Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #820 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 820 Friday, 30 March 2001 Today's Topics: NEWS: two new dead threads, as of now Progressive Rock Defined? URBAN MUSIC FOR THE 21st CENTURY Subject: "Wal-Mart/NASCAR" & "Collaboration Question" Jethro Tull...Prog. Rock? prog smog Whether or not Adrian belongs in KC Re: Prog Rock TV Show Re: Prog Surprising silence over Sound of Surprise KC Mellotron Trivia more on Audio Myths Micheal Destefano on Prog Rock, and my opinion Spocks Beard, Flower Kings, et al... Fripp with Radiohead ! Who is progressive? Et'ers To prog or not to prog ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 00:33:58 -0700 From: Toby Howard Subject: NEWS: two new dead threads, as of now Folks, After this issue, the thread about whether Adrian belongs in Crimson or not, or whatever, is a dead one. As is whether Jethro Tull, or anyone else, is or isn't "progressive", whatever the hell that is. :-) Cheers Toby ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 00:33:58 -0700 From: Hb Subject: Progressive Rock Defined? <> Hello friends. I have been in the ethers, reading this newsletter now for sometime. All of this discussion about 'Progressive Rock' has spurred me to respond to the current discussion. I have my opinions, like everyone, but what I'm attempting to do is shine some light, and not judge others' views. I don't claim to be 'right', but do feel I can clear some things up and perhaps stir a few brain cells.. I feel that if one is to discuss "Progressive Rock", they should have some form of definition. From what I perceive from the latest discussions, people seem to have their own definition of what "Progressive Rock is. This is fine, but if one does not define their interpretation, then we all shall spiral into didactic decay.. First off, if you haven't read "Listening to the Future: The Time of Progressive Rock 1968-1978", I recommend it. I should state that I don't always agree with the author (Bill Martin), but he makes some valid points and sheds some light on some often looked over bands. Bill is a Philosophy professor, a bass player and a rabid Yes fan, so bear this in mind! Bill's breakdown is thus: Progressive Rock was/is the carrier of utopian, visionary and critical trace of the sixties, carried forward. Technical Virtuosity (?) Conceptual Density Synthesis of other music forms (non-rock music) (!) Extended composition/improvisation Counterpoint (two or more melodic lines playing off each other..) Wait, hold that thought! I don't agree with all of this necessarily, but its food for thought. Bill also quotes from Edward Macan's book "Rocking the Classics", which came out around the same time (1998): "The whole underlying goal of Progressive Rock-to draw together rock, classical, jazz, folk, and avant-garde styles into a new metastyle that would supersede them all-is inherently optimistic.." Now, having put forth these "filters", I have to say there is a great deal of gray area here, which is where many of the previous posts tended to be, in my mind. Zappa, Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull, The Moody Blues, Phish, and Ozric Tentacles (to name a few), are not "Prog", per se, but they did put out material that one could call "Prog". ..and while ITCOTCK is the perfect example of Progressive Rock, King Crimson certainly teeters on the verge.. (I see why Mr. Fripp has attempted to remove Crim from this label!) The other gray areas for me are: using the term Art Rock (can we be abit more vague?); the distinction between Prog and Psychedelic Rock; and the distinction between Prog and Fusion. This is were things bog down. I admit I use to use the term Art Rock back in the '70's. Today, when I think of Art Rock, I think of David Bowie...It has almost nothing to do with Prog. Pink Floyd, The Moody Blues, et al are Psychedelic Rock. Did they ever play Prog..probably.. same time frame, influences, drugs..Fusion is another whole discussion, but Mahavishnu Orchestra, Bruford's 1st solo LP, U.K, and Brand-X...these groups are co-mingling very closely with the Fusion world. (Another book, "The Music's all that Matters: A History of Progressive Rock", By Paul Stump, goes so far as to distinguish between 'alternative' and 'mainstream' Progressive Rock...I'll leave that inquiry for you..) So, my point here is to really point out the unclarity in all of this categorization. We could spend ions arguing about what KIND of music our ears perceive.. I'd rather turn people on to music they never heard before and visa versa. (Below is a list of music for the curious to investigate!) I gather the majority of folks tuned into Crim have 'big ears' already..Let us also develop "big minds" and "big hearts". I hope this has been helpful in someway. With respect to that Top 10 Prog..we all have our own! (By the way, ZAPPA has his own category!) PEACE, Howard Soft Machine (through #6) Elton Dean/ Keith Tippett/ Gordon Beck/ Ian Carr Spontaneous Music Ensemble Music Improvisation Company Van der Graff/ Peter Hammill Dixie Dregs/ Steve Morse PFM Caravan Camel Magma, Univers Zero, Art Zoyd CAN Banco Area Henry Cow Gong/Early