Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #788 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 788 Friday, 15 December 2000 Today's Topics: Crimson Influence On Sabbath, Metallica big band billy The talented musicians of Crimson How To Behave In Life... Move on or protest? "Lyrics" to Deception of Thrush? Follow-up to "Drummer looking for KC - like band in SF Bay area" mellotron Al Anderson in ET? Bands covering crimson Who is "Prolific Joe"? Hyde Park brouhaha Re: Nashville CD - track 19 problems Gold ponycanyon remasters Sakamoto Again / Song Titles Buddy Rich ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 19:17:33 -0800 (PST) From: s s Subject: Crimson Influence On Sabbath, Metallica Heavy Construkction is great! What a bargain- 3 Cds AND a whole live video! Did anyone ever notice similarities between King Crimson's 21 Century Schizoid Man (1969) and Black Sabbath's Iron Man (1970 or later), both in the main riffs and subject matter (Iron Man... Schizoid Man...)? Also, the main riff in Metallica's "Call of Kthulu" is almost identical to the main riff of "In the Court Of the Crimson King." Hmm... Cheers, Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:44:05 EST From: Doynuy at aol dot com Subject: big band billy hi there, ever wonder how bill bruford might approach big band music? listen to BURNING FOR BUDDY, VOLUMES 1 AND 2. not only will you hear bill in action, but you'll get to hear a great band perform with a number of well known drummers (e.g., simon phillips, joe morello, max roach, steve gadd, steve smith, billy cobham, marvin "smitty" smith, etc...). highly recommended - espescially vol.1. christmas cheers! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 01:04:44 -0500 (EST) From: Darryl Subject: The talented musicians of Crimson Hi Ele-folk, I agree with Kathy Ottersten's view in ET#785 that the whole "six degrees" just shows how talented and wanted(as session musicians) the members of KC(past or present) really are. Is there any other band who has members who can be traced to almost anyone in the entertainment industry? At the top of my head I can only think of Pink Floyd's David Gilmour, who has appeared on a zillion albums by differet artists. Darryl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:12:53 +0100 From: Gnad Markus Subject: How To Behave In Life... This may be more a bunch of questions than a statement re How To Behave At Shows. On my recently visited Elton John concert (which was WOW! BANG!! FANTASTIC! Three hours of EJ and his piano!!! - Vienna Stadthalle) I was getting a bit desperated. From my seat at the right side I could see the Master very clearly, and hear his music perfectly. Yet: Some really stupid and definitely dull concert goers made a big part of the show becoming hell. I ask this to you: If a concert is announced to start at 19.30, can we assume that it will definitely be 19.30, or that at least there is a chance that it will be 19.30? OK. Then why do so many people enter the arena precisely at 19.30 and LATER ON? Sir EJ started playing exactly at 19.30, ignoring the hundreds who were searching their seats with small lights. By 20.30 everyone had found their place. I would have not been surprised if Sir Elton would have stood up and left. I mean, he came precisely, why don't the others do. If there are 20.000 people attending a concert, it is recommended that you enter the hall before 19.30. It was a major destruction of this precious event (note: only voice + piano, small lights). Again, I was desperate and really spit on that people. Thank God Sir Elton John did ignore those many, probably thinking: Well, it's their bad luck if they miss half of the performance. He played without interruptions, and went straight ahead. Second question: Is it really thoughtful to - imagine that - do the following: At a small break of ... 7 seconds... in a seated hall... get up, run towards the stage and hold up your cd high so the musician may sign it while he is waving his hands to the audience saying Thank You? The whole thing was not only embarassing (for that guy) but also funny: 20.000 people sitting and applausing, one guy jumping to the front and when he reaches it Sir EJ turns away and sits down at his piano, leaving the guy with his raised CD alone in front of the whole audience. Still... this event was probably the greatest concert I have ever seen. Long live Elton. Second event: The The concert in Linz. Leave alone the fact that The The didn't sound good to me and that I left after an hour. Again, some questions came up to me small-minded guy: If the stage lights consist of one small lamp above the microphone, and therefore is held extremely dark, is it then very thoughtful to a) take hundreds (I am honest) flash photos? b) open the door every 3 minutes because you organize a beer, go piss or come and go, and so let the light flood in? (Here I am sorry... I also left and had to open the door, therefore). Again, these