Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #762 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 762 Sunday, 12 November 2000 Today's Topics: GIG BIZ: Toronto show 11/24/00 GIG BIZ: extra NYC Town Hall ticket for sale Paging Pat Bruford & BrandX Gamelan Heavy ConstruKction... Re: Gamelan Audience "Participation" Another version of Cage Daevid Allen & Gamelan Lotsa Heavy ConstruKction? Re: Gong - Crimson Connection(s) Re: Guitar Comparison, Oz tour & odd timing! Re: KC in DC 11/8 9:30Club What I have heard... Bruford/Collins/Brand-X GIG REVIEW: DC second night GIG REVIEW: Wash., DC GIG REVIEW: New Jersey GIG REVIEW: KCDC 11/9 GIG REVIEW: Really pissed at Fripp ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 14:40:55 -0800 From: HOWARD SNYDER Subject: GIG BIZ: Toronto show 11/24/00 I have two tix for the Toronto show 11/24/00, I am really sad that it's impossible for my wife and I to go, but that's how it is. If anybody is interested, please contact me at snyder7 at onebox dot com Will sell at face value Thanks ------------------------------ Date: 10 Nov 2000 17:10:21 EST From: Joseph dot Nagraj dot 98 at Alum dot Dartmouth dot ORG (Joseph Nagraj 98) Subject: GIG BIZ: extra NYC Town Hall ticket for sale it looks like i've got one extra ticket for the Nov 14 Town Hall gig to sell. the seat is in the third row of the orchestra section. i just want back what i paid for it: $52.30 ($45 face + ticketmaster charges) i hope someone finds this offer interesting... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 14:35:48 GMT From: "Dan Ceo" Subject: Paging Pat I just read Pat Mastellotto's diary entry for the Nov. 5 show and I have a a couple of things in response. One, even though the first few orws of the crowd didn't seem to be into it on the first night in Detroit, this particular audient enjoyed himself tremendously! I mean it, I clapped so much that my hands are still sore--I really cheered my head off. Second, I couldn't help but notice the mention in there of a friend he referred to in his entry who comes from Jackson, Mich. I live really close to that town--Brooklyn, Mich. to be precise, which is only a stumble away (ever hear of Michigan International Speedway?). Anyway, I'd just like to say that I'm still applauding the band for a great show and a splendid job. Dan Ceo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 14:38:00 -0000 From: Clive Backham Subject: Bruford & BrandX In ET #759, I had stated that I was 99% sure Bruford had never been in BrandX, but was corrected by a couple of posters in ET #760. I do apologise for my error. I guess Collins and Bruford must have known each other quite well in the late 70's so perhaps it's not surprising. Presumably Bill occupied the percussion seat prior to Morris Pert joining; yet another of Bruford's many temporary gigs after the '74 Crimson break-up. Lucky I didn't claim I was 100% sure :-) Bob Pascarella said: > I'm surprised Clive. A true PotHeadPixie would know that Charles Hayward > was a drummer on "Camembert Electrique" and "Continental Circus" with Pip > Pyle. Huh? This is news to me. Hayward isn't credited on Camembert Electrique, and it sure sounds like Pip throughout. Nobody is credited on Continental Circus, and you're the first person I've ever heard suggest that Pip wasn't the sole drummer on that album. Where do you get this info from? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:10:03 -0600 From: "Chip Orr" Subject: Gamelan I just read Eric Young's post on gamelan ensembles and the November 29 performance of his wife Susan's gamelan at the University of Delaware. I encourage all ETers in the area to attend. I've seen Susan perform with this particular gamelan numerous times and it has always been wonderful. I agree with those who say the 80's Crim has a gamelan influence. Eric graciously offers to make gamelan music available for all who care to listen - take him up on it! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 16:52:23 EST From: PR1955 at aol dot com Subject: Heavy ConstruKction... I just recieved it in todays mail. I just finished all 3 cd's. I will say this......... It is sometimes eerilly chilling just how good they can be. Larks 4/IHAD is the 21st century schizoid masterpiece........Or as my teenager would say "Dis shit is da bomb".......See ya at Town Hall-NYC....... Peace-Love and Cat Food to all....... PJR PS:LIGHTS PLEASE<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 23:39:10 -0500 From: Gamantyo Hendrantoro Subject: Re: Gamelan Eric Young wrote: > Anyhow, at one of the Music For Non-Musicians Seminars, in WV, our good > friend Bill Naylor, who is also in this Gamelan group, had approached > Mr. Fripp about a Gamelan piece (for around twenty-two members that is) > which he had composed. This piece is called "Hammerhead'' and is based > soley