Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #811 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 811 Wednesday, 21 March 2001 Today's Topics: Apology for ET tardiness EXCLUSIVE article by David Cross Al Stewart and Fripp??? Dissing Rush Re: Frame by Frame Box sighted Fripp Is On The New Orb CD The Sheltering Sky... is it sheltering? TOOL Psycho-phants! Daryl Hall-Sacred Songs (w/ Robert Fripp) (RCA Records Spain 1980) Re: OGWT re-runs etc Re: different opinions Re: Prog rock "top ten" Info for Camel newbies Re: Hammill, poetry & litterature KC contacts top 10 proggers Mellotron A Brief History Re: How have the recent cds been sounding over time? Miscellaneous..Top 10, etc. Re: Fripp at the Painted Bride ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 22:13:57 -0000 From: "Toby Howard" Subject: Apology for ET tardiness Hi everyone. Please accept my apologies for the delay in getting ETs out recently. I've just returned from 10 days in Japan (a wonderful experience, and thanks to the .jp ETers who provided advice and friendship). I have ETs 811 to 814 queued ready to go, so they'll be coming out in the next few days. Meanwhile, best wishes to all. Cheers Toby ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 22:13:57 -0000 From: "Tony Emmerson" Subject: EXCLUSIVE article by David Cross Dear Folks Some of you might be interested in the new David Cross article featured exclusively in Go4London's Go4MyLondon lifestyle section. In it he talks about his feelings about the city, and the opportunities it offers. There is also a chance to win some DC solo albums kindly donated by the man himself! Although not specifically a Prog or music section, we are featuring exclusive pieces penned by Prog stars and others relating to the city. Current articles include Tony Levin, Peter Hammill, Rick Wakeman and Paul Whitehead, and we will shortly be running pieces by at least 2 more KC related contributors. There is also a superb chance to win copies of Pete Lockett's Network of Sparks album, featuring Pete and Bill Bruford. Kindly donated and SIGNED by Pete, they contain some of the most interesting percussion work heard for a long, long time. Apologies if you tried to enter this before and got an error message. Technical oops - now cured! Plus there's a signed copy of Mark Wilkinson's Masque book up for grabs! There will be more articles coming weekly from other great Prog names (and others), plus lots of competitions to win signed more CDs! Every competition entry shows support for the venture, vital for getting more articles well into 2001 and beyond. Later in the month we will be featuring an article penned especially for us by a certain jazz loving drummer, plus a chance to win signed copies of his new album. The URL is http://www.go4mylondon.co.uk Tony Emmerson BSc (Hons) Phone (UK): 07957 681 706 Email: tony at temmerson dot freeserve dot co dot uk Writer & Journalist UK Contributor to: Go4London - http://www.go4london.co.uk Progression - http://www.progressionmagazine.com ProgressiveWorld - http://www.progressiveworld.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 22:06:51 -0500 From: "David Schipper" Subject: Al Stewart and Fripp??? Picked up a copy of the ORANGE cd by Al Stewart recently (it was originally released in 1972). Just got around to reading the small liner notes included inside. Here is an interesting quote from them: "He later attended - and dropped out of - public school, learned to play guitar with Robert Fripp and, like most everyone else in the mid-sixties, became besotted with the music of Bob Dylan." Al Stewart learned from Fripp? I don't hear any influence in Stewart's playing, but then again, this occurred back in the 60's if I have my figures right. Any other people have info on this tidbit?? Detroit Dave ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 16:36:32 EST From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: Dissing Rush In ET #809 Cameron Devlin writes: > And by the way, where was Procol Harum??? If all > you've heard is A Whiter Shade Of Pale and their > last album (The Prodigal Stranger, 1991), then you > are deeply mis informed to their prog rock nature. > "In Held Twas In I" remains one of the best sides > of an album ever made. Certainly more decent than > the pathetic Rush (apparently Neil Peart is meant > to be some amazing drummer, but all he was playing > in that was 4/4 rhythm from pop songs... if this > program has clouded my judgement of this band, > someone please correct me). Ouch! I recognize that Toby hates when discussion meanders too much on Rush, but I feel compelled to respond to Cameron's post. I did not see the Channel 4 Prog Rock program. Maybe it will be played in some form in the USA someday. So I am not familiar with what was said or shown of Rush. However, they are not "pathetic", and Neil Peart *is* an amazing drummer and a very good lyricist. For a band that's been around for 25 years, they have produced a lot of very good records, and have never rested on their laurels, putting out new material and maintaining their following. As a Canadian band they have not been as successful in Europe, and have developed a stereotyped redneck, Midwestern USA, fan base, that