Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #817 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 817 Monday, 26 March 2001 Today's Topics: Re: Phish as Prog Rock? 1980's KC Re: Prog Rock TV Show HELP ME CHOOSE AN ALBUM Re: "death" of a prog legend Wetton : Death of a Legend Subject: Wal-Mart/NASCAR Tony Levin and Yes Re: Prog Re: Tony Levin & Yes Tower Pulse on Tool (and KC) Steve Stevens progressive list isn't always progress Ade's inclusion in KC Audio Myths My dream Fripp collaboration Heartbeat Re: Collaboration Question Chapman Stick Re: Bozzio, Levin & Stevens - Black Light Syndrome ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 08:56:12 -0500 From: Moses Subject: Re: Phish as Prog Rock? Well, I wouldn't go that far. Don't get me wrong - I like Phish - I have all their official releases and a number of bootlegs (which they smile upon). They did have a kind of prog leaning on 'Junta' and 'Gamehendge', yes, but they've gotten progressively further away from progressive as they continue playing and composing. Fishman has really loosened up his once-strict groove until now it oozes all over the place(which can be wonderful or awful depending on your point-of-view). Sure, I love going to see them and have them pull out You Enjoy Myself or Divided Sky or McGrupp, but I know that that's not their direction anymore. Dave's Energy Guide, back when they used to play it, was often confused with a cover of Discipline. So what am I getting at? Phish = maybe prog once, but not anymore. Perhaps their current hiatus will give them time to reconsider their musical direction (again) and who knows what will happen? Also, fans of happy 'pseudo-prog' would certainly enjoy those albums aforementioned. And if you need a copy of Gamehendge, I can get you that. (Yes it's legal!) Contact me if you are interested. Sincerely, Moses ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 12:18:12 EST From: ASidSmith at aol dot com Subject: 1980's KC I'm currently writing a biography of King Crimson which is due to be published later this year. I'm looking for any photogrpahs of the band during the 1980's. If you took any of the band during that time and are prepared to share them with the wider world then please get in touch. Best wishes, Sid Visit Sid Smith's on-line diary at Discipline Global Mobile ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 09:37:23 -0800 From: Neil Corkindale Subject: Re: Prog Rock TV Show I don't wish to flame anyone, but how on earth can Jethro Tull be labeled "progressive"? Tull formed when the trend was for blues based rock - Zep, Beck Group, Ten Years After, etc. To differentiate themselves they went for an English folk rock sound. I would class Tull as a rock band, definitely not a progressive band. I'd have definitely included Gong - to my mind. The 1974 line-up was one of the most brilliantly musically talented bands ever, up there with Zep and 1973 Crimson. Thanks Neil ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 12:51:51 EST From: Milhouse60 at aol dot com Subject: HELP ME CHOOSE AN ALBUM I have listened to very little of the new Crimson (I do have the Projekcts, however). My decision is between Thrakk and Heavy Constukction. Which would you listeners suggest I buy first? [ All replies by private mail please, not to ET. -- Thanks, Toby ] I do own Thrakkattak, but that album doesn't serve so much as an example of new Crimson. It seems more like background music for when you wanna THRASH uncontrollably or when you wanna set an eerie atmosphere for some guests. I remember last Halloween ... many kids thought it the most appropriate album for the occasion (easily beats the competition with Monster Mash and the Ghostbusters theme!). ~Cheers~ Ryan Milhouse60 at aol dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 14:42:02 -0500 From: "Luigi Giugliano" Subject: Re: "death" of a prog legend Well that is sad to hear. I've noticed that John Wetton has gained a lot of weight recently, but I never thought he would have a drinking problem. Anyone from the Wetton or Crimson camp can get a hold of this and explain what's going on with him lately? Lui G. SCRUTINIZER981 at hotmail dot com "There's no way that what I do can fit within a corporate format. In the United States, radio is a cultural embarrassment. Most of the music that's broadcast is harmful to your mental health." -- FRANK ZAPPA "I still dont see any evidence that the music industry has developed an interest in music." -- BILL BERENDS (Mastermind) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 21:46:26 +0200 From: "Thomas" Subject: Wetton : Death of a Legend Death of a legend ? The legend died in 1982, as far as I am concerned ... Marcus posted a sad review of a recent JW concert in ET 816, and titled his post "Death of a legend". How accurate this is ! When I discovered KC a few years ago, I considered this extroardinary bassist and gifted singer with awe and utter admiration ... until I found out more on his activities in the 80s and 90s ! I also had the unfortunate pleasure of witnessing Mr Wetton in concert a couple of years ago : his