Steve Hillage Bondage Fruit Porcupine Tree Sun Ra Art Ensemble of Chicago M Base Edgard Varese Webern Toru Takemitsu Elliot Carter Olivier Messiaen George Antheil <> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 04:13:17 -0500 From: "MALCOLM XERXES" Subject: URBAN MUSIC FOR THE 21st CENTURY TUEMAR27/2001/03:51 PARLIAMENT OF PACHYDERMS, Good morrow, one and all! I had the experience recently of sitting at my keyboard while one of the "RED" covers featured on SCHIZOID DIMENSION: A tribute To KING CRIMSON was blasting from the speakers. Suddenly, I found myself thinking: "Hello! I never noticed that particular tonality in the guitar harmony before...I really like it!" It was only when the piece ended that I realised what I had been hearing was an upstairs neighbour using a high-powered electric drill, the pitch of which had whined in harmony with the melody! I laughed aloud, as I was reminded of the occasion whereon I had played the vinyl version of ROBERT FRIPP: "EXPSOSURE" at a bandmate's home in 1990. On that occasion, the fire alarm had sounded (as it always did during the small hours of 03:00 - 05:00), and my friend was going mad from the noise. I immediately placed the needle on "BREATHLESS", and his headache ceased instantly, as he marvelled at the way the piece was complemented by the fire alarm. Indeed, the piece has never sounded quite as good to my ear since then, devoid as it is of that racket, but I have played it many times since when assaulted by noise pollution such as klaxons, sirens, and other unwelcome aural stimuli to be found in any thriving metropolis. The inspiration came to me because I had read an article on MR. ADRIAN BELEW in the early 1980's wherein an anecdote was related of how he had thought that the dogs barking outside the building "fit perfectly" with a piece that the late MR. FRANK ZAPPA was playing to him at the time. Some people think me a hopless fanboy, but that lesson serves me well to this day, and I publicly thank MR. BELEW for helping me to recognise that "THE ORDER OF THE UNIVERSE" often only SEEMS disharmonious and cacophonous. MALCOLM XERXES http://pub92.ezboard.com/blevel9 http://members.home.net/specopfloyd/home.html http://www.angelfire.com/music/a1000m ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 10:40:50 +0200 From: mherrera at es dot ibm dot com Subject: Subject: "Wal-Mart/NASCAR" & "Collaboration Question" Regarding the "Wal-Mart / NASCAR" hearings, I remember last summer I was walking with my sister in a big local mall when I suddenly relized that the music played through the P.A. was "Cat Food"... go figure!, Cat Food as mall-muzak!... I had a coupla seconds of complete astonishment. My sister even asked if something was wrong! And about the (silly) thread of desired collaborations I couldn't resist to drop in.... I would love to hear a CD of Fripp-Bjork. I know it has been already proposed but... wouldn't it be nice? Manuel Herrera Shameless KC Fanatic since '74 Spain ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 02:19:52 -0800 From: "Ehrcraft" Subject: Jethro Tull...Prog. Rock? Wow! Go away for a few days, and the ET's just come flying in. from ET #817...Neil Corkindale wrote... "I don't wish to flame anyone, but how on earth can Jethro Tull be labeled "progressive"?" Another attempt at trying to pigonhole a very diverse band. Sure thay use acoustic insturments, (drums, guitars, flutes, piano, marimba, mandolin, bells, etc.). But from very early on synthesisers have always had a place in Tull. As well as Martin Barre's very electric guitars...hell even mellotrons! The complex song structures and detail of arrangements are, what I think puts Tull smack in the middle of the progressive movement. A few albums in the 70's using elements of English and Scottish folk and folklore and countryside themes integrated with the more boisterous world of rock music is what "prog" is all about. Try listening to "A" with Eddie Jobson on keyboards or (one of my fav's) "Underwraps", both recordings are thick with synthesisers and complex aggressive and dangerous arrangements that are the trademark of progressive rock. Taking musical ideas from all over the map with meticulous attention to song structure and timing is what I feel is the progression within an area of music (rock) we are all on about here. .......or maybe I'm wrong, ...always a first time! Dave. ...A friends comment listening to TCOL, "It sounds like a row of black tanks coming over the brow of a hill during a thunderstorm!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 03:10:22 -0800 (PST) From: jan geerts Subject: prog smog Hack hack. Cough cough. How can one hear or see anything through this thick soup of labels ? boutros boutros gali, Jan "No, we're not playing prog rock. It's frog rock" Daevid Allen, 2000 Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 15:09:39 +0200 From: "Ben Blume" Subject: Whether or not Adrian belongs in KC I've been lurking for quite awhile now and after reading the last message from Robert Fripp's dairy about Adrian and his experience reading ET. I would like to suggest to Toby that he "BAN" the thread concerning whether or not Adrian belongs in KC or not. In my opinion the discussion on this subject has been flogged to death. It has definitely gone to far. Cheers, BBlume ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 08:48:26 -0500 From: Warren Melnick Subject: Re: Prog Rock TV Show Neil Corkindale wrote: I don't wish to flame anyone, but how on earth can Jethro Tull be labeled "progressive"? 