Date: Tue 21 Nov From: Toby Howard Subject: APOLOGIES: ET #769 was screwed
Apologies to all for the glitch in processing (my fault entirely) which resulted in the contents of ET #769 being a bit mangled, with posts appearing against the wrong authors' names.
ET Moderator and part-time twit
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:29:37 -0500 From: Ryan D Tassone <skybelow at juno dot com> Subject: THRAK era bass drum weirdness.
This is especially noticable in the 1995 video Live in Japan...Bill Bruford has two distinct bass drum sounds that change inexplicably while he is playing, seemingly to his demand. The first is a typical "thump," nothing special, used for his playing in 90% of the material in the concert. Every once in a while, such as during the show's opening improv and the first section of "B'boom," his bass drum sounds like whatever had been muffling it was suddenly taken off. The sound it makes is intentional, because the only onomatopoeia I can think of to describe it is..."b'boom." Seconds after his 7/4 roll fill, and when Fripp's swirly Soundscape has died away, the second section of that song features his original bass drum sound, your average rock "thump." Througout the video, we hear it change between the two sporadically; is there some sort of throw-off device on Bill's kit that lets him go from a contained, quick sound to an almost vocal, timpani-like sound on his bass drum? The only thing I can think of is that possibly, INSIDE his bass drum is a midget wearing earplugs, holding a pillow up to the batter head, and pulling it away when Bill gives him the signal.
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:02:58 -0600 From: James A Hogard <james dot hogard at juno dot com> Subject: Re: Ebow
> This page, http://www.ebow.com/record.htm claims that an ebow was > used on - > The Robert Fripp String Quintet: The Bridge Between. > Is this true? I assume not but do not know for sure so I can't > email them > (recordcuts at ebow dot com) and let them know.
It's Paul Richards of the CGT who was (and still is) using an ebow.
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 11:41:27 -0600 From: "Grant Colburn" <grantco at greenbaynet dot com> Subject: Re: Polish Interview
Justin A. Kolodziej wrote:
>Anyway, I thought the real reason Bill Bruford isn't in the current >Crimson is that Mr. Fripp wanted an all-electronic band, including >(V)drums, and Bruford wasn't down with that. Therefore he and Crimson >parted ways. I think that was actually in Robert Fripp's diary, though >a long time ago. >Ironically, now Pat Mastelotto is using acoustic drums in his set... a >sign of things to come?
As others have speculated, whether consciously or unconsciously I think Fripp knew that the electronic idea would give a gentle push toward getting Bruford out of the band. I certainly don't blame Fripp at all for needing this to take place. In the early 90's he tried using Jerry Marotta but it seems that his style was too straight and not "schizoid" enough. But at the same time Fripp seemed to know he couldn't depend on Bruford alone anymore to provide the type of groove he wanted to hear in the music and so initiated the 2 drummer scenario. From there I think Pat learned the best qualities of Bruford but had a tendency to provide a more or less written part that the others in the band could depend on more so than Bruford seems willing to do.
I think at this stage Fripp has every right to make Crimson as close to his own vision as possible. My feeling is that most of those terrible and excruciating writing rehearsals and recording sessions Fripp mentions ofre: Crimson's past were probably between him and Bruford. They really are contemporaries and I'm sure Bruford at this point doesn't take to following other's visions of his playing as much as he used to.
For myself, I'm happy with the way things have turned out. Bruford certainly is his own person, and really I want to hear Crimson as close to Fripp's vision as possible. And if an atmosphere as it exists now in the band helps, I'm all for it!
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:11:22 EST From: Bknt at aol dot com Subject: The Lost Ego of Norbert Fragg
Hotel Merely Egregious
The traveling gigster continues to sit, in situ veritas, awaiting his ego, which the airline considered to be of such enormity that it was refused transport as a carry-on item. Having consigned the item to the luggage bin, the gigster discovered that it was not among the crushed, shattered, shaken, stirred rocked and rolled-over items appearing in the arrival carousel. Though the gigster has previously dismissed matters of pride as so much excess baggage, he now finds the prospect of performing without himself to be somewhat wanting.
