Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #793 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 793 Thursday, 21 December 2000 Today's Topics: the audience at a KC show ... some italian composer? U.S.A. - The Long Awaited CD Issue Deeper meanings/Book of Saturdays Crimson Audiences KCCC 12: Copyrights KC's music business woes BTV Re: Kurzweil Mellotron Samples combining tracks Re: Notes without rest...! Re: Kurzweil Mellotron Samples Lots of stuff Re: mistranslation Re: Notes without rest...! violation Re: Ownership issue Re: Crimson Odditties & "Photo Sets" Exposure/vinyl/Napster(uggh) Heavy C improv titles Re: Thrush and other things mistranslation - 2 Talk: Women and KC ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:19:51 -0500 From: "James J. Hannigan" Subject: the audience at a KC show >>>the audience seems to be (to my untrained eyes) mostly >>>caucasian. i wonder if it is a question of marketing, cultural I'm going to go out on a limb and say "that's who tends to like prog." What does mostly mean? 90%? 65%? Would one express wonder that a Snoop Doogy Dogg show had a "mostly" black audience? Or that a Barry Manilow audience was largely female? Or that a Buddy Guy concert will be mostly white? >>>even in a city like washington dc, where the white population is >>>clearly in the minority. They are only the minority in the city limits. The existence of trains and highways renders show location meaningless. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:26:24 -0600 From: nic dot roozeboom at philips dot com Subject: ... some italian composer? on Sun, 17 Dec 2000 08:48:12 -0800 (PST), jan geerts wrote: ... Fifth by Genesis, and Libertango by some Italian composer (covered by Grace Jones as 'Strange, I've Seen This Place Before). These songs go pr... (Ahem) - Let me help you out here: "some Italian composer" is the late Argentine composer/bandoneonist/tango innovator Astor Piazzolla. Best regards, Nic ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:24:26 EST From: JCarr73729 at aol dot com Subject: U.S.A. - The Long Awaited CD Issue On Robert Fripp's DGM diary entry for 14 December 2000, he says:- "We have booked time to remaster "Discipline", "Beat", "Three Of A Perfect Pair" & USA during the second week of January." Looks like we might see it in the Spring? Regards and Merry Christmas. John. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:24:49 EST From: JasJohns22 at aol dot com Subject: Deeper meanings/Book of Saturdays One scenario: awakening after a night of passion aboard a sail-boat in the Caribbean... feeling respectfully amourous; describing the thrill of sailing a 'classic' vessel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:46:37 -0500 From: Ted White Subject: Crimson Audiences In ET #791, Elfinster (Carlos Schroder) said: "i agree with josette's observation that most of the audience at kc concert seems to be male. i would also add to that that at least in the us--east coast/major cities--the audience seems to be (to my untrained eyes) mostly caucasian. i wonder if it is a question of marketing, cultural borders, or what. in my experience--and i am not generalizing here--most concerts i attended in which the bands were of the prog-rock persuasion, had overwhelming white audiences. even in a city like washington dc, where the white population is clearly in the minority." While I can't argue with this assertion, I'd like to add as a sidebar my experience as a radio deejay in Washington D.C. in the late '70s: I did a Friday afternoon show on WGTB-FM, a station then well-known for being one of the most progressive in the country. I occasionally played King Crimson tracks. And every time I did I got phone calls from black listeners who wanted to know what I was playing and where they could buy a copy (information I was happy to provide). My strong impression then was that the '70s Crimson had a potentially large black audience. --TW (Dr P) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:43:29 -0000 From: "Cameron Devlin" Subject: KCCC 12: Copyrights The problem clearly lies in Greg Lake. He and Fripp seem to be on bad terms these days. I just can't see McDonald or Giles stopping this. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:01:18 -0800 From: "Cerquone, Suzanne" Subject: KC's music business woes Martin wrote this about the music business: >>Now the chart performance. On the same day TOCL was released, Virgin also issued A Perfect Circle. I saw ads placed in music industry rags for a Perfect Circle but nothing about TCOL. The result was shown in Billboard Magazine. A Perfect Circle debuts at #1. TCOL didn't chart.