1. Thick as a Brick 2. Passion Play even Living in the Past, the group's first and only single has that prog feel to it, and not only the 5/4 time sig. - ---------------- Warren Melnick Director of Research and Development Astata Corporation ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 08:54:34 -0500 From: Warren Melnick Subject: Re: Prog marty steinberg said: TRACE.....and Incredible Netherlands 70's "Prog Band" incorporating Classical and Rock Predating the Nice..OR Kieth Emersons E.L.P. Efforts. ( offshoots being FOCUS...and REFUGEE...) I think more importantly, the drummer, Ian Mosley, went on the replace the original drummer in Marillion and was instrumental in their rise to fame (at least in europe anyway) in the 1980s. If you like prog, Marillion's Misplaced Childhood is a must-have! Warren ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 16:49:57 -0600 From: Ibrahim Ata SEVER Subject: Surprising silence over Sound of Surprise Hi Everybody, Since its release date I am waiting for comments on Earthworks' new album but no body is seemed to be interested in writing or mentioning it. Is it because of any particular reason or...? Just curious. (I would have done that but I don't a have credit card to order and I couldn't find it in any shop in London) Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 18:07:07 GMT From: et-read at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Mike Dickson) Subject: KC Mellotron Trivia Jeff Wheeler wrote... > We played mostly the Philly / New Jersey / New York City circuit. If anyone > saw one of their shows, Steve (can't remember last name), the keyboardist > had in his rather expansive rig, a mellotron that was originally owned by > one Mr. Robert Fripp (or so I was told) and was used in the first two or > three KC albums, ITCOTCK, ITWOP and possibly Lizard. So if you saw one of > our shows you heard an original KC instrument! Hugely unlikely, to say the least. I have hear of about ten different people who claim to have or to have had 'the original King Crimson Mellotron', and none of them ever did. It's sort of like the way that about the same number of people claim to own the original 'Strawberry Fields' instrument. FIW, Robert still owns bothe the original ITCotKC Mellotron Mk-II and the subsequent ItWoP machine, the latter of which is in retirement at Streetly Electronics. > And yes the Mellotron is a finicky instrument. We were constantly having to > clean the tape heads - one for each key. And you had to be real careful not > to damage the tape whilst cleaning the instrument. The tapes are surprisingly robust, and cleaning the heads is hardly ever an issue, really. Cleaning the tape path is much more of a problem! Mike Dickson, Elephant Talk Administration Mellotron M400 #996 - Hammond T500 #252302 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 12:59:11 -0500 From: Joan Bull Subject: more on Audio Myths In reference to the Ted White's comments about analog & digital audio and Jack Lightfoot's comments: Most of my comments are based on what I've read in Recording magazine: Regarding hearing frequencies: There's anecdotal evidence that including frequencies above 15,000 Hz or so sounds better. "Why go 96K" is still open for discussion, headbangers notwithstanding. Regarding distortion: At least one study showed that people prefer a little distortion. Maybe it's habitual, maybe not. But the people in the study found a clean signal to be lifeless and were happier when a little distortion was added. Regarding the comparison of analog and digital: Other factors, such as the person(s) and equipments doing the recording, mixing, mastering, were ignored. For example, there's an XTC song "Beating of Hearts". At one point, there's a reference to "bombers in flight". On the LP I have, there's a very satisfying low rumble at that point. On the CD I have, there's no rumble. There's no mechanical reason for that rumble to have disappeared. So, it's hard to make a good comparison without the same person(s) and equipments (as much as possible) doing the processing. And then there's the quality of your playback system. And ... oh, nevermind. JoanBull ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 12:59:08 -0800 From: Andres Gomez Subject: Micheal Destefano on Prog Rock, and my opinion I totally agree on the focus Micheal gives to this discussion: the key word here is progressive. Yet there is a slight weight falling on the words "prog rock", which more than a genre has become a category where certain bands and songs, from a specific time lapse fit. I have always been uncomfortable with this definition, but it seems to persist in some minds. This mistaken conception is somewhat strong, to the point where me and my friends referred to some bands as being "prog-prog rock", which clearly has no coherent