The ego has yet to arrive. Out Tray's offer of an id as a substitute has been gratefully received, but his bass motivations are not plug-compatible with the refined English sensibility. The U-D-Man Superego that Mondrian Bayou has employed recently to stunning effect requires the insertion of a device that forces the performer to remain in a standing position. This is not possible for the guitar gigster who must contemplate his stool. The drummer suggested the adoption of a Jungian rather than a Freudian mode, in which Old Baldy Carl's mystical archetypical symbols of anima, animus, shadows and spite replace Old Beardy Sigmund's cigar-scented psychoanalytic tripshtick. This causes the gigster to slump in a fit of distressed nostalgic reverie, for the sound of a different drummer, who, long away and far ago, had the good sense not to drum, when the trio was con brio.
A wretched sound check is altered by a hurried flurry of e-slurry. The purloined persona has been found!
A post to the Kvetchbook:
SlobberingGuitarFreek234 at NitNotes dot net
I'm the studio guitarist who insisted on occupying the seat next to yours on the flight into Boston and I was really expecting some abuse and you didn't disappoint me when you called me a "foul and pestilent congregation of vapors" after I compared your spider fingers riff on The ExKCeption When You Flush to Morse Man's UTTERLY RIPPIN' run on Twigs Tweaked. Anyway, I figured since I was such a nice guy and you were such a MEAN OLD POOP, I could RIP YOU OFF so I glommed this yucky, smelly thing and took it home and it is just TOOO Disgusting because it's making me want to work for no money, sell records for almost no profit, hate cameras and the rock press, humiliate semi-literate kvetchbook posters with simpering sarcasm and nasty enumerations, tell concertgoers to chat during the performance in order to "subvert the Western concert tradition" then make sarcastic remarks when they don't stop talking, assume that I'm special because an undefined Creative Presence wants to beat me with a stick while shoving music into my ludicrous maximus, and, least but not last, make loud slurping noises when I cappucino which is soooo yuppie slime, ya know?
So I took the ugly stinking mess out of my trendy rennovated South Boston apartment kicked it down the stairs but it just SAT there like some kind of overfed March hare and it would not budge. It would not follow it's own instructions! It would not MOVE ON because it HATES TO TOUR!
I am, therefore, sending it back to you, as Microsopht bile attachment. Click on the bleating heart and good riddance!
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:23:49 -0500 From: "Albert Oller" <ago at fiam dot net> Subject: Fan/Band Travels
>>If a band produces works that you consistently admire for x amount of years and then produce something unadmirable then the band has obviously taken a road that doesn't suit them as well as previous ones.
It doesn't matter whether there are fans who like the music or not, or if they are long-time or new fans. It is not up to the fans to decide what is 'suitable' for the band to create. It is up to the fans to decide if the music is suitable for themselves. The important factor is the music itself. I don't think anyone would support the idea that a band has created something that the fans must find suitable. It is a more accurately an offering that a fan can choose to accept or reject. And even if the fan accepts the offering, that doesn't mean that the fan likes what is offered, only that the offering is respected.
>>Of course you could argue that particular fans are living in the past but how do you explain that they admire new works (inconsistent with the past) from other artists.
Simple. The fans like what is being created; the fans and the band are still going down a road (even if inconsistent with the past) that they can share together. Maybe the band's new music has taken only an incremental step forward and the fans can understand the progression. Maybe if the fans don't like the new work of a band it is because the band has jumped too far forward for the fans to follow, or maybe the band has jumped to a different road that the fans have no interest in following. Maybe the fans just don't like the new music even if they understand where the band is going.
>>Markus's argument is valid.
I think Markus's argument is valuable (but not valid) in that it helps us understand the strong emotions people have about things they love, and that we shouldn't judge others harshly.
>>You fan boys can lie to yourselves all you want ...
What is a 'fan boy'? I've never seen it used outside of ET. I don't think I'm a 'fan boy', but I like what I've heard from the current King Crimson, and I'm sure that I am not lying to myself.
