Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #789 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 789 Friday, 15 December 2000 Today's Topics: Earthbound Discipline Era Gear??? Fw: Heavy ConstrucKtion Re: TCOL tab + do YOU play KC? Crimson, Fripp, DGM and the Music Biz Rock & Roll Audiences PLEASE VOTE FOR KC No, not the boogie. Hotmail! Re: Sex and King Crimson..... New Remasters Re: One degree - Fripp to Doors Lions and Tigers and Mystery Guitars, oh MY! Deeper meanings The woman of my dreams Re: Fw;Sorry Betrayed by BootlegTV ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 10:30:33 -0500 From: Geordie Robertson Subject: Earthbound While listening to my copy of "Earthbound" the other day I couldn't get over how different this album is from other KC releases before and after (especially the poor production values, something I think would have been unacceptable to Mr. Fripp). Was this an "official" KC release, a record company cash grab, or something in between? Does anyone know the story? Feel free to e-mail me direct if you like. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 13:24:46 -0500 From: "Dave Read" Subject: Discipline Era Gear??? Who out there can help me figure out what gear KC was using during the Discipline era? I'm particularly interested in Adrian's set-up, especially effects. I know they were using Roland Jazz Chorus amps, and (at least) Fripp was using an early Roland guitar synth & controller. So c'mon gearheads, let's see those replies!! Dave ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 20:55:34 +0100 From: "Fam. van Leeuwen" Subject: Fw: Heavy ConstrucKtion Just for my own personal King Crimson hobby administration I would like to have a few details cleared up.It's about the tracks and correct dates and venues. FraKctured: May 27 Copenhagen and June 6 Bonn Blastic Rhino: June 6 Bonn,June 21 Gardone,June 29 Madrid ccccSeizurecc: June 3 Stuttgart, June 4 Muenchen, June 9 Poznan 7 Teas: May 27 - 28 Copenhagen, June 4 Muenchen Tomorrow Never Knows Thela: June 10 - 11 Warsaw,June 13 Prague Uboo: June 29 Madrid,July 3 London The Deception of the Thrush: May 31 Berin,June 23 Rome,June 25 Paris,June 28 San Sebastian Now, were very clever combination mixes made (Thrush: 4 dates!) and do I just have to have my ears checked or are there several printing mistakes? Also: Lights and Light Please...Poznan, Warsaw or Prague? Any insiders out there who would know??? Thank you. Jos ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 20:30:25 -0300 From: "jose poggio" Subject: Heavy ConstrucKtion Marcus Enochsson asked in ET#785: Out of curiousity, and while speaking of playing KC tunes, what other bands that play such are subscribed to ET? And what songs do you play? Well, I have a band called IDUS and made covers of Red, Tela...., & Dinosaur from KC and a cover Anekdoten's (sweedish KC influenced ) song From Within, and a cover of Book of Hours (sweedish KC, VDGG and P. Hammill influenced band too) song called Infertile ground. Then we play a music that is between P. hammill, Neil Young & Crazy Horse and KC, which are our main influences. We have done a version of The void by NIN that is very crimsonic BTW, in the style of Projekct III, much more dense, faster and percussive than NINs original. I sing, write lyrics, play ocassional acoustic guitar and some percussions. We have played live in pubs, but not played any KC live yet (a real chalenge BTW). cheers, jose ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 19:54:38 -0800 (PST) From: Martin Bailey Subject: Re: TCOL tab + do YOU play KC? First off I'd like to say that I am a refugee from retail. I used to work in the music retail business and it was fun...for a while. I'm really upset about the greediness of the major labels. For instance, when Universal and Polygram merged, all front line jazz and classical cds went up from a $15.99 list to a $17.99 list. I find it ridiculous to pay that much for a 50 year old recording from Ella Fitzgerald. At the same time I don't see any reason why any Led Zeppelin recording should sell at $17.99 or higher. These recording are over 20 years old and the album/CD length is about 40 minutes. Where is the money going? I hardly doubt that the artists are getting the extra money. A couple of years ago I met guitarist Eliot Fisk and him if he earned much money from his recordings. He laughed and said that he doesn't earn anything from the recordings. He records to promote himself so he can book concerts. Apparently that is where he makes (some) money. Another reason I became disenchanted with the music business is that I was disappointed watching the majors releasing good records and then abandoning them by not providing any support. Sony Music is real bad about this, but the worst performer is Virgin/EMI. They have along history of releasing wonderful records and yet they fuck up the marketing and promotion. Let's look at TCOL and how Virgin fucked up here. I knew a couple of people who worked for Caroline (which is the indie line for Virgin/EMI) and they told me that there was a strong possibility that TCOL would be released through Caroline instead of EMI Distribution. The reason they told me this is that Virgin (America) heard the new record