>> You can't seriously think that trade advertising charts records, do you? Trade ads are for labels to tout either what they feel is the "next best thing," or brag about the continuing success of their big-selling artists. It's bragging rights, an announcement. Other jaded, cynical music biz people will look at the ad and say, "ho hum." Just like you did with A Perfect Circle, right? Or did you run right out and buy the record based on that ad? >>What worried me when I saw this was the description of this album. They were trying to sell this to the techno/rave fans out there because of the TCOL's electronically rooted sound. Well, that audience didn't buy it, and many long time Crimson fans didn't buy it because it wasn't marketed nor promoted to the Crimson fan base. Somebody ought to tell the technical writing dweebs hired by Virgin the differences of "electric" music and "electronica.">> Sometimes this is the only marketing avenue a record label can take. Think about it: King Crimson's popularity has ebbed and flowed over the last 30 years. Right now we could all agree it's more of an ebb than a flow. So Virgin has to think of new audiences for the band. Techno fans are a logical choice - it's a vital genre, and there might be a few thousand fans who would dig the "electric sensibilities" of TCOL. Prog rockers weren't the only people to buy Radiohead's Kid A. I would imagine a good amount of the techno crowd checked out that CD, too. Suzanne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:57:25 -0500 From: "David Schroeder" Subject: BTV I just wanted to make statement about how people are feeling "let down" by what has happened (and not happened) with Bootleg TV. First off I myself am disappointed that the original plan to release all the shows from the TCoL tour did not materialize as planned; however, the obvious reason is because there were not enough people 'preordering' the shows to make it financially possible and worthwhile. It seems there must not have been a great response to the idea from the targeted consumer to make this work the way it was initially intended. I went to BTV the moment I found out about it and checked off to purchase everything that was going to be released, as I'm sure many other collectors did; however, I certainly wouldn't expect a company to produce 25 double cds and a selection of videos if they didn't think they would profit from it. Hopefully the future will see a few more 'Heavy ConstruKction' type releses for each leg of this incredible tour, and possibly a DVD. Until then I'll wait to see what emerges and buy it as soon as it comes out. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:53:39 -0500 From: "Burant, Alan" Subject: Re: Kurzweil Mellotron Samples > Anybody know of Mellotron samples available for Kurzweil K2500/K2600 synths? >They are probably available in audio, AKAI S1000 format and probably >others.Try east-west sounds. Go to mellotron.com They have a CD-Rom with remastered mellotron samples in AKAI S1000 format. According to David Kean of Mellotron, it will work with most samplers except Roland models. It works beautifully with my EMU Ultra5000. It has over 30 samples of the Mk II, M300, M400 and Chamberlin tape sets. The CD-Rom was created by the new Mellotron Company (David Kean and a Swedish partner) and Mike Pinder (ex-Moody Blues who also worked for Streetly Electronics who made the original Mellotron). The CD-Rom has been used by Smashing Pumpkins, Anekdoten, Richard Thompson and many others - the list is on their website (very cool site). They also build Mk VI units in Calgary, Canada and Sweden. Oasis and Mitchell Froom are recent clients. Charles Simpson posted: >Hello fellow Crimso FREAKS,You know, I'd like to hear about more Crimson >influenced bands, as opposedto bands who play Crimson music. I'm not >talking about popular bands likeMetallica or any of the bands who've some >link to Crimson. I'm talking abouttalented bands & musicians who have no >personal link to Crimson or any ofthe members, former or present. Good >honest music, with a good flavor. Iknow they're out there. Ahhhhh, a chance for self-promotion. I released a CD in early 2000 called Alan Burant - Occam's Razor. While I can't say it is all Crimson-influenced, there certainly is some influence, including the title track and the lead-off track, "Vertigo". The CD is domestically released in Canada and the US. "Vertigo" is available to listen or download on MP3.com or my website www.activerecs.com It is also reveiwed on the Gibraltar Encyclopedia of Progressive Rock (www.gepr.net) If your neighbourhood retailer does not have, it is available at all online vendors and my website. The CD has been positively received internationally with radio or other media exposure in France, Brazil, Netherlands, Germany and Italy. It has probably been a tougher sell in Canada and the US!!! I admit there are a couple of pop cuts (more in the nature of "Heartbeat" than say anything like Bryan Adams) but hopefully this adds to the experience. Take care Alan Burant ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 03:27:27 -0000 From: "Woody" Subject: combining tracks frank zappa was the most divine creator of multi venue track mixing, using instruments from different gigs, and also different perfomances, and combining them to create a most pleasing sonic bombardment. Woody @ Osmosis Productions woody at osprod dot freeserve dot co dot uk funzig2000 at hotmail dot com www.funzig.com pondering the ponderable in a ponderous ponderational ponder. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.219 / Virus Database: 103 - Release Date: 12/5/00 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:24:36 -0600 From: "Grant Colburn" Subject: Re: Notes without rest...! Ryan wrote: >A note of curiosity: if Robert prefers Pat's sense of rhythm and >timing to Bill's counterplaying, why does he always choose the latter role >in any guitar duet piece? "Frame by Frame," "Discipline," "Three of a >Perfect Pair," and dozens of others all have Fripp playing very >Bruford-like, slippery patterns over more conventional 4/4 or 3/4 Belew >lines. I think that on this level, the Fripp-Bruford duo possesses greater >relevance to Crimson's music than the obviously more popular Fripp-Belew >pairing. Interesting observation. I think there are a few reasons for what you are asking that are fairly conventional when you think about it. The first thing you bring up is about Fripp and Bruford's tendency to counterplay. For me at least there can definitely be too much of a good thing! :-) And I feel Fripp thinks that as well. If one assumes that Fripp had a level of leadership within KC before Bruford came in, it is Fripp's style to be the disruptive force in a lot of the music he plays. He more or less should be granted that role if you are planning on joining in King Crimson with him. Its what Fripp DOES. Bruford knew this coming into KC way back in the 70's. I think for the disruption that Fripp creates, he likes to have some type of dependable backdrop or structure of to contrast against it. I also think unlike Bruford, Fripp really has an interest in "body" music, music that's at times danceable (like League of Gentlemen, Sylvian/Fripp, Bowie, etc.) though of course still potentially weird as hell. He likes music with groove, even if its groovin' in 11/8. Disruption in the drums can potentially kill groove. Now that may not be necessarily a bad thing to everyone, but I think its something that Fripp isn't into, Simple as that. The other thing with the whole Bill/Pat difference in drumming (and I've said this before) is that Pat writes PARTS for songs. I think due to Fripp's study of 20th century classical music, he's into the element of composition, and by that I don't mean that he wants to Zappa like, and write everyone else's parts. I think he wants to create "group" compositions where each member contributes to the writing and provides what they think to be the part for the piece. Pieces likeTCOL and FraKctured are extremely detailed in their arrangements and other than solos and some subtle rhythm section variation they are set compositions. I don't think Bruford and Fripp agree on how to deal with composition. Bruford has more or less said he has no interest in sticking with the same parts. Fripp likes to compose and Bruford likes to improvise over compositions. I think they just had different views on music after awhile. The other part you bring up is Belew and Fripp's style together. That's also a pretty easy thing to explain. Again, Fripp was into what he did before Belew joined. The other thing is of course that Belew is a songwriter and most guitar songs use chords. He also is a drummer and probably thinks guitar very much in a "rhythm" guitar kind of way. Though of course he can shred in solos, I think his usual style with the music he writes is chord based. Combine that with Fripp probably saying, "Hey, I'm gonna play this fast pattern in 13/8, maybe you could try some chords or something?" and you get things as they seem to be. Your final point of the Fripp/Bruford pairing being more relevant is just personal opinion. I for one like the music of Fripp far more than the music of Bruford, and at this day in the game, I really want to hear what Fripp can come up with in a band atmosphere which isn't stressing him out to the degree that the bands with Bruford seemed to always become. Music should be fun and uplifting, not filled with debate. >Anybody can play straight, jazzless, eighth-note arpeggios with >another person, slightly out of time, and make it sound somewhat like 80's >Crim. Don't jump down my throat; I didn't say anybody WOULD...that's what >makes King Crimson special. No offense or throat jumping intending, but though you may play guitar, you sound pretty clueless about music. If you think for a moment that "anybody" can play a pattern in an odd time signature let alone in one different than other people in the band, your are highly mistaken. They are not what you would call "slightly" out of time. They usually share a common pulse with the rest of the band (8th notes, 16ths etc.) They are entirely IN time, just not in the SAME time. >Hell, I can achieve much the same effect with >a rhythmic delay effect on my guitar, "Much" the same effect maybe, but I its definitely not "the same." From how you described the above, I would be surprised that you could really play a