Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #824 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 824 Thursday, 5 April 2001 Today's Topics: NEWS: DGM Wireless Launched Fripp and Toyah The Saga of Rodney Toady IMHO Asia/ Stupid Posts Like Mine/PNC Park Rieflin/Fripp/Gunn anywhere? Re: HDCD Original KC Mellotrons President Crimson Re: String gauges Wetton on NomansLand E.T. Re: techno-talk and sound Spock's Beard, The Flower Kings, Porcupine Tree... Re: Cloud About Mercury DTS Surround on CD and String gauges The prog..the prog... Wailing guitar The sound Of Surprise The Sound of Surprise ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 21:42:27 EDT From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: NEWS: DGM Wireless Launched Announcing the launch of DGM Wireless! PDA and wireless device users familiar with the ET Web for PDA service will be happy to know that DGM Web is now also available for small handhelds. Much like you can read the latest ET newsletter, and this posting, on your wireless handheld, such as the Palm, Visor or iPAQ, you can now access the DGM Guestbook and DGM Diaries through your PDA. ET Web for PDA has been quite popular. Although the recent ET Survey only showed a small percentage of folks read ET on their PDA device, according to AvantGo, which hosts the ET Web PDA channel, there are over 400 subscribers to the channel, and the number is growing at about 30 new subscribers per month. DGM Wireless provides some nice unique features. You can control the amount of content you receive through personalized settings. This allows you to select how many DGM Guestbook postings you wish to download/access, and which DGM Diaries you wish to download/access. For more details visit DGM Web. Cheers! Dan --- Dan Kirkdorffer DGM Webmaster webmaster at disciplineglobalmobile dot com http://www.disciplineglobalmobile.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 02:10:18 EDT From: ARandomAkct at aol dot com Subject: Fripp and Toyah I recently picked up a 12" lp single titled "The Lady or The Tiger" by Toyah & Fripp featuring the League of Crafty Guitarists. The b-side is a song titled "The Discourager of Hesitency". Does anyone know if this comes from an album or if it was released alone? It is dated 1986. I grew up enjoying Fripp's work with Eno and Bowie and his solo material and went from there to his Crimson material. In the mid eighties I got a compilation album called Urgh: A Music War and was introduced to Toyah Wilcox. It wasn't until recently that I found out these two artists that I admire were married. Well, my mind was blown. Does anyone have any recent information on the availability of Toyah's material? This lp has really rewet my appitite. In ET#822 Bruce Pearson writes: >I have never heard any of the ProjeKct pieces. Would you recommend me buying >the ProjeKct box set? How would you rate those 4 cds? And also, have any of >the smaller groups (?) made some albums different to whats in the box set? >thank you. Of the four cd's in the box the only one I wasnt blown away by was ProjeKct One: Live at the Jazz Cafe which is totally improved and unreherced and tends to be very unstructured. The other three were awesome. Remember when buying the ProjeKcts material that this is not KC and not to expect KC. I would suggest before buying the box to get ProjeKct Four's album Heaven and Hell and ProjeKct Two's album Space Groove to give you a taste of what to expect. You wont be dissapointed! PX is very much like the instumentals found on Heavy Construction and P2 is an almost techno spacey feel. Very jazzy. Thanks, John O'Dell A Random Akct at aol dot com "Each of us is alone on the heart of the earth pierced by a ray of sun: and suddenly it's evening." -Salvatore Quasimodo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 12:27:04 +0400 From: "Vladimir Kalnitsky" Subject: The Saga of Rodney Toady Hi ETers, Can anybody help me with the lyrics of "The Saga of Rodney Toady" from the "Cheerful Insanity of Giles, Giles & Fripp"? I'll be very pleased for the assistance. Welcome to my site "IndoorGames - The Russificated King Crimson" - http://www.indoorgames.hotmail.ru . Best regards Vlad ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 08:31:17 -0400 From: "Joe Basile" Subject: IMHO Asia/ Stupid Posts Like Mine/PNC Park Luigi Giugliano post in the last ET, took me back about 15 years ago, or longer. Back then anything that hinted of Crimson you bought. So when ASIA came out I thought this was another UK. I was also a big Steve Howe fan at the time and remain this today. A friend said it was to poppy for his taste. Me being an adulant begged to differ. He kindly put "Heat of the Moment" on a tape then "Providence". A, Ah, A, I saw the light. I still like Asia, I last