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 12:58:05 -0800 (PST) From: Schizoid Man <nickgrimson at yahoo dot com> Subject: PCCK: Email from an alerted fan on Ebay
Here's a friendly (kept anonymous) email from a man who bid on a fake KC cd:
Thanks for the heads up I have owned the LP of "USA" since 1976 and have always wanted it on CD. The sellers say's its a Russian Import, Remaster.
As a musician and recording studio owner I feel sorta dumb. I figured imports and such were not always released in the US and didnt even think it was a fake. Since I already have the vinyl I dont want a CD copy with all the pops and clicks.
I will email them and find out more. Maybe we can crack a ring of bootleggers from the Russian mafia?
I will also check out DGM's site again. Its always fun to read Fripps diaries and stuff.
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 16:50:35 EST From: ChalkPie88 at aol dot com Subject: Heeeeeellllllllppppppp!!!! (please)
I CANNOT get my CD-ROM to Heavy ConstruKction to work. Every time I try, it seems to tell me that I have an error or connection problem. Do I have to be connected to the internet in order to watch this thing??? I know I need Windows Media, which I have. I am running a Power Mac 6500/250. Please advise, I am dying to see the close-ups of Fripp's fingers in action!!!!!
Also, Toby, I just entered Elephant-Talk into a sort-of contest I guess of outstanding rock websites that was advertised on www.cupofwonder.com (an OUSTANDING Jethro Tull website that goes way deep into the mad mind of genius Ian Anderson). Any Tull fans or any fans period interested in fascinating discussions of superb lyrics should check out that site.
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 22:56:14 +0100 From: "Richard van Roomen" <rwpvanroomen at freeler dot nl> Subject: To move on or not to move on
Markus Gnad is absolutely right: after listening to Crimson for many years being disappointed by one album and tour need not drive you away and by no means says you are stuck in the past. Move on if you must but take your time.
But to all those who are dismayed by the current Crim: I hate to say "Robert told you so..." but Robert told you so... :-) I remember him writing (and you could almost see the big grin on his face) that he loved the new album but (maybe: because?) Crimson fans would hate it - or words to that effect. At least it once again certainly validates Robert's belief that Crimson always elicits polar responses from the listening community. Most posters seem to either worship or despise the current Crim, without much middle ground.
I happen to be in the first category (well, dunno about worship... :-) and I remember commenting in an email to a friend, after attending the June 25 Paris concert, that the current lineup makes the Double Trio sound like the Spice Girls. No offense intended to either DT or SG and it may be somewhat boldly stated, but the point is that for the first time, after listening to Crim live recordings for years and seeing them live once before, I had an inkling of what Robert means when he speaks of the "unnerving power" Crim has when it truly flies. The 1996 Double Trio concert in The Hague (Netherlands) was a dazzling display but to me no more than that. This June night I was standing outside Olympia blinking my eyes and wondering "what the hell just happened in there?"
To me the Double Duo is easily the best Crim lineup since 1974. I prefer it over the 1981-4 band because it is darker, bleaker, closer to the edge. I prefer it over the Double Trio because it is less cluttered: there's less musicians and more space. The music to me seems to breathe more, particularly live. And Crimson is not just about playing heavy metal in 17/16 :-)
I also like the Double Duo because Bill Bruford is not there (Note: written by someone whose record collection contains almost every album Billy B. ever played on!) What he brought to Crimson and what Robert possibly didn't particularly want for this band can be heard on the last Earthworks album and the Blue Nights live album.
What I have always liked about Bill's drumming is that he is very much out in front. He doesn't sit in the back and tap out the rhythm, he is part of the music all the way.
What I often don't like about his drumming is that he is very much out in front. His drumming is all over the place and takes up a lot of space and attention.
And my reaction constantly changes from "Yeah! Go Bill!" to "Whoa Bill! Calm down, there's someone else playing!" To me that duality is part of what makes Bill Bruford such a fascinating drummer. But not for this band. Not now.
