Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #827 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 827 Saturday, 14 April 2001 Today's Topics: Trey Gunn = Jeff Beck Re: David Torn EJ and Trey Gunn Gordon Haskell New CD John Wetton univers zero streaming video Univers Zero, Present Apologies to Dan, DGM and ETers Thanks, David King Crimson-Savoy Brown connection was Worthwhile Neo-Prog Now OT Re: Sounds Like? Further Bruford and Torn doings Re: Univers Zero, Present Univers Zero Re: KC Musical Suggestions? KC accepting musical suggestions? dear sirs ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 10:03:55 -0400 From: "Caruso, Josette" Subject: Trey Gunn = Jeff Beck Does anyone else hear the similarities? xoxoxoxo Josette ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 11:04:54 EDT From: SonicMarc at aol dot com Subject: Re: David Torn ET-ers, David Torn has a CD out called 'The David Torn Collection'. In addition to some of his solo work it has several songs that he performed on and/or produced such as Mick Karn, Andy Reinhart, etc. I do suggest that everyone buy 'Cloud About Mercury' or at least borrow a copy from someone who has it. Marc ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 10:49:42 -0500 From: Chris Cowan Subject: EJ and Trey Gunn I was asked earlier if Trey was playing with Alien Love Child, and I believe the answer is no. Alien Love Child has always had a fixed line-up and continues to have one to the best of my knowledge.. The line-up with Eric Johnson, Trey Gunn, and Jerry Marotta was called Vortexian. To the best of my knowledge they only played 5 or 6 gigs (strangely all shows were in and/or around Texas;). I saw the show in Austin, during the Spring of 2000, right before KC did the TKOL tour kickoff, in Tennessee. There's diary entries from Trey (go to his site or the DGM site) talking about the shows. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 17:51:05 -0000 From: "suzanne geach" Subject: Gordon Haskell New CD Hi I am writing about the new CD that is due for release by Gordon Haskell. I have been informed by a very good source that the CD is due for release in June but if you e-mail marketing at smltd dot net they will make sure that anyone who is interested gets a copy in advance and it will be personally signed by Gordon. They will e-mail back when it is available and then you choose to buy it at that time. The price will be advertised on their web site and it will be cheaper than the retail outlets and will be the same price worldwide. Also of course it has the bonus of being signed by Gordon Haskell. I have already put my name down and I can't wait. May you be blessed with many goats. Suzanne suzannegeach at hotmail dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 14:26:06 -0700 From: Jeff Williams Subject: John Wetton The discussion of Jon Wetton's demise inspired me to respond for the first time. I saw FAMILY perform live and was amazed by their powerful bass player which turned out to be John Wetton. The man's drive and talent may have declined over the years but he was, without a doubt, one of the two best/original bassists/vocalists in popular music. As someone stated earlier, Jack Bruce being the other. jeff williams ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 18:48:49 -0400 From: "vuzhmusic at autoreverse dot net" Subject: univers zero funny you should ask about them, i just dug out one of their tapes to play in the car... they were a lot more orchestral, and i think they actually had an orchestra (albeit a non traditional orchestra, like zappa's abnuceals emuukha electric symphony orchestra). i really don't know a whole lot about them, an old acquaintance dubbed some things of theirs for me, and i believe he said that they were among the very first bands to ever be tagged "gothic" !!! strange, considering that they surely wouldn't be called that today. if you like this stuff you ought to check out the Rachels. and for a closer correlation to king crimson, check out no safety, and nisi period. good stuff, all. the tape i have has pieces from the "crawling wind" ep and the "ceux du dehors" lp very nice, very nice. c. reider ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 00:45:12 +0100 From: "Woody" Subject: streaming video does anyone know of any sites where i can witness crimson related streaming video, i have seen the tony levin stuff, and was kinda hoping there is some more, the yes stuff at the house of blues is also great. cheers Woody @ Osmosis Productions pondering the unponderable, with pondering ponderality, in a preponderous ponderational ponder. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 07:02:49 +0700 From: "T. Ismail Reza" Subject: Univers Zero, Present Hello Brian, >Considering Univers Zero, Present and Roger Trigaux: AFAIK, they are Belgian. Roger Trigaux, the guitarist, are one of the founders of Univers Zero (with the percusionist Daniel Denis) until Trigaux decided that he want a different view and formed another band, Present. >"Le Poison Que Rend Fou" by Present and "Uzed" by Univers Zero--both found >on French vinyl in a used record store: Present: Well, you *should* obtained the CD version. Two of the Present album (their best albums, really) are re-released by Cuneiform in one CD set....."Triskaidekaphobie" and "Le Poison Que Rend Fou". IMHO an essential for Crimsonites; the composition of terror and madness. "COD Performances" are for the guitar enthusiats; a three guitar based composition on themes such as loneliness and hate. I also heard that their other album are good, but not surpassed the first two. These are "Present Live", "Certitudes", and "No.6". Univers Zero: Umm.. Roger Trigaux has left Univers Zero when they released UZED. The guitarist at that album was Michael Delory. At that time he was still an additional musician, but his playing was superb! I like the way he done the guitar part in "Celesta (for Chantal)"; for me its represent some kind of love song that would be fit in the mind of Hannibal Lecter.... Univers Zero are a very unique group. Every album worth hearing. You should investigate "Heresie"; one of their landmark. These are their last album with Roger Trigaux. Then you could move on to 1313, Ceux du Dehors, and Heatwave. Their latest album, "The Hard Quest" maybe should be the last one to investigate, still good, but not as powerful as its predecessors. You would not be dissapointed to spend your money on these guys!:-) Their CD are re-released by Cuneiform (UZ and Present) and Musea (Present;"COD Performances")... Happy Nightmare! Salam Sakral! Reza! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 18:59:00 -0500 From: "W. Stuart Kirkham" Subject: Apologies to Dan, DGM and ETers In a previous issue, I wrote: "The only problem is, the song is introduced as 'Never the Same Way Once' but it is actually 'Some Shiver, While he Cavorts.' Chalk up another one for the guys at Indiscipline Global Mobile...don't these guys actually listen to the..." To which Dan replied: "As a matter of fact they do. The video was sourced from a TV broadcast. The subtitles were put on by the TV station during the broadcast. DGM realized the subtitles were wrong, but they came with the pictures, and the artist still wanted this track to be used. Yet another situation where guilt is assumed, and innocence must be proven. I always thought it should be the other way around. But here that is> rarely the case." Dan is correct to criticize me. I apologize to Dan and all at DGM (as well as all in the ET community) for my mean-spirited, ill-considered remarks. The following describes the basis for my assumption: When I discovered the titling discrepancy, I first checked the liner notes for the video credits, and found that none existed. I also checked the contents of the CD, and the only thing resembling credits for the video was at the end of the README file, which said: (P)(C)DGM/BILL BRURFORD PRODUCTIONS 2001 and when the video is played in MediaPlayer, the following information appears: Clip: Bill Bruford's EARTHWORKS Author: DISCIPLINE GLOBAL MOBILE Copyright: [nothing stated in this slot] I made what I feel to be an honest attempt to find where the responsibility lay, and I laid the blame at DGM's feet because that was the only information I had to go by; no one else was claiming responsibility for the product. This is why I fingered DGM. It does not excuse my tone, or the insinuation that this mistake is characteristic of DGM as a company. Much to the contrary, I applaud DGM for its business ethics and quality of its catalog and hope that they continue to succeed as a company, despite the ravings of a--holes such as myself. Also, I hope that it is clear from my review that I consider "The Sound of Surprise" to be an excellent recording which is well worth a listen (or two or five or a hundred), and I am glad that the video clip was included (despite what I said), and that my comments do not unfairly bias anyone against it. Stu Kirkham ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 18:59:29 -0500 From: "W. Stuart Kirkham" Subject: Thanks, David In #824, David Vella writes: "In #823, W. Stuart Kirkham asks: > who came up with the phrase "Elephant Talk" anyway? My guess is that Adrian Belew's guitar came up with the suggestion. (Listen to the song of the the same title.) Sort of the obvious progression (can I use that word, Toby?) from the Rhino sounds on Ade's first solo album. -David Vella" Thank you for your reply. The question was rhetorical, however, so as to avoid Toby's editorial axe. ;-) Stu Kirkham ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 23:38:13 -0400 From: "D Stamper" Subject: King Crimson-Savoy Brown connection Is it just me or do the lyrics of the King Crimson song "Doctor Diamond" seem to fit with the cover art to the Savoy Brown album "Hellbound Train"? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 04:51:13 From: "Spear man" Subject: was Worthwhile Neo-Prog Now OT >"Tim Roache" If I had to recommend a short list of truly worthwhile Neo-Prog to the uninitiated, it would include the following; [snip] Ozric Tentacles-"Erpland"; Outstanding psychedelic fusion, probably the only OT album you need.< WRONG, I need them all (even the remix album floating seeds). Send me your extra Ozric Tentacles CDs--especially the Vitamin-Enhanced box set. --spearman np Sliding Gliding Worlds ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 11:29:00 +0100 From: "Waen Shepherd" Subject: Worthwhile Neo-Prog In ET826, Stephen P Goodman wrote: >The less formulaic or predictable a piece is to a listener, the more likely >that their interpretation of the piece will reflect what went on in the >listener's mind during it, as opposed to what the composer/performer had >intended Absolutely. Sometimes people can only really approach a piece of music in their own frame of reference - I think the same goes for films, books and so on - when seeking to understand something original, it's always at first understood by saying "That's a bit like such-and-such". And in many cases it's really obviously wrong, but then again, who's to say who's wrong and who isn't? For a piece of music to have a multitude of different effects on different listeners sounds like a good thing to me. But isn't this why King Crimson are so consistently great? Haven't you ever had one of those conversations that goes, "King Crimson - who are they?" And you go through the whole business of trying to explain to someone what they're like, knowing that every time you open your mouth, you're saying nothing that will either explain their music to someone who's never heard of them, or to do justice to what it is KC do. I mean, what do you say? Prog rock? Industrial jazz? The ultimate indie band? I just don't know. If you were trying to work in, say, an "average" person's frame of reference, I suppose you could just about get away with saying that Lizard sounds a bit like early Pink Floyd but with more trombones. Or maybe Red sounds like a thinking man's Black Sabbath. And perhaps ProjeKct Four is Roni Size with guitars? Already we've got three descriptions that couldn't possibly be the same band (and don't do any justice to KC either). And I can't even begin to know how to describe Discipline. But this to me is one of the things that sets them apart from any other band. It's not easy to put your finger on what it is they actually sound like anyway, never mind the fact that they've sounded completely different in every incarnation. I don't know any other band I could say the same of. So how would you describe what King Crimson sound like? I'd be interested to know what other people think. Waen Shepherd ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 14:12:21 +0100 From: Simon Calkin Subject: Re: Sounds Like? As several posters have mentioned,there are more Torn things out there that deserve investigation.In addition to the Polytown album,it's worth checking out an album called "Lonely Universe",a collaboration between Torn,Karn,Lambert and White (CMP label,about 1990). Also the dazzling pair of albums by Kazumi Watanabe,Spice Of Life and Spice Of Life Too,with Jeff Berlin on bass,Bill Bruford on drums and Peter Vettese on keyboards (these are from the late 80s).Incidentally,I've not seen any of Kazumi's albums around for a long time;anyone know what he's up to these days (private email only,please)? Going back to Torn/Karn,check out Karn's solo albums;they've nearly all got some exceptional work by David Torn on them.Jeez,imagine a Frip/Gunn/Torn album??????? Kind regards to all, ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:45:44 -0500 From: Gelino Ectoplasm Subject: Further Bruford and Torn doings Brian Pearson: > Hey, anyone heard much from these bands? Both are led by the same > French > guitarist (sorry I don't have his name handy) and are quite > Crimsonesque. > Obvious Fripp influence in the guitar work, but the guy has his own > original > slant on things and is not just an imitator. Only two albums I have > are "Le > Poison Que Rend Fou" by Present and "Uzed" by Univers Zero--both > found on > French vinyl in a used record store. > > TIA for any discographic info, or info on current availability. Belgians who play dark, dense, complex, wonderful stuff. Guitarist Roger Trigaux leads Present, but