are actually questions which answer themselves. Good and appropriate behaviour under these circumstances doesn't need to be extra-announced. The same goes for Crimson. You don't have to post signs saying No Photos, No Recording (well for the No Smoking, OK). Can't we just assume that everybody KNOWS that? And if someone who takes this for very serious, namely Robert Fripp, reacts on this, well, BE IT SO. Some people's dullness should not be his problem, or cause him to think about how to avoid that at all. It eventually leads to this... If it's a dark night and it's raining, and I drive not THAT fast because I can't see THAT much, is it thoughtful to speed up to my ass and overtake me in a curve? Many people don't know how to behave - and it's THEIR fault, and it's not a task for those who know how to behave to tell them how to improve. No internet and no education needed. Markus Fripp-Clone, eventually ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:47:37 -0500 From: Randall dot Hammill at hartfordlife dot com Subject: Move on or protest? Goran Janicijevic asked, "Randall, if you didn't like the new material, would you move on, or would you protest?" **** As Robert might say: The short answer is I would move on. The long answer is there certainly is no problem writing a critique of an album, show, etc. but to try to tell the artists that their "vision" is wrong or should be changed is where I draw the line. For example, I really liked Kansas up to about the early 80's. When Steve Morse joined I checked out a couple of albums, and didn't particularly like them, even though I like Steve Morse and I like Kansas. So I moved on, by not buying new albums. When I heard that they were touring with Yes, and that they were releasing a new album with the original band (more or less) I decided to check it out. I looked at some reviews, checked out their website to see what the band members thought and listened to a few previews. I liked what I heard so I bought the CD. It wasn't really what I thought it was going to be, but it has a couple of tracks that I like. In concert I was very impressed, and the newer songs they played live were much more convincing than the CD. But it's not enough to make me go searching for their next CD, although I might go to see them live if I hear about a show. I wouldn't hunt out all the info on upcoming shows and make sure I will be there like I do for Crim related stuff. So, in this example, the music that Kansas was releasing in the 80's and 90's did not speak to me, so I moved on. I would gladly share my thoughts about the music - but that does not allow me to personally attack the artist. I still listen to their older stuff occasionally, but not as much as I used to because I changed. The music that excited me when I was younger doesn't have the same effect on me today. Most of the time I listen to what I listened to then is enjoyable because of the memories it brings along. I like the new Crim and related music because it gives me the same thrill of new music that Discipline did when I first heard it. Now when I listen to say, Gates of Delirium by Yes, I remember a corner in my basement that my friend and I set up to play D&D and paint. If I hear Electric Light Orchestra's Discovery I remember working on my model railroad as a kid. When I hear Discipline I feel like I did when I was a junior in high school. Music is a very powerful force psychologically, and feelings, emotions, even visual pictures of exact times and places can be triggered by music. So enjoy the old music, and check out the new music. If you don't like the new music, then you don't have to listen to it. You may find that down the road you like it, you may not. But I am going to go out on a limb and guess that everybody whose favorite band is King Crimson now had another band that was their favorite before they heard King Crimson. Maybe there is another band out there that fits your ideal band description. The example with Kansas is just one of many - I sold off a record collection of around 10,000 albums a few years ago. I have maybe a couple thousand CDs now. The CDs I have purchased since selling my collection are different than what I had on LP. Quite a few of the CDs I don't listen to very often. Because I have changed, and I have moved on. Or perhaps the bands changed, I did not, but I still moved on. I don't see any point in protesting. Respectfully voicing your opinion is different. **** I have trouble listening to ThrakAttack; there is so much going on, relentlessly for an entire CD. There is very little familiar music to grasp - - no concrete melody, rhythm or tonal center. I was really looking forward to this CD because I really enjoy the improvs of current and past Crims, but I really have to be in the right mood to get into this. With repeated listening I may be able to understand and enjoy it more (Like Lizard - I love that now, though it was tough to follow originally). If