I hope this doesn't become the "Bill Bruford Information Site." (Toby, STOP 'EM!) Can hardly wait for the new Earthworks album, though.
Was that two cents?
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 06:16:44 +0800 From: Julie Wilson <barknmad at webace dot com dot au> Subject: Re: e-bows & sustains
Dear KC fans,
Regarding David Isaaks email about whether Fripp uses the E-Bow on early Crim recordings. As far as I know the E-Bow wasn't commercially available until about 1975, a short time after KC disolved in the 70's. Another factor to take into account is that Fripp tends to go from playing picked notes to "violined" sustained sounds quickly and frequently. A feat hard to achieve, but not impossible, on the E-Bow. It's more likely that Fripp used to place his amp speaker in such a position that he could swivel himself on his stool to face the amp whenever he wanted feedback/sustain. I do this myself, and by keeping all settings and positions constant all the time you very quickly learn where to face the guitar to get the sound you want.
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 14:22:08 -0800 From: John Brower <JohnBrower at FairIsaac dot com> Subject: Harlan Ellison on Fan Behavior
I've been slow getting around to this, but thought ET readers might be interested to know that ambivalence towards fans because of past encounters with them extends to the world of literature.
Harlan Ellison has written an eloquent account of this in "Xenogenesis", which first appeared in 1990 in the magazine Midnight Graffiti and can be found in his collection EDGEWORKS VOLUME 1 (White Wolf, 1996).
I do not have the author's permission to quote from the text, but will try to summarize:
If you become the consumer of an artist's work, you are entitled only to that work. Not their autograph, or their photograph, or their correspondence, or their personal attention, or anything else.
You, the consumer, know nothing of the artist: their personal life, their health, their finances, the demands made on them by any number of people, conditions and circumstances.
If an artist decides to give of their time and energy to grant your personal request, enjoy the moment. If they do not, let it go.
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 23:45:29 From: "Cedric Hendrix" <cedrichendrix at hotmail dot com> Subject: Pat's Picture Perfect Pockets
It's time for me to say what should have been said long ago, but hasn't seem to come to light yet.
Pat Mastellotto kicks butt.
I admit, I was one of the silent gripers, who worried what would happen without Billy B. I needn't have.
No, the band doesn't sound the same. But that's not a bad thing. In fact, it may be one of the best things to happen to this group.
Pat has a better feel for groove than just about anyone out there today (save maybe Carter Beauford). And his cut and paste sampling abilities are beyond reproach. The man flat-out ROCKS! (That goes for Bill Munyon, too.)
Those of you who haven't given MasticA a try most definitely should. It's not Crimson, but it is great music. And gives you a better feel for what Pat does. Then go back and listen to the ProjeKcts (especially the two PX discs). By then, you should be able to hear what a fantastic drummer Crimson has.
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 20:43:47 -0300 From: "jose poggio" <jose at jpoggio dot com> Subject: Objective but relative. Subjective and absolute.
IAIN KITT SAID:
I was talking about. One cannot say that OBJECTIVELY some sort of music is bad or OBJECTIVELY a band has taken a road that doesn't suit them as well as previous ones - it is a SUBJECTIVE feeling, and I was referring to a possible SUBJECTIVE hurt caused by that.
