Reply-To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Discipline #80 Discipline, Number 80 Thursday, 18 February 1993 Today's Topics: Re: "Sleepless" and "Matte Kudasai" Best guitarists list Obscure Crimson Questions zappa Stick.Discography Musician's "100 Greatest Guitarists" CDs in the UK Sounds at the ends of disks Re: Instruments (Guitar Synth) Exposure My Squelchy Life, revisited KC's new direction Re: Crimson singers [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 15:16:04 +0100 From: Bj|rn Lisper Subject: Re: "Sleepless" and "Matte Kudasai" cs163wel at sdcc8 dot UCSD dot EDU (Paolo Valladolid) writes: >About "Sleepless": >I recently heard a version of this song on the local *alternative* rock >station which was quite different from the version I have on my cassette >copy of _Three of a Perfect Pair_(Definitive Edition). The difference was >mainly in the drums and the addition of atmosphering effects processing. Is >this the Bob Clearmountain mix. There is a 12" maxisingle with an extended mix of "Sleepless". From your description it seems quite possible that this is the mix you heard. Bjorn Lisper [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1993 09:22:58 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Thomas Subject: Best guitarists list >Anyone read the 100 Best Guitarists issue of Musician magazine? In case >Jeff is wondering, yes, Allan Holdsworth made the list ;-). However, >neither of our two favorite Crimson axeslingers made the list! The list is absurd, but at least the magazine prefaced the article by stating that even making such a list is absurd. So why bother? To sell magazines, of course! Don't get me wrong, as a former journalist I think it's very important to sell magazines. I think the point is that Musician's audience has apparently degenerated into 1) Children of the '60s, 2) Children of the '60s Wannabes, and 3) Metalheads. The third group celebrates guitar athleticism above all else, including music. The first and second groups are adrift in a time warp. I didn't buy the mag. I just thumbed through it. None of the following were included: Robert Fripp, Steve Howe or Steve Hackett. It's common practice to snub Howe and Hackett, but leaving out Fripp is inexcusable. I don't remember if bass players were included. If so, I'm sure the magazine jumped at the chance to leave out Tony Levin. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 13:37:01 EST From: Alex Slotkin Subject: Obscure Crimson Questions OK, I've got some strange questions for all the other Crimheads out there: 1) Who is Richard W. Palmer-James? None of the standard reference sources (ie liner notes, box set booklets, Tamm) say anything about him other than that he wrote lyrics for the Fripp/Wetton/Bruford/Cross/ Muir - Red era. 2) Which Dylan Thomas poem does the phrase "Starless & Bible Black" come from? I am assuming that the acknowledgement to "D.T." on the album is the poet Thomas. Also, what does the phrase "This night wounds time" come from? This is also on the Starless & BB album, and I think I can make out the title at the top of the poem fragment to be "Lament." 3) On S & BB, is "The Mincer" an improvisation? It sounds to me like they took a live blow and added vocals in the studio afterwards. Once again, the enigmatic Palmer-James is credited with the lyrics, though they are not listed in the liner notes. Has anybody deciphered them? I think I have some idea, and they seem to be about a homocidal maniac, but I'm not sure. 4) On "The Great Deceiver" box set, there is a live blow called "The Golden Walnut," and about 3:34 into the track, Fripp begins playing a riff that very nearly coalesces into the whole-tone riff from "One More Red Nightmare." Assuming that the album "Red" was recorded after this concert, is it possible that we have witnessed the birth of that memorable song? Speaking of which, has anybody got the lyrics for Red? 5) Why are the lyrics for the studio versions of "Easy Money" and "Starless" different from the live versions? In the case of the former, did they decide that the lyrics were too risque? Personally, I prefer the bit about licking fudge to the snake line. Oh well... I guess it was too difficult a sound effect for Jamie Muir to replicate. (-: 6) Finally, WHY have we not heard "Doctor Diamond" until now? Despite Fripp's misgivings about the writing never coming together, I think it's a great song, and really grooves in a Crimson-eque dissonant way (much like Great Deceiver). Once again, any ideas about the lyrics? Later! - Alex Slotkin (alxs_ltd at uhura dot cc dot rochester dot edu) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1993 11:10:42 -0800 (PST) From: TGRAVES at UPS dot EDU Subject: zappa Can anybody tell me the address for the Zappa E-Mail List? -You gotta get out of it before you get into it.