Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #815 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 815 Saturday, 24 March 2001 Today's Topics: Mincer & Great Deceiver If you don't like Crimson than don't waste your time or money on them Re: song title/performers on Tony's Road Movies EXCLUSIVE Bill Bruford article/competition Phish as Prog Rock? Re: Top 10 Prog Bands... Disappointing.. Three of a Perfect Pair GUITAR TAB Re: The Sheltering Sky... is it sheltering? Re: Al Stewart and Fripp??? turn it off Re: Daryl Hall-Sacred Songs (w/ Robert Fripp) (RCA Records Spain 1980) Re: TOOL "Progressive" Re: KC on TV Collaboration Question Top Prog Peter Hammill KCTV... password...and you don't need it ! ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 11:07:59 -0800 (PST) From: Edgar Kausel Subject: Mincer & Great Deceiver I know that The Mincer was recorded in Zurich, November 15, 1973. Now, if you listen carefully to "The Law of Maximum Distress, part two" from TGD (also recorded in Zurich), the bass line is the same as "The Mincer". Is there any chance that "The Mincer" is actually the missing piece between The Law of Maximum Distress, part one and part two? Edgar Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 16:20:29 EST From: Belewp at cs dot com Subject: If you don't like Crimson than don't waste your time or money on them I feel I must point out the obvious here to some of these crim 'enthusiast' who really seem to hate who the band really are. Instead of bitching that Belew lightens crimson's foreboding persona and realize that he has been the singer for the last 5 studio albums . quit wasting you r time and money on something you have [thankfully] no control over. It's time for you to let go of what was and what will never be again. I don't see why people think just because they buy a few albums by an artist , they think they have some sort of say on what the band does. If King Crimson turned into a band I couldn't stand listening to, then I'd quit buying their albums and posting on their websites because I would move on to something that DOES fit my listening taste and not bitch about something that I have no say in, ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 03:04:08 -0000 From: "Ron Chrisley" Subject: Re: song title/performers on Tony's Road Movies >Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:09:54 EST >From: Martygbe at aol dot com >Subject: Re: song title/performers on Tony's Road Movies > >Can someone tell me what song is featured on Deja Vroom, Tony's Road Movies, >Rehearsal (Part Two). Thank You, Marty Gardner I don't know if you already received a reply, but the tune is "Real Life" from Trey Gunn's "One Thousand Years". Ron ===== "Maybe [for artists] to move closer [to what they are creating], they have to let go. They have to let go of desire. They have to let go of concepts." -- David Sylvian, The Onion, February 28th, 2001. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 13:08:24 -0000 From: "Tony Emmerson" Subject: EXCLUSIVE Bill Bruford article/competition Dear Folks Some of you might be interested in the new article by Bill Bruford featured exclusively in Go4London's Go4MyLondon lifestyle section. In it he talks in personal terms about the city, and there is also a chance to win signed copies of the Earthworks album released last week -The Sound of Surprise Although not specifically a Prog or music section, we are featuring exclusive pieces penned by Prog stars and others relating to the city. Current articles include ones by Tony Levin, Peter Hammill, Rick Wakeman, Anthony Phillips, Annie Haslam, and Paul Whitehead. There is also a superb chance to win copies of Pete Lockett's Network of Sparks album, featuring Pete and Bill Bruford. Kindly donated and SIGNED by Pete, they contain some of the most interesting percussion work heard for a long, long time. Plus there's a signed copy of Mark Wilkinson's Masque book up for grabs and some David Cross albums! There will be more articles coming weekly from other great Prog names (and others), plus lots of competitions to win signed more CDs! Every competition entry shows support for the venture, vital for getting more articles well into 2001 and beyond. The URL is http://www.go4mylondon.co.uk All the best -- Tony Emmerson BSc (Hons) Email: tony at temmerson dot freeserve dot co dot uk Writer & Journalist UK Contributor to: Go4London - http://www.go4london.co.uk Progression - http://www.progressionmagazine.com ProgressiveWorld - http://www.progressiveworld.