Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #782 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 782 Thursday, 7 December 2000 Today's Topics: Fripp to Donovan donavan six degrees 6 degrees, sorry, it's too easy... easy 6 degrees of separation/cover songs Whaaaaaat? (was Dark?) Fripp to Donovan Win a CD! Re: Thrush Re: The Fourth Coming Of Saint William Of Bruford Re: Double Duo Re: Fripp to Donovan 6 Degrees: Kathie Lee to Fripp Son of "Another six degrees" Re: Six degrees of Robert Fripp website How Many Degrees of Separation Encore Madness Nashville CD - track 19 problems #19, Mincer and Scariness, and Yo Ho High Nashville CD - track 19 problems Re: six degrees of seperation Gentle Giant 6 degrees from Donovan Re: Encores / Fripp's behaviour ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:13:57 -0500 From: "Brown, Ken" Subject: Fripp to Donovan This one is harder? Donovan to Holdsworth (on the Hurdy Gurdy sessions, which also feature Jimmy Page, John Paul Jones and John Bohman, gee I wonder what band they went on to form!) to Bruford to Fripp. I think in order to make it harder you need either more obscure person or someone not in the rock/pop field. as always Keep the Faith (in the Music) ken PS and about the best Crim related release, while I'd admit in heartbeat I love BLUE nights (to the point that I will never listen to the studio cd again) did the poster think of all the Crim related bands? (ELP, YES, UK , Asia, Bruford, Bad Company, Zappa, Talking Heads, Eno, No Man, Foreigner, Bowie, plus everybody Levin worked with?, plus countless others) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:59:36 -0800 From: "Michael Destefano" Subject: donavan six degrees if i remember corectly didn't crimson#1 cover one of his songs? get thy bearings the other one is : donavan sang on alice coopers billion dollar babies album bob ezrin produced that album-steve hunter and dick wagner also played guitar all three were involved on peter gabriels first solo album fripp played on that album as well ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 15:51:51 +0000 From: Peter Clinch

Subject: 6 degrees, sorry, it's too easy... Perhaps abandon these if you can't come up with something *really* spookily difficult... In ET 780 Geordie Robertson asked: > The last six degrees of seperation seemed a little too easy... This > one may be easy too. How about from Fripp to Donovan in six steps or > less? Donovan's "Barabajagal" featured Jeff Beck on guitar, JB (1) has been noted in diary entries as visiting KC gigs, RF has been noted attending JB gigs. If showing up at one another's gigs isn't good enough, Terry Bozio (2) played on JB's "Guitar Shop", TB was in Zappa's (3) band with Ade (4). or... on the same album, Danny Thompson (1) played bass, DT has played bass for Kate Bush (2), who's been exec produced by Dave Gilmour (3), who used T-Lev (4) on Momentary Lapse of Reason, who's played with RF one or two times... or... "Sunshine Superman" features Jimmy Page (1) on guitar, who teamed up with Paul Rodgers (2) in the Firm, after he left Bad Company which featured Boz (3) on bass after he left KC. and so on... So perhaps sweat profusely at making the connections yourself before submitting more? With KC alumni having played with so many people, it's usually pretty straightforward. Pete. -- Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p dot j dot clinch at dundee dot ac dot uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 10:52:59 -0500 From: David Vella Subject: easy 6 degrees of separation/cover songs in ET #780, Geordie Robertson wrote: > The last six degrees of seperation seemed a little too easy... This > one may be easy too. How about from Fripp to Donovan in six steps or > less? You ARE joking, right? Let's see, Donovan was the "English Bob Dylan" (or wishes he was), Dylan wrote 'All Along the Watchtower', which was covered by Jimi Hendrix (b.t.w., how many other folks agree that Hendrix' version of 'Watchtower' gets the prize for 'best improvement of a cover artist over the original' of all time?). Finally, Hendrix once shook Fripp's hand (with his own left hand) as an expression of professional respect. Now I'm joking! The real answer is, of course, that the original King Crimson covered 'Get Thy Bearings', a Donovan song from the Hurdy Gurdy Man LP. (There are several versions on "Epitaph".) One step. Incidentally, 'Get Thy Bearings' is one of only a small handful of songs by other artists covered by King Crimson. The only others I know of are Holst's 'Mars', Pharaoh Sander's 'The Creator Has a Master Plan', and much later with the double duo, Bowie's 'Heroes', and a few moments of 'Tomorrow Never Knows' on the recent tour. But there are rumors that when the original Crimson was in the rehearsal stages, prior