--Zappa Tgraves at ups dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Chuck Ivy Subject: Stick Discography Date: Sun, 14 Feb 93 21:22:10 CST [[ Chuck actually sent Discipline the whole discography, but it's really too large to send out on email. -- Toby ]] The Chapman Stick discography -- a partial discography of music recorded including the use of an instrument called the Chapman Stick -- is now available via anonymous FTP to cs.uwp.edu /pub/music/discog/s/stick.chapman If you do not have access to FTP, e-mail me, and I will send you the latest update. Also, if you have any additions or corrections PLEASE e-mail me. I'm trying to make this document as complete as possible... -- . _____________________________ /:| / / : =| Chapman Stick | Chuck Ivy \:|___________________/__/___:_=| White Oak #240 | cei at po dot cwru dot edu ++ 2 years and counting | cei at math dot uh dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 13 Feb 93 18:02:32 EDT From: PRESTON@morekypr Subject: Musician's "100 Greatest Guitarists" From Discipline #79: >From: cs163wel at sdcc8 dot UCSD dot EDU (Paolo Valladolid) >Subject: Musician's 100 Best Guitar Players >Date: Mon, 8 Feb 93 17:32:57 PST >Anyone read the 100 Best Guitarists issue of Musician magazine? In case >Jeff is wondering, yes, Allan Holdsworth made the list ;-). Yes, I'm a subscriber. The fact that Matt Resnicoff keeps Allan's name in print is a big reason... in all honesty, sometimes I wonder if I've been delivered a copy of People magazine by mistake... oooh, I'm getting catty in my old age. :) Anyway, in that issue, there were ten mentions of his name and *six* photos of him. How's *that* for fanatical devotion? ;) >However, >neither of our two favorite Crimson axeslingers made the list! I can't >comprehend how certain players (like that blowhard Malmsteen) can be >considered to be somehow "better" than either Robert or Adrian, especially >Robert. The folks at Musician cannot plead ignorance since Robert wrote >for them! How anyone can forget the man who composed and performed the >Lark's Tongue in Aspic series is beyond me. I think more than anything else, Musician was trying to assert their editors' opinions on the most *influencial* guitarists -- lots of *great* players were left off that list. Even on the premise of "most influential," I certainly can't agree with all of their choices; for one thing, I think it's tough to predict how the current players with less than 20 or 30 years on the scene are going to influence future trends. Someone like Fripp or Belew (or for that matter, Holdsworth), while they may have some immediate, short-term influences on playing styles, are IMO unlikely to have the same impact on players that Chuck Berry and the Beatles had. A lot of that has to do with the fractionalization of music since that time -- as much as we bemoan the current MTV mentality, where popular music is concerned, the playing field is much wider today than it was thirty years ago. Unfortunately, progressive rock hasn't had enough big players on the field in the last decade or so for us to be able to point to people like Fripp and say with any certainty that "He's going to be a big factor in the future of guitar." I myself don't consider progressive rock's future a very bright one, considering that the major labels are more interested in worn-out reunion albums than in new, fresh music in that genre. With that in mind, I'm less than confident that progressive rock's best artists will have much impact on what is to come. >Before I rant some more, I guess we should bear in mind that these kind of >lists are subjective at best. Guitar Player's 25 Who Shook the World list >included Adrian but not Robert and The Guitar Handbook's The Guitar >Innovators list includes Robert but not Adrian. I give these type of lists exactly the importance they deserve; they don't change what *is*, so there's no loss to what has gone before. There may be something positive to come out of a list like this, though -- if someone seeks out some of the artists mentioned, and widens their musical horizons. That's always a good thing, IMO. Jeff -- | Jeff Preston - owner and moderator of | "We don't get many requests | | the Allan Holdsworth discussion forum | for recent history." -- Mr. | | *** To subscribe, send e-mail to: *** | Atoz, from the '69 Star Trek | | | episode _All Our Yesterdays_ | [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 13 Feb 93 16:20 PST From: ken at wet dot uucp (kenneth stuart) Subject: CDs in the UK Hello, Yes, I too have noticed that Fripp seems to like to change things for the CD release. I have been waiting for "God Save the Queen" to be released on CD. But, instead he released it as "God Save the King" with different tracks, and as I hear, extensively remixed. I think that this is because, in the UK, the LP format is not yet dead, in the same way that it is in the US ( ....how about an update from UK readers of Discipline? ). And, CDs in the UK are much more expensive than either LPs or than CDs are in the U.S. . So, the phenomenon of the U.S. where people junk all their LPs is not as prevalent in the UK, and so it is more expected that fans still have their original LP version, and so the CD version can be used to create a different release ( and Gary Numan has done the same thing... the CD release has more extended versions of the songs than the original LP release [for the "Numa"-era recordings] ). Cheers, Ken P.S. Actually, I too, was not so impressed with Sylvian (I have "Gone to Earth").... not bad, just not impressed. P.P.S. Eno has been known to tour --- but not to play music! He gave a lecture tour a few years back (about "music for non-musicians" if I remember correctly) and more recently, he toured with his art -- he created rooms that you go in and look at art with ambient music playing (you can sample this at home by obtaining his "Thursday Afternoon" video -- you are asked to put your T.V. on its side, though!). [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1993 15:02:48 -0800 From: Chris Stelzer Subject: Sounds at the ends of disks Does the gap at the end of the Great Deceiver disk remind anyone else of the end of _Islands_? At least my CD copy has several minutes of silence followed by the band tuning up in the studio. Also, the mellotron discussion in GD fits in with Fripp's rantings about the instrument in the set's booklet. Chris [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: cs163wel at sdcc8 dot UCSD dot EDU (Paolo Valladolid) Subject: Re: Instruments (Guitar Synth) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 14:04:57 PST I didn't see any other guitar synth players on the instrument survey, at least other than myself, but I'll ask this anyway: Anybody out there play a Roland GR700 guitar synth (the synth used by Adrian Belew to good effect in "The Howler","Three of a Perfect Pair", and quite a few other Crimson tunes)? I have some patches that I got from Gayle Ellett of Djam Karet; including the truly psychedelic Psycho Synth patch that he used on "A City With Two Tales Revisited". If anyone would like to trade patches or would just like to have the Ellett patch, email me as I don't want to take up space here. Also, I have addresses at home for _MIDI Guitarist_ magazine (which recently interviewed Adrian Belew) and for the band Djam Karet (they sell their music by direct mail). Email me for those as well. -- ******************************************************************************** Paolo Valladolid pvallado at sdcc13 dot ucsd dot edu LSD, a drug that turns hippies into yuppies; the most dangerous chemical known to mankind... -Frank Zappa [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 15 Feb 93 07:29:12 MST From: pmartz at dsd dot es dot com (Paul Martz) Subject: Exposure > Re _Exposure_: one interesting (annoying!) thing is that even mildly > determined collectors (such as myself) need to own both the album and the > CD, since a number of tracks have not only been substantially remixed for > the latter, but use completely different vocal takes. Just for the record, this remix is not a CD only release; I have the same thing on album. It is on EG records as EGLP41. It's quite a bit different from the original in many places. What I found disappointing was that the inner sleeve of the remix album lacked the lyrics and credits! Since I don't own the original (only a tape of it) I don't have this information anymore. Is any kind soul out there willing to post it? -paul pmartz at dsd dot es dot com Evans & Sutherland [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 15 Feb 93 08:15:11 MST From: pmartz at dsd dot es dot com (Paul Martz) Subject: My Squelchy Life, revisited Okay, I'm finally gonna do it. After looking long and hard for a method, ANY method, to obtain a copy of Eno's aborted "My Squelchy Life" recordings, I am finally going to use the last resort: I'm going to write to Brian Eno himself and ask him personally how I might obtain a copy of these recordings. Now the question is, how do I contact him? I have the address from "Nerve Net" for Opal Information, but I doubt this will be adequate. Does anyone know how to contact him? I'd settle for at least knowing what city he lives in. Any info is appreciated... -paul pmartz at dsd dot es dot com Evans & Sutherland [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1993 11:36:23 -0800 From: Chris Stelzer Subject: KC's new direction We've heard a lot lately about Sylvian. What about the other hypothetical members of the new King Crimson? Can anyone give some info about their styles, past projects, etc. Does anyone have any idea as to what direction KC is going to be going? stelzer at ocf dot berkeley dot EDU [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: cs163wel at sdcc8 dot UCSD dot EDU (Paolo Valladolid) Subject: Re: Crimson singers Date: Mon, 15 Feb 93 13:47:01 PST > Ryuchi Sakamoto (see especiallythe title track of his Heartbeat) and Bill I heard that Bill Frisell (who has been superficially compared to Fripp, just because of his mastery of the ElectroHarmonix Delay!) appears on this one. Can anyone confirm that? > What would he bring KC? Well, finally someone who can actually sing! IMHO Perhaps. This implies however that Adrian Belew couldn't sing. While everyone is entitled to opinions, I kinda liked the idea of King Crimson having as a frontman someone who used to prance around the stage in makeup and nylons ;-) I'd like to see how other Belew fans as well as Lake and Wetton fans react to the above statement. In Belew's words, he's "got a flat chest, but he makes up for it" ;-) I agree with Malcolm that both Belew and Sylvian be in the band. If Sylvian is really that great a vocalist, it sure wouldn't hurt to still have Belew on guitar as a complement to Fripp, so we can still have the interesting dark vs. light clashes. -- ******************************************************************************** Paolo Valladolid pvallado at sdcc13 dot ucsd dot edu LSD, a drug that turns hippies into yuppies; the most dangerous chemical known to mankind... -Frank Zappa [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] To join this mailing list or have your thoughts in the next issue, please send electronic mail to Toby Howard at the following address: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk The Discipline archives are available on ftp.uwp.edu, in /pub/music/lists/discipline. The views expressed in Discipline are those of the individual authors only.