Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #838 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 838 Friday, 18 May 2001 Today's Topics: GIG BIZ: Crim shows!!!!!!! ConneKction Page The V-Drum alternative New Tool disc and connections The sound of Discipline obtaining tix Re. Printing Error with Discipline 24-bit? Re: Birdsongs Of the Mesozoic TOOL/CRIM Re: RF on moshing and body surfing In a constant state of development the comparison to Tool and AOL/Heavy Const. Tool and KC UK Live - Concert Classiics Cobain-Wetton..I hear it too? Re: Commonality ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 23:52:25 -0400 From: Dave Subject: GIG BIZ: Crim shows!!!!!!! ConneKction Page Hey crew... Now that tix are on sale for Nashville, I guess we're gearing up!! Here's another reminder that the Krimson ConneKctions Page is up and waiting for hits. Feel free to drop a line there to hook up with other KCrimsos going to shows that want to swap, buy/sell or share the extra hotel room/tickets that you have or need, or just to meet up! I know I did.. http://www.midnightmecca.com/crim/fsguest.html And Krim ConneKctions has a whole new look to it. If ya haven't visited in a while, check it out. Thanx, Dave ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 10:08:36 +0100 From: "D. Chinn" Subject: The V-Drum alternative Now that Pat's apparently playing (some) acoustic drums again, it might be a little late to raise this topic, but what the hell... Lurking on "Elephant Talk", speaking with friends, and having kept an ear open to what people were saying at King Crimson's London concert last summer, it seems that the issue of "V-Drum or not V-Drum" is dominated by one central complaint. While most people have a lot of respect for Pat's drumming (whether or not they want Bill back), most of them feel that the *sound* of the V-Drums is inadequate for a band of Crimson's expressiveness. Cruel words like "1980's Casio presets", "cardboard boxes" and "utterly sterile" were doing the rounds as we gathered outside the venue. So here's my hypothesis. The central problem regarding King Crimson's use of V-Drums has never been which player's behind the kit, but the way that the technology is used. Or, to put it more bluntly, when Pat's been left entirely to his own demented devices (notably P3, P4, the improvs on the "ConstruKCtion Of Light" tour") the V-Drumming has sounded great. On those occasions, you can hear Pat pushing the technology, introducing newer musical forms to Crimson music ("drum'n'bass" in particular) and, most importantly, taking advantage of the V-Drums' artificiality. In this context, the synthetic nature of V-Drumming isn't a problem. On the other hand, whenever Pat is forced (by circumstances and/or composition) to play the Crimsonic version of a rock beat - or to provide a drumkit counterpoint to an extensive chunk of Frippian structure - the artificiality of the V-Drum sounds are brought into sharp and irritating relief. In these circumstances we start missing the warmth and involvement acoustic drum heads bring to "math rock" riffs and equations. Bill had some intangible but effective way of getting round this problem with his Simmons drums in the '80s: somehow the same doesn't seem to be true of Pat, however good his drumming is (and I currently rate him as the most useful and interesting member of Crimson). One possible way solution would be to take a deeper leap into electronic drumming - dispensing with the synthetic imitations/emulations of acoustic drum sounds altogether, and replacing them with much odder samples and effects. I can name at least one band who've done this - the late Disco Inferno, who followed a tricky path along the edge of British indie-rock and experimental music during the early '90s and gradually wired their "rock power-trio" instrumentation up to more and more sampler technology. The result was something between melancholy indie and musique-concrete with a quite dazzling sonic effect. When guitars, bass and drums are triggering samples of feet crunching in snow, fireworks, bells, glass sounds, engines, industrial whistles and so forth, but are also integrating them directly into emotive song arrangements, a whole new set of possibilities open up. You can find out more about Disco Inferno's difficult but musically rewarding career at http://discoinferno.cjb.net/, or by tracking down some of their later recordings (such as "D.I. Go Pop" and "Technicolour") . I'm sure that whatever Pat and the band come up with for the forthcoming Tool tour and the new album will be good - I'm just hoping that it's a lot better than the TCOL drum sounds... Dann ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 15:39:47 From: "Matt D" Subject: New Tool disc and connections I was lucky enough to pick up the new TOOL disc on Friday before its official release date. After