you are looking for free-form experimental music, then this is the CD for you. However, if you want something improvisational, yet more easily digestible try the Great Deceiver Box, Project X or heavy ConstruKction. vs. ThrakAttack sucks! They just noodle around without playing anything. Robert doesn't even play guitar, he just does wierd sounds and piano and stuff (and he played in the dark when I saw him - the jerk). They should be playing stuff like Schizoid Man and Frakctured, not this junk. Did they forget how to play their instruments? What does Trey do? He sucks too. Bring back Wetton. **** The first helps me make an informed decision to see if I want to check out the CD. The second just tells me that I don't think I would like the reviewer very much (although I might like the CD, since he seems to pretty much hate it - If I don't like him I won't like what he likes). If you like the old stuff, listen to the old stuff. They don't want to play old stuff, but they did write some new stuff that resembles the old stuff. If that doesn't work for you, then wait and see what happens next. Or don't and check out some of the other bands out there. If you like Bruford and Levin, then lets see if we can get another round of Bruford Levin Upper Extremities, or some other band that only they can come up with. Things will change. Pat's using a combination of electronic and acoustic percussion again (it really didn't make a difference to me, but I'm not a drummer). My guess is that Pat wanting to use them, plus technical problems with an all-electronic set - not because people complained, although there might be some correlation. I think it's great that there is the opportunity to offer our opinions to the band. But with any open forum comes responsibility. If Robert (or whomever) has to wade through a bunch of crap to get to the useful information from the fans, then they may just stop. Then there's no point. In fact, Robert has, in direct relation to the "dopiness" of the posts, stopped posting directly to ET. He also temporarily removed the Guestbook at DGM, then reinstated it with some restrictions. It has been some time since he has responded directly to any of the entries there as well. So if you don't like something, no problem. Let them know. But let's use some courtesy and respect for the people that we say we like. I can't really say that I am a friend of any of the Crim family, but I see no reason why I shouldn't treat them like one. Randy Hammill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:45:15 -0500 From: Noah Green Subject: "Lyrics" to Deception of Thrush? What exactly is that robotic voice saying in the piece? Yes, I know it's not: "By your command." (sorry . . . ) Also, any idea who in the band is talking? I saw it live twice and it didn't seem like anyone was. Finally, am I the only one who finds the voice a little creepy? Thanks, Noah ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:17:50 -0600 From: nic dot roozeboom at philips dot com Subject: Follow-up to "Drummer looking for KC - like band in SF Bay area" Dear ET-ers, Adrian Cockroft's posting in ET#776 on Nov 29th inviting musicians in the SF Bay Area has succeeded in so far bringing together the beginnings of a band, comprising one (V-)drummer, one bassist/poly-instrumentalist and one guitarist. Now we'd like to invite fellow San Jose/Bay Area conspirators and explorers to join. We envision the addition of a keyboardist/violinist/flautist/vocalist or any permutation or variation thereof. Influences include KC among many others. The goal is to have fun, make interesting music and gig from time to time. This band is not a career but could provide a suitable distraction from a career for those who need or want it ;-). Please contact Adrian (adrian_c at pacbell dot net) or Jim (james_mallonee at bmc dot com) if you are interested or if you have any leads. Thanks in advance, Nic Roozeboom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:25:07 EST From: ChalkPie88 at aol dot com Subject: mellotron For those of you who missed hearing the mellotron on TCOL, go buy "Antipop" by Primus - Tom Waits plays one on it. Frank ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:56:40 -0500 From: David Vella Subject: Al Anderson in ET? Dear Crimfanatics, In ET #785, Joe Hartley responds to one of those infernal 6-degrees puzzles with: > The Shaggs' first album was re-released on Red Rooster thanks > to the hard work of Terry Adams of NRBQ. Al Anderson, formerly > the Q's guitarist, has a solo album ("Pay Before You Pump") on > which Elvis Costello appears. Use your favorite Elvis C.