and hated it. They were at a loss as far as promoting it because they thought it had no commercial potential, read: NO HIT SINGLES. They rejected it and were going to send it to Caroline to market, promote and distribute. At first I thought that was going to be the best method anyway since the bulk of the Crimson catalog is marked through Caroline anyway, so they can tie it in easily. Then several weeks later, I'm flipping through a EMI release book and there was a page ad in there for TCOL. Virgin was going to put this out through EMI after all. What worried me when I saw this was the description of this album. They were trying to sell this to the techno/rave fans out there because of the TCOL's electronically rooted sound. Well, that audience didn't buy it, and many long time Crimson fans didn't buy it because it wasn't marketed nor promoted to the Crimson fan base. Somebody ought to tell the technical writing dweebs hired by Virgin the differences of "electric" music and "electronica." Now the chart performance. On the same day TOCL was released, Virgin also issued A Perfect Circle. I saw ads placed in music industry rags for a Perfect Circle but nothing about TCOL. The result was shown in Billboard Magazine. A Perfect Circle debuts at #1. TCOL didn't chart. Here's something I question: Since the birth of DGM I followed Fripp's writings about the legal wranglings he has had with EG/Virgin/EMI. One result of this is the new remasters that care coming out with copyright ownership now belonging to Robert Fripp and liscenced to Virgin. I find it interesting that since he started DGM, he chose Rykodisc as his distributing company, not Virgin/EMI/Caroline. I'm aware that The Great Deceiver box had reverted from Virgin to DGM. I'm confused as to why Cirkus and TCOL went to Virgin instead of solely being released by DGM. Is Fripp bound to take every King Crimson record to Virgin first before he can release it on DGM? And another thing: Why DGM does not have the Collectors Club sampler available though retail stores? So far its only available and accessible for those who are already in the Club or folks who buy from DGM directly. HELLO???!!!! Are the folks at DGM starting to behave as stupidly as the majors? If that is the case, the end is near for DGM. Comments anyone? Martin thrakmail at yahoo dot com "PLAY CAT FOOD!" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 22:55:24 EST From: JEF520 at aol dot com Subject: Crimson, Fripp, DGM and the Music Biz Greetings: There have been many posts recently concerning Robert Fripp's relationship with his audience. Most are supportive and routinely demonize the "geek with the flash". Many seem to excuse the preformer for "punishing" the entire audience because of a perceived transgression by an individual. Others have criticized the performer for "throwing tantrums". One thing I haven't seen is an attempt to look at the issue within the context of the entire Rock Music genera. One of the prime tennents of what I would call the Rock lifestyle has always been a strong suspicion - if not total disregard for authority. This is why things like political activism and the use illegal drugs - things which are generally frowned upon by our society's "authority figures" - are so common among those who listen to a lot of rock music. The attitude often seems to be: "Just because some stuffy old parent/politician/teacher/police man says something is wrong, it doesn't mean I don't have a right to do it." This disregard for authority and social convention can, in the mind of the inarticulate, lead to stupid and rude behavior at the most inappropriate times. On the other hand, in the mind of the inspired, it can open the door to much creativity. If one remembers what rock/pop music was like before the mid 1960's, you will recall monstrous amounts banal crap being foisted on the record-buying public by corporate stooges - much like what main-stream rock/pop music has become today! Somewhere along the way, a few folks with electric guitars and little, if any formal musical training changed that. I believe that this was in large part due to a "DIY" attitude that refused to acknowledge that there was no place in the recording industry - let alone society as a whole - for their "different" music (much of which was based on that sensual, and socially unacceptable Black music called The Blues). Without a bunch of young punks who thought they knew better and could do what they thought best, it is likely that the rock genera would never have produced such stunningly creative bands as KC, and perhaps Mr. Fripp would have lived out his life as a somewhat eccentric accountant. Which leads us to rock concert audiences..... Most, if not all who attend rock concerts have grown up with the rebelliousness of the "rock lifestyle". Though they may now be accountants by day, they still feel that they are justified in smoking dope at a concert, or perhaps taking a picture of the preformer even though (and maybe just because) someone has told them not to. Do we really want uniformly well behaved crowds of attentive audients, though? Would this be healthy for the dynamics and potential creativity of the genera? Assuming that most here have attended a classical music concert