From toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Thu Jun 18 09:16:41 1992 Date: Tue, 15 Oct 91 16:44:37 BST From: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: discipline #8 discipline, Number 8 Tuesday, 15 October 1991 Today's Topics: Re: remixes vs. originals General Intros KC/Fripp Albums A case of the DTs Re: mellotron (again) Sheltering Sky Fripp K.C. Journals & Gibralatar list Fripp clones and tributes [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: 6600sage at UCSBUXA dot EARN Date: Fri, 11 Oct 91 21:12:44 PDT Subject: I've been on this mailer since 'Discipline #3,' but so far have not had the time nor the motivation to throw in my five hay- pennies worth. A complete breakdown of my opinions of every King Crimson song would be exhaustive and really bore the hell out of you, so I will concentrate on a few songs I have in my mind at this time...feel free to flame me to hell and back. I don't have any particular favorite album or song; there are many songs I like *a lot* and many albums I like *a lot*. But there are a few songs which stand out to me; one is 'Frame By Frame,' from the 'Discipline' album. This is one of those rare instances when a 5-4 time signature actually _works_. (I have heard countless musicians incorporate 5-4 signatures into music to make a 'new sound' for the work, except that they generally end up writing a 4-4 melody which becomes really twisted, and the overall effect is downright nauseating). The song itself is intriguing, but I still get most excited over the ending, where the two independent guitar tracks start in unison, diverge to a cacophynous polyrhythm, and gradually move back to a unison.s I also like the same sort of chaotic sounds on 'The Howler,' from the 3oaPP album. I also enjoy the majority of his 1973-1974 works. On 'Starless and Bible Black,' there are two great Fripp solos on 'Fracture' and 'The Night Watch.' The augmented chord is one of my favorites in all types of music -- that is the entire foundation of 'Fracture,' and Fripp plays it well. 'The Night Watch,' in addition to having great playing, has great lyrics, too (I point this out, since in whole, I haven't been particularly interested in the poetry of Palmer-James). As a whole, the 'Red' album's 'Starless and Bible Black' comes together as one of their best 'complete' pieces. It has elements ranging from their earliest styles, to their mid-70's tracks, to a slight foreshadowing of music to come. Great track. On the subjecyt of great Fripp solos, I can't forget two of the songs which finalised my conversion to Fripp music -- '20th Century Schizoid Man' from the first album, and 'Sartori in Tangier' off of 'Beat.' After hearing them for the two hundredth time, I still dig the sound and get way into the intricate solos... Ask me any questions, and I will give you a slough of honest opinions. Over and out. -eliot, a musician [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 11 Oct 91 16:31:07 PDT From: "John M. Relph" Subject: Re: remixes vs. originals Brian Patrick Arnold writes: > Since my article today stresses accuracy, I must >mention that both of these "remixed" songs are in fact the originals. >Fripp simply left out his dubbed solo on Matte Kudasai, and it was Bob >Clearmountain's remixing that created the version of Sleepless we all >know and love. So on the original UK release of _Discipline_ was it the dubbed or undubbed version of "Matte Kudasai" that was included? On my US LP it is the dubbed version (which I prefer). >The original unmixed version is quite exactly the one on >the Compact King Crimson, and as you report, now replaces the remix on >Three of a Perfect Pair. I personally prefer Bob Clearmountain's >version, I think he did a fantastic job on it. Yes, I also prefer the Bob Clearmountain version, and I ask the same question as for "Matte Kudasai": was the unmixed version included on original UK pressings of the LP? -- John [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 11 Oct 91 22:47:04 -0500 From: michaell Subject: General Intros I just signed up for this list a few days ago, and I figured I'd send a general introduction of myself.... My name is Michael Lee, I'm a junior CS major at the University of Wisconsin Madison, and I've been listening to Crimson for about four and a half years now (wow). My favorite KC albums are at the start of three of the era's: Court, Lark's and Discipline. I've obviously never seen KC