Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #825 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 825 Sunday, 8 April 2001 Today's Topics: Re: Technical Stuff and Crimson's Golden Age King Crimson and Intellectual History Pony Canyon KCCC was Torn + Bozzio + Karn = Polytown The Third Star/random thoughts For the Russian fans - New good book & translation problems Tronzo (note precious little KC content...) Extensive interview with Pat in new Roland magazine Cloud About Mercury Re: Original KC Mellotrons Re: Album Review: The Sound of Surprise Re: Rieflin/Fripp/Gunn anywhere? Worthwhile Neo-Prog From Crimson to Genesis Magna Carta "metamorphosis" "It's a Tough One Today..." Colour-me-Pop Re: Cloud About Mercury ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 16:28:20 -0700 From: Tom Ace Subject: Re: Technical Stuff and Crimson's Golden Age "budlet" wrote: >On to more important issues. Reading Fripp's diary on the DGM websaite >indicates that Crimson is already putting together new material. I think, >therefore, that this means that from the Projekcts until now, Crimson has >produced more music than any time in its history. The "Golden Age" of >Crimson is now. Discuss! To me, a term like 'golden age' denotes quality, not quantity. This is music, not yard goods. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 20:10:17 EDT From: Kplnf at aol dot com Subject: King Crimson and Intellectual History Where do we place King Crimson in the the History of ideas? At this point I believe the answer to both our questions is one and the same. The art of King Crimson (lyrics and music) is best characterized as "Menippean satire." Let's view King Crimson side-by side with the generic characteristics of Menippean satire: 1) A farrago of voices. King Crimson draws upon a variety of musical forms and traditions--jazz, blues, rock, romanticism, the baroque, Medieval, and so on. Also, KC lyrics might be seen as a similar mixture of forms--history, confession, biography, national epic, pharmacopeia, romance, and modernist experimentation. The "speakers" in these lyrics, too, represent a broad cross-section of personas--lunatics, Medieval kings, jazzy fellows, schoolmen, mythological heroes, funny chaps, story-tellers, wags, carnival barkers, jokers, and wise guys. 2) A mixture of genres. Same thing again, but it behooves us to draw this extra distinction because you can't think too much about variety, I always say. 3) Seriocomic. King Crimson takes serious themes and presents them in a comic manner. There is nothing so funny as an extended solo that utilizes wonderfully pleasant melodies or absurd noises, particularly when featured in a composition about alientation, sycho-pathology, irreleigious despair, or the hopelessness of the human condition. King Crimson = lots of laughs. 4) Broad audience. The art of King Crimson is aimed at a broader audience than is normally the practice with such aterial, content, and form--that is, "high-brow" jazz, studied poetry, multi-level introspection, and philosophical investigation. Indeed, the commons owes much to the King Crimson boys for providing high quality aesthetic education on the cheap. Thanks, boys! Another aspect of Menippean satire to consider is its analytic purpose. Menippean satire shares much in common with Wittgensteinian analysis--the philsophy of Ludwig Wittgenstein, and not the early Wittgenstein of the Tractatus (which I parodied recently in a DGM guestbook entry), but the latter Wittgenstein of the Philosophical Investigations. Robert Fripp's aphorisms are in spirit and humor remarkably similar to Wittgenstein's mode; and this sensibility is indeed conveyed by King Crimson's music. The consideration of notions of the "shock of the familiar," Keltic ornamentation, Keltic irony, and Keltic "leg-pulling" might also bear fruit. Nor would I overlook the insights that might be gained in a perusal of Charles Jencks' analysis of post-modernism (and let us eschew that hyphenless "postmodernism" championed by the schoolmen. More euphimism and cant we do not need!). Some literary relatives of King Crimson include Byron, Blake, Swift, Pope,Milton, Thomas Love Peacock, Mary Shelley, Hawthorne, Melville, Lewis Carroll, Aldous Huxley, Rabelais, Cervantes, Aristophanes, and Nabokov. We've come a long way, but where do we go