Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #756 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 756 Wednesday, 1 November 2000 Today's Topics: NEWS: smoke machines are no more, plus... GIG BIZ: Need Philly tix / 9:30 Club Opinion a ball of wax, red nightmare in Cleveland, johnsonville brats "smoke" machine fluids 9:30 DC Trio... Pat Mastelottos drumkit ! The Crimson King Heavy ConstruKction; KCTV; Gurdjieff Concert going tips for King Crimson fans and their friends A giant step indeed Fog Juice Cluster vs Kluster 24-bit "Starless And Bible Black" Bruford's Credit On Trio Wetton in Mexico Re: Exiles New Standard Tuning - String gauges GO!!!!!! GIG REVIEW: Gothic GIG REVIEW: 10-21Filmore ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 01:08:31 -0500 From: Toby Howard (ET Moderator) Subject: NEWS: smoke machines are no more, plus... OK, I think we've had enough about smoke machines and what makes them "smoke", so no more posts on the subject, please. Similarly I think the question of Bruford "not playing" on "Trio" has been answered enough. Oh, and *please* add "GIG BIZ:" to the subject line of your post if it's about selling/buying tickets or what material the venue's roof is made of, or whatever. Cheers Toby ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 03:31:50 EST From: DonnonMurray at aol dot com Subject: GIG BIZ: Need Philly tix / 9:30 Club Opinion First and foremost, if anyone has up to four extra tickets for the Friday evening Philladelpia performance, I'll gladly take them. As for the 9:30 Club in DC, I agree with TJ Mathews - it's got a bad rap and for the most part unjustified. It's exactly what it' supposed to be - it's a CLUB - and for the most part- a Rock Club. As in people go there to Rock. They feature a wide variety of music there but never violin concertos, boys choirs or any other type music for which one would normally sit. The crowd they cater to goes to have a good time and mingle with each other before and after the show and during the show they DANCE and actually move to the music. That's what the club, (and more often than not , the music), is for.You can sit on the floor but you can't dance on a chair. As hard as it may be for "prog rock" (whatever that is) fans to believe, lot's of people LIKE to have room so that the music can move their bodies and they can physically react and interact to what they're listening to. Hopefully they do it in a manner that is respectful to others. General admission shows are also nice because if friends purchase their tickets at different times, they can still enjoy a show together. Other than that the 9:30 is great. As far as sightlines go, the stage is highly visible from almost anywhere in the room. Much depends on individual soundmen, but the sound has always been good when I've gone. And the neighborhood isn't NEARLY as dangerous as some seem to want to believe. I' ve been there countless times and always felt safe. To top it off, they have a really decent menu for a rock club, offering a good selection of vegan and vegetarian food. If you've never been there, give it a chance. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 01:08:31 -0500 From: "Timothy W Cox" Subject: a ball of wax, red nightmare in Cleveland, johnsonville brats Well since there has been a bit of an ear-nipping about ear plugs, I will contribute. I have never been a fan of ear plugs, whether for playing or listening. Regardless of their quality, I have always feared there is the potential of missing the most minute sounds that can make a particular moment memorable. However, I have certainly paid the price for my stubbornness. About two years ago I damaged my left ear at a Robin Trower concert. I was in the left balcony, close to stage, and my left ear was turned toward the speakers throughout the event. I knew the show was loud, but I dismissed the levels for Trower's ferocious tone and the halls echo. I left the event without much hearing in the ear and of course when I got to bed there was the internal ringing and silence. It seemed as if the ear was being sealed with earwax. The next morning I had to shake my head and tug the lobe to open the internals. It has been that way ever since and there is a present dullness from that ear. My stubborn side says it was worth it, but common sense says wear earplugs in the future! And no matter how important you feel a Crimson experience is to your infants I would not suggest subjecting them to potential hazards, regardless if they are wearing plugs. Wait until they are old enough to make life changing decisions for themselves. However, I am far from parenthood and don't claim to know better than any of you of the appropriate conduct on such matters. Oh, and the Trower experience didn't keep me from his next tour at the same venue. I merely stood at the rear of the hall (no ear plugs). In ET 754, Bmoore29 wrote: >Now that TCoL has been out for many months and we've all had the opportunity to listen dozens, nay, hundreds of times (not to mention those lucky Crimheads who've seen them perform live and lived to complain about it), what do all of the original quick-to-the-draw nay-sayers think now? It has certainly found it's way onto MY desert island Top Ten.