usually isn't associated with progressive rock enthusiasts, but perhaps more with heavy metal. Yet their 70's material was often in the form of the concept album, and certainly they were influenced by the British prog rock bands. Neil Peart has named Michael Giles and Bill Bruford as direct influences. In the 80's they wrote more commercially accessible records, but their music always flaunted the band's virtuosity on guitar, bass and drums. These guys can play! They have also put out a number of good records in the past decade, as Geddy Lee's voice finally came down an octave, but they like to rock. Only due to a couple of major personal tragedies in Neil Peart's family (his daughter was killed in a car crash and his wife died of cancer within a 6 month period a few years ago leaving Neil Peart shattered) has the band stopped making new records, although I believe a new one may now be in the works. These guys are great friends - rare in a rock band - and have no aspirations to having solo careers. They do what they do because they love doing it. They do not lead rock god lives although they enjoy significant popularity. So please don't diss Rush. Give them a listen, and like you have with King Crimson, give them a chance, as their output is worthy of a listen and varied enough to please different people's tastes. I'd be happy to make record recommendations to any that come asking - just give me an indication of what you like listening to. Cheers, Dan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:49:47 -0500 From: "Randall G. Alley" Subject: Re: Frame by Frame Box sighted The Frame by Frame Box has found a new owner. Thanks to all who inquired and happy hunting for a box of your very own. Randy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 22:15:42 -0300 (CLST) From: "Miguel Farah F." Subject: The Sheltering Sky... is it sheltering? I have the habit of always bringing 2-4 CDs to work, and put them at a proper volume - enough so that my colleagues will listen to them but not too loud that it'll become bothersome. So today I brought, among other stuff, _Discipline_. In the middle of _The Sheltering Sky_, one of my colleagues said "So, when's Dracula coming out?". I replied "Huh?". So he says "That music! Seems like a soundtrack for a Dracula movie.". I still don't know what to make of it. - -- MIGUEL FARAH // miguel at nn dot cl #include // http://www.nn.cl/~miguel <*> "Trust me - I know what I'm doing." - - Sledge Hammer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 23:57:13 -0500 From: "Bryan Adams" Subject: TOOL Hello all, Ive been reading through the most recent ETs and have noticed that there has been people that seem to have an inaccurate view of Tool and their fans. Some people have said that Tool isnt progressive enough, and that their fans would have no respect. Being an avid Tool listener I can say that these are not true at all. However I will say that the views Ive seen in ET are very common, so this is nothing new. With their most recent album, Anima (1996), Tool defined progressive metal in the 90s. They are one of the few bands in the past decade that has valued craft and art over everything else. What makes them stand out is how they have abandoned normal song structures. In their lengthy songs, they shift moods and emotions to wonderful results. What makes this all possible is the 4 individuals coming together to make some glorious noise. Tool has a world class drummer in Danny Carey who provides some intricate drumming while Justin Chancellor, uses his bass as a tool (pun intended :) for melody. These two provide a wonderful backing for their guitarist, Adam Jones, to put is colourful textures over. Not only is he known for textures but some very punishing riffs as well. The final aspect of Tool is their singer Maynard James Keenan, whose tenor soars over the dark (and beautiful) music. Not only does his voice convey a lot of emotion, but he has some of the most thought provoking lyrics in rock today. I would say any fan of the 72-74 band, the ProjeKcts, or KC 2000 should find something to their liking in the band. The goal of this post was to try and open some peoples minds up to them, seeing as how there is a possibility of a tour in the fall. I just dont want people to go to the show with inaccurate preconceived notions that close them off to what is happening, and have that ruin their over-all experience, because Tool is one hell of a band live. Bryan For you Napster folks try downloading these (while you still can): Eulogy (good example of mood swings) Third Eye (great example of texture) Merkaba (a really cool improvisation) Pushit (the live alternate arrangement is great) Stinkfist (overall kick ass song) Sober (I guess I had to include their hit song :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 02:01:57 EST From: MarkJX at aol dot com Subject: Psycho-phants! In a message dated 3/7/01 11:54:19 PM Mountain Standard Time, et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk writes: > no matter > how self-serving and psychophantic they may be. > I think we have a new word here! I like it! Mark J. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 02:49:10 -0600 From: CS Subject: Daryl Hall-Sacred Songs (w/ Robert Fripp) (RCA Records Spain 1980) A continuation of the EXPOSURE direction............... Daryl Hall-Sacred Songs (w/ Robert Fripp) (RCA Records Spain 1980) Well,....I thought I`d make this available through ET, as opposed to the usual eBay routine. It`s a beautiful Spanish import of this actually (despite the, shall we say, 'dubious'?, nature of the rest of DH`s music) very nice album. Very nice indeed, w/ Bob Fripp lending his guitar ((((((ocassional brief bursts of Larks` Tongues)))) (& some Frippertronics), alongside his composing & production skills. Taken as a whole, it`s a well-crafted pop-rock record w/ leanings toward early Todd Rundgren (voice & song-craft), early Bowie, & even a bit of Tim Buckley-type delivery. What makes it a good one is Fripp`s participation, & this is certainly an over-looked minor gem. ******************************************************** The cover is Mint-, & the record is stone MINT! (I just played it. *No* pops or tics. Clean press. Sounds superb). Extremely nice copy. Here goes............ I`m currently accepting offers (bids) on this rare vinyl record. Bidding ends on the day that the next issue of ET (#811) appears. Just send me an email w/ your bid amount. That`s all there is to it. I will notify the winner that day. Winning bidder pays actual shipping fee, no more. Cheers! ~Craig PS: I caught Mastica (as a six-piece), at an Austin show about 2 weeks ago. Fine performance! Thoroughly enjoyed them. They were augmented w/ Brad Hauser (Critters Buggin`) on electric bass & bass clarinet, & an addtl drummer (from Hauser`s newest group called SoundCrack). Small audience. BBQ place, but good stage/sound in the bar downstairs. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 08:52:00 +0000 From: Gareth Subject: Re: OGWT re-runs etc Following on from the discussions over the Prog Top 10 (which I found fun and entertaining - as a Stick player, it was a laugh to hear the "er, a thing" comment - as well as enjoying the footage). Mike McLaughlin (in #809) wanted to know about how those in the UK could get to see some more of the OGWT material. I'd love to see some more, and my best guess would be that the kind of arena for that stuff (which clearly still exists) might be on one of the Beeb's digital channels like BBC Choice. Anyone else on the ET list fancy mailing them to try and push for some kind of outlet for OGWT (and maybe other sadly missed music material) in the UK? I'll happily try and get hold of some details of who to mail... Drop me a line if you're interested. Very best, Gareth >> S M A L L C R E E P << Made with Macintosh http://www.smallcreep.com CDs via Nightbreed, Resurrection & Metalhead ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:41:53 +0100 From: "Enzo D. Lamberti" Subject: Re: different opinions Hi there. Finishing read your message and found me replying. Well, as a matter of fact, we should better remember we are not KC: we're just KC fans or, better KC enthusiast! Things like "Ade should leave" and "sign a petition to makehim leave" sounds me like Messer Fripp asking etier's vote to choose to new Crim-line-up.... I think we should better listen. Art is art. We got the joy(and the luck) to listen to Artists in the real sense. We like them. Maybe we don't. But please don't tell them what to do. About Top prog band: i thought Messer Fripp was not that happy about "progressive band" definition. Altought I haven't seen the programme, SI think they weren't that keen about 70s music. For istance, i've never thought about Pink Floyd as a prog band: notice i got all the discography, and i love theirr first albums. I should call them psychaedelic, shouldn't I? And I think Rush is a good group,with cool groove, but i never tried to compare with british-prog at all: i suppose they hugely inspired dream theater-like-"prog"-band. Greetings to all Etiers, hoping to meet them next time KC/RF&co will be around See you! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 10:56:35 +0100 From: "Enzo Diodato Lamberti" Subject: Re: Prog rock "top ten" Have you ever hear "Selling england by the pound"? "Foxtrot"? "Nursery crime"? Well, what should a drummer do? ... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 11:04:28 -0000 From: "C McG" Subject: Info for Camel newbies "Moshier, John T" wrote: >I've never heard Camel. Perhaps they are a really great, creative band >that I should learn something about. Can anyone enlighten me? I can heartily recommend picking something up by Camel, particularly any of their first 4 albums: Camel, Mirage, The Snow Goose, Moonmadness - the latter is a favourite among fans and contains one of their finest hours 'Lunar Sea'. The sound on these albums can be described as Focus playing Caravan - more song-oriented than Focus but still with that band's humour, time-changes, organ-dominated sound and great playing. In fact Richard Sinclair from Caravan joined Camel with their 5th and 6th albums Rain Dances and Breathless (which includes a favourite Camel track 'Echoes' - brilliant jazzy prog). Sinclair also plays on half of the double live CD 'A Live Record' which is a great place to start if you can find it. Their mid-period albums are best left