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 08:52:29 -0800 (PST) From: Karl Maybach Subject: Phish as Prog Rock? Though I do not live in England and have not had the chance to see the program so many ET'ers have been talking about, it is never the less very easy to have an opinion about the top-ten prog rockers. The first four are easy. These are the bands that define prog rock: * King Crimson * Yes * ELP * Genisis (with Peter Gabriel only) But if we need ten, then we should add a couple of bands that sound a bit further from the core, but seem to me to fit in among the prog rock bands: * Pink Floyd * Jethro Tull * Frank Zappa (who "discovered" Adrian Belew) After this, we are more or less stuck for the last four. From what I can gather, the TV program picked Camel (a fairly weak also-ran in my opinion) and I don't know who else (someone said Rush?--I suppose I can see that...). I guess I would add: * Gong * Focus * Mike Oldfield And where is Prog Rock now? Of the bands above, only King Crimson remains a viable creative group. The others are either gone or have turned into "best of" outfits releasing uninspired new material serving only to irritate audiences in between the songs they liked in high school and came to hear. Cheers to Crimson for pushing the envelope with TCOL, and then realizing that the live versions are better, so giving the fans Heavy ConstruKction on three CD's (including a bonus 40-minute video!) No other "prog rock" band has been this vital for thirty years. Except maybe Phish? Does anybody else see Phish as a new prog rock band? Listen especially to "Junta" and "Gamehenge"; admittedly their oldest material, but still played in rotation at live shows ("Gamehenge" is only available on live tapes). Like Crimson, they are a band that keeps their material fresh through new interpretations and group improvisation each night. Comparisons to the Dead abound, but the band themselves point more often to Crimson and Zappa as influences. Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 18:31:54 +0000 From: Nick Loebner Subject: Re: Top 10 Prog Bands... Disappointing.. "Cameron Devlin" wrote: > > The entire point of this program was to insult Prog Rock. [snip] > The pantsness of this program was evident when during the Yes spot, > they didn't mention that Peter Banks was in it (apparently they > instantly got Steve Howe) and never once mentioned Bill Bruford, > even though they had already interviewed him for Crimson! They also > cut off at 90125 and didn't even mention that they were still going. [snip, snip, snip] > I'll stop banging on now, but I'm just completely insulted. Although > Fripp likes to believe Crimson aren't Prog (and by popular definition, > they baren't), they are the very definition - Progressive. Crimson > is the most progressive band in the world, not because they make > endless concept albums, but because they progress! IMO it was just a pice of frivolous entertainment - not a detailed chronicle of the genre for prog fan-boys. > 80s crim on the Old Grey Whistle Test (to which the voiceover man > mentioned Tony Levin on "thing".. DO SOME RESEARCH) I'm guessing you're not English? Or perhaps you just missed the inflexion in the narrator's tone, merely suggesting it's a rather unusual instrument!!! [snip] > They ripped the piss out of the Moody Blues, who I love, but then > again the footage was begging for it (Italian Waiter outfits, "Look > Out, the Waiter's on Acid!"). Even you laughed at that one! I guess it'd be nice to have learned something new - but let's face it, this is mass media. Don't take it too seriously and you might enjoy it. Meanwhile I'm still hoping that the BBC give us some juicy snippets from the Old Grey Whistle Test archive (Brand X - purlesease!) - Nick. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 18:52:13 +1100 From: "Steve" Subject: Three of a Perfect Pair GUITAR TAB Complete tabs of both guitar parts of Three of a Perfect Pair are available under the TAB section on the ELEPHANT TALK site. They are also up on my own page, being http://go.to/sonicoverflow Enjoy! Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:38:36 -0500 From: Adam Aronson Subject: Re: The Sheltering Sky... is it sheltering? From "Miguel Farah F." : > So today I brought, among other stuff, _Discipline_. In the middle of > _The Sheltering Sky_, one of my colleagues said "So, when's Dracula > coming out?". > > I replied "Huh?". > > So he says "That music! Seems like a soundtrack for a Dracula movie.". I have a similar story... Recently I was listening to ProjeKct Two "Live Groove" before I got out of my car to meet [amongst other people] my sister. When we got back into the car to go to a local diner and P2 was 'werning and twerning' away in the background at moderate volume my sister asked (with disgust) "...is this some kind of King Crimson music!?!?" When I asked her how she knew she replied "because their music sounds like having a nightmare!" Adam ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:11:59 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Tanigawa Subject: Re: Al Stewart and Fripp??? There was an article in a music magazine sometime in the last 5 years in which Al Stewart stated that he had taken a few guitar lessons from a teenaged Fripp which just seemed to sail over his