< The album "TCOL" certainly won't be in my desert collection, but some 2000' tour recordings may. We will see come this Saturday in Cleveland! I have heard so many good things about the American tour from you guys that it will be hard to attend without expectations, but my mediocre opinion of the album's dry sound and lyrics has also influenced me negatively. I am looking forward to hearing these pieces in a more intense and powerful setting. I will be driving a few hundred miles in a dysfunctional truck so, if anyone misbehaves (photography etc..) and prevents me from hearing Fractured and other crazed treats, I will relentlessly beat them until their formless body is capable of dripping through the floor cracks!!! And then I will hunt down Fripp and give him a stern thrashing for his selfishness, which ultimately led to the unsatisfaction of my own selfishness. Make no mistake, I am in attendance for blood and it is unmistakably "RED"!!!!!!! On a more positive note, my friend, who will be accompanying me to the show, recently purchased a Johnson Amp. I believe Belew used these on past solo albums and during his last solo tour. They have many built in effects. It may be the "Millennium" model but I'm not sure. Anyhoo, before the Crimson gig I will have a chance to de-flower this cherry. Anyone have comments on the Johnson amps or suggested settings? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 08:10:58 GMT From: "Spear man" Subject: "smoke" machine fluids wrote Karl Wasmuth : >Subject: "smoke" machine fluids >....many houses have shifted over to water-based hazers. (Looking at the bottle on my desk...hmm... no content list, but no handling warnings either. We use LeMaitre Water Base Haze fluid in their H175s and H300's...< I did a search of the LeMaitrefx.com website and under ingredients for various fluids for 'smoke ' found several organic compounds--dipropylene glycol, triethylene glycol, propylene glycol and glycerol (aka glycerine) from Le Maitre. Depending on the formula chosen, the concentrations shown were written like this <70% organic compound >30% water, or <25% organic compound A and < 25% organic compound B >50 % water. The composition was not readily available from the MSDS--so the specific gravity was more telling of the composition. Given the specific gravity of water=1, when one tries to decipher the composition from the MSDS, the ones least water-like, i.e., having greater organic material, one needs to look for the specific gravity greater than 1. From the MSDS's on LeMaitreFx.com's website, typically there were fluids with specific gravities from about 1.05 (at least one lower) to 1.20. I also noticed that when LeMaitre was pressed for exposure limits on said organic compounds the exposure limits quoted were the ACGIH-TLV. And, except for glycerol were 'not available'. This is misleading to a certain degree as there are other agencies with limits, e.g. from NIOSH: >http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/pel88/56-81.html OSHA is establishing an 8-hour TWA limit of 10 mg/m3 (total particulate) and retaining the 5-mg/m3 (respirable particulate) limit for glycerin mist. The Agency concludes that these limits will provide protection against the significant risks of glycerin exposure, which include kidney damage and, perhaps, testicular effects. OSHA finds that these health effects constitute material health impairments, and the Agency intends to monitor the literature on glycerin in the future. http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/pel88/34590-94.html dipropylene glycol methyl ether (DPGME aka dipropylene glycol) Humans exposed to DPGME vapor concentrations at levels between 50 to 2000 ppm experienced eye, nose, and throat irritation before the onset of CNS impairment, which occurred at 1000 ppm in one of two subjects (Stewart, Baretta, Dodd, and Torkelson 1970/Ex. 1-379). In the final rule, OSHA is retaining a PEL of 100 ppm TWA and adding a STEL of 150 ppm for dipropylene glycol methyl ether; the skin notation is retained. The Agency concludes that this combined limit will substantially reduce the significant risks of central nervous system effects and irritation, which constitute material health impairments, that exist when workers are exposed to DPGME for short periods above the 100-ppm PEL.< Although not carcinogenic, certainly not without harm. Also on LeMaitre's website was an article "ANALYSIS AND TOXICOLOGY OF LE MAITRE SMOKE FLUIDS" by Dr. B.A. Colenutt Chemistry Dept, Brunel University, Uxbridge, Middx. UB8 3PH February, 1985". And while it was certainly interesting reading there were in fact a few things that were written by B.A. that were troublesome. First of all, there was an unidentified peak present of approximately 2% that was unidentified in the propylene glycol by a Gas Chromatographic (GC) method. The United States Pharmocopeia (USP) requires for purity by GC that all peaks of greater than or equal to 0.1% be identified and that generally speaking no more than 0.5% extraneous peaks can be present. B.A. admits that in fact this unidentified peak was present at nearly 2%, or as he puts it "a minor component probably representing less than 2% of the total". Wishful thinking perhaps and far from 0.1% to 0.5%. But, being in Middlesex England. B.A. is not bound by the constraints of USP if B.A. were manufacturing in the US. B.A. also states: "It was concluded that the propylene glycol and water were the major components and further tests were carried out on this basis." B.A. basically ignores the minor component. B.A then adds "The primary objective of the analysis was to confirm that the smoke also contained propylene glycol and that no products other than stated, resulted. Two series of tests were carried out. One series examined the smoke as a vapour injected directly into the gas chromatograph and the other tests involved condensing the smoke in a liquid and the subsequent analysis of the resulting solution". Skipping ahead, B.A. writes "Thus although vapour injection was an attractively simple method of determining the concentration of propylene glycol in the smoke it was first necessary to establish that its use did not mask the presence of other compounds. Hence the need to examine condensed samples of smoke". Note he never said what the concentration of propylene glycol was and B.A. once again gives a nod to the potential presence of a minor component--he admits that the first series of tests did not rule out the minor component's presence. B.A. then states "Smoke was condensed by trapping in water. The water was contained in a Dreschel bottle connected to a Factory Inspectorate Mark 1 portable pump. Smoke was drawn from the generator and bubbled through the water at a rate of 500ml. min. -1. Sampling was carried on for 15 minutes after which time the resulting solution was analyzed. The analytical conditions were the same as previously. 