Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #822 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 822 Sunday, 1 April 2001 Today's Topics: KC sounds like what? Stick and ProjeKcts Re: Marachinos variosos John Wetton Re: lyrical messages (and not so...) digitalia " a great analog master" Adrian Belew in the upcoming Tori Amos album Tool and KC Re: Audio Myths Happy the Man, Gryphon Re: kClassiKcal KCrimson? Re: HDCD Re: HDCD Re: Audio Myths Taboo ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 12:20:38 -0500 From: "Buddy Fries" Subject: KC sounds like what? Long time lurker, first time poster, yadda yadda yadda... About 20 seconds ago, I was listening to the 11-23-73 Amsterdam version of Easy Money. My co-worked commented, "That sounds like James Bond music or something. Like when he just killed somebody and he's running away. Or a 70s TV show." Dracula? James Bond? just one more TV nightmare? later - Buddy Fries http://world.care2.com/drbud GE d? s-,s !g p?+ au a- w+ v++ C++ US->++++,C+ P?>+++ L>++ !3 E-- N+ W- M-- V po Y+(--) t 5 j++ R-(--) G'''' tv- b+ D--(++) B-- e>++ u*(++) h! f* !r !n y http://www.care2.com - Get your Free e-mail account that helps save Wildlife! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 14:33:31 EST From: Leftsimeez at aol dot com Subject: Stick and ProjeKcts I want to say thank you to all of you who supplied info on the Chapman stick. You were very helpful. I have never heard any of the ProjeKct pieces. Would you recommend me buying the ProjeKct box set? How would you rate those 4 cds? And also, have any of the smaller groups (?) made some albums different to whats in the box set? thank you. ~Bruce PearSon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 14:35:14 -0500 (EST) From: dhosek at w114 dot web2010 dot com Subject: Re: Marachinos variosos > From: "Daniel Branco P." > Subject: mariqueras varias > First, I heard that Levin played with Pink Floyd, but I don`t know in which > disk of PF he played; I guess that`s "A Momentary Lapse of Reason", but I'm > not really sure. Yep, that's exactly right. I don't think that he played on the supporting tour, though. IIRC, that was the beginning of Guy Pratt's involvement with the band (incidentally, for some really tasty bass work from Guy Pratt, as well as a great, under-rated prog/pop album, check out the recently re-released Toy Matinee disk). > Third, don`t know who asked it also, but I repeat the answer: What`s exactly > a chapman stick? I`ve some references and ideas, but I want to know more. The Stick is a guitar-like instrument whose sound is generated by the sound of the finger pressing the string against the fretboard. The invention of this technique has been claimed by all manner of musicians, and I'm sure that they're all sincere, but I "invented" it myself when in college (until shortly afterwards I was told that that was how Stanley Jordan played). The standard stick has 10 strings (although there are 8 and 12 string models as well), with the bass side tuned in fifths and the treble in fourths. You can find out lots at http://www.stick.com The Warr guitar, which is Trey Gunn's instrument of choice, is similar in conception to the Stick, but is designed so that it can be tapped or strummed like a regular guitar. -dh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 15:04:33 -0500 From: "Brown, Ken" Subject: John Wetton Having read the comments recently here and comments made before and in other places it amazes me that people still don't get it. Crim-era Wetton is gone, he is replaced by Asia-era Wetton. Wetton has it in head he can be a ROCK STAR by doing boring verse-chorus-verse songs. It started on the first UK LP, but Bruford and Holdsworth stopped most of it (Time to Kill, listen and hear Asia). With them gone the second UK cd featured some very formulaic music. 