Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #786 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 786 Tuesday, 12 December 2000 Today's Topics: NEWS: The six degrees thread is over (almost) Danger of Photography at Concerts. six degrees game Club#12 controversy HYde Park continues Re: Gentle Giant Talk: Fripp to the Dead KC digs KC? Re: Sylvian/Sakamoto six degrees -- enough arrrgghhh ET Hymn Fw: Article from the globeandmail.com Web Centre KCCC 12: Copyrights Bill and Pat Vs. The Can of Worms Bruford live cd. Deception Of The Thrush 6 degree nonsense Vanity Six Degrees Six degrees - Feynman & Lydon Dolly Parton, Grouch Marx Re: Nashville CD - track 19 problems nashville T19 Sex and King Crimson..... Enough of the six degrees ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 10:37:12 -0500 From: "Toby Howard (ET Moderator)" Subject: NEWS: The six degrees thread is over (almost) OK, enough already. No more posts to ET on the six degrees thread please. I already have the next ET queued, full of this stuff. The last ET to feature the six degrees game will be the next one (#787). Any new six-degree posts to ET will automatically go into the big bit-bucket. Six-degree enthusiasts, please continue by private mail if you wish, or set up a chatroom or something! Cheers Toby ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 19:32:01 -0500 From: "Ressel, David Lee" Subject: Danger of Photography at Concerts. I am delurking to pass on this interesting lawsuit, papers available at http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/donhenley1.shtml . Apparently, a woman is suing Don Henley for striking her with a maraca after she snapped a flash photo at a concert. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 20:20:01 -0500 From: aqd Subject: six degrees game The problem with the six degrees game is that it's far to easy to link musicians to Fripp, even without resorting to "so and so wrote such and such which whosit once whistled in the washroom of an arena that Fripp once played in." Heavens to betsy, even I'm four degrees removed by shared recordings, and I'm just about the smallest nobody that's ever put sound to tape. Not to be a killjoy, but isn't it time to deadthread this, at least for the time being? One degree removed from any sense of sanity Aardimus Received: from m1 ([130.88.192.2] helo=m1.cs.man.ac.uk ident=0) by mailhost with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #3) id 144wcv-0002Uv-00 for et at mailhost dot cs dot man dot ac dot uk; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 02:54:13 +0000 Received: from beryl.propagation.net by m1.cs.man.ac.uk (8.8.8/AL/MJK-2.0) id CAA26378; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 02:54:12 GMT Received: (from mail@localhost) by beryl.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA01990 for et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 20:53:46 -0600 Received: from web1206.mail.yahoo.com (web1206.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.142]) by beryl.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA01968 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 20:53:45 -0600 Received: (qmail 8537 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Dec 2000 03:52:32 -0000 Message-ID: <20001210035232 dot 8536 dot qmail at web1206 dot mail dot yahoo dot com> Received: from [200.217.159.124] by web1206.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 09 Dec 2000 19:52:32 PST Reply-To: bleicher at who dot net Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 19:52:32 -0800 (PST) From: Lucas Bleicher Subject: Help with Sex, Sleep, Eat, Drink, Dream To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I play on a band whose members have very different preferences on music (just imagine: we play Queen, Alanis Morissete and King Crimson!). I'm always suggesting some prog numbers to the guys, but I came to a problem: Everybody loved the suggestion of "Sex Sleep Eat Drink Dream", but none of the guitarists could figure out that riff. Can anybody clarify this? We already play Red, that has a tablature on elephant-talk. If someone could helpe me with this one, I'd be very thankful. And you'd make a band play a Crim song, which is a very good thing anyway :) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 22:58:27 -0500 (EST) From: Darryl Subject: Club#12 controversy Hello Elephantheads, As someone mentioned in ET#783 Fripp