10ml injection of the solution were made into the gas chromatogtaph. The only peaks apparent were those resulting from water and propylene glycol. This result suggested that propylene glycol was the only organic compound present and that no decomposition had occurred". B.A. ascertains that the peak he found earlier was not due to decomposition and that the only peaks apparent were those resulting from "water and propylene glycol". On first glance this sounds good, but since B.A. has no idea what the minor peak was other than it was not due to decomposition, B.A. says essentially since B.A. doesn't see it now, it doesn't exist. B.A. didn't analyze the gas above the water for the minor component--it may now be present there instead of in the water. Of course, if B.A. had had access to a GC/MS, B.A may have been able to do Mass Spectroscopy tests on the propylene glycol and would have been able to ID the minor component or not--but with a near 2% presence--an MS could easily see the minor component and most likely ID it. Also, B.A. was testing the finished product--had B.A. asked for a small sample of the lot of propylene glycol used instead, the presence of a minor component may have been readily acknowledged or its presence disproven. The use of NMR and elemental analysis, although not particularly useful for identification, may have been useful for confirming the presence of this contaminant. So then B.A. goes on to discuss the component nature of another product Le Maitre Fluid B--which B.A. states is "glycerin". Immediately, B.A. mentions that "It should be noted that the peaks produced were of poor shape since glycerin is a substance not readily amenable to chromatographic analysis". And proceeds to use chromatography anyway. Skipping down to the discussion section, B.A. states "The results show that there was no measurable decomposition of either propylene glycol or glycerin during the smoke generation process and so only these compounds need to be considered for the toxicology studies. Here he once again ignores the presence of the peak found in the original GC analysis of the first Le Maitre product B.A. tested, since B.A. couldn't identify with the limited tool of GC. A case of the wrong tool for the job. B.A. then goes on to talk about the safety of propylene glycol and glycerin and states "Clearly it would be inadvisable to generate atmospheres containing potentially hazardous substances. The work described above has shown that only a single substance other than water is present in the smoke produced." Untrue--B.A is once again ignoring the minor component. B.A. defines Threshold Limit Value (TLV) and then states "There are not T.L.V. data for every conceivable substance, and neither propylene glycol or glycerin are listed." And "The lack of data cannot be taken to mean that a substance is either completely harmless or highly dangerous, rather that it has not presented a particular industrial problem". That may have been true in 1985 but today there's at least this: For propylene glycol from Fisher Scientific: United Kingdom Occupational Exposure Limits CAS# 57-55-6: OES-United Kingdom, TWA total (vapour and particulates): 150 ppm TWA; 474 mg/m3 TWA; particulates: 10 mg Standard Draize Test: Administration onto the skin (human) = 500 mg/7days (Mild). Standard Draize Test: Administration onto the skin (human) = 104 mg/3 days-Intermittent (Moderate). For glycerine from Fisher Scientific: Exposure Limits +--------------------+-------------------+-------------------+-----------------+ | Chemical Name | ACGIH | NIOSH |OSHA - Final PELs| |--------------------|-------------------|-------------------|-----------------| | Glycerine |10 mg/m3 |no established |total dust: 15 | | | | RELs - see |mg/m3 TWA; | | | |Appendix D |respirable | | | | |fraction: 5 | | | | | mg/m3 TWA | +--------------------+-------------------+-------------------+-----------------+ **** SECTION 12 - ECOLOGICAL INFORMATION **** Ecotoxicity: Cas# 56-81-5: LC50 (96 Hr.) rainbow trout = 50-67 mg/L; Glycerine can be found on the following state right to know lists: Pennsylvania, Minnesota, Massachusetts. United Kingdom Occupational Exposure Limits CAS# 56-81-5: OES-United Kingdom, TWA mist: 10 mg/m3 TWA Canada CAS# 56-81-5 is listed on Canada's DSL/NDSL List. This product does not have a WHMIS classification. CAS# 56-81-5 is not listed on Canada's Ingredient Disclosure List. Exposure Limits CAS# 56-81-5: OEL-AUSTRALIA:TWA 10 mg/m3 OEL-BELGIUM:TWA 10 mg/m3 OEL-FINLAND:TWA 20 mg/m3 OEL-FRANCE:TWA 10 mg/m3 OEL-THE NETHERLANDS:TWA 10 mg/m3 OEL-UNITED KINGDOM:TWA 10 mg/m3 OEL IN BULGARIA, COLOMBIA, JORDAN, KOREA check ACGIH TLV OEL IN NEW ZEALAND, SINGAPORE, VIETNAM check ACGI TLV OSHA Vacated PELs: Glycerine: total dust: 10 mg/m3 TWA; respirable fraction: 5 mg/m3 TWA LD50-LC50 Mixture: 10MG/M3 TLV FOR MIST Health Haz Acute And Chronic: ACUTE: MAY CAUSE SLIGHT, TEMPORARY EYE IRRITATION. CHRONIC: REPEATED EXCESSIVE EXPOSURE MAY CAUSE KIDNEY AND LIVER EFFECTS, AND INCREASED FAT LEVELS IN BLOOD. Respiratory Protection: NIOSH APPROVED RESPIRATOR FOR HEAVY MIST. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 11:53:51 +0100 From: John Sowerby Subject: 9:30 DC Hi All, tj wrote: >But I've grown tired of this "bad part of town" jive. I metro'd down there >just yesterday to as to avoid Ticketmaster getting several dollars and what >is it? It's a black part of town. One guy asked me for change but that >happens everywhere in town and all over the suburbs. In fact crime, if >that's what is so bad, is way down in DC. Do run down buildings make for >evil? I didn't say it was a bad part of town, just that it's not particularly nice. My one experience of the venue was last January for the Fish concert. I went with a friend from the area to post flyers the morning of the gig, and had no problems. However, Fish himself pointed out on stage that he saw some guy surrounded by cops with guns drawn one block from the venue as they drove in, and driving out that night it didn't take much to spot the drug deals and again, a police raid on a house. But then, I could show you parts of London or Hamburg that you would describe the same way. (Not Bayreuth, it's too quiet for anything like that...) I agree, the area looks like it's getting better. I think the Museum next to the Metro stop will do a lot for the area. John. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 11:59:29 +0100 From: John Sowerby Subject: Trio... Interesting that this subject came up, as I'm listening to the Night Watch live CD at the moment. David Cross in the notes talks about: '....we reached this kind of low point..... Then we started to play this happy/ sad little tune which somehow crystallised where we were. Bill was forward of his kit and held his drumsticks folded across his chest throughout. We later called this tune Trio.' John. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 12:50:59 CET From: "Trond Gjellum" Subject: Pat Mastelottos drumkit ! Hi there ! Just surfed in on the DGM homepage and saw a picture of Krimson in Japan 13. october this year. It was a small picture, but I noticed that the drumkit Pat used had a lot of cymbals on it and I think I saw an acoustic drum up there too.I thougt he only used electric drums and cymbals, so I wonder if anyone can supply me with information about Pats recent setup. Best regards Trond Gjellum ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 07:59:13 -0500 From: "Drew W. Eaton" Subject: The Crimson King Carlos Schroder writes: >curiously, buenos aires has a record store called crimson king that >specializes in things crimson (and related musicians). There was a place on US1 in Miami in the late 70's-I don't recall the name-a record store, the entire front of the place was painted in an exact reproduction of the ItCotCK cover. It had to be close to 16-18 ft. square. It made for a rather stunning image. I always wondered what the uninitiated thought as they were driving by. Are there any Miami ETers that recall the name of that place? Drew W. Eaton ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 13:48:10 +0100 From: Jury Jania Subject: Heavy ConstruKction; KCTV; Gurdjieff Hello to everyone! Though I'm a little sad that KCTV doesn't get things done I was really happy to see that HC contains one of the improvs from the Bonn-concert (which I attended). Yippieeh!! Does anyone know where the video on Disc 2 is from? I recently wrote to one of the KCTV-staff (sorry, I forgot the name) and were answered that there are still plans for releasing those concert CDs/videos. Hope they will manage it! The last thing for today: can anyone give me any information (private e-mail, of course) about Gurdjieff, Bennett or something in this context? Is there anything published in german? Yes, and my two cents on Kid A: a remarkable album, but it reminds me more of Robert Wyatt. Hello to Markus, bye-bye to the rest. Jury from Cologne (and no cat for today) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 07:20:33 -0600 From: rex dot fermier at exeloncorp dot com Subject: Concert going tips for King Crimson fans and their friends First, the background: I just attended the Monday, King Crimson concert at the Park West in Chicago. The crowd was very enthusiastic (almost giddy), and generally well behaved with one exception. Although there were no camera flashes Bob did stop playing during the start of the first encore because some over enthusiastic loud mouthed fan kept screaming something at him. The jerk fan was yelling louder than Bob was playing during a very beautiful opening to a P3 song. Bob stopped playing and dropped his arms to his sides, closed his eyes and just slumped down on his stool in frustration. The effect on the audience was an immediate and audible collective gasp! Would Bob walk out? Pat and Trey just stopped and watched Bob to see what was going to happen next. The crowd quieted down in anticipation. After several moments, Bob opened his eyes and started playing with Pat and Trey joining in again. It took a while, but I feel that the energy s-l-o-w-l-y returned to the show. The energy peaked as Trey performed a long beautiful solo that brought the crowd to its feet. Even, pat and Trey stood and applauded Trey's wonderful performance. It was one of the highlights of the show. Now, the tip: Please refrain from screaming at the band members during the quite movements of the show. King Crimson played very softly during several of the songs, building in volume as they went along. This was lost on the Park West audience which launched into applause and cheers as soon as the volume declined, thus drowning out most of the lovely soft passages. WATCH THE BAND! When their hands leave their instruments, there is a good chance that they have finished the song. Try applauding now. If the sound goes down and Adrian and Trey are looking intently at Bob, start listening more intently, you will hear something beautiful. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 11:17:53 -0500 From: "Burton, Richard" Subject: A giant step indeed The recent controversy over various lyrics in "Coda: I have a dream," underscores what I believe to be the true meaning of the song. I do not think Belew is making a statement for or against any of the topics listed. Rather, he is asking the bigger questions like 'What will it take for all mankind to "get along" with one another?' (to quote Rodney King), 'What will it take to realize this dream?' and maybe even 'Is this at all possible?' The list of topics/events just shows where we as humans are at. Each event listed has controversy of some sort associated with it. The song seeks to show that there is controversy and difference of opinion, often with tragic outcomes. I actually think the lyric 'abortion and Kevorkian' is very deep - both deal with the process of life (at opposite ends) and the issues surrounding mankind intervening in that process. Just look at the reaction this caused in a simple newsletter. When one just considers some of the interactions in ET it is easy to understand how giant that step for mankind truly is. But hey, just think how much easier Toby's life would be... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 10:46:11 -0700 From: "ChainClaw" Subject: Fog Juice I was one of the person's involved in the offline conversation with Spearman regarding Fog Juice. My biggest problem with Spearman's argument is that he is comparing Oranges to Apples. He did not find a MSDS for Fog Juice that suited his argument, so he went out and found one for dipropylene glycol. First of all, the properties of a solution are not the same as the individual properties of the ingredients. Second, you will see that dipropylene glycol is not even in Fog Juice. Here is the MSDS for Fog Juice, notice that it is non carcinogenic which is perhaps the issue important to the Cigarette Smoke vs. Fog Juice argument. MARTIN -- FOG JUICE MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET NSN: 680000N067040 Manufacturer's CAGE: MARTX Part No. Indicator: A Part Number/Trade Name: FOG JUICE =========================================================================== General Information =========================================================================== Company's Name: MARTIN Company's Street: 3015 GREENE STREET Company's City: HOLLYWOOD Company's State: FL Company's Country: US Company's Zip Code: 33020 Company's Emerg Ph #: 800-282-3171 Company's Info Ph #: 305-927-3005 Record No. For Safety Entry: 001 Tot Safety Entries This Stk#: 002 Status: SMJ Date MSDS Prepared: 01AUG93 Safety Data Review Date: 07DEC95 MSDS Preparer's Name: JERRY BERMAN Preparer's Company: SAME MSDS Serial Number: CBFGY =========================================================================== Ingredients/Identity Information =========================================================================== Proprietary: NO Ingredient: TRIETHYLENE GLYCOL; (TRI-2-HYDROXYETHYL AMINE) Ingredient Sequence Number: 01 NIOSH (RTECS) Number: YE4550000 CAS Number: 112-27-6 OSHA PEL: N/K (FP N) ACGIH TLV: N/K (FP N) =========================================================================== Physical/Chemical Characteristics =========================================================================== Appearance And Odor: TRANSPARENT LIQUID. Boiling Point: 212F,100C Specific Gravity: 1.042 (H*2O=1) Solubility In Water: COMPLETE =========================================================================== Fire and Explosion Hazard Data =========================================================================== Flash Point: NONE TO BOILING Extinguishing Media: WATER. Special Fire Fighting Proc: USE NIOSH/MSHA APPROVED SCBA & FULL PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT (FP N). Unusual Fire And Expl Hazrds: NONE. =========================================================================== Reactivity Data =========================================================================== Stability: YES Cond To Avoid (Stability): DO NOT EXPOSE TO OPEN FLAMES OR HIGH TEMPERATURES. Materials To Avoid: STRONG ALKALIS, OXIDIZERS. Hazardous Decomp Products: NONE IF ADVERSE CONDITIONS ARE AVOIDED. Hazardous Poly Occur: NO Conditions To Avoid (Poly): NOT RELEVANT. =========================================================================== Health Hazard Data =========================================================================== LD50-LC50 Mixture: NONE SPECIFIED BY MANUFACTURER. Route Of Entry - Inhalation: YES Route Of Entry - Skin: YES Route Of Entry - Ingestion: YES Health Haz Acute And Chronic: INHALATION:MINIMAL EFFECTS BELOW 1000 PPM; DIZZINESS, DROWSINESS AND THROAT IRRITATION AT LEVELS ABOVE 1000 PPM. SKIN CONTACT/ABSORPTION: PROLONGED OR REPEATED CONTACT CAN CAUSE MODERATE IRRITATION, DEFATTING AND DERMATITIS. INGESTION:CAN CAUSE GASTROINTESTINAL IRRITATION, NAUSEA, VOMITING AND DIARRHEA(EFTS OF OVEREXP) Carcinogenicity - NTP: NO Carcinogenicity - IARC: NO Carcinogenicity - OSHA: NO Explanation Carcinogenicity: NOT RELEVANT. Signs/Symptoms Of Overexp: HLTH HAZ:ASPIRATION OF MATERIAL INTO LUNGS CAN CAUSE CHEMICAL PNEUMONITIS. EYES:MAY CAUSE SLIGHT TRANSIENT EYE IRRITATION. Med Cond Aggravated By Exp: NONE SPECIFIED BY MANUFACTURER. Emergency/First Aid Proc: EYES & SKIN:FLUSH EYES WITH H*2O FOR AT LEAST 15 MIN, LIFTING UPPER & LOWER LIDS. GET MED ATTN. WASH EXPOSED SKIN AREAS WITH SOAP & H*2O. INHAL:REMOVE TO FRESH AIR. IF BREATHING IS DIFFICULT, ADMINISTER OXYGEN. IF BREATHING STOPS GIVE ARTIFICIAL RESPIRATION. GET MED ATTN. INGEST:DO NOT INDUCE VOMITING, GET MED ATTN. ASPIRATION OF MATERIAL INTO LUNGS DUE TO VOMIT CAN CAUSE CHEMICAL PNEUMONITIS. =========================================================================== Precautions for Safe Handling and Use =========================================================================== Steps If Matl Released/Spill: CONTAIN SPILL. CLEAN-UP BY ABSORBING OR MOPPING, AND PUT IN CLOSED CONTAINERS FOR DISPOSAL. Neutralizing Agent: NONE SPECIFIED BY MANUFACTURER. Waste Disposal Method: IN ACCORDANCE WITH LOCAL, STATE AND FEDERAL REGULATIONS FOR APPROPRIATE SPILL. Precautions-Handling/Storing: STORE IN A COOL DRY AREA, AWAY FROM SOURCE OF IGNITION AND HEAT. Other