alone for a beginner - fans only. I Can See Your House From Here from 1979 saw a more chart-oriented Camel, not unlike Alan Parsons Project but more emphasis on playing than on studio experiments. This vein remained until the band's split in 1984. Nude(81) and Stationary Traveller(84) are concept albums and both contain good material, the former is an excellent album and a precursor to the band's 90's sound. The Single Factor(82) is to be avoided like the plague (IMO) although it heralded the brief return of founder member Peter Bardens (who left in 79) as session keys player. Camel's early 90's reformation has produced 3 excellent studio albums, 2 double live albums and a live video. All 3 studio albums are worth a go (all are concept albums - Dust & Dreams(91) is based on Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath, Harbour of Tears(93?) is about the Irish Famine, and Rajaz is a loose concept containing a lot of desert imagery). A great starting point is the compilation 'Echoes' - a double CD in chronological order from 'Camel' to 'Dust & Dreams', or 'A Compact Compilation' containing choice cuts from the classic first 5 albums. Quick KC reference: Mel Collins was a member for a few years, 77-78 and appears on the band's 1984 video 'Pressure Points'. Official site: http://www.camelproductions.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 21:14:38 +0900 From: "Ryo Tanaka" Subject: Re: Hammill, poetry & litterature Hi Hammill fans in ET's, Peter Hammill has published two books of his own, containing short fiction pieces, collections of lyrics, drawings and poems.... 1974 Killers, Angels, Refugees 1982 Mirrors, Dreams and Miracles Sadly, both are out of print and there are no plans to re-issue either. However, a zipped postscript file available on-line. it contains all of the stuff from "KAR" and "MDM", including poems and short stories. it is still available for downloading from: ftp://ftp.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/pub/reports/others/ downloading one of the two files Hammill.a4.ps.gz or Hammill.letter.ps.gz which differ only by the paper size on which you want to print it. They are PostScript files compressed with gzip, to expand them use gunzip (or gzip -d ) on Unix-like systems; for those using Windows or Macs, winzip and, respectively, stuffitexpander should be able to uncompress them. Then one needs a ps interpreter and viewer, a good one is GSview which is freely available at http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~ghost/gsview/index.htm Yes. You can find All the lyrics of PH & Van der Graaf Generator songs by alphabetical order in Official site. http://www.sofasound.com/lyrix.htm Ryo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 07:16:38 EST From: PaulRisk at aol dot com Subject: KC contacts Hi, i'm in a London based dance act, gigging widely on the festival scene in uk. we've done a cover version of "21st century schizoid man" and would like to get acopy to the band members. do you have any contact info which we could use to do this ? or cou;ld you maybe as a go-between ? any info would be greatly appreciated. regards paul ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 13:28:22 +0000 From: Mark Creer Subject: top 10 proggers Well I last posted four years ago... but I thought the Ch4 program was very funny in parts - it was after all billed as entertainment not cultural studies. shame that KC were 9th but as it was based (apparently) on UK record sales you can't argue with it... and rather confirm's RF's comments about not being a rich man. But I'm sure KC would have been higher on worldwide sales (?) re: Cameron Devlin's post Let's face it the likes of ELP were very pompous (loved John Peel's comment that ELP were a "waste of talented electricity"!) ..and Pink Floyd were once the epitome of prog - check out Ummagumma or Atom Heart Mother or even Meddle - it was after that lot they went *rock* ...anyway it was nice to see Mr and Mrs F being down to earth in their kitchen - you suspect Robert had a cheeky grin on his face at that point Mark Creer creer at blueyonder dot co dot uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 09:09:14 -0500 From: Bob Pascarella Subject: Mellotron A Brief History Daniel Branco P. requested info on the Mellotron. I would assume that this topic has come up before on this list and most likely on other Prog Rock lists or information sources. But I will offer my brief description of the History of The Mellotron knowing that there are far more informed and accurate sources of this information. In 1946 Harry Chamberlin developed a concept of using multiple 1/4inch tape loops and an array of playback heads in a keyboard "Home Organ" type format. This included utilizing drum patterns as well as string recordings. These early units had many problems, especially in tape breakage. One of Harry's sales associates took an early Model 600 to England in hopes to re-engineer the instrument and solve these problems. This led to a split in manufacturing between Chamberlin and Bradmatic LTD, which was later resolved in Chamberlin selling the technology rights in 1966. He continued to make Chamberlins with his M Series instruments. Bradmatic LTD began