Hi IAIN & Crimsophiles:
I partially disagree and agree with this opinion. Just to add some thoughts on the matter: Somebody can make an objective criticisim in a musical analysis. One can make objective criticism, but not to the music itself as a pretended entity. It may be objective, but will never be ABSOLUTE, and It has to be considered made to a particular performance or recording. I agree that one cannot say that one sort of music is particularly bad itself, but because It depends on who is playing it. Hip-Hop played extremely well by Jeff Beck is excellent music. Played by bad musicians is a disaster. The same with classical music or whatever. Nevertheless i think that pure rapp is a disaster itself despite someone could introduce rapp elements in a good piece of music very well interpreted, but this should not be considered a rapp, it is much more than rapp.Rapp, as well as grunge are ways of expressing poetry, but are not forms of music themselves alone. One musician could introduce some grunge and rapp elements and create a great piece of music, but this is like Rimsky Kosarkov using some russian militar march isolated rythm in the middle of an opera to give room to the tenor to express himself....or like Adrian Belew playing guitar with the sound of an elephant. This is not a musical element itself (it is only an animal sound) but can be, and it is by Adrian every time he performs it, transformed in music that fits well on a musical composition, but it requires a great talent to achieve this state and many people wont notice this and say that it is pure noise. This last opinion is subjective. The capacity to recognize sincerely this elements as music or forming part of music is purely objective if all considerations regarding liking or disliking are kept asside. You have to be trained in the listening experience excersice to be able to find something good or bad without relation with your preferences, which are purely subjective, to be able to really get this difference (without lies to yourself) . there are a lot of people that see that music is purely emotional. Well, they see only the emotional side. other people, more like musicians have to find the music intelectually interesting in order to be able to like it.Others could find intellectually boring but very good emotionally, unless they hear it under a bad mood, but they may like it for having sex, for example, others just compose something very eclectic and perform this composition with great emotion, that could be an instinctive or an animal emotion or a very spiritualized and "high" love emotion or thought...... . i think that you cannot generalize on this aspect, but i can say that Crim Music is for the brain and the soul, for having sex or for painting or for whatever. For painting i would recommend In the Wake of....or islands....For having Sex, Three of a perfect....or Beat, or Thrack, but just my opinion. It is an objective opinion despite is it not absolute. It is relative, objective and sincere to my thoughts and feelings. Someone else can objectively disagree, but if someone appear and say: Man, Thrack is not for having sex at all!!! this is just for playing tennis, well ...This LAST opinion IS REALLY SUBJECTIVE......and it is ABOLUTE, and false.This is the kind of opinion that could not be ever objective and true, because it is expressed in such ay that it does not give any room for other opinion.....The difference may not appear clear, because it is located internally on the human being as a whole...but it seems to appear clearly by the way it is expressed..........hope to have been at least slightly clear about the matter
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 00:46:13 +0100 From: "Marcus Enochsson" <the_unifaun at hotmail dot com> Subject: Re: KC live in Mexico City
In fact, I think that there has always been distortion. I made a CD and worked intensely with those tracks for a few hours, and noticed how distorted some loud part were. It may be something you don't think of while just listening through it.
>I've recently played this for the first time in several months. The sound >quality appears to have deteriorated remarkably with lots of distortion >that >wasn't there before. Anyone else experienced this problem?
Ahem, just like the case with mr. Fripp, I was convinced that Toby was a person who never makes mistakes. But it seems that the subject lines and messages were quite messed up in the last ET digest. Well, we love you anyway, Toby.
Can't help feeling a bit jealous when reading all the US reviews on ET. I have learned so much about this band since May, when I attended a gig. A concert today would probably be percieved totally different than then.
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 19:42:15 -0500 (EST) From: "Michael J. Bennett" <ac056 at mvcn dot dayton dot oh dot us> Subject: LOG
I have the definitive edition of the League of Gentlemen album God Save the King on cassette, and also have the same album on cd. I've noticed slight differemces, and now someone posted something to the effect that the vinyl version was different as well. Does anyone have any knowledge of the differences between the three?
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 21:28:48 -0500 From: "Dan B." <dandor at erols dot com> Subject: Favorite quote from last week's ET
In Elephant Talk #766, Andrew Fignar Jr. wrote (about R.F.): "I love his playing, but not what he plays." Good one! (explain ??????) Mr. Fignar also said: "He (Steve Vai) did replace Adrian Belew in Zappa's band after all. And to diss him, is to diss Zappa, and Belew himself." Untrue. After Adrian left in '78, Warren Cucurullo joined the band and played guitar on the '79 tour. Vai didn't join Zappa's band until 1980.
Also (beating a dead horse dept.): wasn't Genesis' Seconds Out recorded in Paris on New Year's Eve 76/77? This, of course, except for Cinema Show which was recorded earlier in '76--maybe spring/summer (when Bill Bruford was in the band).