'Nothing to Lose' is standard Asia fare, verse, chorus, verse baby. I had gotten the first Wetton solo LP when it came out (way back when) and again it was more of the same. In Asia he really got to go crazy with it and with the success of the LP his fate was sealed (Oh so cynical). I certainly wouldn't blame Geoff Downes for this. I cringe now when I listen to the first Asia LP (and yes I loved it when it came out), cuz I can imagine how wonderful it could have been if Wetton/Downes had a little more imagination and took some more chances with the material. Who can blame Wetton, if he was successful doing something one way why change it! Or maybe he can't write better tunes? Ever think of it that way? Maybe that is way he can write them. Maybe he needed Fripp and Bruford to curb his formula-like writing style. His live show now just seems to be a greatest hits package with a couple of new tunes. He is finished, he has entered dino-land, home of the over-the-hill rocker who is just doing what he does by rote. There is no desire or willingness to try anything new. Crim and Tull might the only bands from the early 70s to have escaped this tragedy! So please stop thinking the next Wetton CD he will return to his glory days. He won't, maybe by now he can't. He has to want to and that desire has probably been snuffed out long ago. (Besides it's over 25 years since his time with Crim, he's been doing what he is doing now for 25 years, 25 years! do ya really think he is going to change??) Keep the Faith (in the Music) ((no matter how cynical I might sound I do)) ken ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 15:25:26 -0500 From: Brian Preston Subject: Re: lyrical messages (and not so...) What is this I read about the 'espiritual messages' in lyrics of Sinfield vs. Belew??? Ha, another example of man's simple neurology tricking it's self perception. Belew's message is firmly rooted in 'Humanism', which may occasionally throw a glancing nod to the 'spooky elements of superstition' just to pull at the corners of our firmly planted mouths. However, the grounding is certainly more in the observational motifs of quantum theory/chaos and science and parody in general. Ah, it makes me heart warm and go pitter patter! Sinfield? Hmmm, Robert would say... perhaps, appropriate for the audience of the late 60's early 70's. Romantic, spiritual? Fluffy and sweet... I guess I prefer dirt, dinasours and studies in lasar technology. np: Space Groove (which is pretty cool except when Ade tries a bit to hard to be a syncopated V-drummer!) nr: Consciousness Explained - highly recommended out... Onomata http://www.umbrellarecordings.com/feature.html Smokin'Granny www.meta4ik.home.mindspring.com/smokingranny ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 15:23:32 -0500 (EST) From: Steven Sullivan Subject: digitalia > Date: Tue, 27 Mar 01 03:19:15 -0500 > From: Michael Hackett > Subject: Re: Audio Myths > > Ted White wrote: > >The simple fact is that *more* signal information is lost in any analog > >reproduction via mass-reproduction (that is, on any LP, as opposed to the > >original master tape [...]) than is lost in digital conversion to CD. > > A lot of recording and mastering engineers would disagree with you there. Not many of them ever bother to do blind A/B tests, though. And I doubt many of them think that an *LP* is a more accurate copy of the master tape than a good digital copy. They might like the *sound* of LP, but that's another matter. > >There are a number of reasons for this, > >but the main one is that you can duplicate from duplicates in the digital > >realm without signal degradation. > > It's true that once you get into the digital realm, you can avoid further > degradation of the signal, although it's not as simple as many believe, > and it takes some effort to get it back into the analog realm intact. The bottom line is that you can get it back intact, though. Which is not the case for master tape-->vinyl transfer. > >Listening to a CD can be like listening to the master tape in studio > >playback [...] > > Not if the master tape was analog, or better than 16-bit digital. Again, the only scientific way to determine this is by blind A/B testing. > Even > the new SACD and DVD-A formats do not fully capture the original > recording, according to a number of engineers who have played with the > new formats, but they are much closer. Certainly, at the consumer end of > the market, DAT and CD are far better than cassettes, but most of us can > only dream of what a great analog master sounds like. There are differences of opinion among engineers as well as listeners as to whether SACD and DVD-A *per se* represent significant improvements compared to well-implemented 16/44 digital (versus whether the differences are due to care in mastering). You can read some on rec.audio.high-end. -S. "Certain areas of electronica smell of prog occasionally. I try not to notice." -- Thom Yorke ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 23:28:26 From: "Spear man" Subject: " a great analog master" >but most of us can only dream of what a great analog master sounds like.