steady odd beat pattern over a straight pulse, let alone able to back your opinion that "anybody" can. Try setting you metronome to quarter notes, then pick 5 notes to play in even 8th notes against it. See how long you last before you need to sit down and work at it. Now consider the pulse is in 13/8 and you are going to play heavy chords in a 5/4 riff. You really think "anybody" can do this without lot's of practice and dedication? >but if I'd never heard of Robert >Fripp, I probably would have thought such a musical concept was silly. About as silly as a canons, fugues, inventions etc. Take a canon, it sounds so simple. Just start one part. Then after a few measures bring in the other part playing the same thing a few notes later while the first part continues onto newer parts. Sounds easy? Now make it interesting and modulate (as most classical music does). Still too easy? Now do it with 3 parts, each coming in one step higher than the last. It all sounds silly till you try it. >But the very fact that the same tension-and-release element of such phrasing is >always perfectly captured, complimented, or counterbalanced by Bill's style >makes me wonder why Robert decided to continue without him. Well, this is totally a matter of opinion. I think what you often hear is compromise and at this point Fripp and Bruford are better off on their own. You need to get along for music to be enjoyable and I don't think they do anymore, they each know what they want and it isn't really a shared vision. >Perhaps he wasn't aware that they had so much in common when it came to >keeping time? I think Fripp is aware of something, but I don't think he (or I) would agree that they had much at all in common with keeping time. >Or maybe he was aware, and wanted something new? Yup, see above..... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:31:02 +0000 From: Gareth Bouch Subject: Re: Kurzweil Mellotron Samples My mail's been down - so can't find the original questioner, but try Greytsounds at http://www.greytsounds.com I've just checked their site and they do Kurzweil stuff including Mellotron and Chamberlin - I've got these from them for Akai and they're very good for definitive Mellotron typestrings and flutes and choirs: very convincing. Hope this helps, Best, Gareth >> S M A L L C R E E P << Made with Macintosh http://www.smallcreep.com CDs via Nightbreed, Resurrection & Metalhead ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:21:16 -0500 From: Randall dot Hammill at hartfordlife dot com Subject: Lots of stuff First, I have been informed several times that the Brian May who did the Road Warrior soundtrack is not the Brian May of Queen. Thanks for the info, I must do better research in the future. Next I have some replies to several posts. These are not directed towards anybody in particular, just the threads. 1. Fripp and Bruford Based off of interviews and comments by Robert, as well as other members, Robert seems to have trouble with Bill's tendency to change his part. The letter to Bill that Robert printed (It's in the Frame by Frame booklet I think) makes this somewhat clear. It got to the point where they used a drum machine on the Three of a Perfect Pair tour (although I cannot hear it on the video or Absent Lovers). This may have been one of the reasons why Ade played drums on several songs as well on the tour. In the '80s and the Double Trio, Robert was also working in a mindset that said that if one musician fills a space, that precludes somebody else from filling it, so play less. He has expressly stated in recent interviews that he is now allowing himself to take up that space, before others do. Robert has even requested that Pat and Trey tone back some of their mayhem (specifically in FraKtctured) because he found it difficult to play with their part. On the other hand, I remember Pat saying that when he started playing with Sylvian and Fripp that he was keeping tie on a high-hat during one of the quieter sections without drums. Robert stopped the song and asked Pat what he was doing. When Pat replied that he was keeping the time (which most other bands more or less require), Robert told him to stop, that is not his job. If the musicians cannot keep their own time, they shouldn't be playing with this band. As far as Bill leaving the band, this seems to be for several reasons. In recent interviews Adrian says he told Robert he wanted the next Crimson to be a quartet. Robert did not want to wait until everybody's side projects were finished. Bill wanted to use acoustic drums (and even stated that he didn't much care for ProjeKct 2 because they sounded flat with the electronic drums), and was working with Earthworks. He also didn't like the new music that had been presented at the 1997 rehearsals. He has also stated that he would probably only consider playing with Crimson again if Tony was inthe band. Tony was going to be touring with Seal (which was cancelled), then Peter Gabriel (who knows when that will happen), so Tony and Bill were out for this