listening to all this talk about a connection between TOOL's and KC's music I would have to say there really isn't one. TOOL is all about using only power chords where as KC obviously isn't. TOOL's vocalist screams where Adrian obviously doesn't. The only connection i see is that TOOL and KC used the same engineer, David Botrill, and both have amazing drummers who use eletronic drums. Both bands also use odd-meters alot, but so do lots of other bands. The new TOOL album, Lateralus, is great but if you haven't listened to this band in the past, don't begin to think they are anything like KIng Crimson, because they are not. *********************************************************** Matt Deibert Drummer Check out Spacestation Integration MP3's www.ampcast.com/ssi *********************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 11:48:50 -0400 From: "budlet" Subject: The sound of Discipline Got the remastered Discipline. First thing I did was slap it into my CD-transport and queue up the tune Discipline. This has alsways been one of my favorite Crimson pieces, but I was always disgusted with the quality of the recording and master as it has existed to this day. The highs wer glassy, and the bass lacked any kind of substance at all. These are well-known features of early digital recordings, so I alwsy suspected that Discipline was one of these tragedies (Glen Gould's later Goldberg variations is another such digital tragedy). So with remastering and HDCD, I was very hopeful that the excellent performance that had been so unworthily captured had now been given its due. And the verdict? With HDCD-capability, my Levinson/Thiel/McComrack rig revealed a very siginificant improvement. Although it ain't "Night Watch" (one of my favs in terms of sound quality), you can now hear Levin actually play. The drums now emit from distinct points in space, and there's a lot more detail. And despite the fact I can hear HDCD artifacts in Belew's voice, I love HDCD. Given this, I plan to buy the other 80s discs. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 21:45:24 EDT From: Roosterbrawl at aol dot com Subject: obtaining tix Hi everyone, I share all of your feelings regarding possible disturbances at future KC/Tool concerts. I really don't want a bunch of metal-crazies ruining my KC experience. I'm 18 and love metal shows. I hate moshing and crowd-surfing. Frankly, I'm shocked that Fripp would tour with band with such a rowdy fanbase, given his adamance in playing for perfectly-behaved audiences. But if this tour opens up KC to more in my age-bracket, i think that is great. However, I am worried about getting tickets to see one of these shows. I would have liked to see Tool play next week in NYC. I heard this show got sold-out in 8 seconds. I wasn't so surprised. I think maybe some of us should be aware that Tool is very popular, and there are many more Tool fans than Crim-heads who will jump at the chance of seeing this amazing concert. Just my two-cents. I want to add that I listened to the Larks' studio album a few days ago with headphones and don't think i have ever been more moved by a piece of music. Of course I've never seen that band play live, still I'd argue with the belief that Crim's studio releases could never equal their live performaces. I never realized how produced this album is, what with so many wild, insane sound-effects. There is truly nothing like KC in this world. Happy listening/concert-going, Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 11:01:37 +0100 From: "Keith Burns" Subject: Re. Printing Error with Discipline 24-bit? Iain Robertson said in ET 834: >the knot on the accompanying booklet appears to be misprinted. Or is it >just mine which has the knot as all black, rather than as silver with a >black border? Mine is the same: a fuzzy all-black knot. Somehow doen't look right. I should point out that I have a UK Virgin copy like Iain. Maybe the US copies are different? Keith. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 13:45:55 -0400 From: Martin Bradburn Subject: Re: Birdsongs Of the Mesozoic I have to echo Michael Kelly's comment about Birdsongs Of the Mesozoic, their 20th anniversary show in Boston 2 weeks ago, was phenominal and I couldn't think of a better band to open for KC. Check out any of their Cunniform releases: Fossil Record, Fault Line, Pyroclastics, Dancing on Ah Ah or the new one "Petrophonics". They even have a song called "Why not Circulate", how crafty is that? -- Martin Bradburn 'We know others to the extent we know ourselves' - Guitar Craft Aphorism ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:31:10 -0400 From: "D'Amour, Andrew" Subject: TOOL/CRIM Hello All, I for one think its exciting that the Crims are electing to tour with a drastically differing band from themselves(but who isnt). However, my enthusiasm for the fans of