physical condition then clearly showed that the man had drinking problems, and it looks like things have not improved. His case amply shows how wasted talent can be, as well as the damages of instant stardom : the Asia years have been fatal to his musical credibility, and the commercial setback of his solo career in the light of his successes must have a sense of bitterness. The situation is just plainly sad. How can such a bass demi-god and gorgeous singer be lead into such unartistic endeavors as his most recent "Sinister" LP (a particularly revealing title indeed) ? Is his financial situation so dire that his only choice is to record half-baked Asia songs that would have sounded dated even in 1982 ? Yet Wetton can shine. In 1997, he was still capable of singing "Book of Saturday" to perfection, and his bass playing on Hackett's Tokyo Tapes is nothing short of extroardinary. There must be a way out of this, John... Show yourself some more self-respect ! Cheers, Thomas ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 14:05:03 -0800 (PST) From: John Huston Subject: Subject: Wal-Mart/NASCAR On the subject of left-field Crim appearances, I remember flipping through the channels on a Saturday morning two years ago and being stopped dead in my tracks by the opening bars of "Great Deceiver" used as an intro to a pre-Daytona 500 NASCAR special. NASCAR! Almost as good as that Eno number in Rock and Roll High School. Graham Friday > Subject: P4 Sighting > > A trivial point, but one that has left me speechless nearly all > day. > > I heard The Roar Of P4 of over the PA at the local Wal-Wart today. > > Civilisation is about to come to an end. > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 16:26:44 -0600 From: "David F. Snyder" Subject: Tony Levin and Yes TL also played on the Yes release "Union," if I remember correctly ... david ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 17:37:22 -0500 (EST) From: marty steinberg Subject: Re: Prog I've been 'Lurking' here for some time....never posted....Seems I'm unable to contain myself any longer. Regarding the long Standing " Prog Rock" Definition; I've seen King Crimson perform, in every Incarnation. ( the asset of Growing up a " Progressive Mucian" in N.Y. I suppose) I was at the ( Then) Shaefer Musc Festival gig ( better know as " Live In Central Park" ) and MANY other WONDERFUL Crimson gigs ( Felt forum w/ Robin Trower...the debut of the LTIA band at the Brooklyn Academy of Music. as well as their Debut at the Fillmore east) I was ALSO at virtually Every Pink Floyd Performance given in N.Y. except those with Syd Barret, Including a Half Full Hunter Clloege Assembly hall...and Two seperate Carnegie Hall Concerts, and ANYONE who was present Back in the DAY ( say...1970) when The Floyd Performed, and DIDNT Recognize them as " Progressive" in EVERY Nuanced Definition of the word, was, and or IS blind, deaf and possibly dumb. End of Discussion. Names NOT Mentioned But Should be included....... TRACE.....and Incredible Netherlands 70's "Prog Band" incorporating Classical and Rock Predating the Nice..OR Kieth Emersons E.L.P. Efforts. ( offshoots being FOCUS...and REFUGEE...) P.F.M. ; an Italian Band... that Pushed the Bounderies in the 70's... Pavlovs Dog...with Whom Bruford performed....if I'm not mistaken ( and i MAY be on this one....appologies) Harold Budd....Who helped Define the now Popular " ambient" movement along with Brian Eno In addition as sad as it is to say... when Taken in Historical Context... and using the definition of the Word " progressive" ( to "come before, to Utilize new if not unknown methods "..etcetc) one would have to include Black Sabbath...though I know this will produce Shudders and no end of Flames...there WAS NOTHING remotly Like their Ominous, forbidding, if not foreboding sound when their first album was released. ( understanding Schizoid man is CLOSE....) I have NOT been a Sabbath Fan for Many Years...but I CLEARLY remember being Blown away by them upon the release of that First Album ( sad to say they DID end up endlessly repeating that sound from theat day forward...) While I Personaly admire the distinctive trait of Many Prog. bands...that of Dificulty to Play...I dont think it is a Prerequisite for being "progressive" I hope that my mentioning Black Sabbath does not detract from my Advocating Pink Floyd NEVER being Forgotten as one of the Premier PROGRESSIVE bands, since they Certainly WERE, and they Pre-date King Crimson by Several Years....Their First album having been released in 1967 ( NOT to diminsh CRIMSON as the Leader...and FOREMOST Progressive band...by their Sheer Longevity, and Adgerence to Music ON The EDGE....with Each and Every Release. Thanks for your time Marty S. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 16:59:03 -0600 From: Don Hosek Subject: Re: Tony Levin & Yes Actually Tony appears on the Union album and even has a songwriting credit (for Evensong which is a drums/stick duet with Bruford). He toured with ABWH, but the live album/video from that has Jeff Berlin since TL was sick at the time. People who really care about TL's discography could always visit www.tonylevin.com where he has about as complete a discography as you could want. One other heads up: the Tony Levin on drums in Mujician is a different person: don't get confused by the error at allmusic.com -dh --- Don Hosek, bassist http://www.quixote.com/dhosek/music/ Dream in Color - http://www.dream-in-color.net/ 312/953-3679 don at dream-in-color dot net "And everything is instant, no one has to wait too long And Lennon never has to sing a Paul McCartney Song." (Kevin Gilbert, "Joytown") ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 18:02:29 -0500 From: "Steve Smith" Subject: Tower Pulse on Tool (and KC) Since there seems to be a spate of conversation going on regarding Tool and its appropriateness for KC audients, I thought I'd just share this little passage from the new issue of Tower Pulse magazine (April 2001, Daft Punk cover), which has a feature article by Ken Micallef about the new Tool album, 'Lateralus,' due out in May: "'Lateralus' is the year's most densely idea-packed and overwhelming album, a pounding epic of six-minute-plus songs infused with ritual themes, tribal drum solos, sweltering guitars, extended improvisations over taut odd-metered rhythms and howling, tortured vocals that bellow occult messages, all shrouded in the otherworldly aura of some demonic sacrament. That's right, another Tool album. But beyond 1996's 'Aenima,' 'Lateralus' is more circuitous, engrossing and apocalyptic, like the bastard child of 'Starless and Bible Black'-era King Crimson and Black Sabbath." Food for thought, surely. Steve Smith ssmith36 at sprynet dot com NP - Earl Howard/Denman Maroney, "UnCaged Bacchanal," 'Fire Song' (Erstwhile) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 19:35:03 -0500 From: Jeff Duke Subject: Steve Stevens he is the guitarist from the Billy Idol band and yes he kicks butt. jd ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 19:40:20 -0800 From: "Michael Destefano" Subject: progressive list isn't always progress After reading posts for the last 4 months, i'm amazed at the lack of "seeing the big picture" i've come across. King Crimson has been a part of my musical culture since 1972,progressive rock in general cosummed 90% of my listening time. In 1979 I was fortunate enough to be introduced to the stylized-synthesized side of "punk rock music", most noticeably Gary Numan, Ultravox,and Japan. At first I was hesitant to accept this different approach to music, it seemed too simple(except for Japan) to be worthy of a long deep listen. The lack of stunning technical virtuosity was something I had to deal with, but realized that intellect can easily be substituted for physical prowess.A good smart band is a better bet than a vacant collection of virtousos. Some Crimheads fail to understand this premise, musically they are stuck in a time warp as deep as their parents were . Progress is the core of the word progressive.Progressive rock was an attempt at taking the next step----to explore the fringes of a bands music, its influences, its destination.The defining criteria is a bit fuzzy due to the many diverse artists attempting similar things.If you timeline Prog rock you get something like this1966-69,1969-1975,1975-79.....by 1979 it had all but lost any of its originality. Being a fan of the 69-75 era Prog rock I see the fairy tale aspect as one of the defining styles, along with complex time signatures, tempo changes, muscular unison and ensemble pyrotechnics(chops!),beautiful melodic passages against dissonant backdrops ..... you can go on and on.......Alot of bands embody some or all of these qualities---- if growth or progress is a major concern, than many other artists can be labled "progressive"! Led Zeppelin employ a good deal of prog rock tricks, but the blues foundation of alot of their music easily excludes them.Queen on the other hand put out four albums of original foward thinking music(with first rate, ground breaking guitar-Brian May needs to be taken as a serious guitarist), unfortunatly they became bland and passe, succumbing to commercial success. Bebop Deluxe is always overlooked when it comes to prog lists,Bill Nelson and co. employed all the right things and did them with a fresh and growth oriented approach----Bill Nelsons guitar prowess equals the excitement I get from Fripp, Howe,Hackett,etc The musical growth from Axe Victim to Drastic Plastic is a testament to Bill Nelsons remarkable foresight(if there is a bridge between prog and new wave Mr. Nelson collects the tolls). His next venture Red Noise was such a shocking departure-his record company refused to release it.Crim heads need to listed to Sound On Sound and understand just how groundbreaking this album was!