at one time or another, I would point out that audiences at such concerts are very well behaved - they don't smoke dope, set off flash cameras, or shreek requests for songs the preformers haven't done in 20 years. As a dynamic, creative musical style however, classical music is highly moribund, if not down right deceased! Creativity needs a bit of chaos. We need to feel a bit uncomfortable sometimes to be shaken out of complacency. If we try too hard to force a set of "acceptable behavior" values on the rock community, them we may not have to put up the the stoned crettins at concerts any more, but I'm afraid we will eliminate the possibility of creativity from the genera as well. I've been enjoying KC shows since I first saw them on the Islands tour in early 1971, and they have been quite an inspiration in my own attempts to be creative. I hope to be able to continue attending their shows and purchasing their music for many years to come. But I think Mr. Fripp's attempts to control audience behavior will untimately prove futile, and possibly even counter productive. The universe (and rock audiences) are not, and hopefully never will be perfectly behaved. I hope he can come to terms with this and concentrate on what he does best - playing the guitar, instead of wasting energy trying to control the behavior of a few miscreants. Cheers, Jesse Fisher ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 08:00:41 +0100 From: "Dhr. Steyns" Subject: Rock & Roll Audiences At this time The constukction of light peaks only at number 10 in the poll for the best album of 2000 from Paperlate Rock Radio Holland. Please vote before saturday on KC on the Paperlate website www.paperlate.net Yes, Uriah Heep and Camel are all ahead of KC. KC needs about 150 votes to become no 1! Andre Steijns Paperlate Rock Radio crimsonfan at paperlate dot net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 10:48:40 +0100 From: "Marcus Enochsson" Subject: PLEASE VOTE FOR KC Yes, I happen to think that Hotmail may be to blame for me actually not recieving ET digest # 785 (you know, the one containing six degrees, KCCC #19 and discussions of Fripp's behaviour...) (Oh, that goes for ALL digests the last two weeks???). Hotmail seems to have had web-technical difficulties the latest week (often unable to log in and extreeeemely slow), and as I haven't recieved ET # 785 I want to say that there's a risk that more Hotmail based ETers have missed a digest. The lack of awareness of the contents of the mentioned digest even made me think I had the right to reply to a six degrees thread. One should know that consumer right aren't valid anywhere close to the letters "F", "R", "I", "P" and "P". I s'pose Toby cut the post out - good job!! And another thing, Re: KC 2000+. I can't let go of the vision I got in this morning's shower. Why don't KC try a different approach. Hey, that Freep always talk about movin' anyway, duuudes. They should release a worldwide best of/greatest hits on Virgin, professionally marketed everywhere in radio, TV, papers, and... media! They could call it "We are the Crimsons", "This is King Crimson" or possibly "The young persons next guide to King Crimson - including several more move-ons since last guide". Also, Hom... DOH!, I mean ROBERT Crimson should star in a Bond movie or front a resurrected glam rock band, Bar..., sorry, I mean ADE Crimson and Lis..., sorry, I mean TREY Crimson should learn some synched dance steps and cool 'n hip movements to use to enhance Oyster Soup, and Mar.., sorry, I mean PAT Crimson should lip synch to Abba covers and wear blue/grey futuristic space-like clothes. That way they could SELL, man!!! But perhaps that will remain the dream that it is. And I s'pose most dreams are better left that way. After all, no matter how great this idea sounds, I'm sure it wouldn't come out as great as it is in my mind. With sighs caused by this world's current commercial culture, The Marketer-to-be Marcus Enochsson http://www.mp3.com/zealous ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 14:46:19 +0000 From: Nick Loebner Subject: No, not the boogie. Hotmail! Josette484 at aol dot com said: > There are not many ladies posting here I see...Well, from a female point of > view it should be pointed out(ENUOGH of the intellectual gibberish already!) > that all of the muscians in KC are VERY sexy and appealing in one way or > another..... [snip] > ...and Trey is > definately the "Boy Toy" in the band...all the girls agree he is "hot". > Any other ladies here care to comment? Or gay men! - Nick. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 08:20:02 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Miklos Subject: Re: Sex and King Crimson..... Hi all Having recently bought LTIA,SABB and Red remasters I can say I am again very satisfied. The only missing detail are the SABB lyrics. My vinyl LP and old CD have them, but the remaster doesn't. On the other hand, Red came with lyrics. What about Earthbound and USA? Hope DGM can also release them in any form. Ronald Vogel (Brazil) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 14:24:01 -0500 From: Steve Smith Subject: New Remasters > From: "Gordon Griffith" > Subject: One degree - Fripp to Doors > > Fripp to Doors - > > 1 step > > Fripp - Wetton King Crimson > Wetton -Manzurek Duet album. > > The Wetton - Manzurek album is reaaalllllyyyy bad. Avoid it. I don't think it actually exists. I believe you're thinking of the Wetton-Manzanera album (as in Phil Manzanera, of Roxy Music). Judging from your opinion, I'd guess that you're *definitely* thinking of Wetton/Manzanera. But I'm sure a Wetton-Manzurek disc would be far worse. I never had any use for "Jim Morris an his doors," anyway... (inside joke, that). Anyway, I ready to be pounced upon if this is another Wetton stinker of which I'm unaware... and NO I'm not a Wetton basher, far from it... (Thanks for curtailing a thread that was quickly growing very tedious, Toby.) Steve Smith ssmith36 at sprynet dot com NP - Cuong Vu, "pitter-patter," 'Pure' (Knitting Factory) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 14:17:21 -0500 From: "Gregory Ulbrich" Subject: Re: One degree - Fripp to Doors Would someone be so kind as to help identify the luthier (or company) responsible for the rather ornate Les Paul-style guitar RF is seen using on the dejaV'ROOM DVD? And of course, immediate and sincere apologies if I'm accidently re-opening a long-buried thread. Thanks! To: Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 18:58:56 -0000 From: "Nicholas Cox" Subject: Lions and Tigers and Mystery Guitars, oh MY! MIME-Version: 1.0 ...actually I'm not too bothered about snow -but KCCC 12 would be a real = treat. Nick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 21:09:25 +0100 From: bart at unheard-of dot com Subject: Deeper meanings Instead of deliberating about six degrees stuff (or less or more) or whatever .... What about the deeper meaning of the following lyrics: All completeness in the morning Asleep on your side I'll be waking up the crewmen Banana-boat ride She responds like a limousine Brought alive on the silent screen To the shuddering breath of yesterday ... Anyone anyclue? Bart. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 16:23:30 -0500 From: Mark Rehder Subject: The woman of my dreams So, I've been seeing this wonderful woman for a month now. She's over one evening, and tells me she loves Peter Gabriel's "Passion" CD. So we're talking about it, and I mentioned Crimson. She hadn't heard the name, so I decided it was time for the Live In Japan video. We didn't watch the whole thing, but I eased her into it with One Time. She liked that, and then Red came right after, and she thought that was cool (and she generally doesn't like heavy music--more of a folkie). I then forwarded to B'Boom and Thrak. I deliberately did not cuddle with her on the couch, as I didn't want to distract her. She watched that whole thing. incl. the improv section (which I have dubbed, ala Spike Jones, "Dinner Music For People Who Aren't Very Hungry"). When it was over, I looked at her, and she had this amazed look on her face. She said "that was incredible!" and then described the various emotions and vibes she got from the different sections of music. She said she wants to hear/see more, and would definitely go a to live show, just for the experience. It's amazing enough that she wants to be with this silly old drummer, but the fact that she likes KC is quite the bonus! Needless to say, I think I'm in love... ;o) Cheers, Mark -- +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race." -- H.G. Wells Come and visit my Webpages at: http://home.istar.ca/~marker/ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 21:42:55 -0400 From: Manuel Fernandez Subject: Re: Fw;Sorry Markus Gnad wrote: > >Hello Manuel, >I think I have to take back what I have said and say SORRY. >Several ETers have made me aware of what mistake I obviously made. > >Forgive me Manuel, I have mistaken the term "knockout babes" for something >on the base of "used babes", believing that you referred to Toyah's dying >musical success at the end of the 80's. That's why I wrote the recent ET >post. > >Now some guys told me that things are not like that (and that I should >improve my English...) > >Hope you forgive me. NO! It's too late! You have disgraced the list, now hand over all your KC records and anything related by at least six degrees of separation to KC to the webmaster and prepare for a dishonorable discharge! Just kidding, Markus. No problem. Manuel. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 22:27:49 -0500 From: Warren Melnick Subject: Betrayed by BootlegTV So what happened? We were promised the shows in a timely manner. We were promised a subscription to watch the shows on the tour. We were promised CDs. We were promised a box set. What did we get? Nothing. A 3CD set was released to the general buying public offered also for sale through DGM. The warmup shows and a few video clips were available via streaming and not even downloadable to the average user. Does anyone else feel let down? RF: How exactly is this strategy supposed to stop the tapers? DS: Is this your great new philosophy? Personally I am glad I was able to download the 4 Nashville shows and the video clips, and that a few kind souls have made available to me CDs of shows taped in the US. Warren Melnick ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #789 ********************************