around the passages of both Lark's Tongues and Waiting Man. Bill had > written out this piece completely on paper (which does not include notes, > but numbers, for the notes themselves) and had given it to Robert. He soon > got a response in the mail from Mr. Fripp giving his blessing and okay for > this piece! Neat. Neat indeed, although I can't imagine how LTiA and WM could be adapted into gamelan scale. > There is one particular favorite of mine that > has breaks and stop/start percussive dynamics that - so help me God - even > King Crimson would shudder from! Yes, the stop/start dynamics, sudden changes of tempo and mood, virtuosic playing, all of these are typical characteristics of Balinese gamelan compositions. My faves are those composed for gamelan gong kebyar ensemble. An excellent gong kebyar recording that I have is "Music of the Gamelan Gong Kebyar vol. 1" by a group of musicians from STSI Denpasar (available at major online stores like Amazon; I'm sure you already own this one). I heard that the second volume is as good. Probably the most easily located recording, at least in the US, is "Balinese Music in America" by Gamelan Sekar Jaya, a California-based (IIRC) American ensemble, which is more varied in style and also quite good. I hope this post is not too off-topic. Regards, Gamantyo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 09:33:39 -0500 From: "blake Ultranet" Subject: Audience "Participation" Much is noise is tossed about regarding audience behavior during the current tour (photos, yelling during quiet parts, tossing buds at the band, etc.) It brings recollections of last time I attended KC during 95 tour in Boston. I was seated in front of balcony in Orpheum theatre in Boston with two audients screaming "BRUFORD!!!!" during all parts of all songs. After the fourth or fifth number completed, I realized these two would continue their support for Bill at the top of their lungs and right in my ears. Being convinced of their deep regard for (one of) KC's drummers, and realizing I was coming between them and their reason to be at the show, I turned to enthusiastic fans and stated: "Although I have not had an opportunity to hear Crimson in 11 years, I am clearly inconveniencing you by placing myself between you and your hero, even worse, I have positioned my ears directly in front of your screaming voices, thereby jeapardizing the affects of your support for Bruford, I will gladly help you over the front of the balcony so you can more directly support the percussive efforts underway." To which one of the 'supporters' replied: "What the hell are you talking about?" I replied "Let me speak more clearly, this band has not toured in 11 years. Stop yelling in my ear or I will throw you off the balcony." Their support changed from constant screaming of Bruford to applause between nuimbers. Fortunately, BB's drumming did not seem to suffer greatly (or maybe I was not sufficiently a Bruford fan to notice.) 'Till Boston Blake ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 11:45:26 -0600 From: "Loren W. Claypool" Subject: Another version of Cage An excellent acoustic version of Cage is also available on two Adrian Belew solo releases - Belew Prints and Salad Days. Enjoy http://www.theclaypools.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 16:59:11 EST From: MarkJX at aol dot com Subject: Daevid Allen & Gamelan If you haven't heard this, Daevid Allen's project "Twenty Two Meanings" is my favorite. Glissando guitar, biological drums (patting tables, bellies, spoons, etc) and "air-guitar" set to resonate by a circulating fan. Also, there is a Gamelan Ensemble in Denver as well, and they play at Colorado College in Colorado Springs every year. I took my 4 year old daughter to see it and after the show, they let her play the instruments. Very cool and recommended. Music is and always will be more than what the major labels want to admit. "a benevolent presence that so much wishes to be heard....etc..." Mark J. Guitar Circle of Colorado (GCCO) http://members.aol.com/markjx/gccohome.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 17:20:36 EST From: "who what" Subject: Lotsa Heavy ConstruKction? For those who haven't read the booklet enclosed with Heavy ConstruKction or who haven't read it, I mention this excerpt as something worth remarking: "Documentary videos and individually serialized double CD sets will be available for most shows of The ConstuKction of Light 2000 tour." Will the boys be out-doing Pearl Jam with live discs? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 17:34:23 -0800 (PST) From: Lucas Bleicher Subject: Re: Gong - Crimson Connection(s) Peter.K.Geddes wrote: << Bill Bruford was in an early version of Brand X (or so I've heard), whose drum chair was later filled by Gong's Pierre Moerlen. >> Which Brand X albums have them on the drums? I've got the "Unorthodox Behaviour" CD and it's really good. National Health is the band that had Dave Stewart (who played on Bruford's solo CD One Of A Kind) on keyboards, isn't it? How does the band sound? Well, does anyone out there have the 4-CD Gong Family Boxed Set? It's on most internet cd stores for a very low price (19 to 22 dollars). Does it worth it? Lucas Bleicher ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:16:31 +1100 From: "Tony Greig" Subject: Re: Guitar Comparison, Oz tour & odd timing! Hello Crimophiles, It has been a while, but finally I have to respond! In ET 759, Grant Colburn wrote, > "Performer" is a questionable title to give Fripp. He doesn't perform, he > plays guitar, and he probably plays guitar as well as ANY guitarist that > exists today. Could he outplay Vai or Satriani or Van Halen? Probably but > you won't know for sure because I'd guess Fripp has little interest in such > competitive ideas. Yes, Fripp does play guitar! As well as any guitarist that exists today? He plays the guitar as best he can at the given moment! Comparison or competition is really a none event in my book and the absurd comments about other guitarists are really pointless and irrelevant! So pointless and irrelevant that I really should not be drawn into this reply at all, but I cannot resist!There is no comparison or competition going on anywhere! They all do what they do and no doubt enjoy it most of the time. > Chances are though if you asked Vai or Satriani how easy > it would be for them to "cover" Fripp's playing, especially on new works > like TCOL, FraKctured or Lark's IV they'd be a bit stressed! Chances are if you ever mentioned this sort of mindless drivel to either of them, you may get a different response than you can imagine! The above mentioned guitarists are, as most people reading ET would be aware of, very good players indeed! Would they be at all interested in covering Fripp's playing? Maybe to jam along with, use as a practice lesson or even as an exercise etc, who can tell? Would they be stressed about it? It may be easy for them. I mean, it really is a pointless comment! Regarding the Australian tour posts of the last couple of ET's, most Australian fans are well aware of Crimson looking into a possible Oz tour many months ago. As Fripp stated in his diary back then, they were prepared to cover their costs, but not to lose and as air freight prices were too expensive they had to give up on the idea. I imagine the idea was to drop ' downunder' whilst nearby (Japan). Why would they fly out here now when they are not in this immediate area? The Australian dollar was 'cheap' back then and I would imagine it would take more than currency values to lure them from the other side of the planet now! Still, it is a nice thought though, as I was thinking about live Crimson in late October and was a little frustrated at the idea that if it was not for the absurd air freight prices in this country, we could have witnessed a gig or three. Life goes on. Regarding past Bruford timing raves, it all 'feels good to me'. P.S. There isn't anything wrong with Ringo's 4/4! It is a 'feel' isn't it? Cheers, Tony Greig. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 08:20:40 EST From: Termiteac at aol dot com Subject: Re: KC in DC 11/8 9:30Club Yea I saw the beautiful young blonde up in the balcony too. She came in at the beginning of LTIA IV. I know because one of the friends I brought who is 20 years old was up in the spot she was in. He was having a hard time standing. He left his spot and she took it. She was definitely physically affected by the music. My two friends and I walked around outside the club prior to standing in line for 2 hours. We found a cafe at the Howard U bookstore opened and had coffee and chocolate chip cookies. I felt like the neighborhood was more like Thela Hun Gingeet, but the cafe was like Elephant Talk (my 20 year old friend was full of it). I don't think the first Improv, the one after Vrooom was Deception. I think it was Seizure. I thought that the bottle dropped during a quiet moment in the improv but I could be wrong. It seemed like the Improv was lagging when after the bottle dropped, Fripp ignighted and Pat went into a loud rhythmic groove that set things going. It was my fav of the night, but of course I agree FraKctured and LTIA IV were outstanding. I also agree that Adrian's guitar parts were on the most part too low especially on Elephant Talk. He seemed to be more cranked up during his Larks solos. I was about 5 rows back directly in front of Adrian. He definitely smiled a lot during Frying Pan. I thought it was a good venue. I thought that the sound was outstanding. My other friend, a drummer who has never seen KC or even listened to that much liked the sound ... and Pat. Yea there were a lot of