Reply-To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Discipline #81 Discipline, Number 81 Friday, 26 February 1993 Today's Topics: More Comments on "Best" Guitarists Re: Obscure Crimson Questions Thanks Y'all Was Re: Exposure Starless and Bible Black -- Dylan Thomas Discipline #80 Phish plays Fripp Re: Discipline #80 RE: Obscure Crimson Questions Fripp Boot Re: Obscure Crimson Questions [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: cs163wel at sdcc8 dot UCSD dot EDU (Paolo Valladolid) Subject: More Comments on "Best" Guitarists Date: Thu, 18 Feb 93 22:14:39 PST I'd like to add to my original comments/complaints regarding Musician's list: I'm glad that they did include progressive/experimental guitarists like Fred Frith and Bill Frisell who remain relatively obscure to those not "in the know" like us ;-). I could complain some more about the absences of even lesser known but innovative players like Derek Bailey and Hans Reichel, a German guitarist who plays special homemade instruments and possesses enough staggering techniques to put to shame any shredder one cares to name, employing just about any trick one can think of (and a hundred one may have not thought of) to evoke everything from gamelan orchestras to multi-tracked guitars with *no* effects processing. However, the premise of the list was "who had the most influence". Holdsworth belongs there because just about every metal guitarist out there, to quote Joe Satriani, "sounds like bad Holdsworth". I think Fripp influenced people to try tape looping (consider how everytime someone like David Torn or Bill Frisell uses tape looping effects, they are described by media as using Frippertronics). When I tried the Ebow in the music store for the first time, someone asked me if I had heard of Fripp, so Fripp may have influenced people to try that as well. But now that I think of it, the proportion of Fripp-clones to Clapton/Van Halen/Hendrix clones; who seem to number in the millions; is very small indeed. I guess it's because Fripp is such an individual that his style really can't be copied as readily as Hendrix or someone else ;-) As for Belew, I concede that many of his innovations were paralleled by David Torn (string against pickup squeals, manipulation of harmonics) and Van Halen (elephant roar, tapping). I'm not sure who did what first, actually...But it does seem that Belew was using a lot of techniques in 1981 that not too many people were using at the time. We do know that Belew and Fripp probably influenced each other in some way. Belew had to learn Fripp's parts for a Bowie tour, for example and Fripp was making "elephantisms" of his own in "Requiem". Musician should have stressed the word "influential" rather than "best". -- ******************************************************************************** Paolo Valladolid pvallado at sdcc13 dot ucsd dot edu LSD, a drug that turns hippies into yuppies; the most dangerous chemical known to mankind... -Frank Zappa [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1993 14:45:17 -0800 From: Malcolm Humes Subject: Re: Obscure Crimson Questions Alex Slotkin ponders: > 1) Who is Richard W. Palmer-James? I'm not sure but I know he's penned lyrics for some other group... if I could only recall who this might be worth mentioning... oh well, on to the other questions... > 3) On S & BB, is "The Mincer" an improvisation? It sounds to me like they > took a live blow and added vocals in the studio afterwards. Once again, > the enigmatic Palmer-James is credited with the lyrics, though they are not > listed in the liner notes. Has anybody deciphered them? I think I have some > idea, and they seem to be about a homocidal maniac, but I'm not sure. The original recording of this I think comes from 11/15/73 in Switzerland, and I think the vocals were added later. The song also ends abruptly on the lp version but on a boot I've heard it continue on for a few more minutes through more improvisations. A friend claims it was cut where it was intentionally (though it appears maybe the tape ran out) because Wetton's playing falls apart right after the "official" ending and then pulls it together again a few seconds later. I think (but haven't had the chance to compare everything) that the show THE MINCER came from is on the GREAT DECEIVER set, but that that part is missing from the recordings on the cd? If I'm correct then the source improv of this track was left off. I haven't had the time to compare the boot live show vs. the box set, but I have compared it to THE MINCER before and it appears to be the same performance. It's interesting hearing how the improv really ended long after the abrupt ending on the lp. > 4) On "The Great Deceiver" box set, there is a live blow called "The Golden > Walnut," and about 3:34 into the track, Fripp begins playing a riff that > very nearly coalesces into the whole-tone riff from "One More Red > Nightmare." Assuming that the album "Red" was recorded after this concert, > is it possible that we have witnessed the birth of that memorable song? > Speaking of which, has anybody got the lyrics for Red? The most interesting boot of Crimson I've heard yet is probably a rehearsal >from the Zoom club in 1972, with Jamie Muir. It's also the worst quality boot I've heard - very distorted. But the band works out loads of ideas which they come back to turmn into songs later after Muir left the group. I can'tr specifically recall the "Nightmare" riff, but a lot of