from here? Hmm. Let's look at the Good Fairy. Who is this person? A good analogy might be found in the heroes of our iterature--Don Quixote, Panurge, Hamlet, Milton's Satan, Blake's Christ, Ishmael from Moby-Dick, Hester Pryne from the Scarlet Letter, or that hard-to-pin-down metaphysical scamp from Melville's The Confidence-Man, who takes on a new persona in each new chapter as he pursues his quest for confidence in a "fallen" world inhabited by snakes, canines, and Homo sapiens. Like these heroes from our literature, our Good Fairy is an expression of the relentless curiosity and skepticism that keeps us human despite ourselves. I call our Good Fairy the "Laughing Crimudgeon." His purpose is to articulate his thoughts and feelings through the Crimsters, use them to make contact with the Crim-Heads, and convert them--the Crim-Heads--into Crimsters. Respectfully Submitted, Carter Kaplan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 01:25:12 EDT From: Kingdoofis at gateway dot net Subject: Pony Canyon KCCC Anyone: I read in the FAQ section of ET that there are differences between the legitimate Collectors Club releases and their Japanese counterparts (released through the Pony Canyon Distributor). Evidently, some tracks are longer on the American releases. I acquired the first 6 club releases ('The Marquee 1969' through 'KC on Broadway') before I knew about the real Collectors Club. Can anyone tell me the specific differences between the Japanese and the American DGM releases on these first six recordings? Are any of them so drastic that I need to update my set? Sincerely, Ted Goodyear ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 06:25:22 From: "Spear man" Subject: was Torn + Bozzio + Karn = Polytown If memory serves (which it does) torn + isham + jansen + sylvian + barbieri = secrets of the beehive tour 1987. and a fine live one it was, indeed! - --spearman ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:10:01 -0500 From: "RadioactiveToy71" Subject: The Third Star/random thoughts Thanks to the posters who helped me remember the Polytown CD; I had left it in the car and couldn't exactly run down and get it at that time of the morning...:) A couple questions regarding Trey Gunn: is the Third Star CD out of print? I am having a terribly hard time trying to find this on my own, and one place I ordered it from told me it was no longer available. Second, Eric Johnson's Alien Love Child is coming next week w. Derek Trucks. Anyone seen the show yet? Is Trey playing with him? I thought I saw something about this in the last couple of ETs, so I'd like to know, because if he is playing beside EJ, I've got to go! What's worse is that Dickey Betts is coming two days later: I know, not really proggy, just a hell of a lot of great guitar playing all at once! Anyone else heard the CAB CDs? CAB is Tony McAlpine, Dennis Chambers, and Bunny Brunell (sp?--not sure on how to spell that), and I think Brian Auger on keys as well. A friend of mine introduced me to their music last weekend, and I really liked what I heard; very experimental fusion rock / jazz stuff. Regarding the poster who inquired about Porcupine Tree, Spock's Beard, and The Flower Kings, yes yes yes they are all very good. For starters, I would recommend: PTree - Coma Divine Live (excellent live recording from 1997, features some of the best of their older material) Spock's Beard - either V or Don't Try This at Home (I know, it's going backwards, but that's how I got into them, and those are also the easiest albums to find in the stores, if you are having a hard time finding this stuff) The Flower Kings - Alive on Planet A or Retropolis (the first of which contains a live cover of the Lamb Lies Down on Broadway by Genesis!) I know those are mostly live albums, but they're still great places to start; you get to hear the bands showing their stuff in a live setting and get a good taste of the catalog in general. That seems to work for me most of the time. Other recent projects you might enjoy: Transatlantic, Liquid Tension Experiment, Platypus, and The Explorer's Club. All of these projects bring together band members from Dream Theater, Marillion, King's X, King Crimson, Flower Kings, Spock's Beard, and I think Magellan and Dali's Dilemma. Some interesting stuff and definitely worth checking out. Chris (yes