young people there and females too. Nice show, appreciative audience. I'm still high. Alan Coyne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 16:13:24 CET From: "Marcus Enochsson" Subject: What I have heard... Hi people, First, thanks to all who so far have visited www.mp3.com/zealous, I hope you enjoy my music. Second, I have heard - and make sure you are seated at the moment - that even the members of King Crimson are human beings like you or me. I had my doubts until some things made me think that this may be true. These are for example Robert Fripp's mentioning in his diary of a hair dryer used for one (and only one) purpose found in the WC of a Japanese hotel. This strongly indicates that mr. Fripp has been into a WC, which was a pasttime I never would have thought R, A, T or P Crimson were into. Other evidence: mr. Fripp evidently was a lousy space bar user two years ago... To miss the space bar 15 times on a diary on 20 lines is quite an admirable effort, IMO. Who else but a HUMAN BEING would write "I have abandonedThe Independent", "Myonly newspaper", "she helped switch on the Christmaslights" and "he'd dropped in to getgas". And this is a phenomena I have noticed several times before. Third, let us for a moment accept the fact that the fab Crimsonites indeed are human beings, wouldn't that mean that they're married to human women? If so, does anyone know if these assumed human women 1) fake a love for KC musiKc 2) really love KC musiKc 3) say outright that they hate KC musiKc, because I. it's KC musiKc and II. they're human women, or 4) the fourth option I suspect that few on this list could shed any light on this, but if, I would be curious to know. And yes, Fripp, sentence me to jail, since I am just curious, which is a great crime... Sincerely, Marcus Crimson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 10:11:44 -0500 From: leslabb at ptd dot net Subject: Bruford/Collins/Brand-X In ET 761 The Following Was Discussed: >>From: Clive Backham >>Subject: Let's clear up the Gong stuff. >> >>I have, and shall always remain, a much bigger Gong fan than Crimson fan. >>So let's sift through the various bits and pieces of info and mis-info >>that appeared in ET#758... >> >>Peter.K.Geddes said: >>>Bill Bruford was in an early version of Brand X (or so I've heard), >>>whose drum chair was later filled by Gong's Pierre Moerlen. >> >>I'm 99% sure Bruford was never in Brand X. That band's original drummer >>was Phil Collins. Later on, Brand X had two main rhythm sections: John >>Giblin/Collins, and Percy Jones/Mike Clarke. When Brand X reformed a few >>years ago the drummer was Frank Katz. Pierre Moerlen toured with Brand X >>for a bit, but never made an album with them. The only official recording >>I know of with Moerlen in Brand X is a couple of bonus live tracks on >>"Manifest Destiny". >Bruford was instrumental in the formation of Brand X, but was never >really in it. IIRC, Collins & Bruford had discussed putting a fusion >band together while Bruford was in Genesis in 1976. I'm not sure as to >why he decided not to be in the band, but you're right the first line-up >has just Collins as the drummer. Brand-X had been around as early as 1974. Phil Collins was not the drummer on the first album, MASQUE. I believe, without checking, that it was Chuck Burgi. Phil did not join the band until the second album, Morrocan Roll. Les -- leslabb at ptd dot net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:31:55 EST From: "Brad Davison" Subject: GIG REVIEW: DC second night One guitarist is a drummer. One guitarist can play complete string pieces. The bassist can sound like he's playing two guitar at once or drums. The drummer is a mad man. The singer sounds like two voices at once. DON'T MISS THIS CONCERT! I wanted to see both nights, but I didn't get around to getting tix for Wed. The Thurs. date opened up last week so it was not very crowded. I'd love to know what the attendance was. It was wonderful. See it! BrewerBrad ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 10:21:57 EST From: Jdmack01 at aol dot com Subject: GIG REVIEW: Wash., DC After waiting 2 1/2 hours for the doors to open, I was extremely privileged to be pushed up against the front of the stage of the 9:30 Club to see KC. I will let others review the show itself. My main comment is that I stood in the wrong spot. I positioned myself between Adrian and Robert. They are the "stars" of the band, right? Wrong. There are no "stars" in the band, and I denied myself the chance to watch Trey upclose. Even from where I was, it was obvious how talented he is, and how Trey is just as deserving of adulation as Adrian and Robert. Anyone who thinks that they miss Tony could not possibly hold that thought after seeing Trey play live. Both musicians are treasures, and comparisons are pointless. I feel