-- "But as far as I know, they may be trying to wrap me in cellophane and sell me; brothers help me, and don't worry about looking at the score." -- Jimi Hendrix ("Somewhere")
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 23:25:36 -0500 From: Bill Fogg <billpenguin at snet dot net> Subject: Sunday night at the Webster, Hartford CT
Hello, fellow Crimophiles
I went to the concert on Sunday night with a friend who wasn't familiar with the band--and he was blown away (as was I)!!
We were standing 3 rows from the stage in front of Trey's rig and from the opening note to the final bow it was a phenomenal show.
They opened with Larks IV/I Have a Dream, which was mindblowing, and I was very surprised to see Fripp smiling throughout. When they came out, the applause was deafening. First Trey came out, then Pat, and when Adrian came out the crowd was even louder. After a minute or so, Adrian held his arm out to the back of the stage to coax Fripp out. Everyone on stage was smiling and obviously having fun. When Fripp walked over to his area, he surveyed the audience. (Which, if you hear the rumors about him, is quite funny--in a good way.)
After they were done tearing into the opening number, they did "Frying Pan", then "Prozakc Blues". After, I believe they went into an improv while Adrian went almost backstage (the ultimate audient placement, perhaps?) and sat by the drums, eventually joining in. This was so different from '95 on the Thrak tour, when Adrian was performing more. The highlight was "Frakctured". I stared at Fripp for almost the entire length of the song and couldn't believe he was playing that quickly. Not surprised, I just stared and shook my head in disbelief(in other words, completely blown away).
I was thouroughly impressed by the performances throughout and I only noticed a few mistakes (during Adrian's solo 3OAPP, he hit a bass note by mistake--still, it was well worth the ovation--and after Adrian's last(?) solo on "Elephant Talk", he almost forgot to change his sound). I'm not complaining---actually, when Adrian went on stage to do the solo thing, he said that the rest of the band left 'cause they weren't paid enough, but he'd play something--at which he started to play "Epitaph" for about 15 seconds before he wondered aloud if he even knew the words.
After he finished 3OAPP, Fripp gave a standing ovation and was visibly humored(he had a big smile--not laughing, just smiling) Anyway, that's all I have to say about it tonight---there may be more later(?)
I am hoping they swing back through on tour and if they don't, I'll just have to wait for the next tour, which I'm going to do anyway.
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 00:06:30 -0500 From: "Tim Foster" <tfoster at fast dot net> Subject: GIG REVIEW: 11/17 Philly
I saw KC at the TLA on Friday night in Philly, and it was just incredible. I was lucky enough to grab a front spot right in front of Adrian (note to Bryan who posted his review in #768-I must have been standing right next to you dude!).
I've seen KC a few other times going back to 1982, but this is the first time I was this close. For once I was more interested in seeing the nuances of the performance as opposed to getting the best sound in the arena, and it was an amazing experience. Others have commented on the music and the playing (which was sensational), so instead I'd like to tell of some of the quirks and subtleties that I saw by virtue of being up front. Please note that while some of what I will relate may be construed as "mistakes", I think they actually spoke a lot to the abilities of the group and genuine fun that they had on stage that night.
On a more serious note, I totally agree with Bryan's post, Thrush was absolutely beautiful (this is my current KC fave). Trey was unreal, one of the more emotional passages of music I can remember. Pat seemed to hang back a bit during the ovations (maybe thats just him, a read in another post that he did the same thing at another venue). To Pat-from one who was there, you were amazing and deserving of the kudos the audience was sending your way! You are indeed the pulse and the drive that burns in the heart of this KC incarnation!!!
Overall, the evening was tremendous fun. Not only did the band dutifully impress (Robert's hands were smoking after Fractured-yeah, OK, it was the powder-but the metaphor is cooler!), but they had tremendous fun. Robert in particular seemed to take great joy in the proceedings, he seems to enjoy watching the others perform as much as we do. A better compliment to your bandmates I cannot imagine...
So many more highlights, but I've gone on long enough. I just hope everyone enjoyed the show as much as the group did! (they seemed to...)