noted in his diaries that a "first generation Crim" was against the Hyde Park release. I don't think it's Sinfield or else he would have complained about the '71-'72 line-up releases. To me it sounds like Greg Lake. Sure, he seemed to be behind the Epitaph release, but maybe he wasn't so hot about KCCC#1(the only Club release thus far with that line-up). Maybe Lake would rather be known as 1/3 of ELP instead of the original bassist/vocalist for KC? Darryl ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 15:22:55 +1100 From: "Alan Todhunter" Subject: HYde Park continues >What is going on with Hyde Park ? Copyrights? It's from a >bootleg isn't it? Or are the Satanic Majesties themselves (greedy buggers) >involved in some manner? A reader of Elephant wrote that the likely party was probably Greg Lake/his agent. I would also consider this as a likely scenerio but consider the latter would be a motivating contributor. This is not the first time that I have informed of this fellows actions. AJT ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 23:56:03 EST From: Robbriryon at aol dot com Subject: Re: Gentle Giant Glad to see the recent messages concerning this lost band. Seen them many times in Philadelphia during the Free Hand/Interview/Missing Piece years, and they were absolutely fantastic. Got most of their CD's and highly recommend them. But if you've never experienced their music, their second album kinda says a lot in it's title..Acquiring The Taste. Take care all. John G. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 01:58:12 EST From: DonnonMurray at aol dot com Subject: Talk: Fripp to the Dead OK . Why not? I'll play the "Degrees of Separation" game. How about Robert Fripp to the Grateful Dead? I can do it in four. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 11:50:32 +0100 From: "Marcus Enochsson" Subject: KC digs KC? Hey all! Just flipped through a free Swedish new music mag called "Ny musik" (and now guess what THAT means). I was indeed pleased to see them take up the subject of a symphonic rock revival, and recommending Spock's Beard (V + Don't try this at home), Flower Kings (Alive on planet earth), King Crimson (LTIA + Red) and Sylvian (Everything and nothing) albums as X-mas gifts. Still, the greatest surprise was to read that "Kurt Cobain loved King Crimson". I had no idea. Anyone got more info? Please send, if so. I've also heard that Smashing Pumpkins acknowledge KC as an influence. Sincerely, Marcus www.mp3.com/zealous ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 12:10:40 +0000 From: huwgriffiths Subject: Re: Sylvian/Sakamoto > > > Can't seem to find an answer to this one - does anyone know if Mr. Fripp > played the solo on this track - sounds rather like him... > Sylvian fan de-lurking to tell you that its not Fripp on this track - its the jazz guitarist Bill Frissell. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 12:43:08 -0000 From: "Andrew Horne" Subject: six degrees -- enough arrrgghhh Just received the ET digest #783 in which sixteen of the twentyfour posts were about something called six degrees. Is it just me that finds this rather dull? The first couple okay, but it isn't really much of a challenge to find the connection between two people normally, never mind that this is contained within the relatively small reference area of western music. Andy.. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 14:44:35 +0100 From: "Markus Gnad" Subject: ET Hymn YOU'RE HERE THERE'S NOTHING I FEAR AND I KNOW THAT MY HEART WILL MOVE ON... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 16:13:26 +0100 From: "Markus Gnad" Subject: Fw: Article from the globeandmail.com Web Centre WG: Article from the globeandmail.com Web CentreUhm... I got this forwarded. Read it and weep. Markus >The Globe and Mail, Monday, November 27, 2000 > >In the court of the Crimson fanatics > >By Alan Niester > > >At The Warehouse in Toronto on Friday REVIEWED BY >It is a little bit ironic, and perhaps just a little bit sad, that despite >a career that has lasted (off and on) for more than 30 years, the best >remembered songs from progressive rock pioneers King Crimson remain to this >day the ones from its 1969 debut album. Classic rock radio is still in love >with such songs as In The Court Of The Crimson King and 21st Century >Schizoid Man, even though Crimson founder and stalwart Robert Fripp has >long since left them behind. > >But