->Fripp > connection for the rest. My interest is not in the 6-degrees puzzle itself, but I am amazed that Al Anderson's name came up in this newsletter. To celebrate, here is a little trivia puzzle for you all: Name the band Al Anderson was in *before* NRBQ. This is probably hard unless you grew up in the Northeast in the mid to late 60's. The band had mostly regional success - however - and this is what makes it legitimate for a wider audience - they did have one national hit, which was subsequently covered by a big-name southern rock band. Bonus points if you name the hit and the band that covered it. Apologies for a post not directly related to King Crimson - but hopefully it is close enough (shall we say within 6 degrees? Ha Ha) to escape Toby's "big bit bucket". Cheers, David Vella - -- ==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==* David C. Vella Office: Harder Hall 219 Associate Professor of Mathematics 518-580-5291 Skidmore College dvella at skidmore dot edu Saratoga Springs, NY 12866 Home: 518-587-5363 web-page: http://www.skidmore.edu/~dvella/dcvbio1.htm ==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==* `I prove a theorem and the house expands, the windows jerk free to hover near the ceiling, the ceiling floats away with a sigh.' -Rita Dove US Poet Laureate (1993) 'Those who dream by day are cognizant of many things that escape those who dream only at night' -Edgar Allan Poe ==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:52:05 -0500 (EST) From: dhosek at w114 dot web2010 dot com Subject: Bands covering crimson In response to the query about what KC songs other bands are covering, mine is currently working on Red (done as a guitar/bass/drum trio piece) and Three of a Perfect Pair (with female lead vocals, two acoustic guitars playing robert & adrian's lines, a flute solo in place of the synth guitar & two percussionists handling bruford's section. Tony's bass line is omitted). - -dh ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:28:16 -0800 (PST) From: John Fabiani Subject: Who is "Prolific Joe"? Hello, Robert Fripp's diary has mentioned "Prolific Joe" on a couple occasions. The context seems to suggest Prolific Joe is a recording artist. Anyone know who is "Prolific Joe"? Thanks, John ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:29:21 -0800 From: Robert Cervero Subject: Hyde Park brouhaha In #786, amid all the ballyhoo about who's holding up the '69 Hyde Park release, Mr. Sormany opines: "Personally, I'm sure at 99% (but I can't prove it) that Pete Sinfield is the member who is opposed to that release." Having corresponded with PS on several occasions on this and other matters in recent times, I'm 100% certain Mr. Sormany's wrong. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:50:17 -0500 From: Dave Lane Subject: Re: Nashville CD - track 19 problems Josh Emery wrote: > Is this maximum sarchasm, or have you guys really not read page > one(inside cover) of the liner notes? The notes in question are from the drummer/editor to the final editor, and in them he mentions "pops that you'll need to deal with". Since there are no obvious "pops", but there *are* what appear to be [at least to those of us not familiar with DAT] sounds that are similar to those you'd get with a faulty CD, please EXCUUUSE ME for having wondered if there might have been something wrong with the CD. --Dave ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 20:23:51 +1300 From: "smahoney" Subject: Gold ponycanyon remasters Hello fellow Cromsonites. Could any body out there please direct me to an honest retailer who can supply me Larks Tongues in Aspic,Red, Starless and Bible Black gold remasters. Hope you all have agreat xmas. Regards Steve MAHONEY ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 10:51:53 +0100 From: Gnad Markus Subject: Sakamoto Again / Song Titles Hey all, An addition to my recent Sakamoto posting. I actually can't DEFINITELY say if RF recorded WITH Ryuichi. This also goes for the "degrees of separation stuff": We all can't say / know if someone recorded WITH somebody else. Often recordings are made without the artists really seeing each other (and this does not mean that one is having a smoke outside). Sometimes a guy records his stuff on this side of the planet, and the other completes it on the other side. Or so. And a question to you all: Who is actually responsible for the ...uhm... very funny... song titles on the Crim improvs? Are they created by all or is there one single brain who invents titles like... "Mother Hold The Candle Steady...", "Uboo" et all? With kindest wishes Markus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:09:45 +0100 From: John Sowerby Subject: Buddy Rich Hi all, Well, in the midst of the 6 degrees thread, this little gem turned up... >One of Tony Levin's earliest (first?) >professional bass playing gigs was with Buddy Rich's big band. Now that is something I didn't know. I still have fond memories of going with my Dad to see the Buddy Rich Big Band play in the Spa Theater, Bridlington ( my home town), one of the most unlikely places Rich must have played on his UK tour. Now there was a drummer... John. The Professor. Coming soon, Miami, FL. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #788 ********************************