Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #819 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 819 Wednesday, 28 March 2001 Today's Topics: NEWS: Bonus tracks on next Crimson remasters!!! fanboys, whatcha gonna do Re: Prog Rock This is how Re: Get your act together JOHN! Errors That Were Meant to Be Oh No, Jethro was veerry proggy The best of KC mariqueras varias Re: Audio Myths Frippian Influences Sabbath, Zeppelin, Psychedelia Vs. Progressive, Etc. Re: Audio Myths ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 00:18:11 -0500 From: Gary Davis Subject: NEWS: Bonus tracks on next Crimson remasters!!! Hi, folks: The latest Artist Shop newsletter is out and you'll find it in its entirety at . Meanwhile, here are some excerpts for Crimson fans. Coming soon on our Discipline page King Crimson/Discipline King Crimson/Beat King Crimson/Three of a Perfect Pair Well, the latest news on these new remasters in mini-LP sleeves is that their release has been pushed back to May 1st. Yes, I know, it's hard to wait. However, here's some really killer news! For two of these CD's - specifically Discipline and Three of a perfect pair - Robert Fripp has decided to include bonus tracks!!! And they are as follows - Discipline bonus track: "Matte Kudasai (Alternative Version)" - Three Of A Perfect Pair bonus tracks: "The King Crimson Barber Shop" "Industrial Zone A," "Industrial Zone B," "Sleepless (Tony Levin Mix)," "Sleepless (Bob Clearmountain Mix)," "Sleepless (Kevorkian Mix)." Don't forget, these newly remastered versions will eventually revert to a standard jewel case packaging, so get these limited editions while you can. Preorder now! soundbite - soundbite - soundbite - Recently released from 3rd Stone No-Man/Returning Jesus No-Man (the duo of Tim Bowness and Steven Wilson) have finally completed their long-awaited new album "Returning Jesus" The album, the band's first since 1996's 'Wild Opera', is No-Man's most ambitious and timeless to date, featuring a more organic band sound than heard on previous releases. Uniquely and effortlessly combining disparate influences from chamber jazz and classical musics (Miles Davis/Steve Reich) to experimental pop (Eno/Talk Talk/Pink Floyd) with a singer-songwriter intimacy and intensity, 'Returning Jesus' ranks as the finest achievement in the band's decade long career. Guest performers include Steve Jansen (Rain Tree Crow/Japan) on drums and Procupine Tree's Colin Edwin on bass/double bass for most tracks, in addition are trumpeters Ian Carr (Nucleus) and Ian Dixon, saxophonist Theo Travis, additional production from David Kosten (Faultline) and guitar contributions from acclaimed singer-songwriter Ben Christophers. The full tracklisting for "Returning Jesus" is: "Only Rain", "No Defence", "Close Your Eyes", "Carolina Skeletons", "Outside The Machine", "Returning Jesus", "Slow It All Down", "Lighthouse" and "All That You Are." soundbite - New releases from Voiceprint and associated labels John Wetton/Live at the Sun Plaza Tokyo 1999 John Wetton is a legendary performer with the kudos of having been part of King Crimson, U.K. Roxy Music and the supergroup Asia. John has performed at the Sun Plaza in Tokyo over a career spanning 20 odd years and describes the venue as having witnessed his favourite musical periods. Ironically he performed there with Asia in 1989 and now 10 years later he has returned as a solo artist. The performance on this recording is therefore very special to John who found the audience fabulously warm and enduring. The line up for the concert consisted of Steve Christey, Dave Kilminster and Martin Orford, described by John as his favourite musicians. A memorable and stunning performance which is a must for Asia and King Crimson fans alike. John Wetton is also continuously touring to sell-out concerts. soundbite - And now let's move along to imports that have recently been released which you'll find at YES-3 FOR 1 BOX SET (3CD) Aussie box-set combines three of the long-running British prog-rock act's albums together in one package, 'The Yes Album' (1971), 'Fragile' and 'Close to the Edge' (both originally released in 1972). Three standard jewelcases housed together in a slipcase. ASIA-ALIVE IN HALLOWED HALLS Live release for the progressive rock supergroup, recorded in Detroit in 1983. This 54 minute recording comes from Carl Palmer's personal archives and features the last performance given by the original Asia line up of Steve Howe, John Wetton, Geoff Downes and Carl Palmer. KING CRIMSON-COLLECTOR'S KING CRIMSON VOL.4 (3CD) Japanese exclusive release. Three disc set