--Exposure came out around the same time(within a year) and didnt have nearly the same reaction from long time prog fans.Bill Nelson was on to something very different for the 69-75 generation. Nektar was a band that had some shining prog rock moments but couldn't always put it "all together" not unlike Camel,Caravan, Horslips,The Strawbs,Gentle Giant,Rennaissance,Peter Hammill, Vandergraf: solid B-B+ bands. If Jethro Tull and Pink Floyd sold fewer albums they would probably fall into the prog catagory with less argument.Roxy Music were progress minded in their approach and were smart about the way they arranged and performed their music--true innovators (the other bridge between prog and new wave) Rush really are a 3'rd generation prog rock band(after the first led zep sound alike album), but for some reason they attract the regular beer and a shot crowd- same can be said about Kansas :SMART MUSIC FOR DUMB PEOPLE? Also, the 1980-90's Prog metal bands hold no interest for me and I don't care how fast these guys can play.too much testosterone for my sensibilities. This leads me back to synth bands of the late 70's before mtv turned the genre into pop music.Alot of todays foward thinking musicians have roots in this genre including David Sylvian, ever hear of him? Listen to the last two Japan studio albums and tell me that its not progressive in all the right ways.A better rhythm section than Jansen and Karn? A more unique approach to bass playing than Mick Karn? Robert Fripp and Bill Nelson appear on Sylvians solo album Gone to Earth.Funny how good people always find each other! My final plee to all Crimheads:open your minds and be aware of the smart ones, every genre has icons, investigate before condeming, stay young and keep in touch! KAYFABE at PEOPLEPC dot COM ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 19:45:02 -0800 From: woodyh Subject: Ade's inclusion in KC ETers: The following is from RF's diary posting on the DGM wegsite: Saturday 24th. March, 2001 16.13 Psyches are dribbling in the Basement of Chateau Belewbeloid. Adrian has had a shaky beginning to his day by, firstly, visiting Elephant Talk. This is something he very rarely does, and were he to follow my advice, will never do again. The very first time he visited, around #240, he found himself joining the debate on whether he was good enough to be in Crimson. A later visit to the same debate, in 1999, gave rise to "ProzaKc Blues". This morning's visit, several years after the first, and Adrian finds the ongoing debate on his qualifications ongoing. Adrian has been with KC for the last two decades, and he's not going anywhere. As well as being a fabulously innovative and endearing solo artist, he has been an important and integral aspect of Crimson. I just wish he had read some of the possitive things many of us have said about him, instead of the trash others have written. It's time for many to move on! Woody from Romeo, MI ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 20:07:06 -0500 From: Ted White Subject: Audio Myths In ET #816, Jack Lightfoot had a lot to say about digital sampling rates with which I have no argument, and a few other things with which I disagree. The first is this: "Since the range of human hearing is ~ 300 Hz to 22,000 Hz, an adequate sample must be at least 44,000 Hz." I think that is an absurdly high upper limit for human hearing. Most experts assume the upper limit is closer to 15,000 Hz, and rockers who have been exposed to high decibel levels probably can't hear nearly that high. Stage PA equipment goes up to only 5,000 Hz! I might add that most of us can hear (or feel) tones significantly lower than 300 Hz as well. "Finally, there is a format which promises to get rid of the tinny and digital sound associated with CDs compared to good ole' vinyl. Remember, an lp is an exact analog signal, pressed directly into a vinyl medium (no digital conversions). That's why clean vinyl, on a nice turntable, sounds so good. But it is an electro-mechanical medium, not an optical medium like CD's." Let's also remember than an analog signal picks up distortion and noise all along its path from initial recording to final pressing, and is heavily equalized for the RIAA curve (the bass is attenuated and the treble significantly boosted) in order to overcome the compromises involved in mastering and pressing an LP and to create a barely adequate signal-to-noise ratio. "Yes, CDs are convienient (you don't have to turn them over and there is no needle noise), but they never sound exact. They are tinny and digital, losing some of the original signal information. Your ears are analog devices, not digital ones. CDs are adequate, but not great when it comes to sonics." Nonsense. CDs may sound "tinny and digital" on a typical boombox -- but so do cassettes. While our ears may well be "analog devices," that has nothing to do with how sound from a digital source is perceived, since that sound is translated back into analog sound before it reaches your ears. The only question is how well that translation is accomplished. The simple fact is that *more* signal information is lost in any analog reproduction via mass-reproduction (that is, on any LP, as opposed to the original master tape -- and it's far worse on commercial cassettes) than is lost in digital conversion to CD. There are a number of reasons for this, but the main one is that you can duplicate from duplicates in the digital realm without signal degradation. As for that "tinny" sound? I suspect