< try epsilon in malaysian pale by edgar froese (a great analog master) --spearman np--les claypool's flying frog brigade--thela hun ginjeet 9/2/00 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 20:21:03 -0600 From: "Gerardo Liedo" Subject: Adrian Belew in the upcoming Tori Amos album From Rolling Stone Daily today: AMOS ALBUM DUE IN SEPTEMBER TORI AMOS is working on a new album at her home studio in Cornwall, England. Amos, who is producing the album herself, has enlisted KING CRIMSON guitarist ADRIAN BELEW, BECK's bassist JUSTIN MELDAL-JOHNSEN and longtime Amos percussionist MATT CHAMBERLAIN for the sessions. The as-yet-untitled album is set for release on Atlantic in September, and will be Amos' first effort since 1999's "To Venus and Back," a double disc composed of new material and live recordings. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 20:01:06 -0800 From: "Mathew Duckwitz" Subject: Tool and KC Someone mentioned that if KC played with a newer band they would prefer it to be a progressive band, unlike TOOL. I must really take offense to that as TOOL is the band that opened my eyes to KC and TOOL is definitely progressive; though, would fit more likely in progressive metal than rock. Furthermore, i think a lot of people would get a lot of seeing a band that contributed to TOOL and we'd see some more KC fans which they deserve. Just my opinion. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 22:53:59 -0500 From: "Antoine W. Caron" Subject: Re: Audio Myths Please disregard my posting about what I thought Ted White said. I totally misread. Apologies to Ted. _______aWc______ Antoine W. Caron awc at sympatico dot ca http://awc.iuma.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 21:07:43 -0800 From: "Brian Pearson" Subject: Happy the Man, Gryphon Well, with all the recent blah-blah rah-rah about which bands are (or aren't) "Progressive," here's two first-raters that got neglected. Happy the Man was active in the Baltimore/D.C. area during the late 1970's and played some very virtuosic music employing complex/compound time signatures, jazzy chord sequences and scales, and quirky-but-beguiling melodies with odd phrase lengths and a fair amount of modulation between keys. They had a very original and creative "sound" incorporating rock, jazz, and classical influences; they used guitar, bass, keyboards, drums and woodwinds to good effect. I'm not sure what (if any) of their work is currently available, but it's well worth checking out. Gryphon was a mid-70s Anglo/French collaboration with deep roots in the Folk and early Classical traditions, but they liked to mix modern and ancient instruments for a unique sound. Their early work was more Medieval-Folk; their later albums more electro-Baroque, but all wonderful music and worth searching for. Definite appeal to KC "Lizard" fans. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 01:51:08 -0500 From: "Ross Mohan" Subject: Re: kClassiKcal KCrimson? David Kirkdorffer said: >I was listening to Pacific 321 (Mouvement Symphonique No.1) by Honnegger > today. VERY Crimson-esque. || Interesting....good tip...I hope to check this out soon, thanks. I have been wondering whether to plunge into the body of work by...er, "Joe the Prolific", but haven't found a way to do so without plunking down major coin. So, again, always good to have a tip on new music. ( I really must look into my local library!) >Can readers suggest other "KclassiKcal" pieces that are remenicient of > "kCassikC" Kcrimson Vaughan Williams, and in particular his Sinfonia Antartica, come to mind. || Well...I am a bit of a Soundscape junkie, and I find that some of the work of Joep Franssens is not entirely alien in "feel" to pieces like "Blessing of Tears" and "That Which Passes", or even, briefly, some of the more challenging parts of "Gates of Paradise". (Ok, all right then, I'll admit it: some parts of that last piece scare the hell out of me, but -- wow -- what powerful stuff. Joep Franssens has a three part piece (don't recall if he calls it a symphony or not ) and a nifty little ride called "Dwaalicht". If I knew