it must be the enduring popularity of those very songs that continues >to draw the fans. It seems almost inconceivable that the band could >continue to draw as well as it does (there must have been well over a >thousand over-30 males at the club Friday night) given that its current >recorded output fits into absolutely no radio format anywhere. No blame can >be laid at the feet of radio programmers either, given that listening to >present-day Crimson is an incredibly demanding experience. > >The latest incarnation of King Crimson still features Fripp, of course (the >anti-rock star, he is professorial and taciturn on stage, never talking, >barely acknowledging his adoring cult), and is rounded out by long-time >sideman Adrian Belew on guitars, with Trey Gunn on bass and Pat Mastelotto >on drums. It's a highly accomplished outfit, but one that seems to perform >more for its own enjoyment than that of the audience. > >Friday's set list was almost totally dominated by numbers from the band's >latest CD, The ConstruKction of Light. These songs fall somewhere between >the traditional progressive rock structures of the early seventies and the >jazz/rock fusion experiments of the eighties and nineties, as if Steve Vai >or Eric Johnson were fronting a reformed version of Yes or Genesis. > >At times, this version of Crimson hinted at commercial potential. ProzaKc >Blues, for example, was a powerful rocker that fell somewhere between the >classic sound of Crimson and the current direction of industrial rockers >like Nine Inch Nails. It was ultimately scuttled, though, by Belew's >affected vocals, that sounded more like Louis Armstrong that Trent Reznor. >And numbers such as Coda: I Have A Dream and Into The Frying Pan dropped >bits of Beatles-like harmonies and Yes/Genesis riffing and melody into what >was ultimately the most commercial sounding King Crimson music in years. > >But as is their wont, the quartet ultimately managed to push the envelope >too far, delving into pointless instrumental Sturm und Drang on numbers >such as Lark's Tongues in Aspic Part IV and the album's title cut. > >When it was all over, the band managed to milk a couple of encores. But one >couldn't help but wonder if the reason the crowd kept calling them back was >in the vain hope that Fripp would resurrect those above-mentioned classics. >It didn't happen. After all, why would one need to hear 21st Century >Schizoid Man when one can watch a quartet of them. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 11:14:40 -0500 From: "Louis Sormany" Subject: KCCC 12: Copyrights Laurent Masse writes in ET 783: >What is going on with Hyde Park ? Copyrights? It's from a >bootleg isn't it? Or are the Satanic Majesties themselves (greedy buggers) >involved in some manner? Robert wrote in his diary some months ago that one of the members of the original KC was opposed to this release. Robert wished he would express his concerns in the guestbook. This did not happen and the member remains anonymous; however, as Ian and Mike both contributed liner notes, the anonymous member in question should be either Peter Sinfield, or more probably Greg Lake/his agent.' Personnally, I'm sure at 99% (but I can't prove it) that Pete Sinfield is the member who is opposed to that release. If you go to the address below, you will see that Fripp and Sinfield are not at all of the same opinion about DGM, copyrights questions and many other things! A very interesting reading by the way... http://www.interx.net/~jgreen/RantingShaman.html Louis PS: Salut Laurent. C'est toujours bon de voir qu'il y a des fans de King Crimson francophones... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:03:45 From: "Cedric Hendrix" Subject: Bill and Pat Vs. The Can of Worms Hey Y'all, Okay -- let's stop this debate before it starts, and put the lid back on the can of worms that's being opened. Bill Bruford and Pat Mastellotto are both outstanding drummers. But comparing the two to determine who is "better" is to compare apples and oranges. Within the double trio, the two were referred to as "Elvin Ringo," and there was a reason for that. Pat is a drummer rooted in groove, and very on top of the beat (unless the music calls for him to do otherwise). Bill is a drummer who loves to alter the beat wherever he can. He's more than capable of playing on the beat, but doesn't seem to feel the need. Both approaches are more than acceptable, as long as the music calls for it. So stop this already. Honestly, I think ETers just enjoy arguing for the sake of doing so. It's a concept I just don't understand. Love them both for what they bring to music in general, and Crimson in particular. I hope to hear them together again someday. But if we don't, well ... it was fun while it lasted. Until next time ... Peace, Ced p.s. -- And for the love of all things holy, ENOUGH with the six degrees crap. Thank you. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 02:01:29 -0500 From: Enriqke Emanueli Subject: Bruford live cd. Hello. While I was browsing e-bay, I found a live cd by Bruford during the GGT tour. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=520457236 Enrike ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:20:12 +0100 From: "Schopf" Subject: Deception Of The Thrush Hi, I'm relatively new here and this is my second post to ET. Sorry, if this topic has been discussed before. Being an admirer of KC's ProjeKcts box (as well as the great improvs on Heavy ConstruKction) I got interested in the Deception Of The Thrush CD. I'd like to know what the mixture on this CD sounds like and what songs are on Deception Of The Thrush - A Young Person's Guide To ProjeKcts. But the tracklist didn't help me much, so here are my questions: Track 1 - 7 Masque Can anyone please tell me which Masque tracks from P3 these are? Track 12 The Deception Of The Thrush Which version is this? The ET-website says P3/P4 (???) although Deception is only on the P2/P4 CDs. Track 13 - 15 Ghost (part 1) Track 16 - 17 Ghost (part 2) Again, which Ghost tracks from P4 are these? Does it make sense to buy The Deception Of The Thrush, although I am a proud owner of the ProjeKcts box? Is there anything special on Deception that's not in the box (maybe remixed/reworked versions or recordings from different evenings, enhanced part, interesting booklet etc.)? Every info is appreciated, thanks a lot, Tom ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 15:09:49 -0500 From: "Peter Shindler" Subject: 6 degree nonsense A few loose ends from last time: KC to John Lydon? Lydon was in PIL with Jah Wobble, who collaborated with Brian Eno on "Spinner," and from Eno, it's easy. KC to Dolly Parton? Dolly recorded "Trio" with Emmylou Harris (and Linda Ronstadt). Emmylou Harris's album "Wrecking Ball" was produced by Daniel Lanois (who also sings and plays guitar on several tracks), another frequent Eno collaborator. KC to Weird Al Yankovic? Not sure. But Rick Derringer played guitar on several of his albums, and he must have crossed paths with some KC alumni somewhere. (???) Oh, and I'm not sure I like this business of counting someone because they covered someone else's song. I played "Sartori in Tangier" once, so can I be a link too? :) Peter ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 14:26:08 -0600 From: Don Hosek Subject: Vanity Six Degrees Whoa, it occurs to me that I can also make the cut (with the requirement that one must perform or record with someone to qualify as an association).: I recorded a demo with Roey Ben-Yoseph on drums. He recorded with Big wheel produced by Jon Rubin Jon Rubin recorded with the Rubinoos with Kevin Gilbert Kevin recorded a number of projects with Nick D'Virgilio Nick was on Genesis' Calling All Stations Mike Rutherford or Tony Banks -> Phil Collins Phil -> Fripp on Exposure. Although depending on how you count I may have just missed the cut-off. I'm sure there's a shorter path from Kevin Gilbert to Fripp than what I came up with. -dh --- "Granted, the probability of a Double Bassist being BOTH awake and curious is vanishingly small" -Kenneth Sloan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:51:44 -0000 From: "mark" Subject: Six degrees - Feynman & Lydon It must be said this 6 degrees thing is considerably more interesting than - "KC would be better if..." and "I have the right to upset Fripp/KC because..." KC to John Lydon (there are probably shorter ones) ( 4 steps) : Lyndon -> Jah Wobble (PIL) -> Holger Czukay ->Sylvian -> Fripp Vanity (4 steps) Me - > Chris Hart (a mate who I was in a band with once) -> ? (the guy Chris bought his drums from and Brufords roadie in the disciple era) -> Bruford -> Fripp Fripp -> Feynman (via Tuva) (4 steps) Feynman -> Ralph Leighton (a friend he played the bongos with) -> Zappa (common interest in Tuva) -> Adrian Belew -> Fripp (for more info : http://www.fotuva.org/newsletters/wheel.html ) How about Fripp -> the Pope mark junklight - dark experimental electronics http://www.junklight.