bad playback equipment, or ears so accustomed to the noise level of LPs that they can't tolerate a vastly superior signal-to-noise ratio. Because the major difference between CDs and LPs is that the LPs are much noisier, maintaining a background noise level rarely separated by more than 25 db from the signal level. In CDs the noise level is 95 db (or better!) below the signal level. CDs also have a far more natural dynamic range -- unlike LPs which have a very compressed, choked, dynamic range. (This too is a function of the signal-to-noise ratio in each medium.) Listening to a CD can be like listening to the master tape in studio playback -- a claim no one can make for LPs. --TW (Dr P) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 18:00:50 -0600 From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" Subject: My dream Fripp collaboration Before this thread gets cut off, I would like to answer this question: > From today's musicians/bands (prog or not), who would you like to see > Mr. Fripp collaborate with? There is one combination I would like to see; that is, Mr. Fripp and British electronic group Orbital. Their music, IMHO, is among the most beautiful EVER performed; at least it definitely ranks with Mr. Fripp's own Soundscapes. At the same time, they keep their songs danceable enough to sustain a sizeable fan base -- at least in England. For some reason, they've never really taken off in America. I don't know why; it's certainly not from lack of quality. Perhaps they're TOO good; or perhaps their songs are just too long. Mr. Fripp has worked with Orb and Future Sound of London, artists in the same general genre of music as Orbital, in the past, so it could happen; nevertheless, I won't hold my breath. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 20:41:22 EST From: Leftsimeez at aol dot com Subject: Heartbeat I am sorry, I cannot give you the release date for heartbeat, because I dont know it. But just FYI, Al Kooper (Founder of Blood, Sweat & Tears and the Sounds of The South label, keyboardist for Bob Dylan, world renowned studio musician, etc) , not Alice Cooper, released a double CD boxset in 1994. It was named Soul Of A Man. Anyway, back to my point, on the album he does his version of Heartbeat, which i have to say is magnificent. At the begining he describes Adrian as being "nuts, a good nuts." ~Bruce PearSon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 20:46:00 -0500 From: "Noah Green" Subject: Re: Collaboration Question >Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 13:34:24 -0800 (PST) >From: ProgNaut at webtv dot net (Ron) >Subject: Collaboration Question >From today's musicians/ bands (prog or not), who would you ike to see >Mr. Fripp collaborate with? I'd really like to see Robert Fripp collaborate with Radiohead. They are clearly one of the few imaginative, innovative new bands today. Their last two records have had some healthy prog overtones - the most recent, "Kid A," is an ambient, electronica, rock 'n roll masterpiece. At the same time, I also think they are rhythmically and melodically different enough from Crimson to provide an interesting counterpoint to Fripp's approach. Something tells me Radiohead must have listened to some Crim - particularly 80s and 90s - and I think they'd sound great with Fripp. BTW if you like 80s Crim, 90s Crim, and the Projekcts, I highly recommend "Kid A" if you haven't heard it already. There's a reason it got a Grammy for best alternative rock record. - Noah Green ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 20:46:07 EST From: Leftsimeez at aol dot com Subject: Chapman Stick I was wondering about the Chapman Stick. What exactly is it? Is it some form of a bass guitar or what? The info would be greatly appreciated. [ Replies by private email, please -- Toby ] ~Bruce PearSon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 20:52:59 -0500 From: "Noah Green" Subject: Re: Bozzio, Levin & Stevens - Black Light Syndrome >Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 01:08:16 -0500 >From: Mitchell Pearce >Subject: Bozzio, Levin & Stevens - Black Light Syndrome >Could someone please post information about the "Stevens" in the >aforementioned group? I just heard the album for the first time and was >taken by the guitar work - he's VERY good. Thanks for the info. BTW - you >should all (Levin era Krim fans)get the album - catchy enough to keep your >interest along with virtuoso performances. That's Steve Stevens, who is probably best remembered as Billy Idol's incendiary guitarist during Idol's heyday in the mid-80s. His sound on the BLS record is a lot like his sound on Idol's records, only on BLS definitely a little more mature and with a broader range. In my opinion, Steve Stevens was the only reason to listen to Billy Idol. He left right after Rebel Yell, I think. I heard somewhere that Billy Idol fired him from the band, but I can't confirm that. He's got some other solo albums that I have not heard but other people seem to like. Hope that helps, -Noah ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #817 ********************************