Precautions: STEPS TO BE TAKEN IN CASE CONTAINER IS PUNCTURED AND MATERIAL IS RELEASED; CONTAIN SPILL. ABSORB AND DISPOSE PROPERLY. =========================================================================== Control Measures =========================================================================== Respiratory Protection: NIOSH/MSHA APPROVED RESPIRATOR IF NECESSARY. Ventilation: LOCAL EXHAUST. Protective Gloves: NITRILE OR CHEMICAL RESISTANT. Eye Protection: ANSI APPROVED CHEM WORKERS GOGGS (FP N). Other Protective Equipment: EYE WASH FOUNTAIN & DELUGE SHOWER WHICH MEET ANSI DESIGN CRITERIA (FP N). Work Hygienic Practices: NONE SPECIFIED BY MANUFACTURER. Suppl. Safety & Health Data: NONE SPECIFIED BY MANUFACTURER. =========================================================================== Transportation Data =========================================================================== =========================================================================== Disposal Data =========================================================================== =========================================================================== Label Data =========================================================================== Label Required: YES Technical Review Date: 07DEC95 Label Date: 07DEC95 Label Status: G Common Name: FOG JUICE Chronic Hazard: NO Signal Word: CAUTION! Acute Health Hazard-Slight: X Contact Hazard-Slight: X Fire Hazard-None: X Reactivity Hazard-None: X Special Hazard Precautions: ACUTE: INHALATION:MINIMAL EFFECTS BELOW 1000 PPM; DIZZINESS, DROWSINESS AND THROAT IRRITATION AT LEVELS ABOVE 1000 PPM. SKIN CONTACT/ABSORPTION:PROLONGED OR REPEATED CONTACT CAN CAUSE MODERATE IRRITATION, DEFATTING AND DERMATITIS. INGESTION:CAN CAUSE GASTROINTESTINAL IRRITATION, NAUSEA, VOMITING AND DIARRHEA. ASPIRATION OF MATERIAL INTO LUNGS CAN CAUSE CHEMICAL PNEUMONITIS. EYES:SLIGHT TRANSIENT EYE IRRITATION. CHRONIC: NONE SPECIFIED BY MANUFACTURER. Protect Eye: Y Protect Skin: Y Protect Respiratory: Y Label Name: MARTIN Label Street: 3015 GREENE STREET Label City: HOLLYWOOD Label State: FL Label Zip Code: 33020 Label Country: US Label Emergency Number: 800-282-3171 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 13:39:23 -0800 From: PT Subject: Cluster vs Kluster someone asked: Also very enjoyable are the first two, Klopfeichen and Zwei-Osterei when the band's moniker was Kluster. Why did they change the name? Maybe it sounded too socialist or something? ++ check the band members credits on the CDs: Kluster was 3 guys, led by Conrad S, who helped show M and R the ropes, he had been doing it longer at that point. Conrad later went back to solo projects, they continued on as Cluster. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 17:30:00 EST From: "Luigi Giugliano" Subject: 24-bit "Starless And Bible Black" I noticed that all of the 24-bit remasters so far have the lyrics printed inside of the jackets except "Starless And Bible Black", which has prints of the front logos overlaying over one another with no lyrics. Is my copy of "SABB" with no lyrics correct or is it a defect? Luigi Giugliano SCRUTINIZER981 at hotmail dot com "There's no way that what I do can fit within a corporate format. In the United States, radio is a cultural embarrassment. Most of the music that's broadcast is harmful to your mental health." -- FRANK ZAPPA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 19:57:12 -0500 From: "Les B. Labbauf" Subject: Bruford's Credit On Trio Darryl queried the following in ET 752: > 1) Speaking of the '73-'74 24-bit remasters, why is Bruford credited on > the song 'Trio'? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 01:28:15 GMT From: "Jorge Landa" Subject: Wetton in Mexico Hi there: It has been a long time since I wrote. Now I got some good news for mexican Crimheads, John Wetton will be playing on Mexico!!! The show will be on the Salon 21 (lago Andromaco esq. Moliere, Polanco), the Wednesday 23 and the tuesday 24, November. I don't know when the tickets will be available, nor the price, if anybody can mail-me perssonally with the information I'll be grateful. Maybe we can meet there. See ya... [Please, excuse my english] Landa PS. Does anybody remember the e-circles? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 10:37:30 +0100 From: "Markus Gnad" Subject: Re: Exiles Hugh Shiebler wrote... "David Cross's version of "Exiles" Why?" Well, - - because David Cross' 1998 album "Exiles" ranks among the best albums ever made in the world of rock music. - - because David Cross' 1998 album "Exiles" in its Japanese version features A BONUS TRACK of himself and Robert Fripp called DUO - - because David Cross' 1998 album "Exiles" in its Japanese version presents the most darkest and stunning cover artwork of all times - - because David Cross has gathered alot of perfect musicians around him to get the album out: his own band who continues to produce striking metal music, Robert Fripp, John Wetton, Pete Hammill, Pete Sinfield and so on - - because David Cross plays his violin so beautiful on the song "Exiles" that one could cry - - because the song "Exiles" shines as a true highlight of kContratemporary rock music - even in the light of the album masterpiece - - because David Cross is one of the greatest musicians on this earth, and I am still looking for an album with only his plain violin on And, last but not least, it's a shame that on this newsletter we read and talk about EVERY Krim musician and their output and how painful it is that they are no longer in the band, but it takes a good while of time that the name David Cross pops up somewhere in a side note. With respeKct Markus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 06:23:52 -0600 From: Jeff and/or Cynthia Subject: New Standard Tuning - String gauges New standard tuning doesn't get along well with the usual progression of