Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #823 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 823 Wednesday, 4 April 2001 Today's Topics: Spock's Beard, The Flower Kings, Porcupine Tree Re: Trey Gunn with Eric Johnson Re: Ruins Re: ET'ers Torn + Bozzio + Karn = Polytown HDCD Vortexan Sessions revisited Re: HDCD ITCOTCK message Technical Stuff and Crimson's Golden Age TREY GUNN Re: SACD Surround SACD DTS/ DVD-A etc Album Review: The Sound of Surprise Wetton Surprising silence over Sound of Surprise It arises from the murk... techno-talk and sound ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 20:37:05 -0600 From: "Loren W. Claypool" Subject: Spock's Beard, The Flower Kings, Porcupine Tree In issue 820 Tim asked > I am curious as to the Crim community's opinion of the music of Spocks > Beard, The Flower Kings, Porcupine Tree, Under The Sun, and other "Neo-Prog" > acts...The good, the bad, and the ugly. I would also be interested in > Canterbury and Italian recommendations. I'm a huge KC fan, from ITCOTKC thru TCOL, I buy it all, and somehow like it all. I've also become a huge fan of Spock's Beard, The Flower Kings, and Porcupine Tree of the last year or so. I've picked up all three of their catalogs without regrets. I'm a little less excited by Under The Sun but occassionally enjoy their CD and wouldn't hesitate to recommend it. (I'll be seeing PT and UTS at Nearfest in June!) All three bands are quite unique and have their identity but I trace their "sonic heritage" as: 1) Spock's Beard - Genesis with more guitar and and edge 2) The Flower Kings - sometimes Genesis, more often Yes 3) Porcupine Tree - Pink Floyd Again, with that said, there is no copying or knock-offs here, just influences. Very mature, exciting music here. The fourth band I throw in to this mix is Ozric Tentacles - all instrumental, psychy and trippy, and quite well done. Hope this helps, Loren ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 01:46:16 -0600 From: Danny Wright Subject: Re: Trey Gunn with Eric Johnson > So is Trey Gunn currently on tour w/ EJ? I almost went to see them in Houston yesterday, but only because Derek Trucks Band opened for them and they weren't playing Austin. That might have been enough to give me the motivation. IMHO, Eric Johnson is somewhat overrated, and I wouldn't be surprised if DTB is blowing them away as their opener. And what's up w/ KC skipping Texas anyway? There are some fairly large markets here and CGT did sell out 4 shows last fall in Austin - granted at a small venue, but that's the best place to see live music! > > Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 07:38:20 -0600 > From: Chris Cowan > Subject: Trey Gunn with Eric Johnson > > Someone on the list was asking about Eric Johnson playing with Trey > Gunn. > > I had the great pleasure of seeing the Vortexian show, with Eric, Trey, > and Jerry Marotta on drums. Trey's diary entry was correct, they put > Austin on it's ass. (I guess this makes up for the fact that Pat > Mastelotto lives here in town and KC did not even have a tour date > within the state of TX this last time!!) > > The show however, consisted of no new EJ material. It was all > classic stuff from EJ's solo albums Tones, Ah Via Musicom, and Venus > Isle. What was interesting to see was Trey step into the role of > being a bass player, on the Warr Guitar, with this material.. His > playing and approach were very different than what I had seen in other > shows (the double KC trio, and the ProjeKct 3) or what I heard on Trey's > solo efforts. > > I have also seen EJ with Alien Love Child multiple times, but Vortexian > was just light years ahead of them. They really made EJ better. > Unfortunately, I don't think there was any studio effort, and to the > best of my knowledge they played at most 5 or 6 shows. > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 02:51:36 -0600 (CST) From: TIMOTHY GUEGUEN Subject: Re: Ruins On Sat, 31 Mar 2001, Elephant Talk wrote: > ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 14:04:32 +0100 > From: "C McG" > Subject: Re: The Stevens in BLS > > Any fans of Japanese prog-noise duo Ruins out there? > A very cool group. It would be interesting to hear what Fripp could cook up with them, especially given their collaboration with the pioneering free improv guitarist Derek Bailey. tim gueguen 101867 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 07:15:53 EST From: ScrutinizerMA at aol dot com Subject: Re: ET'ers >I had steeled myself upon joining that I may be letting myself in for month >long debates about the string Gauges of Robert Fripp... >john-paul Okay, I'm game... 11 13 23 32 46 56 and 12 15 23 32 47 60 were the two gauge sets offered by Guitar Craft Services, as referenced by Ericc Tamm in "Robert Fripp: From King Crimson to Guitar Craft." In Guitar Player magazine, July 1995, according to the author, James Rotondi, Fripp's "string brands vary, but the gauges generally run from a heavy bottom string of .046 to .048 and a high string at ,009 or .010" Bear in mind that the Guitar Craft recommended gauges were probably meant for acoustic guitars, hence the heavier sets as opposed to those listed as Fripp's gauges. Mike V ScrutinizerMA at aol dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 10:16:19 -0500 From: "bocephus" Subject: Torn + Bozzio + Karn = Polytown In reply to Chris (RadioactiveToy71 - a ptree fan perhaps?) in ET 818, the CD in