round basically because of scheduling issues. When the Seal tour was cancelled, Tony talked to Robert, but Robert felt they were too far into the Double Duo project to change the line-up at that point. For those who don't recall, in the early 90's Crimson was originally supposed to get back together as a quartet, with Jerry Marotta on drums. Because of the legal problems with EG the whole thing was pushed back several years. By then, Robert had determined that Jerry wasn't the right drummer for the band, and then he came upon the Double Trio. 2. Bootleg TV/LiveTV/Bootleg Networks This has been an evolving concept since the Mexico City download. The KCTV page now states that they are working on expanding this as a new method for distribution of music and video, not just online concerts. They still indicate that CDs should be available, and this is also mentioned in the Heavy ConstruKction booklet. One of the comments that was made was that they were ahead of their time. I agree with this, though not for the same reasons. From my point of view the technology is largely available on the PC side. If you have an older computer, or a 56k line it will be slow, or may not work. But the technology exists for everybody to have a high speed internet connection. If not cable or DSL, satellite is available nationwide. However, the technology on the back-end is very much in development. They can already make the shows available, as they have proven. However, to do it quickly, with high-quality, and in a cost-effective manner is another issue. They are a new company, and I think that what they have found is that it takes more time than anticipated to get this up and running. This should not be a surprise, there have been many times when Robert has revealed his plans, only to find that it doesn't happen until years later in some cases. I don't see this as a problem, just look forward to the results. There have been very few times when Robert has not followed through on his plans. Since he allows us to see the process at the early stages of conception, through his diaries and other statements, we receive information far sooner than if it was another person or company. This is great because we find out info sooner, bad because the info is not always accurate. To me Robert seems to be very well organized, and very disciplined in what he does. To me, this means that he plans ahead, then plans to follow through on those plans. I strive to do the same thing, and this is one of the reasons why I admire Robert so much. Although external, and probably internal forces work against him (and us), he still follows through, with far more success than I am capable (or allow myself). Great intentions with little or no discipline will not lead to the results you intend. Because of the discipline that Robert applies, he achieves results. That doesn't mean that his plans will come to fruition when he originally intended. This is not a failure, this is reality. When talking about his Drive to 1981 he stated that he could only work with 3 year blocks of time, 4 was too long to comprehend, and 2 was too short a time to accomplish anything. Not everything happened according to plan (the release of Sacred Songs, for instance). I have seen references to his intention to do Guitar Craft (then Guitar Mechanics) as early as '74. This took nearly 10 years to come to fruition. Yet he routinely stated that he was working on it in the "next year or so." So relax, and let's see what unfolds. There is a lot of new music out there (I still haven't picked up all of Tony's side projects yet, like Liquid Tension Experiment), and talk of another Crim tour in the spring. There may even be a new studio album in the near future. And I look forward to being able to buy that box set of the European Tour when it is available. If it never becomes available, well, that's life. I'm still not sure when I will be able to listen to 30-something 2CD concerts anyway! Happy Holidays! Randy Hammill ps - maybe it would do us all some good to read some of Sister Fripp's books - maybe we can convince her to be the opening act and do a seminar before the Crim shows... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 16:17:25 -0500 From: "VDGP" Subject: Re: mistranslation Hello Kas and crimson-heads: Interesting note about the apparently mistaken translations in movie names and song titles. Of course the same happens in other languages. As a Peruvian, I speak Spanish and I have been very puzzled regarding the criteria used to choose the "right" or "proper" translation for a film or song name. The first film, for instance, I can recall is "Clockwork Orange", which was translated as "the mechanical orange". "The Silence Of The Lambs" turned to be "the silence of the innocents". "Killing Fields" became "silent screams". "The Cell", whose concept in the film means "chamber", "compartment" or "dudgeon", was translated using the Spanish word meaning "nucleus" or "unit". At the moment, there's a French film named "L'Ennui" (the