recorded live in Central Park, NYC in 1974, at Moles Club, Bath in 1981 and Nashville rehearsals in 1997. Limited edition for first pressing only. Three standard jewelcases housed in a cardboard box. Also includes 11 color postcards with various pictures of the band from different periods throughout their tours. WETTON,JOHN-SINISTER 2001 studio album for the Asia, U.K. vocalist, one of the classic voices of British rock music. Additional artists include Robert Fripp and Ian McDonald (King Crimson), Steve Hackett (Genesis), John Young (Asia/Qango), Martin Orford (IQ/Jadis) and John Mitchell (Arena). Tracks include, 'Heart Of Darkness', 'No Ordinary Miracle' and 'Second Best'. It should be noted that the Asia/Alive in Hallowed Halls CD is raising some major controversy among Asia fans who say that this CD is not all it claims to be. Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com artshop at artist-shop dot com phone: 877-856-1158, 330-929-2056 fax:330-945-4923 INDEPENDENT PROGRESSIVE MUSIC!!! ************************************************************** Artist Shop Radio Check out the latest Artist Shop newsletter at http://www.artist-shop.com/news.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 16:05:43 -0500 (EST) From: Steven Sullivan Subject: fanboys, whatcha gonna do > Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 11:45:45 -0000 > From: "mike mclaughlin" > Subject: Re: Tasteful Prog. > > I'm not the kind of guy who would normally jump to criticise someone for > their opinions but in this instance I feel that Jim Clements comments lack > credibility: > > >I think that bands like Jethro Tull and Rush don't have the intelligence > >behind them like Crimson or Yes does. When Prog rock turns into tales > > >about > >kings and queens, and things in space i have to stop. I just like the > >musicianship and the fact that songs can be longer than 5 minutes. Honestly > >though, prog reached it's peak at around 1973-1976. And most prog rock > > >bands > >got crap in the 80's, excecpt for crimso. > > let's start with Rush they are arguably the best musicians in their field > (or any other field) in the world You can always depend on a Rush fan to write something this OTT. Geddy, Alex, and Neil can play well, but Rush was always second-string (some might say second-rate) prog band when they chose to do prog. IMHO of course. They have to be among the most overrated-by-their-fans band in that crowded field. I'd bet the trio are themselves embarrassed when they read stuff like this. To the original poster, I'd note that King Crimson songs occasionally featured 'kings and queens' -- sheesh, just look at their *name* (not to mention 'Prince Rupert's Lament'). KC's lyrics have never been notably more 'intelligent' than , say, Jethro Tull's. -S. "Certain areas of electronica smell of prog occasionally. I try not to notice." -- Thom Yorke ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:26:12 EST From: GenoTT at aol dot com Subject: Re: Prog Rock I certainly consider Jethro Tull progressive. Not because they did two album-length songs back in 1972/3, but because they've gone from blues-rock to hard rock with a medieval twist to neo-folk rock to electronica to middle-eastern tinged music since they began. Their last album sounds nothing like what they put out ten, twenty of thirty years ago. They've changed, expanded, grown and experimented with different styles throughout their career. (Does this sound like anyone else we might all be familiar with?) This is what I call progressive. By my thinking they, along with Crimson, Radiohead, REM and a few select others, are one of the only truly progressive groups out there. -g ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:46:27 -0500 (EST) From: Steven Sullivan Subject: This is how > > Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 09:37:23 -0800 > From: Neil Corkindale > Subject: Re: Prog Rock TV Show > > I don't wish to flame anyone, but how on earth can Jethro Tull be labeled > "progressive"? Listening to 'Thick as a Brick', 'A Passion Play', 'Warchild', 'Minstrel in the Gallery', or 'Songs from the Wood' might help you understand. > Tull formed when the trend was for blues based rock - Zep, Beck Group, Ten > Years After, etc. To differentiate themselves they went for an English > folk rock sound. And then, soon morphed into what we'd call a prog band. Btw, bands like Zep and Tull were called 'progressive' back then as well, by the British press, e.g. Melody Maker. ____ -S. "Certain areas of electronica smell of prog occasionally. I try not to notice." -- Thom Yorke ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 19:06:36 -0500 From: "Luigi Giugliano" Subject: Re: Get your act together JOHN! Well said Thomas, It does hurt me a lot to see J-Wett destroy himself that way. He's one of the best bassists and singers ever. I recently heard "Heart Of Darkness" from the new album 'Sinister.' It was good but I just couldn't understand why he's so attached to the Asia sound. He's so much more talented then that. I hope he pulls himself together and stops dwelling on the past. If he would just take a look at what made him great in the first place. It sure as hell wasn't Asia. It was his work with King Crimson and U.K. that made him the great musician that he is. Crimson and U.K. may not've been as commercially successful as Asia, but Crim and U.K.'s QUALITY outdoes Asia's QUANTITY. I'm not saying he should try to sound like those periods of his career, but take that influence of innovation from those periods and approach it in his present writing. If Steve Howe and Carl Palmer can move on from the Asia experience, so can he. (Notice I don't care much about Geoff Downes.) Lui G. SCRUTINIZER981 at hotmail dot com "There's no way that what I do can fit within a corporate format. In the United States, radio is a cultural embarrassment. Most of the music that's broadcast is harmful to your mental health." -- FRANK ZAPPA "I still dont see any evidence that the music industry has developed an interest in music." -- BILL BERENDS (Mastermind) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 19:09:21 -0500 From: Sylvan Subject: Errors That Were Meant to Be on 03.26.2001 5:41 PM, Elephant Talk at et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk wrote: > One other heads up: the Tony Levin on drums in Mujician is a different > person: don't get confused by the error at allmusic.com I actually discovered Crimson a year ago because of a different allmusic.com error. They relentlessly insist that Barry Andrews (XTC, League of Gentlemen, Shriekback) was a member of Crimson. A couple weeks later a friend suggested KC to me and I took them up on it because of this very tenuous XTC connection. So errors aren't all bad. -- Sylvan "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." --Terry Pratchett ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 20:23:39 -0500 From: Dan Buxbaum Subject: Oh No, Jethro was veerry proggy In the last E-T, Neil Corkindale wrote: "I would class Tull as a rock band, definitely not a progressive band." Well, Tull was definitely progressive at the time when the other British prog bands were at their 'most progressive' as well (Genesis, ELP, Yes, Gentle Giant; that little ol' band Kung Crumson is a little harder to categorize). And all I could say to refute Neil's comment is to listen to 'A Passion Play'. This album has some of the densest and most tricky, complex & complicated musical passages that have ever been recorded, by any musical group, "progressive" or otherwise. 'APP' features many wonderful synthesizer parts (& sounds) by John Evan (very reminiscent of Tony Banks' sounds on 'Selling England By The Pound', also released in 1973), and the drumming by Barrie(more) Barlow is one of the best examples of virtuoso technical drumming in odd-time signatures while still maintaining a tight musical flow--right up there with Carl Palmer on Trilogy and Brain Salad Surgery; Phil Collins on Selling England, Bill Bruford on Starless and Bible Black and Red, etc. And of course, Ian Anderson's excellent writing, arranging, lyrics, singing, and playing on flute, acoustic guitar and saxes. The only difference to (most) of these albums and A Passion Play is that on those records, the arrangements and time signatures seem to change from extended passages (multiple bars) and from song to song, while on A Passion Play, the time sigs change from measure to measure (bar to bar)--this music is the "epitome" of 'prog'! That's gotta be true, the critics hated this one: too dense, demanding and challenging for them. -- "A little bit of what you fancy does you good, or so it should." -- Ian Anderson (from 'A Passion Play') ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 18:28:39 -0800 (PST) From: Peter McCoy Subject: The best of KC Pete from Toronto, Canada. I recently obtained copies of the Discipline sampler CD's: 1) 'Sometimes God Hides', and 2) 'Sometimes God Smiles'. Thanks to these samplers, I have become an addict of KC. These are excellent in content and well worth ten times what I paid ($10.00 each). I would recommend them highly. Are there any other samplers of the Discipline label that I don't know about? Ok everyone, here is my top 10 list of the best KC commercial releases (best to least best): 01) ITCOTCK 02) ITWOTP 03) Larks TIA 04) Absent Lovers 05) Starless... 