question is Polytown by David Torn with some of the meanest gtr atmospheres ever put on CD. Bozzio supplys busy batterie, whilst Mick Karn fretless basses away. Most Eters should also be familiar with an earlier work by Torn with Mark Isham, Bill B and Tony called Cloud about Mercury, one of the most underrated pieces of music I have ever heard. Though a similar lineup to BLUE (Isham vice Isham), it is TOTALLY different than the BLUE stuff (Note: I do like BLUE). At least one CAM tune was covered live by BLUE. There is supposed to be a new re-release of CAM coming to the US market on ECM, though I don't know if it will be remastered. I have a few live recordings of both Poly and CAM that show both groups were monsters on stage as well as studio (though the CAM shows featured slightly different personnel due to other obligations). - -- Cheers, bec ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 12:09:23 -0500 (EST) From: Steven Sullivan Subject: HDCD > > OK, now that we've confused everyone with bandwidths, frequencies, etc. I > do have a question about this (which I am sure has been answered elsewhere > on the net). The KC releases are 24 bit/96khz releases. Many new DVD > players are capable of playing this back. But DO they play this back any > differently than a CD player? No. Audio CDs, even those where the master was transferred from analog at 24/96 (as is the case of the KC remasters), are 16 bit/44kHz in playback. During the mastering process te higher resolution info is 'dithered down' to 16/44 by various types of digital trickery, which supposedly retains the extra information. CD players, HDCD players, DVD players: all play back audio CDs at 16/44. (The exceptions are DVD-Audio and SACD media, and the audio tracks of DVD videos) - -S. "Certain areas of electronica smell of prog occasionally. I try not to notice." -- Thom Yorke ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 12:59:36 -0600 From: "David F. Snyder" Subject: Vortexan Sessions revisited I saw Trey with EJ and JMarotta, too, in Austin (many ditinguished drummers in the audience: Max Weinberg and PM, amongst others). There was that one solo of Trey's that was not from the Johnson opus, sending shivers up me timbers from the sheer beauty and ingenuity of it. In his diary, TG mentioned that these three might get back together. I agree that Trey's holding holding down the low end was different from his previous work, but that prolly has something to do with EJ's heavily blues-influenced style, but still it would be cool if they did get on tape, but with EJ that could take years. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Mar 01 17:59:04 -0500 From: Michael Hackett Subject: Re: HDCD Randall dot Hammill at hartfordlife dot com wrote: >The KC releases are 24 bit/96khz releases. Many new DVD >players are capable of playing this back. But DO they play this back any >differently than a CD player? The releases are not 24/96, but the mastering was. They had to convert the result down to 16/44.1 (with HDCD encoding to simulate 18-20 bit resolution) for release on CD. No DVD player will treat these discs as anything but a regular HDCD. However, what this means is that releasing DVD-A versions of the albums will be a cinch, now that the tapes have been converted and mastered at 24/96. THAT'S what I'm waiting for. >I don't think my current DVD Player does (I have to check it), >but the new one I am getting will. I think most DVD players ought to be able to play a 24/96 signal, since the original DVD video spec includes up to (I think) two tracks of 24/96 as an option. In fact, many audiophile labels have already been issuing audio recordings in DVD video format for a couple years (sometimes referred to as DAD, as opposed to DVD-A, the new audio format). Granted, the converters in a lot of inexpensive video-oriented players probably aren't very good, but if the signal is there, they will play it. However, the new KC CDs do =not= have such an encoding. - -- Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 21:47:48 EST From: Leftsimeez at aol dot com Subject: ITCOTCK message I was wondering, could someone explain the "spiritual message" in ITCOTCK to me. Do you mean the song or the album when you mention ITCOTCK? ~Bruce PearSon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 21:45:24 -0500 From: "budlet" Subject: Technical Stuff and Crimson's Golden Age Some technical tidbits. The mastering rate of newly mastered CDs only has an indirect relationship with the sound quality experienced from CDs. CDs always have 16 bit, 44 KHz-worth of information (except with the quasi-exception of HDCD). Remastering at 24/96 only allows for fairly advanced digital filtering* so that remasters can sound better, the CD is still 16/44. A lot of the time, the remaster sounds better simply because the jitter incurred in most early digital masters has been greatly reduced by improvements in technology. As for HDCD, it should be noted that these discs can still be played in regular CD players, meaning the information still has to appear to be 16/44 to old players. Squeezing out the extra resolution with an HDCD-capable decoder is therefore quite a trick, and involves hiding extra resolution via spread-spectrum techniques in unused bandwidth. Some people (including myself) can apparently hear artifacts left over from the HDCD remastering (but I love HDCD anyway...play a regular disc on an HDCD player