annoyance) which was changed to "the perfect lover". Sometimes there's no translation. Examples: "Matrix", "Ghost", "Terminator", and so on. Here in my country, King Crimson were never popular enough to be considered "eligible" to broadcast their songs on the radio or get their albums released. The same happened to most prog-groups like Yes, Genesis, EL&P, etc. Most of their music was used for TV ads and shows or "background music" in supermarkets. I remember the song "Heartbeat", which was correctly translated, was teh only one played on the radio sometimes. I will use another song names as examples, such as: Yes's "Roundabout", which was translated as "roaming"; Led Zeppelin's "The Song Remains The Same" as "the song is the same one" and "D'yer make'r" as "the dyer"; or Rick Wakeman's "Guinevere" changed to "the lady of the lake", which was not a mistranslation but the stupid decision of using the name of the song prior to it in his album "Myth And Legends Of King Arthur And The Knights Of The Roundtable" just because they either could not find a translation of just did not like it (actually, the equivalent in Spanish exists). At this very moment I cannot recall more examples but I am bloody well sure there are lots. Anyone else? Raul F. Rueda Lima - Peru ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:39:19 +0100 From: bart at unheard-of dot com Subject: Re: Notes without rest...! Ryan D Tassone wrote >Anybody can play straight, jazzless, eigth-note arpeggios with >another person, slightly out of time, and make it sound somewhat like 80's >Crim. Don't jump down my throat; I didn't say anybody WOULD...that's what >makes King Crimson special. Hell, I can achieve much the same effect with >a rhythmic delay effect on my guitar, but if I'd never heard of Robert >Fripp, I probably would have thought such a musical concept was silly. But >the very fact that the same tension-and-release element of such phrasing is >always perfectly captured, complimented, or counterbalanced by Bill's style >makes me wonder why Robert decided to continue without him. I think you're right asking the last question. I guess both musician did develop their styles together. A lot of synergism here .... Surely, i do not agree that you could achieve much of the same effect just using a rhythmic delay effect. On first sight (or 'hear' in this case) maybe, but I'm confident that using a simple mechanical delay does not keep someone attracted to a composition on a level that most of the KC work does. Well, at least for me. The mechanical delay trick, as used so often in dance-like music styles, just wares of after hearing it a few times, for me after a time or two. The KC (or Fripp in general) compositions make you wonder what happens, and only after hearing it a few times you 'dig' it, and begin to like it. In this way they are completely the opposite of each other. For that, it's like most good classical music; it takes some individual investment to be able to value it for what it is. Mechanical delays are just 'pseudo counter melodies', which may work in live performances or in studio music only intended to be played in live-like situations and be listened to not more than a few times, e.g. dance stuff. Delays only work (at least for me a bit) in case they are in time, i.e. when they have the same or multiples or straight divisions of the played bpm. Otherwise they will result in complete and utter chaos. The interactions between the musicians in KC are on a completely different level. Counter melodies, starting in time, going out of time, catching up a while later, and so forth. GREAT :-) Like the last words of the lyrics of indiscipline: 'I LIKE IT', which is completely to the point here. Indiscipline (maybe you could call this form of playing not disciplined) is not equal to chaos. Maybe 'a human controlled chaos-like effect with a lot of induced feeling' ..... :-) I'm not trying to jump at your throat here, just dropping in my 2 cts ... Kind regards, Bart. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:48:27 -0800 (PST) From: Timothy Andrew Edwards Subject: violation Happy Holidaze! I have always understood RF not wanting to be photographed, etc. but recently I believe I finally "got it". My wife and I were alone - which is rare (kids at home with in-laws) doing some Christmas shopping at a Los Angeles Toys-R-Us (huge toystore chain in the US). We were trying to choose some things that our boys would really like and were sharing a nice time. We were smiling and joking when I noticed another shopper being interviewed down the aisle from us. I thought that maybe they were shooting a commercial so we just ignored them and went about our business. About 3 minutes later, we realized that we were being followed and taped (not just video, but our conversation as well)! We were then "asked" (finally) if we would like to be interviewed for a nationwide "news" television show. It felt strange and I have to admit I was ticked because we were being taped and our conversation recorded. I could