I am a Ptree fan, how'd ya guess? :) ) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 14:20:50 +0400 From: "VN" Subject: For the Russian fans - New good book & translation problems Kniga Vladimira Kal'nickogo "Rusificirovannyj King Crimson", v Moskve ejo mozhno kupit' v magazine "Zig-Zag" u metro Arbatskaja (naprotiv Doma druzhby, na vitrine portret Jimi Hendrix'sa), v Pitere v magazine "Kailas" po adresu ul. Pushkinskaja, d.10. Kupil (117 rublev), prochel s interesom i drugim sovetuju Odnako "The Deception of the Trush" nel'zja perevodit' kak "Khitrost' drozda" (pp. 194-195), ehti stroki iz "Burnt Norton" (from Eliot's "Four Quartets", see parallel texts in: T.S.Eliot. Selected poetry SPb., 1994, p.44-45) v kontekste oznachajut "vsled za obmannym peniem drozda", "za posulom drozda" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 12:02:39 EDT From: OTotor0 at aol dot com Subject: Tronzo (note precious little KC content...) but then lots of the discussion lately has contained precious little KC content. With all the David Tronzo discussion swirling about I simply can't help myself. Here goes: My band, Nova Social, is hosting a series of Thursday evenings at The Den @ Two Boots in NYC (starting tonight, actually). We've gotten a ton of amazing people to come spend time with us in the den's amazingly small, intimate setting. David Tronzo will be playing a set of duets with sax wizard Michael Blake (John Lurie's Lounge Lizards, Free Association) on April 19th. If you're in the NYC area please feel welcome to come and check it out. It should be pretty amazing. Information and schedules can be had at www.novasocial.com... Thanks. Now that I have broken my "no self-promotion on ET" pledge I shall commit musical hari-kari by listening to the last two Bay City Rollers records. Thanks, - -Thom Soriano ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 14:21:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim McCabe Subject: Extensive interview with Pat in new Roland magazine The most recent Roland promotional magazine arrived in the mail yesterday and they've got a long interview with Pat regarding his equipment. If you don't already get it (due to registering some Roland product) you can often find them for free in music stores. - -- Jim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 11:23:16 -0700 From: "Cerquone, Suzanne" Subject: Cloud About Mercury Cloud About Mercury is being reissued (not remastered) by ECM and is coming out May 8th in the U.S. The reason for the reissue is that ECM recently switched distribution from BMG to Universal, and they need to reissue the majority of their titles under new catalog numbers. I'm enclosing the link of the Universal Classics website, which ECM is part of - the site also sells the CD, and you can preorder it now. http://www.iclassics.com/iclassics/album.jsp?selectionId=4725 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 14:47:57 -0400 From: Mark Rehder Subject: Re: Original KC Mellotrons "John Spokus" wrote: > > Guys, > I think you've missed some aspect of the story surrounding these original > instruments owned by Fripp/KC. Do most fans really know how many trons they > went through ? Does Fripp really remember what became of them all thirty > years later ? Musicians at this level tend to go through a lot of gear. Many > times, in the older era especially,a good deal of equipment was replaced > after a tour.With the fragile nature of the mellotron, I imagine that this > could be especially true. I've known sound guys that owned various pieces > from name acts. Considering that Mellotrons are all-encompassing in their demands of their owner's patience, I'm sure Fripp remembers all of them! Also, not that many trons were made, and they weren't cheap, so I imagine that while they went through a lot of spare parts, the trons themselves didn't get changed very much. > I did read a story that claims Genesis purchased their first tron from > KC, and that it was one of the original two and "the one that wouldn't stay > in tune." I think I remember hearing another story about one of the > originals being lost in a fire at a club possibly.Whether this guys tron is > an original KC instrument is open for debate, though. I can imagine someone > concocting a story like that to jack the price of a vintage instrument. > While