Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #749 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 749 Sunday, 22 October 2000 Today's Topics: GIG BIZ: King Crimson in Milwaukee 11/2 GIG BIZ: Park West ticket trade/purchase GIG BIZ: Mastica Jr. Show Next Thursday! BB drumming out of time King Crimson at The Fillmore 10-19-00 Re: Royalties again David Cross and Vaughan Williams Sacred Songs a post about KC's music (what a concept!) Copyrights for remasters new standard tuning Belew with Beatles? ghost members, collectors editions vs collectors club and singles Re: "Fashion" bashing. Bruford and the Beat The "Supper Club" shows in NYC ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 09:25:22 -0500 From: Patrick Logterman Subject: GIG BIZ: King Crimson in Milwaukee 11/2 They are still advertising the Thursday, November 2 show in Milwaukee, leading me to believe that there are still tickets available. Just in case somebody out there wants to take a road trip, to Milwaukee of all places. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 19:01:51 +0000 From: alberto carrasco Subject: GIG BIZ: Park West ticket trade/purchase Midwest ETers... I have one ticket for the Tuesday, October 31, KC Park West show in Chicago that I would like to trade for one ticket to the show the following night, November 1 at the same venue... OR I would be interested in purchasing an additional single ticket for October 31. Also, if anyone has a pair for October 30, I'd be interested in purchasing those as well... Thanks. RocketSauce at postmark dot net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 12:57:10 -0400 From: "Jeffery A. Duke Jr." Subject: GIG BIZ: Mastica Jr. Show Next Thursday! ET'ers, Although I've mentioned it on Krimson News, as well as the Official Mastica website, I wanted to make sure everyone knew about the news of an upcoming Mastica gig. Here's the snip from the Mastica site: "On October 26th, Mastica will be playing at Ruta Maya. For this gig, Mastica friend Branden Harper will be filling in for Pat, and Mastic regular, Bruce, will be doing the keyboards and samples. This all of course with Monkey and GumB, so even though it's Mastica Jr., it's still a full band. Be sure to check out what's guaranteed to be an awesome show, and a whole lotta fun!" There you have it! Be sure to stop by if you are in the area, and give me a review if you see them! Best- Mr. Crimson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 19:45:41 EDT From: DrumSci at aol dot com Subject: BB drumming out of time Just a quick word on Bruford playing out of time. Bill and countless other drummers have been doing this for ages. It is more a stylistic point of jazz drumming than pop, where a straight groove is preferred. Listen to jazz masters like Elvin Jones, Max Roach and others to hear this in action. Rock drummers to listen to who also play jazz and do this are Steve Smith, Michael Shrieve, and Vinnie Calauta. As far as Ade & Bill playing together, Ade's job was to play the straight groove while Bill played on top, around, and through it, creating a sense of tension in the music. So don't worry about Bill's timing, he knows exactly what he's doing. And remember, if it ain't broke, break it and make it better... Michael B ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 00:29:55 -0700 From: "R. Jackson" Subject: King Crimson at The Fillmore 10-19-00 http://www.mediasieve.com/king_crimson_10_19_00.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 10:42:48 +0200 From: masse at geocean dot u-bordeaux dot fr (Laurent MASSE) Subject: Re: Royalties again >I guess that RF must feel very bad about this because - if >I remember correctly - he asks the members of the KCCC >not to sell *any* item which they have purchased through >the KCCC. From my point of view, this goes a little to far. My view on this is a little different. I suppose there's nothing wrong with reselling any KCCC item that you're not satisfied with to anybody interested for a reasonable price. I am quite sure RF's point was: - not having retailers buying multiple copies and selling them in stores, as they were not designed for this; - not having ill-intentioned customers buying multiple copies and reselling them (at a higher price) as rare collectible items (yes, such people do exist) - not having people pressing pirate editions with lesser sound quality at a higher price - knowing these would be far more visible than the non-advertised, web-only official releases, and the club would die. >Concerning KCCC I must admit that I don't