meaning, but it definitely did beat categorization. Prog rock has become, more than a musical philosophy of excellence, and a line of thought demanding effort, it has become a "box of old notes". Prog Rock, similar to a phylum in taxonomy contains many types of prog, and it is these specific characteristics that make certain types of music fit into it. As objective as a category may be, music goes beyond it, and it ultimately the listener who classfies it; classfiable or not. Andres Gomez ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 14:04:29 -0500 From: "Tim Roache" Subject: Spocks Beard, Flower Kings, et al... I am curious as to the Crim community's opinion of the music of Spocks Beard, The Flower Kings, Porcupine Tree, Under The Sun, and other "Neo-Prog" acts...The good, the bad, and the ugly. I would also be interested in Canterbury and Italian recommendations. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 21:04:27 +0200 From: "Bruno" Subject: Fripp with Radiohead ! Hi ETers, Well I agree, the dream Fripp collaboration would be with Radiohead, as Noah says in ET#817 ! Surely you DO HAVE to listen to "Kid A", 80's & 90's Crim Fans ! I thought about a collaboration with some ambient/rock project while listening to the remix album of No-Man (featuring Steve Wilson of Porcupine Tree) called "Flowermix" (released in '95) : You can hear beautiful Fripperies on the 1st track and some soundscapes, along with Trance loops and ambient keyboards & strings. Men, believe me, it sounds great ! (that's what I would call "prog" in the 90's or by now - excuse me fans of "old-school prog", I like that too ! (well, I suddenly remember there is also Mel Collins playing flute & sax on this album) Also, what would you think of a collaboration with AIR ? Bruno ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 14:43:35 -0500 From: Randall dot Hammill at hartfordlife dot com Subject: Who is progressive? For the ongoing debate about who is considered Prog, here is a long, but interesting article. I'm sure it is not definitive, but it does give a decent definition of Prog music. It does not seem to mention non-British or European bands (at least so far, I haven't read it all), So he does not reference Rush or Kansas, for example. I also did not see a reference to Pink Floyd, but I would guess he would classify them as Psychadelic. Personally, I would call early Floyd Psychadelic, or you could call them Experimental. KC could also be called Experimental, but the two bands approached the music from very different directions. The members of KC (originally, anyway) were all relatively well-trained musically speaking, whereas Floyd were less technically adept, but experimented heavily with sound and texture. Rush and Kansas were both heavily influenced by earlier Prog bands, in particular Yes. Geddy Lee has said that Chris Squire is a big influence on his playing, and especially on early Rush while he was still favoring the Rickenbacker he has a very Squire-like sound. Their techniques differ, however- Chris almost always uses a pick, where Geddy does not. Early Rush is also heavily influenced by Led Zeppelin, especially Alex Lifeson's playing. But after 2112 he really started developing his own style, and moved away from the power chord structure that the early albums favored to more open chord voices, taking a different approach to filling up the space in a trio. In many ways it is similar to the way Andy Summers played in the Police, Andy using a more jazz-based harmonic structure. Anyway, enough of my opinions, check out the link: http://www.yesworld.com/ctte_covach/Close_to_the_Edge.html Randy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 21:09:51 +0100 From: "Paul Owens" Subject: Et'ers How can a group that with such finesse debates the pointlessness of subjects like whether Phish are "prog or not" also discuss, with all the subtlety of an acrobat in a paraplegiec ward, the personal (John Wetton) and personnel (Adrian Belew) "problems" of their heros? Thomas, I dont know if John Wetton does have a problem with alcohol but I'm sure your comment, >"Show yourself some more self-respect !" contains all he needs to get through a life threatening disease. I had steeled myself upon joining that I may be letting myself in for month long debates about the string gauges of Robert Fripp. Should I have set my sights lower? john-paul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 22:29:51 +0200 From: "Trond Gjellum" Subject: To prog or not to prog I've been a progressive rock enthusiast for the last 15 years, and I've listend to a lot of different "progressive" bands, from Crimson to Yes, from Genesis to Univers Zero, from Magma to Manfred Mann's Earth Band, but I've never bothered to use a lot of energy to put a tag on the music I listen to. I simply enjoy good music made by musicians that like to put a twist or two inside their music to make it more intresting.Therfore I can listen to everything from U-Ziq to Thinking Plague on the same day. Just enjoy what you hear and throw away the tags that people always put on music. Trond ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #820 ********************************