just imagine my kids saying, "We saw you buy this on TV - I thought you said Santa brought it?!". So, there I was - not performing, but in a private moment and BANG! Up yours! Smile! ! We declined. And I cannot imagine going through life like that, especially trying to perform "in the moment". Possibly like a stranger with a video camera taping your wife giving birth simply because they were in the same hospital and wanted to relive a beautiful moment (via a tape). ARGH! GO.com Mail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 20:23:12 -0000 From: Michael Hackett Subject: Re: Ownership issue Warren Melnick asked: >(1) If I own a CD, may rip it to MP3 or WMA to listen to personally on my >MP3 player? > >(2) May I download said MP3 or WMA files for my own use if again I own the >CD? > >(3) If I were to digitally capture the sound from an LP or tape that I >legitimately own and burn my own CD, that I am within my rights to do so? >If so, does that then allow me to rip or download MP3/WMA files of it? The answers to all of the above are "yes", provided there is only one copy in use at any time. And even that restriction may no longer apply. Used to be that, legally, you could not make a tape (or MP3 now) of a recording to carry around with you if your spouse or roommate was at home playing the original at the same time, for example. But I think that recent Home Recording legislation made it okay to do what everyone had been doing anyway, and eliminated an uneforceable policy. So I'd say you should be safe on any of the above. >Which is leading up the question 4: >(4) Does this then entitle me to download MP3s of Exposure from Napster so >that I may listen to it on my MP3 player instead of having to pull the >vinyl, clear all the DATs off of my turntable's cover, and put the vinyl on >to listen to this album? This I'm not sure about. If, for example, the MP3s were ripped from a CD copy (most likely), that's not really the same as the LP you own. I mean, it's probably not legal to make a copy of your friend's remastered CD just because you have an old version, even though the music might be the same. Anyone know about this? (As an aside, it actually is now legal in Canada to copy any music for your own personal use, even if you don't own a copy, thanks to an ill-conceived copyright law amendment which also imposes a levy on all blank media, even CD-Rs used for legitimate computer-related purposes.) -- Michael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 04:57:26 -0000 From: "Cameron Devlin" Subject: Re: Crimson Odditties & "Photo Sets" >>No, what I'm refering to are pecularities such >>as the double trio + special guest Greg Lake performing 'Cat Food' >>circa >>95... Er.. did that ever actually happen? I ask because everything else you mentioned has, so where did this one come from? If this is true (and even if it isn't, my point still makes sense anyway), then I think it's about time Fripp made up his mind about where King Crimson is going. One minute they aren't playing anything from before Double Trio Crimson, then they throw in all the 80s classics + Red and become the Greatest Hits touring package all over again. And now I find that during the double trio days they got GREG LAKE back in randomly for 1 song?????? Is it me, or has Crimson become a little bit of a farce recently? Never able to decide it's own future. So I was thinking (as if anyone actually cared) that maybe it would be best to just stop calling the band King Crimson. If even Fripp (who I'm almost sure doesn't really have any desire to start playing nostalgia material) is succumbing to temptation time and time again, perhaps just call it ProjeKct X, K, C or any similar non-numerical character. The setlists could stay almost the same (if the band really wants to play a classic or two, then obviously by all means play them), but just without any of the shit that comes with calling yourselves King Crimson (like the expectation of Schizoid Man or Larks II from someone who saw the name on a poster and remembered it from the 70s). I'm pretty sure it wouldn't change the audience of Crimson, considering the majority is internet based (who would have heard of ProjeKct One or Two had we not been online?). A rose by any other name smells as sweet. Of course, to argue with myself, there's something special about the band when it's called King Crimson. It just feels like music (and "Crimson King!" is still one of the most wonderful audience hollors ever created.. who else feels chills run up their spine when that guy shouts it at the beginning of B'Boom?) And in response to the guy who suggested a "photo set" (I can't find the post on the last issue of ET anymore for some reason)... The League of Crafty Guitarists did a photo shoot during concerts. They would make deals with the audience and press that if no pics were taken during the concert, they would do one final piece at the end where flash photography was allowed. This would give the photographers better quality pics and allow the musicians to get through their set without interruption. I'm surprised Crimson never used this, as it seemed to have worked. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 00:34:04 EST From: OTotor0 at aol dot com Subject: Exposure/vinyl/Napster(uggh) Warren wrote: >(4) Does this then entitle me to download MP3s of Exposure from Napster so >that I may listen to it on my MP3 player instead of having to pull the >vinyl, clear all the DATs off of my turntable's cover, and put the vinyl on >to listen to this album? Find a spot for those DATs. Neither CD issue (original or "Definitive Edition") is nearly as good as the original vinyl issue. Break out the vinyl, read the sneaky run-off groove notes, and enjoy a killer album the way it was meant to be heard. I'd think there's no problem if you mp3 your copy as long as you don't redistribute it. But really- why listen to a cruddy digital copy when you can sit and watch a record spin around for a while? -thom soriano purist/dope. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:01:44 +0200 From: masse at geocean dot u-bordeaux dot fr (Laurent MASSE) Subject: Heavy C improv titles >1. Sapir (Paris) In one of his latest diary entries, Pat Calls it "Sirap". ???? >2. Blastic Rhino (?) Pat frequently referred to a "Blastic Rhino pocket" in his europe tour diary entries. >7. Beatiful [or is it Beautiful as it is written in the release >page?]Rainbow (is it because Adrain says "Beautiful evening"?) I distinctly hear "Beautiful Rainbow" somewhere in the middle of the track >8. 7 Teas (?) Seven Teas (pts II and III) were Pat's working titles for Masque 5 and 8. Same rhythm loop indeed, and it's in 7. More to understand?? ___ Laurent Masse ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:10:58 +0200 From: masse at geocean dot u-bordeaux dot fr (Laurent MASSE) Subject: Re: Thrush and other things >IMO). Or how about an entire studio album made up of ProjeKct material with >no vocals at all. (Nothing against Ade or anything). Isn't this exactly what "Deception Of The Thrush - A Beginner's Guide to ProjeKcts" is all about??? Apart from minor crowd noises, it sounds like studio, and I don't think they would improve it. I agree though that a definitive version of Seizure is lacking. >Japanese CD (that's what I did). Sailor's Tale was edited for Earthbound >whereas for the club release Fripp went back to the original master tape, >achieving a better sound than he'd have had he used the edit. This happened >with Providence, which sounds better on The Great Deceiver box set (original >master) than in the 24 bit remaster of Red (edited). Sailor's tale on the japanese Jacksonville actually misses over 4mn of the drum solo. The regular CC version is over 14 mn. Providence on TGD is in fact remixed, thus the difference in sound. But I prefer the Red version. A question of taste... > Regarding USA, I think a double CD with basically the same thing >repeated twice would be too much. Especially as TGD already repeats it twice if not more... >I noticed that KCCC #14 has the same sound rating as KCCC #11 (Bath - 81). >Having never listened to #11 and knowing there was some strong comments >regarding #11's sound quality, I am hesitant to obtain #14. Could some >people shed some light on what they found dislikable with #11's sound? I was one of the few who were quite satisfied with #11. The job in restoring the low end is terrific IMO. I find the sound of Moles Club to be FAR MORE SATISFYING than Marquee, and (to my ears) comparable with Jacksonville and Central Park. >>And another thing: Why DGM does not have the Collectors Club sampler >>available though retail stores? So far its only available and accessible >>for those who are already in the Club or folks who buy from DGM directly. The CC sampler was originally released to be available at shows, aimed at general concert-goers not in the know. Especially in Europe, where internet penetration among the listening community is very low. But it would be irrelevant in stores. > For another thing, have you noticed the sampler is just $10? I can't >remember the last time I saw any CD sold on the public market for less than The two regular DGM samplers are even cheaper. ___ Laurent Masse ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 07:26:35 -0800 (PST) From: Kazuhiko Saiga Subject: mistranslation - 2 re- my ET 791 post "mistranslation" These translation made by Japanese record/movie company, not by me. and another funny example, Lark's Tongues in Aspic translate to "Sun and Shivering" as Japanses KC record title. In the wake of Poseidon to "Poseidon's awakening" Kaz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:27:01 From: "Jon Benfield" Subject: Talk: Women and KC I knew a girl about 10 years ago that owned "The Compact KC" on LP, but she had never seen the band. I showed her the "Frejes" and "Tokyo" videos and her comment was "Wow, they're much cleaner than I imagined"...hilarious. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #793 ********************************