the songs that appeared in 1972-74 appear to me to have their roots in the brief period of heavy improvisation with Muir. A lot of these riffs recurr in different jams and forms before getting "productized" on record, and as we've seen, some of the official song versions on lp were improvs with vocals added later in the studio. Another interpretation of what you hear might be that Fripp was trying to pull the band out of the improv and into "Nightmare" but he couldmn't connect... > 6) Finally, WHY have we not heard "Doctor Diamond" until now? Despite > Fripp's misgivings about the writing never coming together, I think it's a > great song, and really grooves in a Crimson-eque dissonant way (much like > Great Deceiver). Once again, any ideas about the lyrics? One of the reasons I can imagine for this is the lyrics. While Fripp was prone to greeting the "happy hippies" in the live audiences, I doubt a song with the biting lyrics "health food faggots" would have sold many records in those days. BTW, Bruford did a flexidisc for a music mag that was him alone playing the drum track to Dr. D. I'm not sure when this was done, but the intro has Bill commenting that it was one of his favorite Crimson tracks or drum parts. - Malcolm [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Subject: Thanks Y'all Was Re: Exposure Date: Thu, 18 Feb 93 21:44:16 EST From: "The Wombat" Organization: Neurotica Ltd. Thanks very much for your help in tracking down a few of the people on Fripps exposure, and much thanks to whoever it was (I'll go hunting for the e-mail address when I have more time) who reccomended Noteworthy Music. Even with the silly incentive program my bug you every month CD club has, they are more expensive that noteworthy, they ship 3rd class post, and charge about 3 dollars tax and shipping for EACH CD. Noteworthy on the other hand get my CD's to me in 3 Days, Each was about 10 something, and 3 dollars total for shipping, and Best of all, being a New Hampshire native, I'm supporting my local economy, even if I spend more time at school than at home, wait where is home??? I still can't get used to Sales tax, and State an local income tax here in New York :< For all of you looking for lyrics on Red, if you can FTP check out ftp.uwp.edu (Sorry The numbers fail me) it's where the back issues of this are kept, along with lyrics, music gif's galore. If not, my friend's CD came with the lyrics, why his did I have no idea, I've not seen them in any other CD, E-mail me and I'll send them to ya' -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-This message was brought to you by Matthew Frazer-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Your village may be different from other people's villages but we are all prisoners. -Patrick McGoohan My Saab is not old, It is Experienced. 1985 900 Turbo, 109k miles Finger mfrazer at scott dot skidmore dot edu for more --------------------------------=Be Seeing You=-------------------------------- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 18 Feb 1993 15:38:02 -0500 From: MOONLIT KNIGHT Subject: Starless and Bible Black -- Dylan Thomas Well the fact is the words "starless and bible black" do not appear in any Dylan Thomas poem whatsoever. They appear in a play. I just happened to pick it up one time (I cannot for the life of me remember the title of the play) and in the very poetic opening description of the play I was surprised to stumble on the phrase. It's probably obvious that he wasn't a real bare bones dialogue-and-stage direction type of playwright. I don't imagine he wrote that many, so perhaps someone can tell me which one it was. Jeff [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1993 11:09:52 -0800 From: rpeck at pure dot com (Ray Peck) Subject: Discipline #80 toby at computer-science dot manchester dot ac dot uk writes: >From: cs163wel at sdcc8 dot UCSD dot EDU (Paolo Valladolid) >> Ryuchi Sakamoto (see especiallythe title track of his Heartbeat) and Bill > >I heard that Bill Frisell (who has been superficially compared to Fripp, >just because of his mastery of the ElectroHarmonix Delay!) appears on this >one. Can anyone confirm that? Yes, Frisell is on several tracks of HeartBeat. It's at home right now, so I can't give details, but he's on 3 or 4 tracks. Not especially prominent, though. >I agree with Malcolm that both Belew and Sylvian be in the band. If Sylvian >is really that great a vocalist. . . I'd hate to have Sylvian as the only vocalist. I like him, but his stylistic range is pretty limited: he belongs to that group of English (ex) New Wavers that always sound like they're about to cry. Which is fine for his moody, weepy albums, but wouldn't fit a-tall on the old material. And it gets a bit wearing after a while. . . [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 19 Feb 93 19:18:07 EST From: fineston at suncis dot ycc dot yale dot edu Subject: Phish plays Fripp I'm sorry I don't have the original letters posted on rec.music.phish, but I thought some people might be interested in this discussion that was happening not too long ago. Someone posted a letter saying that they were listening to some 1987(?) bootleg of the band Phish, and during a long instrumental jam, Trey, the guitarist, started playing the main riff from Discipline. Someone else wrote back to say that it was not, in fact, Discipline, but a piece that Trey had written in some guitar camp/seminar/program jammie as an experimentation in Fripp's