Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #748 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 748 Sunday, 22 October 2000 Today's Topics: GIG BIZ: Park West Tickets Wanted GIG BIZ: One ticket available for KC @ Fillmore Sat. 10/21 Bowie Guitarists Re: Earl Slick? selling used music and video Radiohead's Kid A I Have a Dream sacred songs Sacred Songs Two of a perfect trio? ET745: Re: The Resale of CDs 'chicks' - Bruford's drumming - current lineup? USED CDs Location of Eddy Offord On the Re-sale of CD's "Fashion" bashing Re: The Resale Of CDs Bruford and the Beat Reselling KCCC club KCCC, lyrics, Bill and the recent Krimz'n sound Timoth Cox's recent response In some cases a flash *may* get you "Fractured" Fripp/Belew Collaboration ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 09:25:18 -0500 (CDT) From: David Veldhuizen Subject: GIG BIZ: Park West Tickets Wanted If anyone has extra tickets for sale for any of the Park West Crimsons shows please contact me. Also if anyone knows where i could gets tickets please contact me. Thanks David Veldhuizen veldhuid at msoe dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 15:22:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Zeien Subject: GIG BIZ: One ticket available for KC @ Fillmore Sat. 10/21 I have one extra ticket for KC at the Fillmore in SF Saturday 10/21. Face value, of course. I can also provide a ride up the peninsula if necessary. Robert ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 00:49:54 -0600 (CST) From: TIMOTHY GUEGUEN Subject: Bowie Guitarists > THE YOUNG E.T. READER'S GUIDE TO THE BOWIE AND FRIPP "TRILOGIES" OF THE > LATE SEVENTIES > > The Eno/Bowie "Berlin" Trilogy: > > Low (Earl Slick guitar?) Guitar parts on Low were split between Bowie, Carlos Alomar, Brian Eno, and Ricky Gardiner. Gardiner has a website at http://freespace.virgin.net/ricky.gardiner/ If I'm not mistaken Slick first appeared on record with Bowie on 1984's Tonite. BTW does anyone know what happened to George Murray, Bowie's late 70s bassist? tim gueguen 101867 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 03:12:57 -0400 From: John W Ott Subject: Re: Earl Slick? > - > From: Art Cohen > Subject: Random thoughts > > > THE YOUNG E.T. READER'S GUIDE TO THE BOWIE AND FRIPP "TRILOGIES" OF THE > LATE SEVENTIES > > The Eno/Bowie "Berlin" Trilogy: > > Low (Earl Slick guitar?) > "Heroes" (RF guitar) > Lodger (Ade guitar) > > > --Art No Earl of Slick on Low. You're thinking of the previous studio album Station to Station. Its Ricky Gardener and Carlos Alomar on Low. Earl is working on the new Bowie Album now underway. And is on the bonus disc of the new live Bowie at the Beeb set from the last Bowie european tour. later John DC-ET ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 07:57:12 GMT From: "Spear man" Subject: selling used music and video >If not even the mighty record labels can shut down used record shops (or prevent "regular" record shops from selling used CDs), I doubt that there's much RF or anyone else could do about it. The conventional wisdom is that once you've purchased an album, you're entitled to resell it if you so choose. < check out http://www.eff.org look for the info on SDMI and how the music industry is once again asserting its control over music by licensing 'users/buyers' of music and video and controlling the machines for playback--if they get their way--future reselling and copying will become a thing of the past. Look what they did to DeCSS. --spearman ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 09:30:49 +0100 From: Andreas Schoter Subject: Radiohead's Kid A In #746 TIMOTHY GUEGUEN notes that Radiohead's Kid A has been compared to Autechre. Just to clarify something in case folk are unaware: Thom Yorke has made no secret of the fact that after OK Computer he listened to the entire Warp Records back catalogue. He felt that Radiohead has taken music "sideways" whilst the likes of Autechre and Aphex Twin had really taken it forward. There was an excellent interview with Radiohead in the issue of Q that came out just before the release of Kid A with some interesting descriptiosn of the process of recording Kid A. Andreas ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 09:37:24 +0100 From: Sandy Starr Subject: I Have a Dream Two brief points. 1) This is a KC/RF newsletter, not a political newsletter. Kill the abortion thread. Although I hold strong (pro-choice) views about abortion, I air them in other, more appropriate forums. 2) What _is_ a valid issue for this newsletter is to ask whether it was appropriate for Adrian Belew to introduce political subject matter to a KC song, whether it happens to be abortion or anything else. At the time TCOL came out, I felt strongly that it was not appropriate. I enjoy KC for their music; I couldn't care less what their politics are. But nowadays, I just listen to I Have a Dream as a song and to Belew's words as the equivalent of spook cues on a horror movie soundtrack, and I don't let it bother me. Belew has written other songs (Burned By the Fire We Make) whose underlying sentiments I resent, but hey, big deal, I like most of his music and there's no point dwelling on what I don't like when there's so much more that I do. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 02:38:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Steven Sullivan Subject: sacred songs Kevin wrote: > It sounds to me dated now. It WAS long ago, after all... but some of the > instrumental sounds are pretty run-of-the-mill, there are a lot of 'rockist' > tendencies, and the backing band tends to plod along. (But then, I listen to > it with year 2000 ears...) Of course, I have the Japanese CD, which was > mastered from an LP, and sounds like it. > > The sub-par sound and dated 70's playing do not obscure some truly wonderful > songs, like 'The Farther Away I Am', or 'Why Was It So Easy'. > > I wish it were remastered for CD. But I suspect that would not be a highly > profitable undertaking. > > Kevin 1) what makes you think the Japanese CD was mastered from vinyl? 2) the recent domestic rerelease is a remaster, and includes bonus tracks. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:24:20 +0200 From: "Girard, Serge [JanBe Extern]" Subject: Sacred Songs Hello Hippo's ! Anyone there willing to buy & send me the CD "Sacred Song" by Daryl Hall ? Impossible to get it here... Of course I pay you the costs & packaging etc. Serge, Belgium ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:26:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Ryan Tassone Subject: Two of a perfect trio? I own two of the new KC remasters right now: LTiA and Red. To avoid confusion, I'll refer to the '89 remasters as "Definitive," and the recent ones as "24-bit." The Definitive LTiA had truly disgusting sound quality at times, with fuzz being generated even when nobody was using it and that ever-present hiss during the quiet sections. For this reason, the 24-bit version was a big improvement. Rather than beef up everything with reverb and/or echo, as many engineers like to do when they remaster old bands (eg. Jethro Tull's Anniversary Collection), the entire album has been instead compressed and de-noised, in my opinion a better choice for this intimate work. "Easy Money" was striking in its clarity, especially when it's just Wetton and Fripp during the first verse. A ET-er mentioned the trail of "Talking Drum"'s bird screech at the very beginning of LTiA on the 24-bit edition...I was immediately reminded of the Definitive one, which had the same feature. However, on my 24-bit LTiA, track 6 starts with the guitar riff, nothing else. So it could be one of those "depends on if you bought the needle in the haystack" things. Speaking of such phenomena, my Definitive copy of LTiA did not include the dialogue at the very end, and I in fact have never heard it. Thus, its exclusion from the 24-bit version didn't appear as a shock to me. Red. Well, Red is a different story, because it's a beast of dense structure. The remastering is far less noticable here, because the Definitive release was pretty polished to begin with. The title track sounds more up-front, not terribly different from the in-your-face-ness of Live Groove. "Providence" actually retains quite a bit of hiss, but I'm guessing that was either for effect or because it was an integral part of the master analog tape. I expect Starless and Bible Black will be more akin to Red's 24-bit qualitative differences than to LTiA's. SaBB, however, has a few improvs that have never been remastered in this way before, so it might be interesting to hear how they sound. My favorite part of all this is seeing the original pictures that would later be darkened for the cover of Red. Ryan Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 15:57:59 +0100 From: Nick Loebner Subject: ET745: Re: The Resale of CDs Dan Cooper said: > Not to stir up a whole new can of worms or anything, but I wonder how RF > feels about the recycling of CDs through used CD stores? Each subsequent > time a copy of Discipline, for example, is sold, a new ear hears it for the > first time, but no new royalty is collected by the deserving artist. BTW, > if this is in no way a new thread, forgive me! Subsequent art sales have not historically generated royalties for the artist. This is true of all fields of art. Recent developments in the "Art World" (a legal case IIRC) means artists whose work is sold at auction (eg at Christies or Sotherbys) are entitled to a proportion. Should this apply to music CDs? There's certainly a case for it. However, the implication is that when you buy a subsequent copy of a disc you already own (eg you get the HDCD 24bit, DVD-A, SACD super-go-faster release), you should get a discount because you shouldn't need to license the material again, you only paying for the manufacturing and remastering costs. I am not sure the music industry would prefer this scenario!!! - Nick. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:24:46 -0400 From: ladyduleuc at mindspring dot com Subject: 'chicks' - Bruford's drumming - current lineup? Hello: My first time posting... Waves to .. what was her name.. Steph? in San Francisco, I beleive? asking if other women were reading this list; yes, we are here - ANYhow, I have to toss in my 2 cents about Bill Bruford drumming 'out of time'. No, it isn't an accident. Actually, often he is playing in a syncopated fashion, accenting the weaker beats. Sometimes it's more obscure than that. He is, after all, a jazz style drummer, really, with enough potential power to scare away jazz players :) Think of Bill as a rock drummer, and you're bound to find faults... Listen to his solo albums of the 70's (One Of A Kind, Feels Good To Me), he plays 'slightly out of time' quite a bit. In a very interesting way. Infuriatingly interesting, if you are trying to learn the drums, and predictable 4/4 time bores you silly... Now, for my original thought - can someone please tell me, who is in the lineup of the current tour? Seeing as I have tickets, I'd like to know who I'm hearing besides Fripp! (And don't tease me and tell me Bill will be drumming!