head. Someone might be able to tell you which issue of which magazine that was. I was unaware of any connection between the two musicians in 1977 when "Year of the Cat" became an AM radio hit. But when I first heard the guitar solo I immediately thought of Fripp. It sounded like something that Fripp might play with the 1972-74 KC, except that it was not quite as distorted. Mike >"He later attended - and dropped out of - public school, learned >to play guitar with Robert Fripp and, like most everyone else in >the mid-sixties, became besotted with the music of Bob Dylan." > >Al Stewart learned from Fripp? I don't hear any influence in >Stewart's playing, but then again, this occurred back in the 60's >if I have my figures right. Any other people have info on this >tidbit?? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:08:21 -0500 (EST) From: Steven Sullivan Subject: turn it off > Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 22:15:42 -0300 (CLST) > From: "Miguel Farah F." > Subject: The Sheltering Sky... is it sheltering? > > I have the habit of always bringing 2-4 CDs to work, and put them at a > proper volume - enough so that my colleagues will listen to them but not > too loud that it'll become bothersome. > > So today I brought, among other stuff, _Discipline_. In the middle of > _The Sheltering Sky_, one of my colleagues said "So, when's Dracula > coming out?". > > I replied "Huh?". > > So he says "That music! Seems like a soundtrack for a Dracula movie.". > > I still don't know what to make of it. Translation: it's spooky music Secondary Translation: your music is too loud. There's no volume where it's 'loud enough for you colleagues will listen to them' but 'not loud enough so that it will become bothersome'. Personally, I don't care if it's a band I *like* , I *still* dont' want to to be subjected to ther people's listening sessions against my will -- certainly not at work. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:15:03 -0600 From: Craig Subject: Re: Daryl Hall-Sacred Songs (w/ Robert Fripp) (RCA Records Spain 1980) Hello there (again), My apologies for the chaos, but in the (rather lengthy this time, about 2 weeks due to Toby being in Japan) interim between writing my last post to ET #811, & it`s actually appearing, I have had major ISP problems, forcing me to obtain a new address, .....SO, anyone who tried contacting me about the Daryl Hall/Fripp LP was unable to do so, as that address is no more. Below is the blurb once again,....(adjusted this time). Try, try again,.............. 8^) Craig ********************************************************** A continuation of the EXPOSURE direction............... Daryl Hall-Sacred Songs (w/ Robert Fripp) (RCA Records Spain 1980) Well,....I thought I`d make this available through ET, as opposed to the usual eBay routine. It`s a beautiful Spanish import of this actually (despite the, shall we say, 'dubious'?, nature of the rest of DH`s music) very nice album. Very nice indeed, w/ Bob Fripp lending his guitar ((((((ocassional brief bursts of Larks` Tongues)))) (& some Frippertronics), alongside his composing & production skills. Taken as a whole, it`s a well-crafted pop-rock record w/ leanings toward early Todd Rundgren (voice & song-craft), early Bowie, & even a bit of Tim Buckley-type delivery. What makes it a really good one, of course, is Fripp`s participation, & this is certainly an over-looked minor gem. The cover is Mint-, & the record is stone MINT! (I just played it. *No* pops or tics. Clean press. Sound quality is superb). Extremely nice copy. Here goes............ I`m currently accepting offers (bids) on this rather rare vinyl record. Bidding ends at midnight on the day after this message appears on ET. Just send me an email w/ your bid amount. That`s all there is to it. I will notify the winner right away. Winning bidder pays actual shipping fee, no more. Cheers! ~Craig ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:50:19 -0800 From: Joey Aguilera Subject: Re: TOOL Although you introduced Tool in a great way the only problem I see if this tour would happen is within the audience. Being a long time tool fan I know what type of people go to these shows. You have US ... you (Brian) and I that come to experience the music and the show they put on ... then you have the younger limp bizkit types that come to get aggression out regardless of the music and people around 'em. This is the only thing I can see that would get in the way of both bands playing together. Another personal thing for me is Tool is my favorite band outside of Crimson. I don't know if I could handle, take in fully, experience all the magick completely from these two bands in one night. That's a hell of a show and I would prefer to see each band on separate occasions. Joey Aguilera http://www.indiscipline.net/fripp/ >Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 23:57:13 -0500 >From: "Bryan Adams" >Subject: TOOL >Hello all, > Ive been reading through the most recent ETs and have noticed that >there has been people that seem to have an inaccurate view of Tool and >their fans. >>SNIP<< ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 13:35:08 -0500 From: Jim Bailey Subject: "Progressive" Hello folks, I'm not even going to say that "since I live in Canada, I didn't see the Channel 4 Top Ten Progres... - damn! damn! damn! too late. Oh well, now that I have, let's consider this: Perhaps the term "Progressive" is not the problem, but what comes after it. As some people have said, groups like The Moody Blues, Traffic, and even The Beatles were progressive in a sense. They may not have been "Rock" in a commonly accepted sense of that term, but they were - at least for a time - attempting to expand the boundaries of their respective genres. Although once they latched on to a song it was fairly standard "Pop" fare, I don't think anyone can seriously deny that the Moody's "Days of Future Past" didn't have a "Progressive" sensibility. Likewise with The Beatles. Many of even their later songs were ones your mother might like, but the studio manipulations, etc., definitely went beyond what most others were doing at the time. Maybe groups like this could be called "Progressive Pop." Jethro Tull, Fairport Convention, and their ilk could be "Progressive Folk." Traffic, Soft Machine, etc., could be "Progressive Fusion" (I deliberately avoided saying "jazz" because there are many sub-genres of that term which can, themselves, be considered progressive). KC, ELP, Yes, Renaissance, Gentle Giant, and that lot might be "Progressive...um...I don't know...sort of Classical sounding." These are only a few examples, but I hope you get the idea. Anyway, that's my brief thoughts for now. Jim Bailey ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 15:27:11 -0500 From: "Steve Smith" Subject: Re: KC on TV >From: "Steve Dinsdale" >Subject: KC on TV >Readers may be interested to note that there is some VT of KC in Central >Park 1973 perf LTIA 2 (Extract) and Easy Money/ Improv (Wild Guitar >!)...and of course there is the Beat Club 1972 which was again featured on >Prog Top Ten. The footage from Central Park is especially good. I've seen this identified as some sort of promo footage for use by Atlantic Records. Black Oak Arkansas was part of the same program but thankfully omitted from the tape I saw. What I did see was a truncated "LTiA 2" followed by a complete "Easy Money" (in which Wetton can be seen turning up the volume on his bass pretty regularly, proving everything Fripp's written about that band) and a pretty fine improv with a stomping final section. Also, the version of Beat Club '72 on the same bootleg tape cuts off about halfway through "LTiA 1." Is this truly all that survives? (I think that's all I ever saw on bootleg CDs as well.) Watching Muir was just staggering. The same tape included lots of other rare goodies (I took notes): * A brief BBC special titled "Robert Fripp: New York-Wimbourne" circa 1984 (he's seen autographing LP copies of 'Three of a Perfect Pair' as well as in the studio with Andy Summers, and there's a brief bit with his mom that tugged at my heart). * Something identified as a "Frippertronics promo" which I believe was almost certainly actually Fripp's appearance on 'The Midnight Special' (and say, whatever happened to the KC '73 footage from that show?). I had no idea who Fripp was when I saw this as a little kid, but it stuck in my mind so strongly over the years that I'm postive this is the same performance. Could it have been a packaged promo that the show played? I didn't think so... * An MTV News segment on a Frippertonics tour which was introduced by paleolithic MTV VJs Alan Hunter and Nina Blackwood. * The primitive music videos for "Heartbeat," "I Advance Masked" and "Big Electric Cat." (Okay, aside from the dancers, "I Advance Masked" wasn't all that bad...) * The 1982 KC appearance on ABC's Saturday Night Live rip-off, Fridays, performing "Elephant Talk" and "Thela Hun Ginjeet." I remember watching this when it first aired, as well. * The complete 'The Noise - Live in Frejus' concert, which now makes this tape not just a boot but a pirate tape as well, no? The tape was evidently done before the commerical release of 'The Noise.' * A 1984 appearance at The Pier in NYC, complete with Sheena Easton lookalikes with headbands boogieing down to "Sleepless," "Man with an Open Heart," and "Elephant Talk," and swaying wistfully to "Heartbeat." * A pretty godawful music video for the title track of 'Exposure.' * A really strange interview segment with Fripp from MTV's old alternative music show 'The Cutting Edge.' * And finally a clutch of performances by the League of Crafty Guitarists from VH1's "New Visions" program, which featured at least two of the CGT guys and a VERY young looking Trey Gunn with short, dark, neatly combed hair. (There must have been 20 or so Crafties in this, and at the end Fripp gives a mailing address in Charleston, WV, to which you could write for more information about the courses.) I have no idea how this tape can be tracked down... I mainly refer to my notes about it in order to relate just how much Crim and KC-related video stuff is still lurking around out there. Tragic to hear that the 1970 "Cat Food" segment and the GG&F footage (about which I'd never heard) are gone for good. Steve Smith ssmith36 at sprynet dot com NP - Ludwig the Grumpy, Piano Concerto No. 3 (Marguerite Long, Paris Conservatory Orch/Weingartner) ... still hoping for a release of 'The Noise' and 'ToaPP Live in Japan' on DVD... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 13:34:24 -0800 (PST) From: ProgNaut at webtv dot net (Ron) Subject: Collaboration Question From today's musicians/ bands (prog or not), who would you ike to see Mr. Fripp collaborate with? ************************************* P r o g N a u t progressive & classic rock pages at www.ProgNaut.com (updated weekly) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 16:40:26 -0500 From: Ted White Subject: Top Prog David Vella in ET 812 -- after admitting that "such categorizations are fraught with fuzziness and are lame attempts for us feeble-brained humans to pigeonhole our experiences," nonetheless offers us his own list of top prog bands: "Top prog bands by any definition: "1) King Crimson (but 'prog' is too constraining a term!) "2) Gentle Giant "3) Yes "4) ELP "5) Genesis "6) Jethro Tull "Top bands that some people call prog, but I don't: "1) Cream "2) Traffic "3) Moody Blues "4) Pink Floyd "Honorable Mention prog or prog-related acts: "1) Camel "2) Todd Rundgren's Utopia "3) Some of Frank Zappa's work "4) Procol Harum" I'm left wondering what in David's mind makes Jethro Tull "prog" when Traffic is not. (I wouldn't call either band Progressive as that term has come to be defined.) More important, this is really a Top Sales list, and hardly one defined solely by quality -- it omitts Kevin Ayers' many bands, Robert Wyatt's several bands, Hatfield & The North, everything by Eno, etc. -- and it also appears to be UK-centric, ignoring *all* European bands. Thus every progressive band from Scandinavia, France, Italy, Germany and the rest of Europe -- to say nothing of those in South and Central America and Mexico (actually a part of North America) -- is flatly ignored or dismissed. Italy alone has given us dozens of bands more progressive than several of the bands on David's list. And the notion that *anyone* would call Pink Floyd "not prog" is absurd -- and again reflective of considerable ignorance on the part of such people. Anyone who is seriously into progressive rock knows that there are scores of good, sometimes great, bands which have made hundreds of good to excellent albums. Check out the reviews on my website, at http://www.holeintheweb.com/drp/drprevs.htm for a sampling of some of them. (New reviews go up every week.) --TW (Dr P) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 23:57:45 +0200 From: "Avi Shaked" Subject: Peter Hammill Hi everyone! Earlier today I discovered Peter Hammill will be performing in Israel next week. I'm not familiar with any of his work, but I've read some great things about his music. I'm in a conflict wether I should go or not. I don't want to miss an opportunity (and such a rare one this is) to listen to great music live. Can anyone comment on his live performances? I'm especially interested to know which material he does on his current tour, or in other words, which albums should I try to get before I go to the concert, in order to know some of the songs he'll play? He's playing with Stuart Gordon - can you please supply some information on him? I am doing this through ET as I found it as the best ring to read about music from people who feel the same passion I feel for music. You are the best! You may approach me via my email address privately. Yours truly, Avi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 18:48:03 EST From: CHMoller at aol dot com Subject: KCTV... password...and you don't need it ! hi you all ! regarding the video from Heavy ConstruKction: you don't really need a password. all you have to do is: 1- open windows explorer, and find the folder named DATA ( this is a hidden one, so you'll have to enable "view hidden files" within Windows Explorer ) 2- find the KCROME.ASF file and open it with Windows Media Player. 3- there you go ! have fun !! but, there is one limitation: 1- you can't resize the video window doing this way if a password is what you want: rome. use it, and you'll be happy forever ! see ya ! Carlos H Moller - chmoller at aol dot com MCSE - Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer MCP+I - Microsoft Certified Professional + Internet ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #815 ********************************