quiet under- >stand why it's possible to sell those albums to non-Club- >members in Japan (though boxed), but not in the >rest of the world. Because you can be a club member everywhere in the world except for Japan where mail is practically impossible to operate. For your information, the Pony Canyon editions are overpriced, incomplete and/or edited. For example, Marquee misses Epitaph and 3/4 of Trees, or Jacksonville's Sailors' Tale is 4 mn shorter. All of this on purpose, as the best available compromise to satisfy japanese fans and still keep KCCC items exclusive. >the - let's say - free market. And with Web-trading, there >shouldn't be any proble to, say, survey how many people >would be interested in a certain release and to sell it >to them directly. Isn't this the exact purpose of the KCCC? >a little polemic - I remember that at the time the KCCC in >its old form was founded, you were allowed to spend >your money also for *normal* DGM-products. Later, this >permission was withdrawn. Have there been to many >people who were more interested in spending their >money on non-KCCC-products? Yes, probably, and as KCCC releases are financed through pre-payment, this was probably a mess to operate and compromised the whole thing. >CDs to the audience for 45 DM at concerts (which is - thanks >to Euro - now about 20 Dollars, but was about 23 Dollars >back in June) - knowing that the highest price in the >shops is about 36 DM, and the average price is under >30 DM - is quiet rude. ProjeKct X and YPG to the KCCC (to cite just 2 of them) are not distributed anywhere, so you won't find them at a lower price in stores. The items available at concerts are generally limited appeal products that won't sell that much, but they are not financed through pre-payment contrary to KCCC items, ie they don't know in advance how much they will sell, hence the slightly higher cost. Of course they could reduce the price by choosing not to include any artwork. But, given the choice between an anymous 36 DM CD in an empty jewel box and a 45 DM Heaven and Earth with complete artwork, which one would you go for? Some DGM regular releases - for which distribution deals were concluded - may be found in stores at a lower price than at concerts. Although inevitably causing a financial loss in DGM's camp, distribution deals are a vital compromise to have some market penetration and visibility to the general public. But each time you buy, say Absent Lovers, in stores, you gain 9 DM and DGM loses 9 DM. Yours is the choice, knowing that, in time, DGM may disappear if nobody supports them with these extra 9 DM and that a whole bunch of unmarketable music (in major companies terms) will not see the light of day anymore. High-profile KC releases would still be possible (although with a great deal of compromise from the band) through Virgin, but the rest of the DGM-only catalog (KC archives, ProjeKcts, solo albums, BLUE, CGT, Present Moment, etc...) would sink without trace. Last thing: as Robert told it recently, almost all of the group income on tour is generated through the merch table. Buying a concert ticket is paying the promoter/venue, buying a CD at the merch table is paying the group or whoever plays on the CD. Know who you may be supporting and act in accordance. ___ Laurent Masse ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 08:56:34 EDT From: Noisynoisy at aol dot com Subject: David Cross and Vaughan Williams I had an enquiry from Glenn who asks " Is the violin in Larks Tongues in Aspic 1 based on The Lark Ascending by Ralph Vaughan Williams? ". At the time of recording I don't think that I knew The Lark Ascending. I was seeking to create an open space fresh air moment and the part I created seemed to fit the bill. Years later when I played The Lark Ascending I too was struck by the similarity with that Larks' Tongues Intermezzo passage. It is a very well known piece of music, so it seems likely that I must have heard it before that date but I wasn't consciously referring to it at the time. I think the biggest coincidence is the name. If any one has not bought their's yet, the 30th Anniversary 24-bit Remastered versions of LARKS' TONGUES IN ASPIC, STARLESS AND BIBLE BLACK and RED are available from the Noisy Records website (http://www.noisy.co.uk). These CDs are a Limited Edition and are produced with a special gatefold cover. They are available at #11.99 including FREE DELIVERY to anywhere in the world! You can buy on-line by credit card or by telephone or fax on (44) 20 8922 7254 and all are available autographed