lucky to have heard both of them in this lifetime. J. D. Mack DC-ET #19 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 09:39:24 EST From: Beachgoers at aol dot com Subject: GIG REVIEW: New Jersey I'll take this opportunity to de-lurk for a moment and highlight the KC show in Asbury Park. Great show, no flashes,very little smoke, we met Pat, Fripp yelled before Vroom "hey guys this is New Jersey lets rock" or something like that. Overall a great time. By the way the theater was only half sold and no TOAPP. Big B ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:10:35 -0500 From: "baxlap" Subject: GIG REVIEW: KCDC 11/9 The second night in DC was a much better show, even if only about 500-600 people were there. (Tickets for the second show went on sale just a couple weeks ago.) But overall, the mix was better, the set list flowed better, and the improv kicked. Anyway, Belew still had some guitar problems (most notably on Dinosaur and Oyster Soup -- yo Adrian, fix that rig!), but they were less bothersome than the ones he had the night before. Fripp even laughed over the one in Dinosaur. One imbecile yelled out for Sartori in Tangiers during Deception of the Thrush and Fripp stopped that jam to voice annoyance off-mike at some twerp in the front who was yapping. With changes in the set list and one fewer song played (Frying Pan, Prozakc, and 3oPP out, One Time and Oyster Soup in) the show ran about an hour-forty, roughly 10 minutes shorter than the previous night. Set list: Larks Tongues IV/I Have a Dream, Construkction of Light, Red, Thela Hun Ginjeet, Dinosaur, One Time, Improv, Frakctured, Oyster Soup, Elephant Talk. First encore: Vrooom. Second encore: Deception of the Thrush. Third encore: Heroes. Andrew Baxley ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 12:16:40 EST From: RKTreemore at aol dot com Subject: GIG REVIEW: Really pissed at Fripp Despite finding the new Crimson album unlistenable the two times I put it on, I brought an open mind to the first Detroit show. I'm sorry to report that I was not impressed with the band. I found myself saying things that I never thought I'd say at a King Crimson concert, like that I was bored and that it lacked energy. I realize this is a different version of the band and that it's not going to be like the same as the past. That's fine as long as it's interesting, but I found this lineup to be lacking in the qualities I've come to expect from King Crimson. Very disappointing, and very sad. The Majestic is a disgusting pit with poor acoustics, and in this case no seats. Why Fripp chooses to play there I have no idea, after all his rants about the European tour. My wife scammed a few chairs so we'd have a place to sit and rest, but we found ourselves sitting most of the time because there wasn't much interesting to see on stage. Usually at Crimson shows it's a matter of having TOO MUCH to see such that one show is not enough. I've traveled long distances to see this band on many occasions in the past, and never missed a show in Michigan in 20 years. This time I didn't even go to the second show only an hour's drive away; nothing at the first show made me want to go back. I found very little of the new material engaging, while the older material missed the mark. Adrian spent a good deal of time banging on electronic percussion while the others droned on; he was far less lively than in the past. Fripp had a couple interesting parts but it was not enough to carry the load. Trey is a fine musician, very talented, but he simply does not have the presence to hold down that position himself. Pat is a great guy and did a fine job in the last version when there was a second drummer to push him but I'm sorry to say that he's just not up to the task of being the lone drummer in King Crimson. If it's the music that is limiting his play, then the music is to blame. And we know who is responsible for the music, and the band. A good buddy and fellow huge fan of Crimson had the same reaction as me: Fripp's ruined the band. And for what? For his bloody huge ego, that's what. He didn't want to play with Bruford any more, but instead of telling him straight up Fripp creates this huge diversion of "projeckts" that was designed to tire Bill out and make it look like he wasn't available or resigned. A similar kind of thing happened with Tony Levin, although the Fripp clones insist otherwise because his diary is gospel. I'll post a translated interview from Poland next time that will provide some clues that what Robert writes is not the whole picture. Six years of his crazy R&D and Fripp lays a leaden turkey on us. I hope you come to your senses, Bob, and realize that you had a great thing going until your ego became more important than the music. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #762 ********************************