was only on the first couple of UZ albums. Present is more rock-oriented; UZ has more in common with chamber music. Evil chamber music. http://totalzoo.com is the offical site for both groups. Cuneiform http://cuneiformrecords.com/ has re-released most of the stuff by both bands (that's where I got mine). Solo stuff from drummer Daniel Denis, too. -Hogard ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 11:54:17 -0400 From: "DR" Subject: Re: Univers Zero, Present Brian Pearson inquires > Hey, anyone heard much from these bands? Both are led by the same French > guitarist (sorry I don't have his name handy) and are quite Crimsonesque. > Obvious Fripp influence in the guitar work, but the guy has his own > original > slant on things and is not just an imitator. Only two albums I have are > "Le > Poison Que Rend Fou" by Present and "Uzed" by Univers Zero--both found on > French vinyl in a used record store. > > TIA for any discographic info, or info on current availability. > You could try "The Hard Quest", UZ's latest release (1999). Style described by a friend of mine as "Medieval Doom". The leader is percussionist Daniel Denis. Available from Cuneiform Records, #Rune 120. DR ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 12:31:55 -0500 From: "Grant Colburn" Subject: Univers Zero I don't even begin to comprehend this post. Considering that KC has been around for over 30 years and their last "cover" was probably from 30 years ago (not counting a few Belew Beatles quotes), what reason would there be for KC to cover some unknown work by some unknown person? Are you somehow insinuating that the original work KC does somehow doesn't meet up to the standards of whatever these music files are you have heard? Are we sure these files aren't music that Nick wrote himself? I apologize for bothering to comment on this post but it just seemed TOO weird to let go by. What conceivable purpose would KC have to cover anything by anybody at this point? Nick Ciraulo wrote: >In my travels of music files (.mod ,s3m ,.xm , .it , etc.), I've come >across >many orignal compositions with pretty good arrangements or cleverly >presented. I figured maybe Fripp and company may consider >covering these >songs for future releases. >Of course they may Crimsonize these songs. Would these >sugestions be >accepted? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 21:43:03 -0400 From: "Peter Shindler" Subject: Re: KC Musical Suggestions? > Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 00:26:31 EDT > From: NCir213855 at aol dot com > Subject: Would the King of Crimson accept musical suggestion? > > In my travels of music files (.mod ,s3m ,.xm , .it , etc.), I've come across > many orignal compositions with pretty good arrangements or cleverly > presented. I figured maybe Fripp and company may consider covering these > songs for future releases. > Of course they may Crimsonize these songs. Would these sugestions be accepted? > > Nick Ciraulo Probably not. Say that Fripp & co. listened to your tape, then returned it to you, saying (in effect) "Thanks but no thanks." A year later, when their new album comes out, you notice that there's a section of one piece that's in Eb, and that there was a section on one of your pieces that was also in Eb. You call your lawyer, who sends a threatening letter to DGM/Virgin, hoping for a nice out-of-court settlement for stealing "your" material. This is obviously a ridiculous series of events, but it's a very real fear for the record companies. That's why, whenever you send a well-known musician your material, hoping that they'll want to record it, you'll get it back, unopened. At least, this is the story according to Billy Joel, who was asked a similiar question during a q&a session I saw several years back. If I recall correctly, he envisioned a sleazy lawyer talking to an impovershed musician: "Hey, Billy Joel's new single has the word 'the' in it, and the song that you mailed in to him last year had the word 'the' in it too! Let's sue him!" Knowing the music industry, it must have happened a bunch of times. Peter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 02:32:37 From: "Dale Hoyt" Subject: KC accepting musical suggestions? "bear" with, I'm still geting the hang of this. I'd like to contest your findings vis-a-vis Beatles songs King Crimson has covered-I've listened and listened to my casstte(perhaps thats the problem) of Thrax and CANNOT find the "Free As A Bird" reference and CANNOT find it unless you're talking about the piece at the beginning "VROOOOM"?? I adore both the song and KC, and hope its true... *Didn't Mr.Belew do a song called Belew Jay Way. Doesn't that count? Dale Hoyt ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #827 ********************************