Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #816 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 816 Sunday, 25 March 2001 Today's Topics: Re: who could replace Adrian if he left? Another top 10 `addition' survey Bozzio, Levin & Stevens - Black Light Syndrome someone please post RF diary 3/15/2001 "I'm not a huge Tool fan" HDCD defined from a Telephone Company geek Everything really "death" of a prog legend KC Mellotron Trivia Heartbeat video footage British press Re : Tony Levin and Yes P4 Sighting Chapman Stick wanted Re: Tasteful Prog. Top ten of prog (my final word) heavy construkction= heavy silence ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 19:33:21 -0500 From: Bill Subject: Re: who could replace Adrian if he left? Mike Keneally. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 20:46:34 -0400 (AST) From: "John S. Gray" Subject: Another top 10 `addition' What about the first UK record with Broof and Wetton? Especially the track NEVERMORE...can't go six months without hearing it, even after all these years. John S. Gray Isolated out in Atlantic Canada ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 21:01:07 -0500 From: "Smiths" Subject: survey Seems like I remember that there was to be a survey of Crimsonians at a website after the 17th. I can't remember where I read it. Could someone refresh my memory? Matthew K. Smith ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 01:08:16 -0500 From: Mitchell Pearce Subject: Bozzio, Levin & Stevens - Black Light Syndrome Could someone please post information about the "Stevens" in the aforementioned group? I just heard the album for the first time and was taken by the guitar work - he's VERY good. Thanks for the info. BTW - you should all (Levin era Krim fans)get the album - catchy enough to keep your interest along with virtuoso performances. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 09:04:30 From: "Spear man" Subject: someone please post RF diary 3/15/2001 Can someone please post RF diary 3/15/2001? it seems to be gone already... thanks in advance (or retrospect) I think, --spearman np Orb Cydonia--Terminus ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 09:19:10 From: "Spear man" Subject: "I'm not a huge Tool fan" >I'm not a huge Tool fan (my tolerance for self-pitying lyrics and sludgey >guitars is limited) Hmm, have you seen 'em live? Or just heard what's on the radio? yer not even commenting on the drumming--simply amazing live. Definitely evokes the crimson king.... And maynard in blueface ala blueboy from dragnet--over-the-top. --spearman np A blessing of tears ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 09:23:03 -0500 From: Jack Lightfoot Subject: HDCD defined from a Telephone Company geek Greetings: HDCD means High Definition Compact Disc. To understand the difference, I must take you through some analog vs. digital basics. A regular CD has a word bit (size of the digital sample) which is 16 bits long. An HDCD's word bit is 20-bits long. Mr. Nyquist, in his famous theorem, determined that to adequately sample an analog signal, one must make at least two samples, times the highest frqequency in that sample. Since the range of human hearing is ~ 300 Hz to 22,000 Hz, an adequate sample must be at least 44,000 Hz. One Hertz is equal to one cycle per second. These cycles can be plotted. If you plot an analog signal on an ocilloscope, you get a sine wave. Plot that onto a graph, where the vertical axis is amplitude (or cycles) aginst the horizontal axis (which is time in seconds) and you can plot the number of cycles per second. Got it? By sampling these cycles at a certain rate, one can convert analog signals into digital signals, which are plotted as square waves. Ones or zeros. On or off. That's how an analog tape source (such as "ITCOTCK" or other Crimson titles) are converted into binary code for a digital format, such as CD's. In the phone network, each sample is made 8,000 times per second, with an 8-bit word length, so the sample rate is 64 K. On traditional CD's, the word length is 16 bits, so it is sampled 2756 times per second, to come up with a sample rate of 44,100 bits per second (CD standard). An HDCD is sampled with a 20-bit word length, at 2205 times per second, to get 44,100 bits of information per second. Even though the sampling rate is smaller, the word bit is longer and many people feel that this results in superior sound definiton. I agree. Downsides are that HDCD's will give up all of their superior sonics in a regular CD player, hence, you must have an HDCD compatible player to get everything that is there. But you can still get regular 16-bit sound out of a traditional CD player and an HDCD disc, just not all of its magic. The new Digital Audio Disc (DAD; DVD's audio brother) and SACD (Sony's propriertary system) are 24-bit samples at 192 kHz. That's a word bit which is one third longer and is sampled over 4 times more than traditional CD's. Finally, there is a