Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #810 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 810 Thursday, 8 March 2001 Today's Topics: How have the recent cds been sounding over time? Fripp dislikes the past? Ade is Crim! different opinions Fripp at the Painted Bride Re: Top 10 Prog Bands... Disappointing.. Iain MacDonald Guitars in Buenos Aires Re: Top 10 Prog Bands... Disappointing.. RE : Hammill, poetry & litterature Re: Top 10 Prog Bands... Disappointing.. Channel 4 Prog Rock Re: Hammill, poetry & litterature The Roches Prog rock "top ten" Top 10 Prog Rock Apologia KC/RF tv/promo films Mellotron 5/21/00 Netcasts on CDR remasters ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 14:43:18 -0600 From: toddlcsw at juno dot com Subject: How have the recent cds been sounding over time? I seem to recall a discussion thread about the music of KC and Brother Fripp taking some time (was it two years?) to "sink in". That said, how have the opinions and reactions of listeners been changing during the recent lull in release of new material? I've been going back and re-listening, and notice that Project X, in particular, is much stronger and more interesting (despite its forbidding tone) than I originally found it to be. I still don't find the mix on TCOL welcoming. Heavy ConstrucKtion remains a joy. I went back through the ProjecKt box and the P4 club release, and it was interesting to hear how successfully they accomplished their stated objectives, to my ears. What do others think? Todd in Chicago. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 17:11:20 -0500 From: "David Schroeder" Subject: Fripp dislikes the past? Ade is Crim! I just don't understand some of the comments that I have read lately about how Robert 'dislikes' the past. I think some readers have his ideas about the past mixed up. Mr. Fripp obviously loves the past and is proud of what was created, or there would be no reissues, no collectors clubs, or any of the historic live shows that he has been so kind enough to share with the public. I do believe that Mr. Fripp does not want to 'relive' the past and that is why he is constantly pushing King Crimson into new territories, and introducing new ideas. He has never wanted to rely on past accomplishments and tour as a 'greatest hits' band, like so many other bands have done and continue to do. Also, I must admit I get tired of reading about who people think should be singing for Crimson. I myself can't think of anyone else that could fill Adrian's shoes as a guitarist, singer, song writer, and all round cool guy, who has help expand the Crimsound and make the band what it is ...he is as much CRIMSON as Fripp is KING. And even though I know this is a forum for us to express our opinions and thoughts, it seems a bit ridicules that some of think we would have an influence as to what the band should be. They have always done things their way and I hope they will always keep to those ideas...if ya don't like what ya hear...MOVE ON, and stop yer bitchin'. As for me, I'll continue to enjoy whatever challenges thae group throws out. Later. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 21:56:37 -0500 From: "Timothy W Cox" Subject: different opinions Hey, I'll triple the motion for Adrian to exit. Whoaa, wait a minute. Let me explain (as I probably have before). If Belew leaves then everybody wins except one group. People who wish to see Ade tour with the bears or produce solo related albums win. Ades responsibilities are less and he can pursue any avenue he wishes including his enormous family (that was in jest). People who want to hear humorous lyrics and watch an enthusiastic performer rape his guitar can go see Ade while those who prefer dark tones can go see pastor Fripp frown at his congregation. Those who want to hear Fripp play a few more notes win. Fripp is forced to work for his bread on more than two or three numbers a night (another tongue in cheek). The only group that loses are those who want Ade in the band, who are in the minority (based on personal observations outside of e-groups). OK, you can add that his bandmates who are also friends lose but hey they don't pay to hear themselves (they may argue otherwise). HOWEVER, unless someone with the vocal potential of Lake or Wetton took his spot I wouldn't want Belew to leave. He has the ability to pen some memorable material but not as consistently as I feel the larks-red area did. One of the downsides of a Crim with Belew is that it has always sounded like two bands. I mean, Belew with the backup band Crimson. His lyrics and personality take over somewhat. Of course a reformation of the d-trio with Adrian on guitar and a bass/singer could solve this. One of the reasons I responded to this thread was because I ran into a crim fan who has to be one of the most serious I have encountered (perhaps in a bad way). He had the balls to propose a plan of creating a petition to get Ade out of the band. Wow, I thought that was a bit extreme. I doubt it would have any affect other than getting Bob all riled