after you've listened to an HDCD and you're ears will be dissapointed). According to interviews I have read with Pacific Microsonics folks (the inventors of HDCD), the effective resolution of HDCD is something like 17.5 bits. * As for "not needing" the extra resolution of emerging formats such as SACD and DVD-Audio, a host of mastering and recording experts have pretty much converged on the opposite answer. Aside from the argument concerning whether inaudible frequencies can contribute to the percieved quality of sound, 24/96 is really being driven by more technical reasons. The sharp cut-off filters used in 16/44 apparently cause ringing in the surviving signal (this is Gibb's phenomenon, I believe), which degrades the quality of the signal. By moving to 24/96, superior digital filtering techniques can be utilized. Anyone I have ever heard of that has been able to spend time with the new formats says that the quality difference is astounding. On to more important issues. Reading Fripp's diary on the DGM websaite indicates that Crimson is already putting together new material. I think, therefore, that this means that from the Projekcts until now, Crimson has produced more music than any time in its history. The "Golden Age" of Crimson is now. Discuss! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 11:31:54 EDT From: Josette484 at aol dot com Subject: TREY GUNN SO...HAS ANYONE HERE VENTURED FORWARD AND LISTENED TO TREY'S SOLO PROJECT? IT IS THE SINGLE MOST AMAZING THING I HAVE EVER HEARD.....IT COMES ( POINTER AND THUMB FINGER JUST EVER SO SLIGHTLY APART) THIS CLOSE TO THE BEST PLAYING I'VE EVER HEARD BY JEFF BECK.......AND I'VE NEVER SAID THAT BEFORE! XOXOXOX JOSETTE ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 10:36:10 -0500 From: steve Subject: Re: SACD Surround > >> a few CDs are available with that >> twist as well. Robert has indicated that he intends to rerelease the >> Soundscapes CDs in DTS surround - I can't wait for those... Nick Leobner: > > Not possible on any CD format. Possible on DVD-Video and DVD-Audio... > but not on SACD (which is stereo only at present). Philips is just now releasing the first multi-channel SACD player. If memory serves, it's $2000 U.S. - - Steve ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 13:51:03 EDT From: MarkJX at aol dot com Subject: SACD In a message dated 4/1/01 9:10:24 AM Mountain Daylight Time, et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk writes: > Maybe for a short while. I was at THE show in Las Vegas, which is for high end audio, with my friend Roy from Green Mountain Audio, who makes the best speakers in the world for linearity and image (to my ears). He had on loan a Phillips SACD player that decoded all 6 channels. We demo'd a SACD of Tubular Bells and Far More Drum, with all channels firing, so the hardware DOES exist. My biggest complaint is the production: Just like any tool, it's easy to overuse the surround channels, which BELLS did more than DRUM. Soundscapes would be perfect for this medium, as you can truly be immersed virtually in the concert setting. Another performance I would love to see on SACD, and I pray that it was recorded such that it can be realized, is Frank Zappa's "The Yellow Shark". If I remember correctly, Frank set up a SIX channel sound system for the halls such that the sound would surround the audience. Almost as good as being there. Mark J. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 21:24:36 +0100 From: "Andrew Jones" Subject: DTS/ DVD-A etc Somebody wrote: > > DVD-A can be played on DVD players. > > Not true. DVD-Audio can only be played back on a DVD-Audio player (many > of which also play DVD-Video - to give it it's correct title). Actually all the DVD audio discs on the market can play on DVD video players as they either have Dolby 5.1 or DTS 5.1 sound tracks as well as the DVD audio information > > a few CDs are available with that > > twist as well. Robert has indicated that he intends to rerelease the > > Soundscapes CDs in DTS surround - I can't wait for those... > > Not possible on any CD format. There's over a hundred DTS CDs out there- but you need a DTS decoder to get any music out of them- its just white noise otherwise. Check out www.dtsonline.com for details. Andrew Jones ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 15:45:55 -0500 From: "W. Stuart Kirkham" Subject: Album Review: The Sound of Surprise I too have been surprised over silence surrounding the release of this album. Perhaps silence IS the sound of surprise, at least in this instance. Also, another poster has recently turned-on yet another poster to Earthworks via A Part and Yet Apart, not mentioning that a new album had been released. Anyhow, I have procured the new album, listened to it several times, and like it. It seems to me to be a much more sophisiticated album. By this I mean that the style has progressed somewhat...with A Part and Yet Apart (the first album with the all-acoustic band of Steve Hamilton - piano, Patrick Clahar - - reeds, and Mark Hodgson - upright bass) there were two songs, "No Truce with the Furies" and "Footloose and Fancy Free" that grabbed my attention right away (high-energy and quite raucous pieces), and other pieces that engaged my listening mind in other ways ("Some Shiver, While He Cavorts"). These songs followed the theme-and-variation style of jazz, with more concentration on the theme than the variation. I saw