format which promises to get rid of the tinny and digital sound associated with CD's compared to good ole' vinyl. Remember, an lp is an exact analog signal, pressed directly into a vinyl medium (no digital conversions). That's why clean vinyl, on a nice turntable, sounds so good. But it is an electro-mechanical medium, not an optical medium like CD's. Yes, CD's are convienient (you don't have to turn them over and there is no needle noise), but they never sound exact. They are tinny and digital, losing some of the original signal information. Your ears are analog devices, not digital ones. CD's are adequate, but not great when it comes to sonics. HDCD is an improvement, but it is an interim solution. DAD or SACD (Yes, there will be a new format war like Beta vs. VHS) promises to deliver true, analog-like sound and take us into the future of recording and audio bliss. Now if they could just get more titles out there and develop players that will read traditional CD's, HDCD, DAD and SACD at an affordable price! No one wants a system which can't read the others and no one wants to completely re-buy their old cd libraries! DAD and SACD are starting to come out, but they are still expensive and scarce. Wait a few years and the price will come down and availability will go up, for both players and titles. I hope that this helps! --JBL ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 14:52:23 -0000 From: "Waen Shepherd" Subject: Everything really Hello All I'm totally new to Elephant Talk, having only just subscribed this week. I'd heard a lot of the 69-84 Crimson many years back and always liked it, but it wasn't until seeing the Top Ten Prog Rock a few weeks ago that I thought "Oh yes, King Crimson, I forgot about them" and went out and caught up on the back catalogue. I only really meant to get one or two albums, but it turned out to be quite addictive and (thanks to various well-chanced-upon bargains) I have pretty much all of the major releases now. This does mean I still have a lot to explore, but one thing seems pretty clear - that Adrian Belew is a fantastic talent, who deserves a lot better than the slagging he seems to get from a lot of the "fans" on the Elephant Talk site and this newsletter. It really surprises me that, although he's been Crimson's front man for twenty years, there are still people out there treating him like he's some kind of impostor. Like the 1973 line-up would be somehow better. One of the things that has really impressed me about Thrak and The ConstruKction of Light (neither of which I had heard before this week) is that King Crimson seem to have grown a major sense of humour, particularly on the latter release. It really impresses me that a band can look back on itself and re-evaluate its own history in the way it has on tracks like VROOOM and FraKctured, while at the same time coming out with truly original stuff like Into the Frying Pan - it all proves that you don't have to lose the capacity to experiment and reinvent yourself once you get past forty. Like so many other bands, KC could be trawling pointlessly through the back catalogue at summer festivals and college balls, but instead, they work hard and continually come up with new stuff. This, I think, is only enhanced by the "over the shoulder" nods they give to the past. On the one hand, it gives KC a more rounded identity which it didn't have in its 80s incarnation, and on the other, it ensures that there's a solid foundation from which to stride forth and experiment. If they merely stuck to a 1973 formula, that simply wouldn't happen. And they'd be doing local nightclubs and working men's pubs and saying "Everybody stick your hands in the air," encouraging the lighting of candles, "Everybody sing along now" etc. Basically they'd be rubbish. So that's my opening gambit - Adrian is great and their last album was great too. And the Top Ten Prog Rock was great because it was probably the first time King Crimson have even been mentioned on British TV for twenty years. And it got them at least one new fan. Waen Shepherd ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 16:42:24 +0100 From: "Marcus Enochsson" Subject: "death" of a prog legend Please note: This is a ctrl+c ctrl+v from the Flower Kings mailing list, flowerkingsmail at yahoogroups dot com, digest 641, written by gp at pgilroy dot freeserve dot co dot uk I thought it may be of interest to ETers. Sincerely, Marcus "I've just come back from attending a gig by John Wetton, a very very drunk John Wetton. The man is a disgrace. He had to be helped onto the stage, which was about six inches high, he couldn't sing and his hand slipped off the bass in the opening to the first song. He intoduced Red as a Crimson song released in '82 and destroyed the vocals in the dead of night. I finally had enough when he attempted to sing soul survivor. All respect to the venue who offered my money back without argument. As I was waiting I was joined by at least a dozen more all disgusted with what had happened. I last saw John in Quango last year which was excellent, I don't know what's happened tonight. Those of you going to see him on the remainder of the tour I wish you luck,don't expect much. [...] Finally I must say I feel desperately sorry for John's back up band, members of IQ and Jadis, they must have felt right burks. The retirement home for old proggers beckons Mr.Wetton please packyour case." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 10:41:23 -0600 From: "Jeff Wheeler" Subject: KC Mellotron Trivia Greetings Fellow Crimosomes, Here is a bit of trivia that may be of interest to east coast US fans. In the mid 70's, I worked (roadie, then lighting director) for a progrock band based out of Bucks County PA. (Philadelphia suburbs) by the name of TRITON. We played mostly the Philly / New Jersey / New York City circuit. If anyone saw one of their shows, Steve (can't remember last name), the keyboardist had in his rather expansive rig, a mellotron that was originally owned by one Mr. Robert Fripp (or so I was told) and was used in the first two or three KC albums, ITCOTCK, ITWOP and possibly Lizard. So if you saw one of our shows you heard an original KC instrument! And yes the Mellotron is a finicky instrument. We were constantly having to clean the tape heads - one for each key. And you had to be real careful not to damage the tape whilst cleaning the instrument. The keyboardist was limited to the length of time that each note could be played to 8 seconds as the tapes weren't actually in a loop configuration but, if my memory serves me correctly, on a spring system. As soon as the key was released it's corresponding tape would jump back to the beginning. So as the tapes aged they would tend to snap. Despite it's inherent frustrations, there is nothing like the sound of the Mellotron which I think is probably THE original sample-playback instrument. I first heard one on The Beatles ABBEY ROAD album and I was totally mesmerized by the sound. Then I heard them being used more often with Yes, Gentle Giant, The Strawbs, and of course King Crimson. What a sound!! Peace, Jeff Wheeler wheelerjk at missouri dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 16:55:52 -0600 From: "Teri Short" Subject: Heartbeat Hi. Could someone please tell me the date that the song, "Heartbeat" came out? Thanks, Teri --- Teri Short --- dalenteri at earthlink dot net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 02:20:05 -0000 From: "Woody" Subject: video footage does anyone know of any official/unofficial video footage available on the net for viewing, or even downloading. any snippets would be great, include any related bands as well in the above question cheers Woody @ Osmosis Productions pondering the unponderable, with pondering ponderality, in a preponderous ponderational ponder. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.231 / Virus Database: 112 - Release Date: 2/12/01 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 12:34:36 -0000 From: "Waen Shepherd" Subject: British press In the latest ET I read, Brian O' Connell says: >after reading all the posts about the "top 10" list on >prog it only seems to reaffirm my notion that the British press is overtly >negative, especially when it come to any prog music Yes, all true. The press is notorious here in Britain for being negative - the music press especially. I don't know, it might be better now, but I stopped reading it a long time ago. The basic rule usually is, anything you've never heard of is good (the more obscure the band, the more they are championed) and any amount of success is always a bad thing. It's less about reviewing music than about journalists trying to make names for themselves. And it's easier to get a name as "that vicious bastard who slags everyone off" than "that serious music lover who's fair and just". When it comes to prog rock though - it's been looked at unfavourably for years - since punk happened in 1976, really. That's usually the watershed by which it's measured. Prog rock was seen as the most excessive and pompous form of music, and because it was performed by very talented (and, usually, trained) musicians, punk was the utter antithesis of it (cos it was all about picking up a guitar and doing something really accessible and simple). Prog rock's had a bad press ever since, with Emerson, Lake and Palmer being written off as the worst culprits. "Dinosaurs". I'd say the Top Ten programme is the first time that prog's been looked at in any way fondly for a long time. It's generally a good series - it's not meant to be serious at all, and the tone of it is always with a knowing wink. I think most of the bands came off looking great. There's a "Top Ten Guitar Heroes" on tonight - I imagine it'll end up being more Brian May than Robert Fripp. But it's usually just a bit of fun. Do you know, it's surprising how few people over here have even heard of King Crimson. I don't