on their first tour in '69 the main tron suffered water damage from the aftermath of a fire. They were already touring with two (one for back-up), so another one was found in England and shipped to them (that alone probably removed half the tour's profits!) This is documented in Fripp's notes for the Epitaph box set. Tony Banks of Genesis told the story of how they went and met with KC roadies to buy the Mark II tron, and I believe Fripp has backed this up (and one of those roadies went on to work for Genesis as tour manager in the mid-'70's). And BTW, none of the Mark II trons apparently liked to stay in tune (inadequate motors)! To quote Fripp: "tuning a Mellotron doesn't.". Mark - -- +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "In a world without walls or fences, who needs Windows or Gates?" Come and visit my Webpages at: http://home.istar.ca/~marker/ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 14:58:44 EDT From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: Re: Album Review: The Sound of Surprise In an ET message dated Sun, 01 Apr 2001 15:45:55 -0500, "W. Stuart Kirkham" < wskirkham at mail dot utexas dot edu> writes: > One last note: The US release contains some video footage of the band > playing. It is done in the same style as the video in Heavy ConstruKction > (i.e., it requires a password that you do not need if you just open the CD > in My Computer or Windows Explorer and navigate down to the video file - > earthw.wmv - itself - I still need the password myself...). A difference > is that only one song is played, and it is introduced by sub-titles > (they're getting fancy at BTV or DGM or whoever did it). The only problem > is, the song is introduced as "Never the Same Way Once" but it is actually > "Some Shiver, While he Cavorts." Chalk up another one for the guys at > Indiscipline Global Mobile...don't these guys actually listen to the As a matter of fact they do. The video was sourced from a TV broadcast. The subtitles were put on by the TV station during the broadcast. DGM realized the subtitles were wrong, but they came with the pictures, and the artist still wanted this track to be used. Yet another situation where guilt is assumed, and innocence must be proven. I always thought it should be the other way around. But here that is rarely the case. Dan DGM Webmaster webmaster at disciplineglobalmobile dot com http://www.disciplineglobalmobile.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 15:15:43 EDT From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: Re: Rieflin/Fripp/Gunn anywhere? In a message dated Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:38:36 -0300, "Paulo Henrique Leocadio" < paulohl at microsoft dot com> writes: Fellas, The Repercussions of Angelic Behaviour algum is one of the best > semi-ProjeKct albums from the ProjeKcts era. > I really love it but I find information from it nowhere. The CD is > empty, there are no track names and the Internet link referred to in the > album is dead. > > Any piece of clarification on this? Do you guys also like this work as > much as I do? > > Paulo H. Leocadio > Paulo, Go to the First World site for details. Or directly to http://www.firstworldmusic.com/pages/reper.html Cheers, Dan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 15:25:26 -0400 From: "Tim Roache" Subject: Worthwhile Neo-Prog If I had to recommend a short list of truly worthwhile Neo-Prog to the uninitiated, it would include the following; Dream Theater-"Scenes From A Memory"; quality progressive metal The Flower Kings-"Alive On Planet Earth"; excellent intro to tFK's. Marillion-"Misplaced Childhood"; The only Marillion you really need, although I am ashamed to admit I like the Hogarth stuff on "Best Of Both Worlds". Ozric Tentacles-"Erpland"; Outstanding psychedelic fusion, probably the only OT album you need. Porcupine Tree-"Stupid Dream"; Floyd-esque. excellent. Spock's Beard-"V"; Unquestionably the best SB album. Stolt Morse Portnoy Trewavas-"Transatlantic"; guitarist Roine Stolt from The Flower Kings, singer-keyboards-songwriter Neal Morse from Spock's Beard, bass player Pete Trewavas from Marillion, and drummer Mike Portnoy from Dream Theater. Some insipid lyrics, not uncommon with Spock's Beard, but worthwhile if only for the opening 31 minute epic "All Of The Above", which