to their first public shows, they practiced 2 other cover songs: a Beatles tune (I forget - was it 'Lucy in the Skies with Diamonds'?), and a Joni Mitchell tune (I think it was 'Michael from Mountains' from her first album?) My question - do recordings exist anywhere of these rehearsals? I'd love to hear them as part of a set of rehearsals released in the collector's club, much in the same way as KCCC #13 are the Nashville rehearsals. Anyone else agree? -David Vella -- ==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==* David C. Vella Office: Harder Hall 219 Associate Professor of Mathematics 518-580-5291 Skidmore College dvella at skidmore dot edu Saratoga Springs, NY 12866 Home: 518-587-5363 web-page: http://www.skidmore.edu/~dvella/dcvbio1.htm ==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==* `I prove a theorem and the house expands, the windows jerk free to hover near the ceiling, the ceiling floats away with a sigh.' -Rita Dove US Poet Laureate (1993) 'Those who dream by day are cognizant of many things that escape those who dream only at night' -Edgar Allan Poe ==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 16:12:12 +0000 From: Peter Clinch

Subject: Whaaaaaat? (was Dark?) in ET 780 Timothy Cox thought: > It is absolutely impossible for Belew to be dark Except on those occaisions when he is, that is. let's see, Indiscipline, Cage, Dig Me, Sex Sleep Eat Drink Dream, ProzaKc Blues, Oyster Soup, I Have a Dream... How are these not dark in some way? > if the technology can produce a full, powerful, and natural sound > then use it (e.g... mellotron) Ah, now I understand! it's a joke post! ;-)... The only thing a mellotron sounds like is a mellotron, and while I'd say it can be a wonderful sound I wouldn't call it "natural" to any great degree, nor necessarily fuller or thicker than the stuff the boys are using today. I've heard the reediest "reeds" and most sickly strings imaginable from a mellotron, while there are some awesomely dark, full and powerful grunts from the black boxes on the recent material. The opening Crunch! Pat deploys on Thrush being a particularly obvious example. Pete. -- Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p dot j dot clinch at dundee dot ac dot uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 15:18:57 -0500 From: Andrew dot Baxley at USPTO dot GOV Subject: Fripp to Donovan An easy "six degrees" exercise: (1) Fripp is the president of Discipline Global Mobile, for which John Paul Jones records. (2) John Paul Jones played bass on Donovan's "Hurdy Gurdy Man." BTW, "Hurdy Gurdy Man" was the first song on which Jimmy Page, John Paul Jones and John Bonham all played. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 15:20:00 EST From: Noisynoisy at aol dot com Subject: Win a CD! Congratulations to Mark McMillan who won November's Schizoidman CD of the month RESIDUE by HEFNER! Schizoidman's choice for December is a powerful crossover album guaranteed to inspire musicians and listeners alike. The best new British release. Check it out on the new Schizoidman Page at Noisy Records (schizoidmanpage.com) All you have to do to win the CD is answer 3 questions about British music. The winner will be randomly selected from the correct entries on 7th January 2001. If you haven't yet collected all your autographed King Crimson or David Cross CDs, don't forget to check them out at Noisy Records (noisy.co.uk) Best wishes to you all, David Cross and Noisy Records ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 16:41:37 -0500 (EST) From: Art Cohen Subject: Re: Thrush Someone who shall remain nameless wrote (re: Deception of the Thrush): >If D. Cross had played Trey's solo on the >violin or Fripp through an amp it would be a more strikingly beautiful >piece than it already is (Trey does a nice job though). I thought I had seen some presumptuous posts in the past -- readers who know what's REALLY BEST for Crim -- but this one takes the cake. Are there any other Gunn compositions (or co-compositions) that you would prefer to see performed by former members of the band? What next? "The Trey Gunn Band did a nice job, but they would have been much better with Tony Levin on stick"?? --Art ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:52:23 -0200 From: "Adrian Cagnani" Subject: Re: The Fourth Coming Of Saint William Of Bruford Jan Geerts wrote: "Adrian Cagnani thought that it takes a drummer or another musician to understand the 'bring Bill back kick'." No, I didn't. But that helps. "I am a musician, and I'm very happy with Pat, thank you." Me too. I never said Pat was a bad drummer. But Bill is some levels up. Ask your very talented drummer. If he's very talented, I'm sure he agrees. Adrian Cagnani ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 20:09:36 -0200 