up. I told him that few people would be brave enough to put their addresses and signatures to such a document even if they agreed with his stance. Once again, I like Belew tons, maybe not as much in the context of Crim than as a solo performer though, so don't rag me out on this one. By the way, I haven't heard any commentary on Ade's new website. There will be free downloads for Belew fans. I also read about a Crim performance last tour where Ade performed a version of ITCOTCK. Who can give any info about this? Lastly, forgive me if I misinterpreted Cameron Devlin's post in ET 809, but Pink Floyd is definitely Progressive in any form of the definition! The reviewer better checkout their material from the late 60's to present instead of categorizing The wall and Darkside and their radio friendly tunes. I assume this is the only way the reviewer could have come up with any other conclusion. Also, better listen to Rush throughout their career before pushing them off the stage. What the hek are you talking about Neil Peart playing pop tunes in 4/4 ?!!? Some of the hardest rocking progressive stuff is on their 70's material. Oh, and by the way, if any one thinks TCOL was a new movement or groundbreaking I suggest they have a listen to Praxis from the early 90's. Similar concept minus the fretboard sprinting of Buckethead. I am sure someone will come up with a bunch of other differences ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 03:06:57 From: "Lev Kalman" Subject: Fripp at the Painted Bride In repsonse to Brian Hoely's post -- I was at the Fripp soundscapes show in Philly at the Painted Bride...it was sometime in late 1999, I think... Anyway, I brought my girlfriend with me to sort of introduce her to Fripp's music. We sat right in front of him on some pillows that were laid out. After about 5 minutes, she fell dead asleep, sprawled out on the floor front row center! It was very funny, if not a little embarrassing. Anyway, there was some guy who asked a question, and, yes, Fripp did bite his head off. However, If I remember correctly, I felt that it was one of those questions that was asked just so the questioner could hear himself talk. Although Fripp probably deliberatley made the guy feel like garbage, in a way I felt like it was justified because I thought the audience's time was wasted. You may wonder why I remember this so well...Well, my girlfriend woke up just before the question/answer session, and heard in disbelief Fripp bite this guy's head off. Ever since then, she takes every opportunity to exercise her personal vendetta against Fripp and tell me what an a**hole he is! Needless to say, it was her last KC-related event... On another note, the session after the performance at the Painted Bride was really special and made my respect for Fripp grow in leaps and bounds. I don't think there is another musician around who allows his audience to have such an intimate glimpse into the inner workings of his mind and indulge (or try to...) his audience with all of their questions and comments, no matter how self-serving and psychophantic they may be. Lev ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 22:45:01 EST From: SuprMallet at aol dot com Subject: Re: Top 10 Prog Bands... Disappointing.. While I do have my problems with that list (I agree that Pink Floyd were never a progressive rock band), I have to come to the defense of Rush. Later in their career they became more pop-oriented, but the peak of their material is all progressive. Look at albums such as 2112, A Farewell To Kings, and Hemispheres. Very progressive albums, and both very good. While I do enjoy their later work, it comes nowhere near the quality of those albums. That all being said, I'm a first-time poster to ET, I've only been looking at it for a few weeks. I've known KC for years, bought ITCOTCK, Larks' Tongues, and Three Of A Perfect Pair and liked them all, but never really got into them until earlier this year. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 05:30:13 From: "Michel Champagne" Subject: Iain MacDonald "Grzegorz Hajduk" wrote: > >There is the question: who is playing bagpipes on Phil >Manzanera's >"Diamond Head" LP? On the cover is written: Iain MacDonald, >and the face >on foto isn't alike to Ian of Crimson fame (but is so >small that you can't >be sure). > I believe that this is in fact Bill MacCormick's brother, Bill having played bass on the PM album, the Quiet Sun LP, in Matching Mole, in Random Hold, and on a number of other PM projects over the years. He is currently, for better or worse, the webmaster for Phil Manzanera's presence on the web, http://www.manzanera.com. This is also the Ian MacDonald of Melody Maker fame, also the author of the "Revolution in the Head" book about the Beatles, if I am not mistaken. Don't know why he changed his name, or at least writes (and plays bagpipes) under a pseudonym, but I believe that's who this is. Regards, Mike ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 17:46:55 +0100 From: Valerie Le Goff et Mickael Vedrine Subject: Guitars in Buenos Aires Hi ETers, Beware, this post is not about KC or Mr Fripp in any way. It could only be of interest for those among ETers who are guitarists. Moreover, my message is mainly adressed to those of you leaving in Argentina, or South America in general. I'm going there later this year and someone told me that there were good guitar makers in this country. So, does anyone know if it would be interesting for me to buy a classical guitar while being there. If so, I would appreciate to know some good shops, and may be the kind of price that I'll have to pay. Thanks to Toby for letting this in ET, and to everyone who will take the trouble to answer me (privately). Mickael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 03:47:39 -0800 (PST) From: Lucas Bleicher Subject: Re: Top 10 Prog Bands... Disappointing.. << Certainly more decent than the pathetic Rush (apparently Neil Peart is meant to be some amazing drummer, but all he was playing in that was 4/4 rhythm from pop songs... if this program has clouded my judgement of this band, someone please correct me). >> Then they probably showed something from the 80's or 90's... But their 70's stuff is really good (try the Hemispheres album) and in fact Peart is a very good drummer, who used to use alternate time signatures as well (I always remember him when I hear anything in 15/16). The only problem with him is that he doesn't like to swing, as does Broof... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 04:19:24 -0800 (PST) From: jan geerts Subject: RE : Hammill, poetry & litterature bono estente, One interesting read about Hammill/VDGG is 'The Lemming Chronicles' by David Shaw Parker : it covers Hammill's career up to '93, and is informative and funny. I remember from it that Peter wrote two novels, with some lyrics and short stories, one's called 'Angels, Refugees,...', the other I have no idea anymore. More on topic , on the last page there's also mention of a 'first and only surviving Robert Fripp/KC mag', available together with other orders from Fred Tomsett, PO Box 86, Sheffield S11 8XN, England. I bought the book some years ago, so I'm not sure if this adress is still valid. Jan and some self promo : http://www.geocities.com/forimul/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 12:25:15 +0000 From: Matthew Nolan Subject: Re: Top 10 Prog Bands... Disappointing.. I thought the programme was "pro prog", but presented in a tongue-in-cheek style just the same as all the other "Top 10 [insert genre here]"s have been. Prog got no less a ribbing than anything else has in the previous "episodes". Basically, it's an entertainment programme, not a documentary as such. You can't expect much. Presenter, Bill Bailey, is a big prog fan, and the voice-over guy was Mark Radcliffe, well known radio DJ and musician. I expect he knows what a stick is, but just couldn't resist the excuse for a bad joke. [ Radcliffe is actually a big Fripp fan, and had him soundscaping in session on his sadly-missed late-night BBC Radio 1 program, I have a tape of that ... somewhere! -- Toby ] It was nice to see the old Krimson footage - a shame they didn't play or show anything from (the widely available on CD, DVD and video) Thrak though. They did seem to spend an inordinate amount of time on Jethro Tull instead. I'm not really sure why Pink Floyd and Hawkwind were in there, and I'm not sure they should follow the commercial success rating for the charting either (surely it should be the other way round for prog rock?! ;-) Look at it this way: If you're well into prog rock anyway then the programme made no difference. If you weren't, you probably wouldn't sit through a stuffy, in-depth documentary all about it, but you might just have been entertained by the programme and then had your curiosity aroused to go find out more. Any bass player or guitarist who saw Tony Levin on "...err... thing" and didn't know it was a stick could have fun finding out - they might even discover Warr Guitar along the way too... Regards, Matt Nolan. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 13:07:41 -0000 From: "Russell Whitworth" Subject: Channel 4 Prog Rock Well I enjoyed it, at least! Can't say I learnt much, except that I hadn't been aware that Genesis had disbanded (won't be losing much sleep over it, though). I was trying to work out which individuals had been in more than one band in the top 10. If we define it as "being credited on an official recording", the I arrive at: 3 appearances: Bruford (KC, Yes, Genesis) Levin (KC, Yes, Pink Floyd) 2 appearances: Greg Lake (KC, ELP) Jon Anderson (Yes, KC) Mel Collins (KC, Camel) Eddie Jobson (KC, Jethro Tull) Have I missed any? My knowledge of Camel and Moody Blues is a bit hazy, so there might be some overlaps there that I don't know about. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:53:43 +0100 From: "Grzegorz Hajduk" Subject: Re: Hammill, poetry & litterature Dear Bruno, and all of you ET-ers (of course) You may find Hammill's prose and poetry (non-lyrics) on russian Hammill's site: http://www.hammill.com.ru:8101, and there's a link to it on sofa sound (in the links section) Grzegorz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 14:57:58 -0500 (EST) From: Steven Sullivan Subject: The Roches > > Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:52:26 -0500 > From: Michael dot Russell at mercerdelta dot com > Subject: Re; Hammond Song > > In reply to jfournet's query about The Roches: Maggie, Terre and Suzzy > Roche have put out several albums over the years; all of the discs I've > heard are a joy. RF was involved with their 1979 album THE ROCHES as > producer and guitarist. At the same time, Roche voices are heard on RF's > Exposure album, and Terre sings the Fritched Samurai War Whoops on the > title track. Terre is the only Roche to be found on Exposure. She's on the tracks 'Mary' (a beautiful song; Fripp used the backing loop as intro music for his solo shows at the Kitchen in NYC, way back when), 'Exposure' (orders or magnitude creepier than Peter Gabriel's version, IMO), and "I May Not Have Had Enough of Me But I've Had Enough of You', a duet with Peter Hammill. The Roches thesmelves seem to have picked up a bit of Fripp influence from working with him in the studio (also, as mentioned, he used to play onstage with them occasionally). Listen to the electric guitar on 'Sex is for Children' (from the third album). It's not Fripp...but's it's very Frippy. Also, anyone expecting to hear lots of Fripp or Bruford on the third album (Keep on Doing) will be disappointed -- Fripp's only got one lead, on 'Losing True', and a bit of coloration on the title track, and Bruford apparently plays nothing but the occasional tambourine or triangle. A long time ago I videotaped a Roches concert off of PBS (or maybe even MTV) -- with Fripp playing for them. The concert was for the Keep on Doing tour. THe tape got accidentally taped over, years ago. Anyone else ever see this? I finally got to to see them live on their 'Speak' tour -- they were excellent. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:15:55 -0700 From: "Moshier, John T" Subject: Prog rock "top ten" Hi All, Well, the "prog rock top ten" just goes to show how uninformed the popular media really is. Perhaps one of the problems with pop culture is the proliferation of ubiquitous "top ten" lists. People want to rank or quantify things that are purely subjective like who is the "best" band or who was the best baseball player,etc. This " quantify and categorize" approach (i.e. assign a value to something and stick it in a slot) becomes a somewhat lazy substitute for more reflective critical analysis. In this case, it leads to exclamations of "Huh?!?" and general puzzlement about how bands like the Moody Blues and Genesis which ultimately followed purely pop-oriented paths can be grouped with a band like King Crimson which purposely never did. I'm not sure what prog rock is or isn't. Back in the 70's when I got interested, we called it "art rock" and it denoted music that was intended to be more serious than poppy, which was often avant garde or different, which often included a large element of instrumental virtuosity, and which was frequently influenced by the classics. Everyone seems to agree that King Crimson is a "prog rock" band. If we are going to define "prog rock" from the King Crimson perspective in the sense that a prog rock band has a sound and an approach to music making that is at least similar enough to King Crimson that it doesn't sound ridiculous to include a band in the same musical category with King Crimson, then I have a few worthless thoughts of my own on the Channel 4 top ten list. First, King Crimson, ELP and Yes all belong on the "list." There was so much cross-pollenization between those bands that none of them could be left off. An argument can also be made for keeping Jethro Tull on the list, particularly if its heavy folk influences are considered. Albums like Songs From the Wood are unique in their own way. If we are going to have Jethro Tull, however, should we also include Steeleye Span for the same reason. For that matter, if we are going to include Pink Floyd, shouldn't we include Manfed Mann's Earth Band? I've never heard Camel. Perhaps they are a really great, creative band that I should learn something about. Can anyone enlighten me? Now for the bands that were left off the list. I agree with Cameron Devlin that Procol Harum deserves as much consideration as many of the bands that were included. Some other bands that in my very humble and non-expert opinion deserve consideration for any such "prog rock" list, in no particular order include: Renaissance The Strawbs Traffic Focus Starcastle (Yes-imitators with a couple of pretty good songs in the mid-70's). Based on personel, another group that may deserve consideration is Asia. I have never heard this band, although I have been meaning to buy some music from this group of superstars from other art rock bands for quite some time now. Given my love of Wetton-Era king Crimson, my failure to learn about this group is really shameful. Can anyone offer a suggestion about a good starting point for an Asia "newby?" Anyway, my two cents' worth probably isn't worth any more than Channel 4's, but at least I don't consider Phil Collins progressive. John Moshier. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 22:04:16 -0000 From: "Paul Owens" Subject: Top 10 Prog Rock Guys, As a newbie to the list I have to admit to being slightly suprised and disapointed by the rather po - faced attitude towards this program. The format and the attitude for the Prog Rock show was no different than any of the other shows (Boy bands, Stadium Rock acts etc) ie, wry and deprecating, but still good natured and quite funny. If you can't be wry and deprecating about prog rock then surely all is lost. Lighten up. Cheers, John-Paul ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:47:16 -0500 From: "Martin Miron" Subject: Apologia Well, don't I feel like a speck of lint on the penis of an alien? I suppose I deserve your flames, for not qualifying my criticisms of HC very well. Of course Adrian is a superb virtuoso, and I have followed his career for years. Other than his (non-vocal) Bowie gig, however, I have never heard him perform live. Living in The South seems to mean no KC. I am sorry if my rant on the album, for which Cedric Hendrix intelligently proposed many possible explanations, offended Mr. Belew. I still think that the silly songs are becoming more than tension-breakers (ala Cat Food), but that's called an opinion. I don't think the band will be changing their playlist or their lineup on my sayso. But my comments were, in retrospect, somewhat disrespectful. As for my mention of Ric Ocasek, that was intended to be rather tongue-in-cheek, off the top of my head (to mix a metaphor). Now I seem to have had that same head handed to me on a platter. Maybe we should all lighten up. Egad, what if I had said Paul McCartney? Now I lay me down to sleep... Marty ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 09:59:14 +1000 From: "Keenan, Owen" Subject: KC/RF tv/promo films In ET #809 "mike mclaughlin" wrote (regarding the recent channel 4 prog rock top ten tv special): >>Besides my disagreeing with this low placing of King Crimson there was some >>interesting Old Grey Whistle Test footage from the Wetton era band and from >>the Discipline era all of which I'd never seen (where can I see Old Grey >>Whistle Test re-runs in the UK?) the program spoke to John Wetton, Bill >>Bruford, and (briefly) to Robert Fripp and Toyah. All in all an >>interesting piece (they even mentioned Bryan Ferry's audition for the band) >>the footage they didn't show which I half expected was the live version of >>Cat Food (from Top Of The Pops) which I'm still waiting for the BBC to >>re-screen. Now this is something I wish was shown in Aus! It also reminded of an idea I had a little while ago for an addition to ET-web. I've always desired to see a complete list of KC/RF (and groups featuring RF) TV footage, starting from GG+F's TV *performance* of 'Elephant Song' in 1968 and including all broadcast performances (actual and mimed) ,interviews, promo clips, concert specials, filmclips (no KC as far as I know, but I did once see a clip for Syl+Fr's 'Jean The Birdman'), & cameos (etc. etc. etc....). It might even include a detailed list of all known uses of KC/RF's music in visual media settings (i.e. movies, advertisements). Now, I'm not volunteering for this (as I have little time and virtually no resources!). Are there any ET-ers up to the challenge?? Cheers, O! PS. Does anyone know if/when DGM are going to release any of this stuff???? Anyone at ET-web or any ETers up to the challenge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 00:06:18 -0000 From: "Daniel Branco P." Subject: Mellotron HELLO I am a venezuelan fan of KC, and I want to know if there is another "paisano" in the ET. I like to receive information about the mellotron: I don't know what it is. !This FAQ is very good! Greetings from Venezuela to the rest of the world. PEACE ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 14:12:10 -0500 From: THRAK! Subject: 5/21/00 Netcasts on CDR Does anyone have the 5/21/00 matinee and evening net-casts on CDR without dropouts and level clipping/distortion? I am looking to upgrade the copies that I already have. Please contact me privately to arrange. Thanks! Adam Aronson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 14:34:04 -0500 From: "top jimmy" Subject: remasters I apologize if this was already posted, but does anybody know the release date for the Discipline, Beat and Three of a Perfect Pair remasters in the US? I am eagerly anticipating these. Maybe it is just me, but if Crimson was going to tour with a newer band as the rumors are floating around about this tour with Tool later this year, I would prefer to see them with a band like Dream Theater or Spock's Beard who actually are progressive in nature. That is just my opinion, I am probably right... ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #810 ********************************