bought Aqua. I seem to listen to Crimson & related music around 100 times more. ...Also, If you saw the latest edition of Crimson live, how could you possible question anything about this team. No doubt in my mind, the best four rock musicians to every be on stage. Sunday I took an Eters advise and revisted TCOL. Had HEAVY CONSTRUCTION in the disc player for 3 months. I was wrong, TCOL is not obslete. I forgot how sonic and at times symphonic this studio album is. So how in hades can you question this team? " Against the odds, Fripp has invented his band once more in a way that shames all other(s) - London Sunday Times. Just hope the burg is one of the places they" missed last time". Of course drinking Corona's in a Cleveland Balcony and seeing the greatest band in the land was really cool . Cleveland rocked that November night! On an unrealated Crimson note, PNC Park is an awesome baseball park. Took the boy there last Saturday / WOWsville ? Magical place, magicalk place! A must see in the burg! . No! No! No!, IC Light Ampa Theater would be a better venue. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:38:36 -0300 From: "Paulo Henrique Leocadio" Subject: Rieflin/Fripp/Gunn anywhere? Greetings! Fellas, The Repercussions of Angelic Behaviour algum is one of the best semi-ProjeKct albums from the ProjeKcts era. I really love it but I find information from it nowhere. The CD is empty, there are no track names and the Internet link referred to in the album is dead. Any piece of clarification on this? Do you guys also like this work as much as I do? Paulo H. Leocadio Sao Paulo/SP/Brazil ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 13:52:24 +0100 From: Peter Clinch

Subject: Re: HDCD In ET 821 Randy Hammill wondered: > The KC releases are 24 bit/96khz releases. Many new DVD > players are capable of playing this back. But DO they play this back any > differently than a CD player? Do you mean the rereleases/remasters? If so, though the mastering is done at 24 bit I think the resulting CD is mastered at 16 bit, to enable it to work in any CD player. DVD machines playing back CDs play them back *as* CDs, so there would be no difference just from the "number of bits" aspect possible in a DVD audio setup. However, just as CD players aren't all the same, DVD players acting as CD players won't be the same, or the same as pure CD machines. You can't just assume "more bits are better", it isn't that simple: designing higher bit resolution componentry is much harder than simpler designs, so there's room to get it wrong in far more many places! Why bother doing the remaster at 24 bit? Saves doing it again if there *is* a 24 bit release! Also, careful mastering is far more important than many people seem to realise in coming up with a good end product. Pete. -- Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p dot j dot clinch at dundee dot ac dot uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 10:01:48 -0400 From: "John Spokus" Subject: Original KC Mellotrons Guys, I think you've missed some aspect of the story surrounding these original instruments owned by Fripp/KC. Do most fans really know how many trons they went through ? Does Fripp really remember what became of them all thirty years later ? Musicians at this level tend to go through a lot of gear. Many times, in the older era especially,a good deal of equipment was replaced after a tour.With the fragile nature of the mellotron, I imagine that this could be especially true. I've known sound guys that owned various pieces from name acts. I did read a story that claims Genesis purchased their first tron from KC, and that it was one of the original two and "the one that wouldn't stay in tune." I think I remember hearing another story about one of the originals being lost in a fire at a club possibly.Whether this guys tron is an original KC instrument is open for debate, though. I can imagine someone concocting a story like that to jack the price of a vintage instrument. John Spokus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 10:41:06 -0400 From: David Vella Subject: President Crimson Greetings Eletalkers, It's probably a good thing that Toby has shut the lid on discussions of the definition of "prog", although I did want to respond to Ted White's remarks in ET#815. (Maybe I can find the time to respond privately, Ted.) Meanwhile, I've got to relate this humorous episode to the whole community: My three-year-old daughter Chiara is struggling to understand her world. There's a lot to learn, but Mom & Dad do what they can. Since Chiara has driven in to the day care every day with me for the past 3 years, she is already quite familiar with the music of a number of rock bands (progressive and otherwise) that get my respect and reverence, in particular