live, but I did see the Crafties twice, once with Fripp. A friend of mine was nearly run over by Fripp. I own every album except _Lizard_ ('cause my roommate does) and a number of bootlegs -- some of the more common ones, and a few I don't think are as common. Other bands that I like are the ones you'd expect...Yes, Pink Floyd, Marillion, I was glad to see I wasn't the only one to see a Primus/KC similarity..... Michael Lee [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 13 Oct 91 21:19:13 BST From: Bertie Subject: KC/Fripp Albums Hello ! I'm new to this mailing list so you'll have to forgive me if this has been brought up before ... First of all I'd like to say how good it is to know that other Crimson fans do exist. As only a new disciple myself, they seem all too few and far between ! However, now I've found some more seasoned Crimson followers; perhaps someone could answer this query ? What I want to have is a full King Crimson/Fripp album discography - which is particularly important to me as my collection is still growing. Which is why I also want to know about availability of said albums on CD. So far I have all the 80's KC albums as well as Lark's and Starless. I have a copy of USA (from vinyl) on tape which I assume has been deleted. What I'm really interested in though is Fripp's solo work outside Crimson. You see I have a copied version of " The League of Gentlemen " on tape, but to my amazement I discovered (yesterday) a compilation on CD (date'85) of tracks from this album and other late 70's Fripp solos ! What is this ? Is it a rarity - because I've never seen it before ? Are the other albums still available individually on CD ? Could they be ordered through a store or elsewhere ? Also am I right in thinking that there is to be a Fripp as well as a Crimson box set released ? What other King Crimson/Fripp goodies am I missing ? So many questions, and not enough answers - so can anybody help ????? Paul aka Bertie. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 13 Oct 91 19:05:11 PDT From: walters at agar dot Metaphor dot com (Tim Walters) Subject: A case of the DTs "When you say 'Dylan', he thinks you're talkin' 'bout Dylan Thomas! Whoever he was... The man ain't got no culture!" -- Simon and Garfunkel Brian inquires: Stupid trivia question (I don't know the answer, but the question is compelling, at least to me, which is why I added "stupid"): Has anybody noticed that the back cover title "Starless and Bible Black" on both old LPs and new CDs has the dots of the dotted i's raised typographically above the letters? What is the meaning? I think it's just a feature of the typeface. _Larks' Tongues_, which uses the same typeface, has the same feature. In the words "King Crimson", the lower-case letters are large in relation to the capitals, raising the i dots even further. What I think is really interesting is that the typeface seems to have been chosen to harmonize with the "this night wounds time" typeface, which comes from a Victorian novel called "A Human Monument" (treated extracts from this book are used by Tom Phillips in all his work). But how did they know, when they released _Larks' Tongues_ before _Starless_, to use the same typeface? MORE THAN COINCIDENCE???? More seriously, Tom Phillips also has an illustrated version of Dante's _Inferno_ that is absolutely stunning. (He did the translation as well.) Fun trivia question (I know the answer, but I want somebody well versed in the answer to reply!): "Acknowledgement to D.T." and the title to "Starless and Bible Black; who is D.T. and where did the phrase "Starless and Bible Black" come from? This one is easy. Dylan Thomas, _Under Milk Wood_. "To begin at the beginning: "It is Spring, moonless night in the small town, starless and bible-black, the cobblestreets silent and the hunched, courters'-and-rabbits' wood limping invisible down to the sloeblack, slow, black, crowblack, fishingboat-bobbing sea." Why Crimso left out the (grammatically necessary) hyphen remains a mystery. What this has to do with their music is an even greater mystery. Nifty writing, though. Silly trivia related-question (I know there's an answer, I just forgot): What was the phrase Bill Bruford liked to use instead of "Starless and Bible Black"? "Clueless and Turtle Green"? "Gormless and Baby Blue"? "Harmless and China White"? Tim [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: rga at rti dot rti dot org Subject: Re: mellotron (again) Date: 13 Oct 91 23:46:14 GMT In article <490 at sgfb dot ssd dot ray dot com> iws at sgfb dot ssd dot ray dot com (Ihor W. Slabicky) writes: >In article <10415 at vela dot acs dot oakland dot edu>, rjohnson at vela dot acs dot oakland dot edu (R o d Johnson) writes: >> >King Crimson: On "In the Court of the Crimson King" (mid-late'69). Played >> > by Robert Fripp. >> >> Ian MacDonald, not Fripp. You might look at the MacDonald and Giles >> and Giles, Giles and Fripp albums too. > >G, G & F does not use the mellotron. > >The mellotron was used on the first five King Crimson albums: >In The Court, Poseidon, Lizard, Earthbound, and Islands. > >Hell, these guys loved it so much, they even dragged one around >and played it a their concerts. A friend of mine that saw Crimson around 1973 said that they used TWO mellotrons on stage - one on the right and one on the left. I don't know if Fripp and David Cross would play at the same time, though. [N.B. - This same friend later purchased a mellotron for around $200 !] [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 14 Oct 91 11:08:03 -0500 From: rjf at maxwell dot physics dot purdue dot edu (Robert J. Friedman III) Subject: Sheltering Sky Errr...ummm... Brian, the guy's name is Paul Bowles not Todd (author of "The Sheltering Sky" that is). I think the book tries too hard to be deep and existentialist. A movie was recently made of the book. Anyone see it? Any good? It doesn't really matter what I think of it though, the music inspired by it is fantastic! KC's "The Sheltering Sky" is one of my favorite tunes that they ever made (fun to play too!). Interestingly enough, the Police's "Tea in the Sahara" is also based on this book (one of the stories told to the traveller Kit). Another great song from the same inspiration! Hmmmnnn... Maybe I'll have to read it again. -Bob -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "Let music never become just another ! "Life is too important to way of making money." -Keith Tippet ! be taken seriously" -Oscar Wilde Bob Friedman is at rjf at maxwell dot physics dot purdue dot edu -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 14 Oct 91 12:40:28 PDT From: malcolm%yuba at wrs dot uucp (Malcolm Humes) Subject: Fripp K.C. Journals & Gibralatar list Fripp journals available from Gibraltar: Some of you folks may not be aware that there's a "progressive music" mailing list that covers a lot of 1970-90's progrock of Crimson ilk. In fact there has been frequent discussion of Fripp and Crimson there, and there's old digests and files available from an automated file server. I found that there's copies of Fripp's King Crimson journals from 1968-1975 there available for anyone that wants. I believe these were taken from the booklet that accompanied A Young Person's Guide to King Crimson, an excellent lp retrospective that came out some years ago, now available on japanese cd. I don't know if the cd has the complete liner notes and am curious about that. This release contains a rare Crimson song, Groon, and also an alternate version of I Talk to The Wind with a woman on vocals. Anyway, the list is distributed in a moderated digest format, much like Discipline is, so it won't constantly clog your mailbox with new mail. There is an index by topic that I'm in the process of updating right now. I have confirmed with moderator is Michael Lamoureux that non-list "members" are welcome to use the mail server archives. Anyone who wants to join the list can write to this address to be added: gibraltar-request at maestro dot mitre dot org {for admin stuff} Or to just have the server send the Fripp journals: {1st, Please read my complete comments below before using it and don't be too greedy or access may get restricted or delayed.} send mail to : gibraltar-server at maestro dot mitre dot org {for mail archive access} No Subject necessary, just have text that says: send king.crimson.1968 send king.crimson.1969 send king.crimson.1970 send king.crimson.1971 send king.crimson.1972 send king.crimson.1973 send king.crimson.1974 send king.crimson.1975 and if you use an auto sig, make sure the last line of your mail is "quit" or it'll hang. Otherwise quit is not needed. I'd suggest batching the above into two requests for 4 files each. Also I'd suggest not doing this as soon as you get this info or there may be a massive rush on the sending host and repercussions as 50 people try at once. Wait a few