by myself (on orders of 2 or more). Very best wishes to you all, David Cross ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 11:16:51 EDT From: MongoBoy at aol dot com Subject: Sacred Songs In ET 746, Kevin ( KB305 at aol dot com) wrote about Daryl Hall's "Sacred Song's": >I wish it were remastered for CD. But I suspect that would not be a highly >profitable undertaking. > >Kevin Kevin, Maybe you caught on to this thread late, but if you review the last few ET's you'll note that it HAS BEEN remastered. In ET 745 "Christina Shiebler" wrote: > The Fripp remastered edition of Daryl Hall's "Sacred Songs" is much clearer > and assertive than the original edition. In particular, many Frippertronics and Fripp > guitar parts, which were pretty deeply embedded in the old version, are now crisp, > distinct, and much more up front in the mix...among other things. and myself & Steve smith also noted: Steve Smith wrote: > As has been mentioned elsewhere before, the 1999 Buddha CD reissue of > 'Sacred Songs' is remastered by Fripp, and includes a brief liner note by > him So check it out Kevin. Yahoo. Mongo. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 20:27:44 EDT From: Scour12345 at aol dot com Subject: a post about KC's music (what a concept!) Hey, here's a brainbuster for you, see if you can follow this one. I've just had vision: Hey all you King Crimson "fans", how about we actually send in posts to the elephant talk newsletter, conversing and celebrating K.C.'s music. It seems to me like this newsletter has transformed into a whiney, boring, self-righteous babble-session about the use of some insignificant "a" word that was used in the "I Have A Dream" song. That's funny, I thought this was a King Crimson enthusiast newsletter. I must have been mistaken. You people (and you know who you are) have truly embodied the truest meaning of the K.C. song "Elephant Talk". Banter, bicker, broo-ha-ha. How about we change the name to the "bitchy, P.C. cliche' newsletter". Its unfortunate that some people out there like to think of themselves as K.C. fans. How pathetic. How about we celebrate Adrian Belew's right to his freedom of speech. How about we celebrate the glorious, beautiful, powerful, music that is King Crimson. Sometimes I have to just sigh and shake my head... the real tragedy here is probably something that Adrian should have included in the lyrics for "I Have A Dream". ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 00:17:51 EDT From: CCol542760 at aol dot com Subject: Copyrights for remasters Hello, this is a response to Herman Zweibel and Sidney Wiener from ET#743 regarding the distribution of remasters by Virgin. I did not feel qualified to jump in at once, but this issue has not been responded on so far, and I think it is extremely important for DGM and Robert Fripp - so I chose to post this, even if it might not be totally accurate. Actually, the whole back catalog until Three of a Perfect Pair was owned by EG. In 1992 EG went bankrupt, resulting in a significant loss of royalties for the artists. I guess this was caused by irresponsible investments in ships, which is alluded to in the Coda to VROOOM, Marine 475, citing names of ships that the money has been spent on. The copyrights went to Virgin. This was the major incident why Robert Fripp started DGM as an example for a record company that does not own the rights of the works of its artists. For the remasters this means that Virgin distributing those is not a matter of choice by Robert Fripp and the other members, but simply the legal status. Also the copyrights of Earthbound and USA are owned by Virgin, which leads the often aired question to Robert Fripp about a reissue ad absurdum. On the other hand, Thrak and The ConstruKction of Light are exclusively licensed to Virgin - the copyrights are owned by the artists. So this has been chosen deliberately, probably because Virgin has by far better distribution capabilities than DGM. Cheers, Carsten Collatz Richardson, Texas ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 04:01:03 -0400 From: mike at duophone dot com (mike) Subject: new standard tuning Does anyone know of any other bands who's guitarist[s] use Fripp's new standard tuning? Mike "this is my signature" Britt http://www.duophone.com/dusk aim : DrFruitGeeks ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 22:15:16 +0200 From: "Markus Gnad" Subject: Belew with Beatles? Good evening Crimologians! I have a question re our Beatlesophile Adrian Belew: Has he actually ever WORKED WITH one of the fab four? (On a side note, Gordon Haskell works with Paul McC-guitarist Robbie McIntosh...) Greetings Your Austrian Master of Disaster Markus ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:19:52 +1000 From: "Keenan, Owen" Subject: ghost members, collectors editions vs collectors club and singles Some quick queries from a debut posting..... 