06) Discipline 07) RED 08) Three of a perfect pair 09) Islands 10) Heavy Construction Favorite tune: The Letters (you just can't write a better song than this!!) Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 02:53:33 -0000 From: "Daniel Branco P." Subject: mariqueras varias HELLO I`ve been hearing some things: First, I heard that Levin played with Pink Floyd, but I don`t know in which disk of PF he played; I guess that`s "A Momentary Lapse of Reason", but I'm not really sure. Then, I don`t know who asked it, but my answer is that is there a espiritual message in KC, specially on ITCOTCK, ITWOP, Lizard and Islands, where the genious of Peter Sinfield made the lyrics. Not so far I`ve visited a link of Sinfield in "disciplineglobalmobile.com", where it`s analyzed the lyrics of Peter about he suggests. It`s a highly recommended page. About Belew`s espiritual message, I`ve read only the songs of KC, and I don`t find any "spiritual message", but I consider that I not have analyzed the lyrics of Belew so well, like I do with Sinfield. The thing is that Sinfield keeps my atention more than Belew. Third, don`t know who asked it also, but I repeat the answer: What`s exactly a chapman stick? I`ve some references and ideas, but I want to know more. THANKS ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 22:40:30 -0500 From: "Antoine W. Caron" Subject: Re: Audio Myths Ted White wrote: >The first is this: "Since the range of human hearing is ~ 300 Hz to 22,000 >Hz, an adequate sample must be at least 44,000 Hz." I think that is an >absurdly high upper limit for human hearing. Most experts assume the upper >limit is closer to 15,000 Hz, Ted: You're confusing sampling frequency and bandwith. According to the Nykvist theorem, the sampling frequency has to be the DOUBLE of the frequency to be reproduced for accurate reproduction. That's why a sampling frequency of 44,100 Hz allows for accurate reproduction of up to 22,000 Hz. aWc _______aWc______ Antoine W. Caron awc at sympatico dot ca http://awc.iuma.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 15:07:57 +1000 From: "MaxR" Subject: Frippian Influences The song Black Book by Stephen Malkmus contains guitar parts which many of you will mistake for Fripp's work. Has anyone else spotted the similarities? Max ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 00:30:38 -0500 (EST) From: Darryl Subject: Sabbath, Zeppelin, Psychedelia Vs. Progressive, Etc. Fellow Crimlins, 1) Concerning the talk in the latest issues about Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin... As some have pointed out, while these bands are not "prog" in the strictest sense, they did show some progressive traits. The first few albums of these groups were pretty much hard-rock/heavy metal, but by the mid-70s their music showed considerable growth. By the time of "Vol. 4" in 1972, Sabbath was already experimenting with the Mellotron and unconventional percussion parts. Their next album "Sabbath, Bloody Sabbath" was even more experimental and featured Rick Wakeman on piano and synthesizers. The next two, "Sabotage" and "Technical Ecstasy" continued the experiments adding orchestras and choirs. Even as late as the last Ozzy-era album "Never Say Die" in 1978, there was a song called 'Air Dance' which was VERY prog-sounding. While Sabbath was not the first group to make music with heavily-distorted and loud guitar parts, they were probably the first to CONCENTRATE on that style. Of course 'Schizoid Man' was a earlier example, but so too was Pink Floyd's 'The Nile Song' which came out a couple of months before ITCOTCK. As for Zeppelin, you could say they started to 'progress' on "III" with it's heavily acoustic leanings. They were using the Mellotron on 'Stairway To Heaven', and the albums "Houses Of The Holy" and "Physical Graffiti" made use of that instrument along with synthesizers and orchestras. The song 'Carouselembra' on their last album was about as far as Zeppelin got to being "prog". Another band that could be mentioned is Deep Purple whose albums "With The Royal Philharmonic" and "In Rock" are quasi-prog. Queen has been mentioned too; their albums "A Night At The Opera" and "A Day At The Races" could fit in that category as well. There's even groups that only had a few songs that could be classified as "progressive"; off the top of my head I can think of 'Fool's Overture' by Supertramp(1977). But you can turn the argument the other way around: Don't prog bands have songs that can be described as NOT progressive? How many people can seriously classify ELP's 'Lucky Man', Yes' 'Time And A Word', Genesis' 'I Know What I Like' or hell, even Crimson's 'Fallen Angel' as progressive-rock songs? (And while I'm thinking of it, the person who said they first heard the Mellotron on the Beatles "Abbey Road" is mistaken; they must be thinking of "Sgt. Pepper". The former has the Moog synthesizer on it). 