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 21:17:03 +0400 From: "Iscander the Aquarius" Subject: USED CDs Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:38:18 -0400 From: Dan Cooper Subject: The Resale of CDs >Not to stir up a whole new can of worms or anything, but I wonder how RF >feels about the recycling of CDs through used CD stores? Each subsequent >time a copy of Discipline, for example, is sold, a new ear hears it for the >first time, but no new royalty is collected by the deserving artist. BTW, >if this is in no way a new thread, forgive me! Well... If KC's loss is money-yes,the gain is one more NEW EAR opened for KC music,and from the point of money-one more new CONSUMER who would definitely buy a BRAND NEW CD sooner or later :)> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:23:16 EDT From: ChalkPie88 at aol dot com Subject: Location of Eddy Offord Hello Chaps, If by any slim chance any of you happen to know where I can get in touch with Eddy Offord (the producer of Yes and E.L.P., not the guy who works at Citibank) either via phone, e-mail, or acoustic mail, that would be really swell. I'm going to ask him (don't laugh) to produce my own band's album which will be recorded circa December in NY - band is called Frogg Cafe (check out www.froggcafe.com for mo' info). We actually cover a Crimson tune off of the Red album and we perform in the NYC/Long Island area. Thanks for the help. Cheers, Frank ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:57:20 -0400 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: On the Re-sale of CD's The simple fact is, you are allowed to re-sell your cd's. What you are not allowed to do is make duplicate copies of them for re-sale (or to dupe a copy for yourself, then sell the original). Hell, suppose you bought an album and didn't like it-- would you even for a minute consider the possibility that the artist might prefer you not take it on down to the local used cd store and try to wrangle a buck or two for the thing? You can sell it, loan it out, lease it out, give it away, auction it off with impunity. As long as you don't create new copies. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 15:59:02 -0500 (CDT) From: vince Subject: "Fashion" bashing My officemate listens to an "alternative" rock station here in Austin, Tx. They have a retro hour at noon where they play crappy MTV hits from the 80s. Well, today someone requested Bowie's "Fashion". As it played, I readied myself for Fripp's solo. It never came as this version of the song CUT OUT FRIPP'S GUITAR SOLOS. What the f? I tried to call the station to read them the riot act but no one awswered. I wonder whose idea it was to make this dumbass-friendly version of the song? -- vince /* Visit the home of the Rancid Tofu Experience */ /* http://www.mp3.com/rancidtofuexperience */ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 22:21:26 +0100 From: "Andrew Dearden" Subject: Re: The Resale Of CDs It might be relevant to point out that Continental Europe, especially France, has long had a system of assigning a portion of the resale price of works of art (paintings etc.) to the original artist. This practice is known as the "droite de suite". The European Union is currently trying to impose this idea upon Britain, which may well undermine Britain's leading position in the art auction market. Of course, to do the same with CDs would be wholly impractical, but the sheer lunacy of an idea has never stood in the EU's way before. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:44:23 -0400 From: Dan Wasser Subject: Bruford and the Beat Bruford might not play "on" the beat (let's face it ... he rarely stays in the pocket) but he is CERTAINLY keeping time. You're problem is that you just don't know how to count in 7/21! Dan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:52:01 EDT From: GenoTT at aol dot com Subject: Reselling >Personally I do quite a bit of shopping at a >second hand place here in Bayreuth, and I've turned up things that I've >liked, somethings I've disliked, and somethings I've liked so much I've >gone and bought huge chunks of their recordings at full price new And I'm fortunate enough to have three shops within walking distance of where I work that sell used CDs for $4-10. It's a wonderful way to add to my collection and try new groups without constantly wondering "gee, that looks good, but is it worth $15..." Incidentally, I first discovered KC (among many other groups I now dearly love) this way. If I like someone enough, then I'll eventually buy some more selections by 'normal' means which will put some royalties in their pockets (in addition to buying concert tickets, etc.). I try not to do this all the time, since it lines the silken pockets of some Shameless Venal Marketing Weasels in the process as well... but it's important to support the artists as much as possible. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:54:58 EDT From: GenoTT at aol dot com Subject: KCCC club >I remember that at the time the KCCC in >its old form was founded, you were allowed to spend >your money also for *normal* DGM-products. Later, this >permission was withdrawn. Have there been to many >people who were more interested in spending their >money on non-KCCC-products? I don't know, but for me personally it's the reason I haven't joined the club. There are at least 3 Club selections I'd gladly pay for, and plenty of other non-KC releases I'd get which would make it worth popping for the whole package, but I wouldn't join for that many KC releases alone. Sorry, DGM. Any other opinions? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 22:03:36 GMT From: "Danny Anderson" Subject: KCCC, lyrics, Bill and the recent Krimz'n sound Hi folks. A couple of quick points: Does anybody know what is hapening with the Hyde Park release or non-release as it may be? The same with USA. Ade's lyrics are Ade's lyrics and whether they reflect his personal viewpoint or fit a concept he is trying to put into a particular song are best found out by questioning Ade as to whether he means what he says in that particular song. In the past he does seem to write on rather personal topics (Indiscipline comes to mind) but then where does Oyster Soup fit in? Some meaning there or word play. As to the newer, harder Crim sound, searching back in some interviews RF did prior to the release of TCoL, he did say that this band was the hardest rocking band since the Wetton, Bruford, et al band. Bill not hitting the beat? This kind of playing around the beat is what makes Bill different and creative and so forth. Isn't this what Bill has always done since meeting Jamie Muir. Isn't >this what pissed RF off about Bill's sense of time in the 1981-84 band? In an interview PM said what RF liked about his drumming was his sense of time. Going into more of a rock oriented band it makes sense that PM is the drummer rather than Bill. Pat is the hammer while Bill is color. All in all, intersting times, eh? Over and out. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 22:14:27 GMT From: "Danny Anderson" Subject: Timoth Cox's recent response Hi folks. Reading Timothy Cox's recent resonse in the last ET Newsletter led to a personal answer to the two questions which seem to come up often enough: 1. How do you describe King Crimson to an uninitiate and 2. (insert your own Ade bashing style question here). Tony Levin stated in an interview that the first thing RF and the band establish is what is the band's sound and that is often more important than the actual songs they come up with. Well, whatever AB brings to the band it is definitely integral to the band's sound as he has been an integral part of three aspects of KC in the last 20 years and that leads to my answer to question one. Actually, Greg Lake said this of the 1969 KC in the Epitaph booklet, that he saw it as "a band without fear." If you listen to any of the albums from the first to the latest (aside from the presence of RF), I think it can be said that this the common thread which runs through each and every Krimz'n. This is a band without fear. Relisten to any of the albums and think it over. It fits big time. Over and out. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 18:33:04 -0500 (EST) From: Adam Levin Subject: In some cases a flash *may* get you "Fractured" From Wall of Sound: Oct. 16 - Don Henley is being sued by a fan who claims that she was smacked on her forehead with a maraca by the ex-Eagle during a concert. According to The Associated Press, Mary Ann Haley, 43, says Henley hit her with the instrument when she attempted to snap a photo of the singer at his Oct. 4 performance in Little Rock, Ark. In a lawsuit filed Friday in Arkansas State Court, Haley states that Henley also gestured in her direction while announcing that he'd appreciate no more flash photography. She is seeking unspecified damages. A maraca may not appear to be a dangerous assault weapon, but Haley certainly doesn't think that the incident is one of Henley's greatest hits. In fact, the lawsuit states that the percussive pummeling caused "highly unpleasant mental reactions, including fright, horror, disappointment, chagrin, worry, disgrace, embarrassment, indignity, ridicule, grief, shame, humiliation, anger, and outrage." Haley also sent a complaint to Pulaski County Prosecutor Larry Jegley, who says that he isn't likely to pursue the case. "That's not the silliest thing I've heard this year," he tells the AP, "but it's definitely in the top 10." -------------- -Adam --- "...if one strives at hearing for the sake of constant virtue, out of seeking liberation from cyclic existence, gradually one becomes a Hearer." - Chandrakirti T h e D a r k A e t h e r P r o j e c t http://www.darkaether.net/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 18:37:53 EDT From: MongoBoy at aol dot com Subject: Fripp/Belew Collaboration In ET 747 Gnad, Markus writes: > e) AND: I know of no FRIPP/BELEW - outer Crim collaboration. Does anyone > know? This is a stretch so, please hold back your fire.... Fripp/Talking Heads - "Fear of Music" - Song: "I Zimbra" Belew/Talking Heads - "Remain in Light"/Tour and subsequent live record: "The Name of this Band is Talking Heads" in which "I Zimbra was performed. Now, back to politics..... Mongo ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #748 ********************************