string gauge. Try these: G-1st - .011 E-2nd - .013 A-3rd - .022w D-4th - .032w G-5th - .047w C-6th - .058w the w, of course, signifying wound. - -- Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 04:23:42 -0800 From: Marc J Goodman Subject: GO!!!!!! Listen up. I'm only going to say this once. If there is a show by this band coming to a theatre (or venue) near you don't think about it. Don't believe any bad reviews. They're BS!. Don't have any apprehension. Don't have any expectations. Don't be bummed if there are tunes you think you wanna hear and you don't hear them. Open yourselves up to the inevitable. There is nothing about a single note, beat, noise, soundsc(r)ape, etc. that you will not cream your jeans over. This band live is dope. The shit. Ecstasy. This is a real band. R. Fripp is playing as well if not better than he ever has. Believe me. I've seen this man (lucky me) since the Poseidon era. I purchased ITCOTKC the day it came out in the states without even having heard it, knowing instinctively that it was a masterpiece. I know from whence I speak. So when I say Go See This Band whenever you can and wherever you are, don't waste any energy whining about what you like or don't like about the music you think you may hear them put out on some given day when you may have been not exactly in the mood to hear something challenging. I'm not some die-hard. I have my likes and dislikes just like anyone where this band is concerned through its different permutations and aggregations. I don't feel a need to define or identify any of this at this point. I'm just saying GO!!!!! in case you haven't heard me. Consider yourselves fortunate that you have this opportunity, while many may not. This is an order. This is a plea. I guarantee that everyone on this list will cherish every memory he/she will take away from the experience. Men, bring your women. They will love it too, or they're not worthy or you to begin with. Trust me on this one, too. And on the topic of earplugs, I own and usually carry a very expensive custom-fitted set of these at all times on my person. However, in order to lighten my load, I neglected to transfer said plugs to my pocket in not wanting to wear/carry my "fanny-pack". I'm sure you'll all find some kind of napkin at the concession counters of whatever venues you all wind up at, as I did, and just wad some up and adjust your ears accordingly. This band gets loud. I did have said plugs at the P2 show at the House of Fripp-LAlast year, and was able to stand up against the subs in front of the PA at the front of the stage inches away from Fripp with no pain or ringing in the ears afterward. BTW, the show I am all fired up about enough to spew all this raveage (a word?) was at the House of Fripp-LA, night 2 last week. Any of you out there who attended know what I'm saying, as I have read some of the reviews, and don't expect that all attendees were heard from as yet within this forum. I usually do the lurk thing myself. I have been driven out of lurk mode once again to encourage any of you reading this with doubts or reservations to scrape together the hard-earned funds it takes for many of us to feed this habit any way you can. Y'all won't regret it. Thanks to the band collecively and individually. You were greatly appreciated by myself and my sig-other, Luisa. (I'm pretty sure her beautiful countenance was noticed by the band, and proved to be both an inspiration and a distraction to more than one of you, as we were right up front just to Trey's right and grooving hard along with every well-played/placed note coming at us. I saw the smiles coming off the stage, too.) Please come back soon. Just spreadin' the word....... Oh, and one more thing - all the music coming from all parties involved in the Crimson circle is greatly appreciated. Bring it all on. There aren't too many other bands/artists out there with as much regard for their fans as these people. I know there are some folks out there reading this who really want certain releases, mixes, versions of their favorites, etc. Some are completeists, some new to the game. Hang in there. I think you'll/we'll all get everything we want in time (barring any and all unforeseen holdouts due to circumstances beyond Mr.Fripp's control). And more. There is so much available material out there, what with the club and the ProjeKcts, and other subsets of the band and guest appearances, as well as remasters and reissues that I myself am grateful for each new surprise that comes our way. Again, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. If it seems I'm starting to sound a little out of it, it is 4:20 AM, LA time, and while it is not actually my bedtime yet, it's getting there. G'nite all. Marc J (Goody) Goodman good1 at pacbell dot net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 23:06:35 -0700 From: "Elaine C. Erb" Subject: GIG REVIEW: Gothic Hi All: I'm going to momentarily delurk and answer a few recent threads while I comment on the Denver shows. King Crimson were at Gothic Theatre in Denver for two shows, Friday and Saturday nights. Lucky me, that is the second time in five years they have played on Oct 27! What a great way to usher in my 40s! I always carry earplugs any more but did not use them on Friday. Saturday night I started in earplugs and quickly decided against it. I'm grateful that this is not a band that has to play at the loudest level possible and I give lots of credit to those who do the sound. I decided I would rather cope with the slight roar in the ears for an hour after the show than miss up live music in all its crispness. The Gothic has been renovated since I saw the Cramps there some years back. But the sound quality easily rivals and improves upon that at Boulder's Fox Theatre. Mark J from Colorado Springs and I got to talk to Pat after the Saturday show. He mentioned specifically wanting