2) Someone a couple of issues ago said they don't consider Floyd prog but psychedelic instead. Strictly speaking, only their first album fits in that category, and even then it sounds a lot different than most of the American psychedelic bands. Don't forget that most of the so-called prog bands of the 70s started out being "psychedelic" instead of "progressive". Genesis' first album is very psychedelic compared to "Trespass". The same could be said of Yes' first album. Some people even claim ITCOTCK to be a psychedelic album. During the late 60s there was a thin line between "psychedelic" and "progressive" in British rock. IMO, the first (popular) album that could be definately described as "prog" instead of "psych" was ELP's debut. 3) Poor Adrian. Does the guy really deserve all the "get him out" chit-chat? Personally I'm not the biggest fan of his singing or songwriting, but still I LOVE his guitar-playing. Who can't like the amazing noises he makes with his instrument of choice? So what he's been there for two decades, Fripp's been there since '69; how come nobody is saying Fripp should leave? Just suppose the beloved '72-'74 line-up didn't break-up; does that automatically mean they would continue to make excellent music? I doubt it. Breaking up was probably the best thing that happened to the band...meaning of course that they stopped while they were making great music. Sure, they may have put out another album which might have been even better than Red, but how long could it last? What would their late 70s albums sound like? More than likely they would end up like Yes and Genesis did, or sounding more like Foreigner and Asia than LTiA. On the other side of the coin, just constantly bringing in new people wouldn't make great music or even an entirely new sound. Just look at Lizard and Islands: two almost completely different line-ups that made albums that most don't consider among the best of KC's work. I personally thought that TCoL was the best work the band has done since Discipline. How many of you Ade-bashers DIDN'T like Discipline? Whatever your opinion of Belew, you have to admit that album was both a new direction as well as one Crimson's most original albums. Who knows, maybe Ade's best work with KC is yet to come. Darryl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 01 03:19:15 -0500 From: Michael Hackett Subject: Re: Audio Myths Ted White wrote: >The simple fact is that *more* signal information is lost in any analog >reproduction via mass-reproduction (that is, on any LP, as opposed to the >original master tape [...]) than is lost in digital conversion to CD. A lot of recording and mastering engineers would disagree with you there. >There are a number of reasons for this, >but the main one is that you can duplicate from duplicates in the digital >realm without signal degradation. It's true that once you get into the digital realm, you can avoid further degradation of the signal, although it's not as simple as many believe, and it takes some effort to get it back into the analog realm intact. >Listening to a CD can be like listening to the master tape in studio >playback [...] Not if the master tape was analog, or better than 16-bit digital. Even the new SACD and DVD-A formats do not fully capture the original recording, according to a number of engineers who have played with the new formats, but they are much closer. Certainly, at the consumer end of the market, DAT and CD are far better than cassettes, but most of us can only dream of what a great analog master sounds like. Another good thing about vinyl is that there was a limit as to how "hot" one could make a signal and still have it play. Nowadays, most pop/rock CDs are so compressed that only a fraction of this vast dynamic range is even being used. CDs can sound good (I won't argue with the vinyl folks, as I think they're probably right), but a lot of them sound horrible, and it has more to do with mastering for boom-boxes and cheesy little headphones than with any limitations of the CD format. -- Michael ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #819 ********************************