hours or days, ok? And send it before you leave for the day instead of at 10am EST. There are instructions for the Server available by sending it the command: send help you can also have it send an index by: send index or send topical.index (not totally up to date at the moment) Since the archives are on a machine on the moderator's desk he requests that traffic be limited during working hours so as not to tie up his machine too much. Basically, don't tie up his machine by sending large requests or it may cause him to have second thoughts about offering such a service or a delayed send to be initiated. I'll post the revised topical index listings of Fripp and Crimson references in old digests in the archives if people want me to do this (when it is updated), and then you could ask for the back issues that are referenced if you want to explore further without joining the Gibraltar list. Or you can just have it send the current, unrevised topical index and start checking out the back issues that talk about Crimson and Fripp anytime you want. Have fun. - malcolm at wrs dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 14 Oct 91 12:55:00 PDT From: malcolm%yuba at wrs dot uucp (Malcolm Humes) Subject: Fripp clones and tributes I'll bet someone could put together a great compilation tape of some excellent Fripp/Crimson sounding music from the piles of stuff that make obvious or not so obvious references to Fripp's pretty unique guitar sounds. Some nominations for Fripp-a-like guitarists: Richard Pinhas - Heldon and Solo Work (74-80s) Franco Falsini - Sensations Fix (mid 70's) Bi Kyo Ran - japanese Krimson clones, pretty good. Bond Bergland - Saqqara Dogs and solo lp (late 80's) Bill Nelson - (80's) Andy Summers - Police ("Mother" -Synchronicity) and solo/duo work with Fripp (83?- ?) Frank Zappa - check out "Republicans" on Guitar II cd (1984 live) Can - "Unfinished" on Landed lp/cd (1975) sounds like later mid-70's King Crimson Van Der Graaf - Least We could Do is Wave lp Adrian Belew - how could I leave him off this list? Crafty Guitarists - how could I leave them off this list? (YY - YY) indicates approximate years recorded ** quoted from memory so it may not be 100% accurate... Disclaimer: I like most or all of the above artists, and would highly recommend any Fripp fan to seek out and at least hear some of these. Some of them tend to sound like Fripp in tribute to him, or so I believe. This is actually supported by references on lps by Sensations Fix ("Dear Robert, The Heavenly Music Corporation is alive and well here")** on the back cover of Fragments of Light) and Heldon and Pinhas. Perhaps VDDG "Whatever would Robert have said?" on the lp I mentioned is also directed to Fripp. Heldon's 2nd lp Allez Teia sounds very very much like Fripp & Eno but is heavier on the synths and actually is a band and not just tape loops. It's really beautiful and I've always considered it in a class with or above the Fripp & Eno work, I think in some ways there's more depth to the Heldon lp. This one is supposed to come out on cd on Cuneiform/Wayside very soon. A later solo lp by Pinhas titled L'Ethique is also due out on cd and this one is one of his best and includes a track titled "Dedicated to K.C." which kicks! It sounds like it could be late 70's Crimson or even something like Breathless >from Fripp's Exposure, but the whole release also has a very heavy analog synth sound. I'm convinced the Zappa track is a subtle parody of 1984ish Crimson, I saw this perfomed live and was laughing hard at this part, it was so un-zappalike, and so much like Crimson who'd toured a few months before. Van Der Graaf later featured Fripp producing and playing on some of their lps, but this I think predates working with Fripp but has a track or two that sound pretty Frippy and possibly refer to him in the title of one track. Summer's "Mother" I think was done shortly after the 1st Fripp/Summers collaboration, and it reeks of Fripp/Crimson. ** quoted from memory so quote may not be 100% accurate... I'd be interested in hearing any other suggestions of music that has a Frippy sound to it. - malcolm at wrs dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] To join this group or have your thoughts in the next issue, please send electronic mail to Toby Howard at the following address: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk The views expressed in discipline are those of the individual authors only.