manufacturing Mellotrons under the name Streetly Electronics using a modified cassette technology in their popular M-400 series. There were other popular models such as the MK11 that were common to prog rock bands throughout the 1970's. The spilt in manufacturing and popularity continued after Sound Sales acquired pattern rights to the Mellotron. Streetly was now producing a unit called the Novatron. Sound Sales was producing the Mellotron. And unfortunately, no one was playing the Chamberlin. There is currently some new action on the Mellotron fron with the development of the MKV1. There is information and pictures at: http://mellotron.com/growing_a_mellotron_mk_vi.htm Hope that helped. Robert ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 11:36:47 -0500 From: bruce higgins Subject: Re: How have the recent cds been sounding over time? >toddlcsw at juno dot com wondered: > >I seem to recall a discussion thread about the music of KC and Brother >Fripp taking some time (was it two years?) to "sink in". That said, how >have the opinions and reactions of listeners been changing during the >recent lull in release of new material? FWIW. I pretty much agree with Todd's current positions, however, most of my judgements haven't changed over time. I was lucky enough to catch the KCCC #7 P4 show and get my mind blown, so I've been totally enthralled by the ProjeKct Box from Day 1. Live Groove is probably the weakest (I appreciate the experimental thrust of Ade's drumming...but not the sound), but even that has its moments. And while Masque is artfully assembled, I do wish DGM or the KCCC would release a raw, un-edited P3 show. PX I loved from the minute we unwrapped it and popped it in the car player on the way home from Nashville night 1. Probably the most-played disc of 2000 for me. There was a period in July where I had it spinning in my office non-stop for two weeks, everything else sounded like highway noise, and then all of a sudden, in the middle of the 87th run through SuperBottomFeeder, it hit me that I was going insane and I ejected the disc immediately and put it in a lead container... TCOL is the one CD that has fallen out of rotation. While the writing is probably the most consistently compelling since 'Discipline', the sound is a bit thin, and the performances seem...tentative. Especially in light of Heavy ConstrucKtion, which, simply, kicks ass from here to Improv:Munchen. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bruce Higgins Director AAD Data Management lbh2 at cornell dot edu 254-6150 "Red means run, son, numbers add up to nothing..." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:31:22 -0500 From: "Tim Roache" Subject: Miscellaneous..Top 10, etc. Can you imagine if Bryan Ferry had become the singer in Crimson instead of Ade, how different the music would have been? Boggles the mind. Crim would have been more like the Sylvian project, probably. To the poster inquiring about where to start with Asia, all I can say is, don't. As to Camel, "The Snow Goose" is an absolute must have, it is one of the greatest prog disc's of all time, bar none, period. 70's era Rush, which is indeed noteworthy, is well represented by the new "Retrospective Volume 1" disc, which along with "2112", is all you really need. I do not need to hear "Moving Pictures" any more, I played it to death when I was 16. The Moody Blues is not a prog band, geez-loo-eez! Renaissance is though, and is well represented by the "1001 Nights Vol. 1" collection. Tony Levins prog act appearances should be upped to four to include the Peter Gabriel catalogue, which is most certainly prog. In my opinion the first two Roxy Music albums with Brian Eno are also definately prog. Kate Bush is too; "Hounds of Love", definately. Mike Oldfield's "Tubular Bells" and "Ommadawn" are classic prog albums. Dead Can Dance is also prog; "Realm of a Dying Sun", "Aion" are great albums, a different flavor of prog, but they definately qualify. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:49:33 -0600 From: Mike Champagne Subject: Re: Fripp at the Painted Bride 1) All of this talk about RF biting someone's head off, etc. reminds me of the Q&A session that was held at Antarctica Studios in Nashville just over a year ago (16Jan2000) in which everyone was asked to write their questions on a 3x5 index card and be prepared to explain why the question was relevant for them if Uncle Bob did indeed pull their question out of the proverbial hat (it was actually a basket, but I digress...) This ensured that everyone submitting a question at least had prior knowledge that this was not going to be a spectator event, and this is exactly what Lev Kalman seems to be indicating in his post when he says "I felt that it was one of those questions that was asked just so the questioner could hear himself talk." We so quickly forget . . . who else even TAKES questions from the audience? 2) I retract my (apparently erroneous) assumptions about who Iain MacDonald is after reading a post in ET 808 or 809 that appears to speak with more authority than I can. 3) Add to your list: Patrick Moraz (Yes, The Moody Blues) ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #811 ********************************