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 15:56:48 EST From: Hocow at aol dot com Subject: Dolly Parton, Grouch Marx Somebody stop me. I hate myself for getting sucked into these but I can't quit. Fripp to Levin to Robbie Robertson (Robbie's first solo album)to Aaron Neville (Robbie's Storyville album)to Linda Ronstadt (a whole album of duets) to Dolly Parton (Trio with Emmy Lou Harris). Fripp to Boz to Paul Rogers (Bad Co) to Jimmy Page (The Firm) to Donovan (Hurdy Gurdy Man) To Alice Cooper (Billion Dollar Babies) who frequently played golf with Grouch Marx. I know it's a stretch but it used to be reported a lot that they hung out together. That's as close as I can get. I know it's a stretch. Oh shit it's seven degrees. Change it to Levin to Alice etc. Argh..........It's madness. Madness I tell you. Brad Wilmot ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 16:06:44 -0500 From: Josh Emery Subject: Re: Nashville CD - track 19 problems Is this maximum sarchasm, or have you guys really not read page one(inside cover) of the liner notes? Josh > OK, I can accept DAT glitches on the original tape being left in to > preserve the integrity of the original performance. It's a plausible > explanation - consistent with the concept of KCCC releases. Maybe a small > note in the fine-print of the Liner Notes would have helped, assuming that > this is the explanation. > > Tony Iremonger > Melbourne, Australia > > >John Sullivan wrote: > >I'll bet those are on the original tapes. Sounds like DAT glitches to me. > >Just a little extra flavor, I imagine. > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:51:27 -0800 (PST) From: Ralph Foster Subject: nashville T19 > > Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 12:18:35 +1100 > From: Tony Iremonger > Subject: Nashville CD - track 19 problems > > OK, I can accept DAT glitches on the original tape being left in to > preserve the integrity of the original performance. It's a plausible > explanation - consistent with the concept of KCCC releases. Maybe a small > note in the fine-print of the Liner Notes would have helped, assuming that > this is the explanation. > > Tony Iremonger > Melbourne, Australia > > >John Sullivan wrote: > >I'll bet those are on the original tapes. Sounds like DAT glitches to me. > >Just a little extra flavor, I imagine. > My booklet clearly said that there were going to be occasional problems on the tracks. Pat Mastelotto said 'I redid this once already ...' and 'Sorry I have spent hundreds of hours .... I have to move on.' So, they DID warn you in the booklet to expect some problems. In any case, where else are you going to hear this stuff? That's the point of the KCCC, you get to hear the stuff that is not ready for prime time (in the band's view) without supporting bootleggers (which KC seems not to want to do) And with providing a chance for the performers to earn some copyright fees (which KC seems to want to do). -- Ralph Foster Joint Institute for the Study of the Atmosphere and Ocean Box 354235 University of Washington Seattle, WA, 98195-4235 (206) 221-5832 fax: (206) 685-3397 ralph at atmos dot washington dot edu, rcf at atmos dot washington dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:12:07 EST From: Josette484 at aol dot com Subject: Sex and King Crimson..... There are not many ladies posting here I see...Well, from a female point of view it should be pointed out(ENUOGH of the intellectual gibberish already!) that all of the muscians in KC are VERY sexy and appealing in one way or another.....I knew Robert back in the 70's, and I found him to be absolutely delightful,witty and charming. Upon recently meeting Pat,my opinion of him is that he is both entertaining and quite sociable....Adrian is the one who really captured my interest,too bad he didn't come back to have that cocktail that he mentioned :( ...I'll have to find out more about him...and Trey is definately the "Boy Toy" in the band...all the girls agree he is "hot". Any other ladies here care to comment? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:30:50 EST From: AlfredDodson at aol dot com Subject: Enough of the six degrees it's about time we make the 6 degrees topic a dead thread? aKd ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #786 ********************************