to play in smaller clubs where the band could get a feel of the audience. Well the audience complied by packing itself in front of the stage. Being in the balcony above we shared many smiles at the attempts to dance to Crimson's polyrhythms. Saturday's perch gave us a perfect view across the stage to Robert, possibly my first time to see him perform in such detail. I was so happy to see most of the audience obeying the no smoking, no flash policy. One man I asked to extinguish his cigarette thanked me as he didn't want to get kicked out of such a show! And I didn't want to see it cut a minute short because of smoking. For me, the highlight of both nights was FraKctured which I have been repeatedly drawn to on the new album. Fripp and Belew are so amazing to watch play with their contrasting natures and styles. But both of them find stunning sounds in those guitars. Fripp's dexterity through FraKctured impresses me the most. I liked Friday's encore with the trio as it was great to watch Pat play with more restraint as Trey and Robert wove some beautiful musical threads. Saturday's show had a bit less of that milder side. But the Saturday Heroes encore was certainly a treat. Sadly KGNU was not the sponsor of this show as we are one of the few stations around who play King Crimson enough for them to be in our charts! So when the representative of the 70s rock station who was there came by I couldn't resist asking when the last time they played King Crimson even was! She didn't have a clue. Of course it's not the same for me to see King Crimson without my favorite bass player but I didn't miss him musically as much as I did with Frame by Frame. Gunn is still solid on this but just has a different approach than Levin. Nor does Trey do any backing vocals for this piece. Bruford's absence most stood out for me in pieces originally done by the double-trio. Pat's drumming is of such intensity that there are seldom moments when the drums need to sound any richer. I'm certainly glad to have seen both nights which were ordered rather differently. Each night offered some treats and I almost even think I get ProzaKc Blues now! And does anyone else get that Beatles flashback when hearing Frying Pan? Many thanks to ET, I feel like I'm with family at Crimson shows now. Big fun, keep coming back for Halloween! < *)))))>>> EC Erb, Music Director KGNU Community Radio Boulder, CO www.kgnu.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 11:41:35 EST From: Hocow at aol dot com Subject: GIG REVIEW: 10-21Filmore Just a few impressions on the final show in San Francisco. I was glad to see all the debate about smoke machines. I thought it was all pot smoke and was disappointed in the audience as I watched the clouds filter the stage lighting. I did see several smoking violations where I was. They would squat down and take a hit. Hey, it's San Francisco. I was also surprised to see Fripp mention that the show had survived a few flashes. I didn't see any. There were early sound level problems. They were a minor distraction during Vroom. The show was front loaded. Early on we got ConstruKction and FraKctured. Both were absolutely amazing. I felt like I had all I need after TCOL. It is such a showcase for the entire band. The studio version does not convey how amazing this is live. Pat's combo acoustic and V-drum set works great. The v-drums are part of a whole percussion palatte instead of feeling gimmicky. The vocal passage is terrific. Like I say, it felt like they could have called it a night at this point and I had my money's worth. FraKCtured was amazing as expected. I almost think the band pushed up the throttle on the fast part but Bobby kept up. It was amazing. Another high point for me was Red. This isn't normally more than a filler tune to me at other shows. Pat plays the hell out of it. The speed and power of his fills are great. You can't see this band live and still consider this the second string rythm section. Conspicuous in its abscence: PozaKc Blues. Its not a fave of mine but I was really looking forward to seeing Belew rip up the frets on this in particular because I really like his solos on the studio version. I was also curious to see what he does with the Hooter Johnson persona. But hey. We did get I Left My Heart In San Francisco. I'm not being sarcastic. It was a gas. He crooned the first line like he was throwing it out as a giggle and paused. I thought that was it. He then went on for a whole verse and a big finish that would make any aging Italian heart throb jealous. Another point of interest: Cage. It's not a joke anymore. It has evolved from being the gag lounge version to being a legitimate (IMHO superior) version. The slower groove works much better than the frantic studio take. The improvs were terrific. As far as I can tell they were not based on any other material as is usually implied on the diaries. Can't wait for the collector's club version some day. Thanks Bill Graham for the fabulous poster. I haven't seen anyone else mention it. They are given at every show so perhaps the locals didn't take much notice. As a hick from Utah I was very impressed. It's dark and moody with a layered colageish design including DNA molecules and pencil sketches reminiscent of Da Vinci's sketch books overlayed with a wash of colors with King Crimson boldly plastered across the top. Although it is Y2K compliant, you still feel a link to all that great psychedelic art from posters from the 60's and 70's. I think if the band was ligned up to autograph it, I wouldn't let them because the poster itself is so cool. Watch ebay. If someone decides to part with it, you will want it. I'm off to frame mine now. Sorry this is late and not well organized but I wanted to throw out a few impressions of the show. Brad Wilmot ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #756 ********************************