King Crimson. Now she is branching out into history/politics -- my wife has given her a place mat with pictures of all the US presidents. She certainly gets the idea that these folks are important, although it is not so clear that she has any idea of the meaning of the word "president". After spending a few moments thoughtfully looking at the pictures, she asked "Mommy -- Is King Crimson President?" God I love that child! Cheers, David Vella ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 10:54:00 -0500 From: "Sandra J Prow" Subject: Re: String gauges According to Curt Golden, who has recently been caught teaching a lot of Guitar Craft, the recommended acoustic gauges are: 11p-13p-22w-32w-47w-58w. These are available in a set from John Pearse. www.seattlecircle.com/instruction/curtgolden/cg3_tuning.htm FYI, YMMV. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 21:09:20 +0400 From: "Igor Zolotaryev" Subject: Wetton on NomansLand Hi, I found recently a John Wetton live CD from his Poland shows in 1998 called NomansLand - and was wondering why I could not find it in AMG discography or ET KC alumni table of releases. Well, I gave it a try and was not disappointed though UK and Asia don't sound good to me. NomansLand has covers of Book of Saturdays, Starless, Easy Money, and Night Watch and these are good, Wetton sounds very strong and fresh and his bass lines are very clear and powerful. I am sure that most of ETers have listened to this CD - it's just I was kinda disappointed and saddened by the 'Death of a legend' post. I'd hate the thought that JW is even less than a musically spent force but just another fat drunk who can't even manage the four strings let alone sing. Maybe he'll behave? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 14:05:42 -0400 From: David Vella Subject: E.T. In #823, W. Stuart Kirkham asks: > who came up with the phrase "Elephant Talk" anyway? My guess is that Adrian Belew's guitar came up with the suggestion. (Listen to the song of the the same title.) Sort of the obvious progression (can I use that word, Toby?) from the Rhino sounds on Ade's first solo album. -David Vella ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 14:35:04 -0400 From: Warren Melnick Subject: Re: techno-talk and sound IN ET#823, Dennis Weins said: "WOW. If it wasn't for the artwork on the vinal record, it would be gone. There are things I could hear on the CD I had no idea were there! [esp. in wind instraments]" [-snip-]"So much for my technologically un-educated opinion." Well Dennis, imagine what it will be like when you get a 96/24 copy of Lizards and it takes YET ANOTHER leap forward sonicly (is that a word?) While the difference may not be quite as dramatic as what you have just experienced, there will be a startling and noticible difference. If you happen to have a chance to beg, borrow or pick up used, a copy of the original CD pressing of lizards, listen to the vinyl, then that, then the remaster. You will notice how much better it gets each time. It still has a step to go yet. Regards, ---------------- Warren Melnick Director of Research and Development Astata Corporation ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 13:40:49 -0500 From: Lewis W Beard Subject: Spock's Beard, The Flower Kings, Porcupine Tree... Karet > The fourth band I throw in to this mix is Ozric Tentacles - all > instrumental, psychy and trippy, and quite well done. Loren (and ET): I have never heard Porcupine Tree or Under The Sun, but I really like the one Flower Kings album I bought (Space Revolver), and I Spock's Beard are pretty good (though I am not as into the new one, V (or whatever) as much as I expected). So, what other Flower Kings albums do people recommend, and what Porcupine Tree and Under The Sun material do you all recommend? Also, I wanted to say I have recently been buying all the Ozric Tentacles I can get my hands on, and its all very cool, though not like King Crimson really at all. The other band I have been buying everything from is Djam Karet. They are a guitar-rock/prog band, 2 guitarists, a bass player, and a drummer. Someone apparantly sometimes does keyboards here and there, maybe one of the guitarists. They do a lot of stuff that is jam oriented, they do some textured layered stuff, some melodic material, some ambient stuff occasionally, but they are a great instrumental band, I love their stuff. So, thats another recommendation. What other "neo prog" bands are there? Is there anyone else even vaguely like the modern KC sound out there? Lewis > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 14:43:02 -0400 From: Dan Cooper Subject: Re: Cloud About Mercury In #823, "Bochepus"(?!) wrote: "There is supposed to be a new re-release of CAM [Cloud About Mercury by David Torn] coming