think, in my life, I have ever heard anything of theirs on the radio, or on TV. Until the Top Ten programme. Oh yeah, 21st Century Schizoid Man was used on an ad for Dunlop tyres. Anyway, I think the thing is, anyone who does know of King Crimson usually loves them. But we're very few in number in this strange country. Waen Shepherd ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 20:09:21 +0100 From: "Bruno" Subject: Re : Tony Levin and Yes Hi ETers, in ET#813 Jay asked about the collaborations Tony Levin did with Yes. As far as I'm concerned, Tony played on the ABWH studio album, released in 1989. So there is no Chris Squire on the album, and that is why it's not a "Yes album". Well, the music can be a little bit disappointing, especially if your not into "prog FM" (Asia, Yes 80's, and so on). But there are Bill Bruford ans Rick Wakeman ! The live "an evening of Yes music plus" is greater than the studio album, but I don't remember wether or not Tony Levin plays on it... Bruno ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 22:12:37 GMT From: crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Mike Dickson) Subject: P4 Sighting A trivial point, but one that has left me speechless nearly all day. I heard The Roar Of P4 of over the PA at the local Wal-Wart today. Civilisation is about to come to an end. Mike Dickson, Elephant Talk Administration Mellotron M400 #996 - Hammond T500 #252302 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 07:46:08 +0000 From: Ravi Srinivas Subject: Chapman Stick wanted Chapman Stick wanted urgently. Must be 10 string with all the bits in original condition. Cash waiting ..... BTW I'm in the UK. email : ravi at tecnik dot co dot uk Regards Ravi ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 11:45:45 -0000 From: "mike mclaughlin" Subject: Re: Tasteful Prog. I'm not the kind of guy who would normally jump to criticise someone for their opinions but in this instance I feel that Jim Clements comments lack credibility: >I think that bands like Jethro Tull and Rush don't have the intelligence >behind them like Crimson or Yes does. When Prog rock turns into tales > >about >kings and queens, and things in space i have to stop. I just like the >musicianship and the fact that songs can be longer than 5 minutes. Honestly >though, prog reached it's peak at around 1973-1976. And most prog rock > >bands >got crap in the 80's, excecpt for crimso. let's start with Rush they are arguably the best musicians in their field (or any other field) in the world there is very little this three piece cannot do musically some of their songs may on the surface appear to be about "kings and queens, and things in space" but the lyrics work on a number of levels (something which is not always understood about them). Jethro Tull have always been a band of high calibre musicians whichever line up you look at and their lyrics although tongue in cheek on many an occasion (a concept which seems to be lost on many people) have never been about "kings and queens, and things in space" as for all prog bands going crap in the eighties except Crimson, I personally see little difference between what Rush were doing in the eighties and what Crimson did in the eighties both bands went distinctly pop in their song structuring (not always a bad thing as the bands still stretched their own boundaries) but to me the three eighties crimson albums are far more similar than, say any three seventies crimson albums (dunno where that point came from or where it's going but there you are) and not necessarily because the line up was the same throughout the eighties the three albums with John Wetton on from the seventies provide ample evidence that a band of the same lineup can produce dramatically different music over the course of two years. Anyway those are my opinions badly punctuated and no doubt mis-spelled but what the heck I had to say something. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 11:50:31 -0000 From: "mike mclaughlin" Subject: Top ten of prog (my final word) Hi again et'ers. I just thought I'd said it all in my other posting but I feel this must be said for anyone who may have missed the point. The Channel 4 Prog Rock Top Ten was supposed to be Tongue In Cheek, it was not made specifically to bad mouth Prog Rock but to entertain the majority of the british population (or as many as watched it and understood it). ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 13:40:05 +0100 From: "shaun kemp" Subject: heavy construkction= heavy silence Hi there, I recently bought Heavy Construkction, but when I put on the 3rd CD, I found there was no music on it all! I will be taking it back to HMV of course, but I wondered if anyone else had had this experience? Also, I wondered if KC fans are aware that David Sylvian is touring later in the year-London & Japanese dates confirmed so far. shaun kemp ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #816 ********************************