From: "Adrian Cagnani" Subject: Re: Double Duo Top Jimmy wrote: "I don't think you should assume that because I think Pat did a great job and the band did not miss a beat live without Bill and Tony that does not make me a musician or a drummer. You should not make a statement without knowing the first thing thing about the Crim fan you have never met. I happen to think Bill and Tony are both amazing, but they are not in this current lineup and I do not feel it is fair to slag the double duo or take a cheap shot at me... If you don't like TCOL, listen to the back catalog and keep your fingers crossed that the double trio will be back in action next year." I'm sorry, but a musician, at least a good one, would never say that. But I absolutelly didn't mean that like an offense. A literature teacher would never say that Sidney Sheldon is better than James Joyce. A plow man is the best person to ask which is the best plow. One is not obliged to know things. "Cheap shot" at you? Read again... BTW, I like TCOL, but my fingers are already crossed, just in case. Adrian Cagnani ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 17:39:58 -0500 From: Kathryn Ottersten Subject: Re: Fripp to Donovan Hi Crimpersons, No one mentioned this one: Nicky Hopkins played keyboards on both Giles, Giles, & Fripp and Dononvan's Barabajagal (G.G. & F. was released in 1968, and Barabajagal in 1969). And by the way - not to be too picky, but aren't these supposed to be connections of people who played together or at least worked on the same recordings? I see that people include song covers as a connection. Does that mean when I pick up my guitar and mutilate a Krim song that I am only one degree separated from RF? Cool! :-) Kathy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 18:10:54 -0500 From: Dan Cooper Subject: 6 Degrees: Kathie Lee to Fripp In ET 781, Tom Martin wrote: "How about Kathie Lee to Robert Fripp? Just kidding! I don't know, and I don't want to know." You may not want to know, but this one is simple. Kathie Lee has frequently sung with Paul Shaffer & the CBS Orchestra on Late Night with David Letterman. 1. Sid McGinnis plays guitar in that band. 2. McGinnis played on Peter Gabriel's 2nd solo album, which was produced by Robert Fripp. Here's one to challenge the old noggin: Robert Fripp to Frank Sinatra. Toodles, Crimheads DC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 18:16:45 -0500 From: Geordie Robertson Subject: Son of "Another six degrees" O.K., the Fripp to Donovan was embarassingly easy. Try this one: Fripp to Honeymoon Suite in four steps. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 15:24:46 -0800 From: "Joey Aguilera" Subject: Re: Six degrees of Robert Fripp website Sorry I have been a lazy bum ... but you can send any entries to fripp at indiscipline dot net with a short description for inclusion. Joey >Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:40:29 -0500 (EST) >From: Jim McCabe >Subject: Six degrees of Robert Fripp website >Oddly enough there's a "Six Degrees of >Robert Fripp" website, although it >hasn't been updated in a long time. Try:>http://www.indiscipline.net/fripp/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 18:59:25 -0500 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: How Many Degrees of Separation After reading some of the "Six Degrees of Separation" descriptions in the last ET, I was forced to conclude the whole exercize is ridiculous. Covering an artist counts? Opening for an artist counts? Sharing a label with an artist counts? Sampling a comedy sketxh counts? I can get from any artist to any other artist in two degrees. Example: Robert Fripp and Placido Domingo. I have heard of Fripp. I have also heard of Domingo. See? It's easy! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 00:03:18 -0000 From: "Stephen P. Goodman" Subject: Encore Madness With all this talk about what is and isn't a proper or expected encore I have to recount a story from the 70s (yes! I remember it despite having fun!) and a show by the Kinks in Asbury Park, July 77 I believe (well you can't have everything). Back then it was pretty much a challenge for the audience to goad the performers into doing an encore, and with the return of the band to the stage, well, the audience roars were always memorable. On this occasion, the Kinks came out for an encore. And another. Someone had told me to hang out, that it might be surprising. So I and my girlfriend at the time did. Half of the auditorium was already empty, some 5-7 minutes after the lights came up, and, with the lights still on, the Kinks came out again, and played three more songs for us Die Hards. Back then encores were fun, and the shows were sometimes 2-3 hours long. Now they're all pretty much 1.5 hours with two encores at the most. Makes one miss the Grateful Dead something fierce sometimes, folks. But lighten up anyway. :) Stephen Goodman http://www.earthlight.net/Studios * The free Loop of the Week! http://www.mp3.com/StephenGoodman * New MP3 Releases! http://StephenGoodman.iuma.com * Even more MP3s! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 16:58:55 -0800 From: John Sullivan Subject: Nashville CD - track 19 problems I'll bet those are on the original tapes. Sounds like DAT glitches to me. Just a little extra flavor, I imagine. I was listening to the CD at pretty high volume the first time I hit them, just about blew my mind, man. I'm getting pretty fond of them. (Along with the rest of the disc.) Of course if you're concerned about getting the correct number of error-free samples as stipulated in some implied performance contract... John ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 23:01:49 EST From: Bassdude007 at aol dot com Subject: #19, Mincer and Scariness, and Yo Ho High > Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 17:20:00 -0500 > From: Dave Lane > Subject: Nashville CD - track 19 problems > > In ET-779, two ETers complain that CCvol13 track 19 appears defective. > > I have these problems as well. Does anyone *not* have these problems > with their copy? There is no defect visible on the surface of the > disc as far as I can tell. Could it be on the master, I wonder? > > I sent e-mail to DGM asking about getting a replacement, but have not > received an answer yet--it's only been a day since I sent it, though. > Does anyone know of DGM's defective returns policy? Aside from the > defect, this is one of my favorite CC volumes so far--just the sort > of thing I was hoping for when I signed up. > > --Dave Nothing defective in the CD at all... simply great ALTERNATE time music, a nice mixdown, quality producing by Fripp and Singleton, Digital HELL from Pat.... Track #19 is The way it's supposed to be.... Tony's jam Rocks! Remember the niceness of the tape runout at the end of "The Mincer".... Freakiness on a December candle-lit night!!! SCARY MUSIC!!! For EVEN MORE fun....re-visit "Masque" if you have it. A GREAT preview of the current beast. Good "Tree Trimming" music......hmmmmmmmmm HAPPY HOLIDAYS to every Crim-Head who reads this! Peace, Listen well, Have fun, Remember to respect your fellow E.T'er and Enjoy this awesome band (however you percieve it) Patrick....the Bassdude ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 15:19:39 +1100 From: Tony Iremonger Subject: Nashville CD - track 19 problems My copy of KCCC #13 arrived here in Australia a few days ago and I have the same Track 19 problems that have been complained about here already. If I got this sort of stuff on a CD-R I'd burnt I'd throw it away! I think the best solution would be for the KCCC to write it off as a free bonus disc to all club members. This would make up for the faulty product as well as being a "reward" for continued patience with the delay to the usual release schedule. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 00:28:04 EST From: JMRosen at aol dot com Subject: Re: six degrees of seperation Lou Fazio wrote: >Greetings all. Regarding Geordie Robinson's post in ET #780: > > The last six degrees of seperation seemed a little too easy... This >one may be easy too. How about from Fripp to Donovan in six steps or >less?" > >1) Fripp/KC are on (and run) DGM records >2) DGM records issued John Paul Jones' album Zooma >3) Paul Leary (of the mighty Butthole Surfers) plays guitar on one track on >JPJ's album >4) John Paul Jones produced the Butthole's album 'Independent Worm Saloon' >5) The Buttholes covered Donovan's 'Hurdy Gurdy Man' on their album >'Pioughd' John Paul Jones played bass on Donovan's original 'Hurdy Gurdy Man' with none other than Jimmy Page AND John Bonham (Gee, where's Plant when you need him?) And you want to talk about a band that was bootlegged. . . Led Zeppelin. Imagine if Peter Grant had been Crimson's manager as well ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 01:32:28 -0500 (EST) From: Kirk Tuminaro Subject: Gentle Giant This makes my first post to ET in the two months I've been a subscriber, and I never thought it would be in response to a post about the great Gentle Giant..... :) Anyway, yes they are a very good band, right up there with KC in my opinion. I just wanted to clarify, though, for the curious that not only is In A Glass House available on CD (I've had my import copy since about 1994!!), but all their other official releases are as well. Also there is a BBC session CD out and also a King Biscuit concert. Anybody who hasn't heard of this band but is a fan of progressive rock owes it to themselves to check them out. Okay then, I've spoke my (missing) piece -- heh heh, just couldn't resist.... Take care fellow ETers! Live Long and Perspire!!