to the US market on ECM, though I don't know if it will be remastered." After searching high and low for this fabulous out-of-print CD featuring Bruford and Levin, I found it on ECM Records' web site. You must pick it up, especially if you enjoyed BLUE! You might also want to check out another Torn album on ECM called Best Laid Plans. I like it almost as well as CAM. Here is the web link to CAM http://www.ecmrecords.com/ecm/recordings/1322.html Enjoy! Dan Cooper ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 15:39:19 -0400 From: Randall dot Hammill at hartfordlife dot com Subject: DTS Surround on CD and String gauges Nick Loebner wrote: Not possible on any CD format. Possible on DVD-Video and DVD-Audio... but not on SACD (which is stereo only at present). There are in fact a number of CDs released in DTS format, they are just hard to find. Check out http://store.dtsonline.com/cd-frames.html Also, in reference to whether DVD-Audio will play on regular DVD players - They will, but not in the DVD-Audio Format. At least for all of the releases that I have seen to date (including ELP's Brain Salad Surgery) there is a Dolby Digital version of the recording on the disc in addition to the DVD-Audio. You cannot watch the video, nor listen to the higher quality DVD-Audio, but you can use the disk. Check the packaging on the disk to see if this is the case before you buy one. In fact, all of the reviews that I read on that version of Brain Salad Surgery (on Amazon, etc.) were reviews of the Dolby Digital version, because none of the people had DVD-Audio players. On an unrelated note - for string gauges in NST see the Seattle Circle site here: http://www.seattlecircle.com/instruction/curtgolden/cg3_tuning.htm#gctuning and the last two questions here: http://www.seattlecircle.com/guitardock/archive/archive.htm This has recommended gauges for both electric and acoustic guitars, and includes what Robert uses. I use (on both my acoustic and electric) Fender Stainless 350 RH string sets. These are .010p, .013p, .017p, .032w, .042w and .052w. -Randy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 16:09:06 EDT From: Obelisk123 at aol dot com Subject: The prog..the prog... Wailing guitar 1) Spock's Beard - Genesis with more guitar and and edge 2) The Flower Kings - sometimes Genesis, more often Yes 3) Porcupine Tree - Pink Floyd I too love the Ozric Tentacles.. What would u say their influences come from ? I hear alot of Steve Hillage/Gong- Hawkwind etc... Lots of world music stuff in there also in the mix..Middle Eastern, English n Irish heritage music... Spocks Beard really is fun.. Concerning Derek Trucks - Man o man..... That guy can play.. Seen him much over the last 5 or 6 years.. He had stints in Phil n Friends (Lesh is from the Grateful Dead)n just saw him play 2 nites with the Allman Brothers in NYC a week or two ago.. Very melodic n very sharp.. What I really connect with is his ability to fit in any combo.. A true player who goes for the shared voice of all the instruments instead of the glory.. I am sure he is givin Eric Johnson a run for his $$.. I have always dug Eric Johnson n I gotta say I like twhat he is doing now better than his past efforts.. .. I do dig his new cd... Concerning Japanese prog-noise duo Ruins - They are pretty nutty... Really like what I have heard.. So much music coming from that area of the planet.. I have been listening to Ghost lately ... Also some Angels in Heavy Syrup ...Some fun stuff, very trippy... Which I like.. What about Acid Mother's Temple ? they are out there !!! Hey Fripp or any member of the current lineup of King Crimson !! If yr out there ... Lurking.... N yr taking a peak.... Blessingz to ya.... I look forward to the music.. Listened to Lizard today when I rebuilt my rock walls around sidewalk.. Kinda a rite of spring for me as the temp in New York wuz around 53 degrees.. Going to go book shopping tonite n have chosen Adrian's Twang Bar King for the soundtrack of my commerce experience.. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 20:47:13 -0000 From: "Danny Anderson" Subject: The sound Of Surprise Going out on a limb here but to me , The Sound Of Surprise is more the sound of bored to tears. That's me listening to it. Love BB but it doesn't hit me at all. I have my hands up and am ready for incoming fire for this one. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 17:32:17 EDT From: Carlthewave at aol dot com Subject: The Sound of Surprise I was wondering about the bonus track on the Japanese version. Is the tenth track "The Sound of Surprise" worth the extra money? Or, am I better off with the US version? Any help would be appreciated. Carl from Minnetonka MN ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #824 ********************************