1. I've noticed that KC lyricist Richard Palmer-James (LTiA,SaBB,Red) is traditionally not included in any bio as being a member of KC whilst Peter Sinfield (ItCotCK,ItWoP,Lizard,Islands) is. Is there any reason for this, besides Sinfield being a touring member of the group? Now we're onto it, who the hell is Palmer-James anyway?...Are there any other people who could be counted as 'ghost members' of KC, David Singleton came to mind, any other ideas? 2. Will the Collectors edition series (public releases) continue now that the Collectors Club (member-exclusive releases) is up and running? 3. Any singles available/scheduled from TCoL? Cheers, Owen Keenan, Australia ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 02:17:12 -0600 (CST) From: TIMOTHY GUEGUEN Subject: Re: "Fashion" bashing. > Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 15:59:02 -0500 (CDT) > From: vince > Subject: "Fashion" bashing > > My officemate listens to an "alternative" rock station here in > Austin, Tx. They have a retro hour at noon where they play > crappy MTV hits from the 80s. Well, today someone requested > Bowie's "Fashion". As it played, I readied myself for Fripp's > solo. It never came as this version of the song CUT OUT FRIPP'S > GUITAR SOLOS. What the f? > > I tried to call the station to read them the riot act but no one > awswered. I wonder whose idea it was to make this dumbass-friendly > version of the song? > Sounds like the typical radio station practice of playing shortened versions of songs, presumably both to get more songs on the air and to free up more air time for ads. On one of the local stations here in Saskatoon Pink Floyd's "Money" has the entire second guitar solo chopped out, along with other bits as I remember it, and I've heard other examples as well. Whether radio stations ever do the actual editing themselves(not hard if everything is stored on hard disk) is not something I know. Some edited versions are obviously "radio edits" or "singles" put out by the record company. One of the oddest single versions I've ever heard was of Rush's "Big Money," which had several bars removed from the start of each chorus, leading to a bizarre jerky feel that felt just plain odd. tim gueguen 101867 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 15:16:58 GMT From: "Matt D" Subject: Bruford and the Beat >>Bruford might not play "on" the beat (let's face it ... he rarely >>stays >>in >>the pocket) but he is CERTAINLY keeping time. You're problem is that >> >>you >>just don't know how to count in 7/21! >>Dan Well it would be a problem for anyone considering that 7/21 is a time signature that could never exist! *********************************************************** Matt Deibert Drummer for Spacestation Integration Check out Spacestation Integration MP3's www.mp3.com/SSI *********************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 11:19:00 -0400 From: "Mitchell Pearce" Subject: The "Supper Club" shows in NYC I recently called the aforementioned "Supper Club" earlier this week for details regarding upcoming Krimson shows at the venue and was surprised by the information I received. The shows at the Supper Club have NO SEATING (all standing)??? The gentleman from the place told me that the event is an "outside event" (the hall was "rented" and then tickets sold thru Ticketmaster), but he still was able to provide some information regarding the event. This got me thinking.. I called The Supper Club because it sounded like an IDEAL place to enjoy a King Crimson concert. The place has sit-down tables for dining while enjoying entertainment. Most nights feature ballroom dancing at the venue. This would afford those energetic enough to stand for 2 hours to do so while still affording others to enjoy the show while seated. When you consider that one of the virtues of Krimson is the age-diversity of its audience I find this standing-only venue in NYC to be ridiculous. Seems to me that the promoter had only one thing on his/her mind and that was packing in as many people into the place as possible in order to make a financial windfall. I'd love to hear from others on this. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #749 ********************************