is excellent. Have fun! "I want to walk on the sea so that I may better find a shore, but how can I ever keep my feet dry?" - -Peter Hammill / VdGG Timothy D. Roache Stratosphere Multimedia 65 East 55th Street New York, NY 10022 troache at stratosphere-nyc dot com (212) 702-0700 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 16:05:00 -0400 From: Ted White Subject: From Crimson to Genesis In ET #824, John Spokus sez: "I did read a story that claims Genesis purchased their first tron from KC, and that it was one of the original two and "the one that wouldn't stay in tune." I think I remember hearing another story about one of the originals being lost in a fire at a club possibly.Whether this guys tron is an original KC instrument is open for debate, though. I can imagine someone concocting a story like that to jack the price of a vintage instrument." I interviewed Tony Banks in 1978 and he told me then that they'd bought their first Mellotron from King Crimson. - --TW (Dr P) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 16:11:18 -0400 From: "Tim Roache" Subject: Magna Carta Enclosed in the Bozzio Levin Stevens "Black Light Syndrome" jewel box is a catalogue of releases from the Magna Carta label. Is anyone familiar with the bands Cairo, Magellan, and Tempest? I pretty much figure this stuff is generic progressive metal of no particular relevance. Am I wrong? There is also some noteworthy-looking stuff (3 albums) by a Bozzio project called The Lonely Bears. Anyone? Timothy D. Roache Stratosphere Multimedia 65 East 55th Street New York, NY 10022 troache at stratosphere-nyc dot com (212) 702-0700 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 22:33:06 BST From: "Tim Jones" Subject: "metamorphosis" I've recently read about an album release on the Tenth Planet label called - "Metamorphosis" which is a collection of recordings made by an embryonic Crimson whose line-up consists of Giles,Giles & Fripp along with McDonald and Judy Dyble - the release is rumoured to be on vinyl only with a pressing of 1000 --- will this ever be released on CD and who is giving permission for this release? best regards ~ Tim Jones ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 15:36:14 -0600 From: "White, George" Subject: "It's a Tough One Today..." So I'm listeing to the radio here in Boulder a few minutes ago and the DJ is talking about the prizes up for grabs in today's "My Three Songs" Contest, in which three tunes have something in common. Before he starts playing the first song, he tells the audience "I gotta warn you...it's a tough one today." The first song, Bowie's "Heroes," holds my attention, and a grin breaks out on my face as "Games Without Frontiers" follows. Would have bet $1,000 on the third song being "Heartbeat" (as it and the occasional "Walking On Air" are the absolutely only KC songs played here) and sure enough it is. Though I tried to call in, the lines were busy, not surprising since the Boulder/Denver area is filled with KC enthusiasts. When the tape of the winner's call was played on air, the DJ was incredulous that ANYONE would be able to solve such a tricky puzzle....he mentioned again what a challenging one it had been and asked the winner "Are you a guitarist? You gotta be a guitarist to know this one...." Not being a guitarist myself, I have absolutely no idea what the answer could have been. Probably something to do with cool hair........ George in Denver ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 22:42:29 BST From: "Tim Jones" Subject: Colour-me-Pop Could anyone give any details as to the contents of the '25 minute set' played by Giles,Giles & Fripp & McDonald on the late 1960s BBC-TV show "Colour Me Pop" plus any other illuminating facts regarding this TV footage ? best regards ~ Tim Jones ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 15:08:41 -0700 From: "David G. Dixon" Subject: Re: Cloud About Mercury In addition to CAM, BLP, and Polytown, a couple of other must haves for budding Torn fans would be: "The Tooth Mother" by Mick Karn, and "Jason's Chord" by Andy Rinehart. Both were produced by Torn, and both feature Torn and Karn. The Rinehart one is especially good, although don't be alarmed at first, as it is a bunch of songs. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #825 ********************************