing happening. Its just very loud and nasty! Especially in the parts where there aren't power chords. They also make use of different players playing in different beats at the same time. "TOOL is all about using only power chords where as KC obviously isn't." Again, they don't ONLY use power chords. Its definitely a different band with a different sound. That said, where else would you say these metric ideas come from? "Lateralus, is great but if you haven't listened to this band in the past, don't begin to think they are anything like KIng Crimson, because they arenot." Yes, that's very true. They are no more Crimson than Primus is, but the fact remains that there is definitely a BIG influence on their patterns and grooves. But yeah, don't just go out and buy Tool thinking its like Crimson. Its metal to the extreme and very tribal. I think its ironic that Fripp has said on several occasions how much he likes Tool, yet bands like Anekdoten (who really do sound like Crimson) don't get commentary. Also worth noting is how Tool's drummer would probably be a dream for Fripp to play with. This guy has taken Fripp's preferred avoidance of cymbals to a new extreme. Its amazing how clear the music can be without cymbals constantly cluttering the sound space. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 22:01:33 -0500 From: "Grant Colburn" Subject: re: TOOL/CRIM Andrew D'Amour wrote: "My enthusiasm for the fans of Tool is less than overwhelming; as an ex-hardcore freak ive been in more than my share of pits over the years; andI dont think the Venal One will last one song on the tour. If he cant stand the mild-mannered antics of his own fans how can he consider the screaming/slamming/gobbing/drunk and opiated crew Tool is likely to draw? This is just my opinion (as I have learned to avoid putting possible Fripp thoughts through my mouth), but something tells me Fripp will PREFER the wild screaming/slamming/gobbing/drunk Tool crowd to his own usual crowd. At least most won't be there to suck off of him personally like Crim crowds surely do. I just hope they line up their heaviest nastiest tunes (and hopefully some new heavy nasty songs) and PULVERIZE that Tool crowd! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 22:50:22 -0500 (CDT) From: Wilsovox at webtv dot net (RiK/Elaine Wilson) Subject: "Poster To Poster" Apology...(NOT). Hello & Continued Salutations to All Fellow E.T. Readers and Posters.... I will apologize at this time for a mistake I made as to the sexuality of another poster in the discussion of Trey Gunn & Jeff Beck's (non-existent) similarities. To Josette Caruso(E.T.#834 & #839),my apology for that Typo error of "Mr.Caruso",as I should have read closer at the Name,"Josette". I stand (and sit) Corrected. As to whether anyone can compare Jeff Beck & Trey Gunn,Hell No, you can't.It's Like comparing the GENIUS of The British Greats,Page,Clapton,BECK, Townshend,Gilmour,Fripp,the list goes on,to a first year Guitar student,or the average Joe playing Mabel's Bar & Grill.Jeff Beck is a Damn Legend, Trey Gunn is a Professional.Bottom Line. End Of Story.Over and Out.Thank You. I Love You All, RiK Wilson,Dinosaur FM-Radio Guy. The Outrider-//:<>://-Flames Of Albion//Succubus-LiQuid MerCury Productions,LLC. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 03:06:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Jon Woodworth Subject: Scullers/movie Hi all, I just had a couple of quick questions about Scullers in Boston, where Earthworks is supposedly playing on May 29. I'm too lazy to do the actual research, so I figured I'd ask the kind folks at ET. First, do you need to get tickets in advance (and if so, where or how)? And where exactly is this place? I've been to Boston a few times, and I'm moderately familiar with the area, but I've never heard of this particular venue. Any help is appreciated. Please reply privately. -Jon P.S. For the Crim movie, how about a young Sir Anthony Hopkins as Fripp? And I think John Stamos would make a good John Wetton. Just kidding. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #840 ********************************