GuitarCraft tuning. They went to say what the original piece was called, but I only remember that was subtitled "a Letter to Robert Fripp" of something else like that in honor of Bobby. I've always admired Phish for their musical expertise and versatility, and am glad to have my suspicions that they are at least partly KC influenced confirmed. *oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo* o Earl's o o * COMFORT Jason Finestone o * * STATION|\ Yale University * o *********** fineston at pop dot cis dot yale dot edu o o || |/ o * || * *oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo*oo* oo* [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: eliot at dcs dot qmw dot ac dot uk Subject: Re: Discipline #80 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 93 16:52:23 GMT >2) Which Dylan Thomas poem does the phrase "Starless & Bible Black" come >from? I am assuming that the acknowledgement to "D.T." on the album is the >poet Thomas. Also, what does the phrase "This night wounds time" come from? >This is also on the Starless & BB album, and I think I can make out the >title at the top of the poem fragment to be "Lament." I thought it was from "Under Milk Wood", No? -- Eliot Miranda, Lecturer email: eliot at dcs dot qmw dot ac dot uk Department of Computer Science ARPA: eliot%dcs dot qmw dot ac dot uk at nsf dot ac dot uk Queen Mary Westfield College UUCP: eliot at qmw-dcs dot uucp Mile End Road, LONDON E1 4NS Tel: 071 975 5229 (+44 71 975 5229) Fax: 081 980 6533 (+44 81 980 6533) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1993 14:08:34 -0500 From: kuznick at meglos dot mdcorp dot ksc dot nasa dot gov (david kuznick) Subject: RE: Obscure Crimson Questions 2) Which Dylan Thomas poem does the phrase "Starless & Bible Black" come from? I am assuming that the acknowledgement to "D.T." on the album is the poet Thomas. Also, what does the phrase "This night wounds time" come from? This is also on the Starless & BB album, and I think I can make out the title at the top of the poem fragment to be "Lament." It is from the play _Under Milk Wood_. The first line goes something like: "It is spring. Moonless night in a small town. Starless and Bible Black". I did this play in camp one year, playing the part DT played originally! It exists on video. Check it out. "This night wounds time" is not from _Under MIlk Wood_ however. ** David Kuznick kuznick at meglos dot mdcorp dot ksc dot nasa dot gov MUTLEY! Do something! - D.D. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1993 14:13:53 -0500 From: kuznick at meglos dot mdcorp dot ksc dot nasa dot gov (david kuznick) Subject: Fripp Boot A local store has a vinyl boot from Fripp's '79 tour for $12 if anyone wants me to pick it up for them. ** David Kuznick kuznick at meglos dot mdcorp dot ksc dot nasa dot gov MUTLEY! Do something! - D.D. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: davidh at kau1 dot kodak dot com (David Hodson) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1993 09:42:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Obscure Crimson Questions Good questions, Alex. I'll take number 2: > 2) Which Dylan Thomas poem does the phrase "Starless & Bible Black" come > from? I am assuming that the acknowledgement to "D.T." on the album is the > poet Thomas. Also, what does the phrase "This night wounds time" come from? > This is also on the Starless & BB album, and I think I can make out the > title at the top of the poem fragment to be "Lament." "Starless and Bible Black" is (I think) from _Under Milk Wood_, but I'm prepared to be corrected on that. "this night wounds time", however, I can explain (from memory - minor inaccuracies of detail may follow). Note the words: "Cover Design by Tom Phillips". Tom Phillips decided that inside every bad book there was a good book waiting to get out. He went down to the local second hand bookstore and bought the first book he found for under one shilling (ten cents), namely a Victorian epic called _A Human Document_, a fine work of turgid prose and dubious moral expression. This he proceeded to craft into a totally different work by painting over most of the words on each page, leaving a mere fraction of the original text visible. The resulting work is not only fascinating as a piece of pictorial art, but tells an interesting (though somewhat vague) story. He proceeded to buy several copies of the original novel, and at each successive edition of his treatment he replaces a good percentage of the pages. Hence the copy I read no longer contained the phrase "this night wounds time", although I think I found the page it came from. Go to your local library and ask for _A Humument_ by Tom Phillips. So now - does anyone know about the evolution of the "Starless" lyrics? Paul Martz - as a subscriber to Opal Information, I would suggest that this is a perfectly adequate address - they are quite closely involved with Brian. (BTW, is there an Eno mailing list anywhere? Should we start one?) And please tell us (or at least me!) his reply! David Hodson -- davidh at kodak dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] To join this mailing list or have your thoughts in the next issue, please send electronic mail to Toby Howard at the following address: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk The Discipline archives are available on ftp.uwp.edu, in /pub/music/lists/discipline. The views expressed in Discipline are those of the individual authors only.