more about music, I could explain more of the structure of the music, but he is a bit simpler thematically, and a bit more melancholic and alternately optimistic than Mr. Fripp, albeit in a less challenging way. ( I mean, when you make it past a "Wailing" to "Acceptance" it's a long way from anything the "normal listener" ( to be taken in the strict statistical sense ) is likely to be willing to tolerate or, indeed, withstand. Oh, and there's a nifty little band local (to Washington, DC, USA) called Boud Deun that has some distinctly Crimsonesque bits on it. Bit of a surprise, that. > Any others? || None leap to mind, but here's a little smile for you:. Driving along today, trying to pick up radio news of the latest violation of common sense, long-range thought, and decency coming out of our appointed leader, I forget that I had left my CD player ( which is stocked with KC and Soundscapes and operates through the radio in the car ) on and spinning away. So, as I skipped through radio stations, I was astounded to hear some wonderful music come "over the airwaves". I thought with some considerable happiness "are they actually playing live cuts from Heavy ConstruKction on the *radio*?!" until i realized i had simply switched to the station at the end of the dial that feeds through the CD signal. Sheesh! For a moment, I thought something remarkable and wonderful had happened to music programming in the nation's capitol. Well, happy listening....I am eager to hear others thoughts along David's lines.... - Ross Mohan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 14:06:56 +0100 From: Nick Loebner Subject: Re: HDCD Befoire this HCD/CD/DVD-A/DVD-V thing is interdit by Toby:- Randall dot Hammill at hartfordlife dot com wrote: > I believe that the KC remasters are in 24-bit/96khz (pretty sure about the > 24-bit, not sure about the second number). The technology used in m,astering these employs 20-bit samples (i.e. measurements) taken 96000 time a second. Nevertheless, they are still stored on a 16-bit 44.1kHz format CD. The only exception is that if you use a player with an HDCD chip you can decode (effectively) 20-bits per sample. This increases the dynamic range. > DVD-A can be played on DVD players. Not true. DVD-Audio can only be played back on a DVD-Audio player (many of which also play DVD-Video - to give it it's correct title). Note that this is confusing because you can also buy DVD discs containing DTS Audio only (i.e. no pictures). This is an specialist interim format allowing 24-bit 96kHz audio. This is not the same as DVD-A. These discs will play on DVD-Video players! No wonder everyone is confused! > a few CDs are available with that > twist as well. Robert has indicated that he intends to rerelease the > Soundscapes CDs in DTS surround - I can't wait for those... Not possible on any CD format. Possible on DVD-Video and DVD-Audio... but not on SACD (which is stereo only at present). - Nick. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 14:14:45 +0100 From: Nick Loebner Subject: Re: HDCD Randall dot Hammill at hartfordlife dot com wrote: > > The KC releases are 24 bit/96khz releases. Many new DVD > players are capable of playing this back. Not from any CD, because the CD format only encodes 16bits 441kHz audio. The HDCD discs however, when played back on an HDCD-equipped CD or DVD-Video player can "reconstruct" the additional 4 bits per sample, but that's all you're goona get on a CD. - Nick. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 14:09:08 +0100 From: Nick Loebner Subject: Re: Audio Myths Michael Hackett wrote: > Nowadays, most pop/rock CDs are so compressed that only a fraction > of this vast dynamic range is even being used. Now that is most definitely true! - Nick. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 16:11:11 -0500 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: Taboo Toby writes: >>>>>Folks, After this issue, the thread about whether Adrian belongs in Crimson or not, or whatever, is a dead one. As is whether Jethro Tull, or anyone else, is or isn't "progressive", whatever the hell that is. :-)>>>>> I would like to begin the following thread: Is Adrian Belew "progressive"? Looking forward to months of silly posts. Thank you all in advance. [ :-) -- Toby ] ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #822 ********************************