them in concert at the Theatre of the Living Arts in Philadelphia, and they paid much more attention to the variations through extended jamming. The new CD is much truer to this extended jamming and variations trend. None of the songs on this CD grab me right away as NTWTF and FAFF did, but the album as a whole holds my attention much longer throughout. In short, it is an improvement over APAYA, highly listenable and well worth the $$$ if you like these ventures of Bruford's (the whole band rocks - or jazzes?? - an observation I made after seeing them live is that the cult of personality surrounding Billy B must be very frustrating to these excellent young musicians - it must be difficult for them to get the recognition they deserve). One last note: The US release contains some video footage of the band playing. It is done in the same style as the video in Heavy ConstruKction (i.e., it requires a password that you do not need if you just open the CD in My Computer or Windows Explorer and navigate down to the video file - earthw.wmv - itself - I still need the password myself...). A difference is that only one song is played, and it is introduced by sub-titles (they're getting fancy at BTV or DGM or whoever did it). The only problem is, the song is introduced as "Never the Same Way Once" but it is actually "Some Shiver, While he Cavorts." Chalk up another one for the guys at Indiscipline Global Mobile...don't these guys actually listen to the music??? One last thing: who came up with the phrase "Elephant Talk" anyway? - -- W. Stuart Kirkham PhD. Graduate student Department of Geography University of Texas at Austin wskirkham at mail dot utexas dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 17:46:36 -0400 From: "David Schroeder" Subject: Wetton Ken Brown summed up the entire John Wetton 'syndrome' brilliantly in ET 822. I must admit that I am one of those people who keep hoping John will release something more in the line of Crimson & UK, but have been let down with each new studio release. I was happy with the collaboration with Richard Palmer James when 'Monkey Buisness' was released, and this got my hopes up for future releases. Futhermore, the live cds that I've picked up from time to time sound great, especially when he ventures back to his early days. Also, the work he did with Steve Hackett was classic and to hear John sing 'In the Court of the Crimson King' was a treat for the ears, since I don't think Crimson preformed that song live when Wetton was in the group. So, when the new cd was released, and I saw that Fripp & McDonald were making appearances, I thought 'Hey, John might be going back to his roots'. WRONG. I had even orded the Japanese cd just in case the extra track was a good one. Like Ken Brown stated, John has found his stlye as being more like ASIA and nothing like KC and that's what we should expect. Accept or 'move on'. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 13:08:15 From: "Matt D" Subject: Surprising silence over Sound of Surprise This actually is a really good disc. As with the last Earthworks's disc it is recorded extremely well. The compositions are a bit better than the first Earthworks disc. The CD is enhanced and contains a video of a live performance. For all the drummers and Bruford fans out there this is some of his best work if you ask me. Definatly worth it. *********************************************************** Matt Deibert Check out Spacestation Integration MP3's www.ampcast.com/ssi www.spacestationintegration.com *********************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 10:33:24 -0500 From: "Sandra J Prow" Subject: It arises from the murk... This is me posting as I promised for the Beginner's NST Circle from this weekend so we can get together and keep "Abstractionist's" alive. Keep the footprints muddy. Is King Crimson prog? No, King Crimson *is*. Stop trying to categorize everything and everybody and just enjoy what is offered to you, in whatever form it takes. Sandra p.s. what? Y'all ET'ers don't remember me? sheesh. I'm near Raleigh now. Email me. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 10:58:06 -0400 From: "dennis wiens" Subject: techno-talk and sound I understand some of the techo - talk that has been going on about CD DVD etc., but only very little. Most of it is beyond my understanding. I see that there are some people that seem to prefer the sound of vinal and some that wish to explain it technologically [and vise versa]. :-o In my un-educated technological [fictional?] musings of the future, I see music, video, computer data, internet, radio, TV, phone etc. all going to a central console with only one recording media. [what will happen to the VCR if/when we can record to disk ... which can also be used for audio and data etc. etc. etc.?] So in thinking about this, I listened to "Lizard" on vinal. [I used Lizard because of the wide variety of sounds etc. offered] Even though it is old, I have taken very good care of all my vinal recordings. Then I listened to "Lizard" 24 bit re-mastered CD. WOW. If it wasn't for the artwork on the vinal record, it would be gone. There are things I could hear on the CD I had no idea were there! [esp. in wind instraments] I don't know about the techno-babble .... I know what I can hear. So much for my technologically un-educated opinion. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #823 ********************************