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 02:58:21 -0600 From: "Wall" Subject: 6 degrees from Donovan >From: "Fazio, Lou" >Greetings all. Regarding Geordie Robinson's post in ET #780: > The last six degrees of seperation seemed a little too easy... This >one may be easy too. How about from Fripp to Donovan in six steps or >less?" A few steps can be cut out of this one >1) Fripp/KC are on (and run) DGM records >2) DGM records issued John Paul Jones' album Zooma 3) John Paul Jones is the arranger of Donovan's 'Hurdy Gurdy Man' ,'Mellow Yellow'', and 'Sunshine Superman' ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 10:51:07 +0200 From: masse at geocean dot u-bordeaux dot fr (Laurent MASSE) Subject: Re: Encores / Fripp's behaviour Don't want to agree or disagree on this whole issue, but one thing struck me when reading Ken Brown's post in #781. The conscious decision not to attend a KC concert because of Fripp possibly leaving the stage and "cutting the setlist short" seems to become some kind of norm among us. Paranoia indeed. IIRC, this happened once on the European leg (Rome), twice on the American leg (Canada). But also, some setlists on the American leg were "cut short" because of Adrian having voice problems. At least twice, probably more. But nobody has ever complained nor mentioned "a conscious decision not to attend a KC concert because of Adrian possibly having voice problems and cutting the setlist short". Why such disproportionate answers from the audience to what is basically the same problem: a physical impossibility from the players to go through the whole set due to internal (Adrian's sore throat) or external (Robert's flash aggression) factors. I know everybody will complain that this is absolutely not the same, along the lines of Adrian can not put up with sore throat (to which I clearly agree), whereas Robert can put up with flash aggression; if he does not he is a child or a diva or an asshole consciously punishing the poor innocent audient (to which I cannot fully agree because I am not in Robert's body and mind). My three points: 1) The basic unverified (at least for me) assumptions behind this whole thread are that Adrian is generally considered a not so great musician but a very nice guy and great performer. He may have occasional physical impossibilities and is forgiven immediately. On the other side, Robert is generally considered a masterful musician but some kind of emotionless robotic asshole and a poor performer (in terms of physical presence). He cannot have occasional physical impossibilities and will not be forgiven. 2) The way of considering Robert's answer to flash aggression (which, BTW, appears to me to be totally organic and in-the-moment instead of calculated) is generally full of self-projections. I don't pretend to speak for everybody (how could I?) but I suspect that a performer on stage is widely considered as being in a privileged position of power, because he is exposed and known, whereas the general audient is anonymous and thus feels inferior. 99% of rock musicians are on stage primarily to be seen and idolized and sign autographs, which is THE disrespectful behaviour towards audiences as it more or less clearly acknowledges a totally artificial superiority and is a sure sign of vanity. But Robert is the perfect anti-showman. He is on stage not to be seen, not to be idolized, but for the music. He refuses to engage in an artificial superior/inferior relationship with the audience and is hated for that because he does not act in accordance with expectations and projections. But he is one of the rare performers seen after the show and a blatant flash aggression walking through audience members with chocolates, engaging in an equal/equal relationship (WFC soundscapes). Very few answers and reactions on this, as this is not what the general audient expects/projects. No fetishizing, no worshipping possible in this context. 3) To all those who think Robert should put up with flashes: a flash will not bother you as long as you expect it and are present for it (photo sessions - and sadly 99% of rock concerts and performers). But in any other case it's disrupting and aggressive. Who can deny this? An analogy: if an audience member walked on stage, hit and wounded Robert, would you feel punished if he left the stage instead of playing FraKctured with blood on his hands? Probably a bit over the top, but denying the aggression and the wound just because you can not see it and DO NOT PLACE YOURSELF IN A POSITION TO UNDERSTAND IT is rude. Respect begins here. Everybody is free to disagree. Just respect Robert's aims and sensibilities. ___ Laurent Masse ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #782 ********************************