Tool is less than overwhelming; as an ex-hardcore freak ive been in more than my share of pits over the years; and I dont think the Venal One will last one song on the tour. If he cant stand the mild-mannered antics of his own fans how can he consider the screaming/slamming/gobbing/drunk and opiated crew Tool is likely to draw? I for one would hate to miss the Crims, but if my only option is to deal with the Tools crowds, I'll pass. Andrew D'Amour ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:33:05 -0400 From: Dan Cooper Subject: Re: RF on moshing and body surfing In ET 835, Pascal Perusse wrote: "So does anyone know what is RF position regarding moshing and body surfing?" Since RF no longer performs with Peter Gabriel, I can only assume it was a result of PG's shocking tendency in earlier tours to fall backward into his audience during "Lay Your Hands On Me" and be passed through the crowd. This must be an abomination to RF! p.s. I don't think there's enough sarcasm in this group. Don't you agree? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 20:21:10 -0400 From: Victorino & Cheryl Andrade Subject: In a constant state of development I'm part of the pushing fifty crowd and have been out of the loop for a bit; between life, work and school. Caught Crimson at Berklee last November and have been doing TCOL and HC ever since. Became interested and hooked with TOOL's Undertow and have come to cherish aperfectcircle (they're a gem). Went by my stepson's this weekend to play with my grandson and he told me about this tour. At first I didn't believe him; now I'm anxious. Bowie tours with NIN and the result was EARTHLING. Oh...the possibilities... I wish you(s) the best...love&peace. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 23:05:33 -0400 From: "James J. Hannigan" Subject: the comparison to Tool and AOL/Heavy Const. Lest anyone lose perspective regarding Tool's darkness and bleak outlook, the guitarist Gary Lucas in a recent interview in Wire magazine characterized the current KC as sounding like "police-state fascist music." Of course he wasn't implying that they hold those views, just that the music is somewhat harsh and lacking in soft edges. Thanks to the many responses regarding my AOL problem with Heavy Construkction. I tried the suggestion of right clicking with shift on the file and changing "Open With" to IE and that worked. Brilliant. - Jim ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 09:50:00 -0400 From: Warren Melnick Subject: Tool and KC With all due respect to Toby and the others here: (1) Can anyone here who is into Tool recommend a CD or 2 to the list that KC fans might like to prepare any of us who would like to attend the upcoming concerts. I do not believe that this need be by personal email, as many of us intend to go and I am sure we wouls like to know what we will be hearing. (2) To assume that Tool would open for KC is to ignore reality. Tool is hot right now. They sell out mid-sized arenas in 10 minutes (at least here in NYC). They have many times the commercial viability of KC. To think that a promoter would have them open for KC and not the other way around is to ignore the realities of the industry. Let the flames begin! Regards, Warren ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 09:57:04 -0400 From: Randall dot Hammill at hartfordlife dot com Subject: UK Live - Concert Classiics TJ Mathews (tjm4 at mindspring dot com) wrote: Ok then. I have nine copies of UK Live (concert classics). I would rather not have so many and hopefully a handful here agree. They cost me just under $15 each. If you or ANYONE you know might be willing to pay cost + stamps to get one of these please contact me off list (usa only). Wow! 9 copies. And cheap, I usually see these selling for over $20.00 on eBay. You should sell them there... I already have a copy, but I'll have to pick one up for my friend. The early version of Caesar's Palace Blues really shows the differences between the Bruford/Holdsworth lineup of this band and the stripped-down power trio. For those of you who have not heard this CD, I recommend that you get your copy while you can... Thanks TJ (my friend will thank you to...) Randy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 13:41:37 -0400 From: Bob Pascarella Subject: Cobain-Wetton..I hear it too? There is a Nirvana song in which Kurt does similate a John Wetton style vocal during the verse. What the hell is that song anyway? "I'm so happy..'cause today I found my friends...in my head.." Bob P. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 13:52:01 -0400 From: "Christensen, Mark" Subject: Re: Commonality > People wonder why KC and TOOL would tour together. What do they have in common? > >I think it is simple. me too. David Botrill. m ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #838 ********************************