yErrors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #747 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 747 Thursday, 19 October 2000 Today's Topics: NEWS: The Abortion thread GIG BIZ: NYC Shows GIG BIZ: 2 KC Tix for Denver Available I Have A dream The Resale of CDs BB drumming out of time Chicks and Lyrics re : Abortion & Napalm 1 re : Abortion & Napalm 2 Adrian's alleged abortion stance Old Men Can Dance Re: Raymond Raupers on Abortion and Napalm KC's newly found voice, it's about time! Second Hand Cd sales On Discographies / The Abortion Thread / Conny Plank KC Live Pics Royalties again the resale of CDs Re: tix for park west. Re: Resale of CDs "No Kill I" Re: The Resale of CDs Favre (and a controversial topic) ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 18:45:47 EDT From: thoward at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: NEWS: The Abortion thread As I announced last issue, a reminder that this is the final issue with the abortion thread still active. After this ET the topic is off-limits. As I rarely have time to edit posts, multi-topic posts which refer to the abortion debate will -- I regret -- not make it. Oh -- and can I just remind ETers that if you're posting about gig matters: tickets, meeting up etc, please add GIG BIZ: to your subject line. And when you post a gig review, add GIG REVIEW:. It helps enormously at this end. Cheers Toby ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 22:17:33 EDT From: JasJohns22 at aol dot com Subject: GIG BIZ: NYC Shows i''l be brief longtime listener looking for ticket to any nyc shows thanks for any help or suggestions JasJohns22 at aol dot com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 23:27:17 -0600 From: Jon Lybrook Subject: GIG BIZ: 2 KC Tix for Denver Available Howdy, I have two King Crimson tickets for Saturday night, 10/28 in Denver, either for sale or possibly in exchange for a pair of Friday night tickets. Asking price is their actual cost of $37.50 each. I hate having to sell on the street before the show, so the price is negotiable. Make me an offer. Jon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 18:45:47 EDT From: Hocow at aol dot com Subject: I Have A dream E Talkers, Recent comments on the mention of abortion in "I Have A dream" make me feel I must jump in. First off, this thread is one that should be cut off quickly as those on both sides have strong feelings rooted deeply in religious and political beliefs and can argue their side ad infinitum without moving a person with the opposite belief one iota. This highly charged issue will quickly degenerate into vicious name calling. I do not think the song necessarily makes Belew's beliefs apparent. If I must commit, I would describe myself as pro choice intellectually, but in practice, I would personally think of it as an extreme last resort within my family. As a person who believes abortion should be available I still see the fact that if someone's circumstance is such that killing an unborn child (substitute fetus if you are more comfortable) is their best option then that person is at a difficult crossroad. A small personal tragedy. The lyrics are a mostly tragic shopping list of 20th century events big and small. They were observations made at the end of the century after watching the year end news reports on what shaped the century. In this context I don't think abortion belongs any less than Lennon, Lady Di, Rodney King, or Aids. Musically I would have preferred that the acoustic version was kept and the electric version was instrumental. But I'm not the producer. If you really feel the need to jump in on the abortion issue take a breath and think about if it really is a take that needs to be expressed in this forum before we all start singling each other out as Nazi conservatives or baby killers. Brad Wilmot ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 16:16:40 -0700 From: "Michael Britt" Subject: The Resale of CDs "Not to stir up a whole new can of worms or anything, but I wonder how RF feels about the recycling of CDs through used CD stores? Each subsequent time a copy of Discipline, for example, is sold, a new ear hears it for the first time, but no new royalty is collected by the deserving artist. BTW, if this is in no way a new thread, forgive me!" well for one thing, since I have a lack of the proper funds for purchasing cds (the legal way) the only way I'm going to be able to buy the new [example] Red is if I sell the old one. if I sell the old one: it will be sold to someone who is unable to pay full price or one who is new to KC and not willing to shell out $12 for a disc. Someone who never would've bought a KC disc anyway gets one. The way I look at it, they (kc) do not lose any money. But now, I have a little extra cash, allowing me to run to the nearby record store to pick up the new release. Because of this, they get their money. (I dont make any profit because the earned money goes towards the remaster.) if I don't sell the old one: I'm not going to lie! Ok so I will buy the new one anyway... but not for a REALLY long time. Plus, my old copy of red collects dust. Sorry! Also, some poor human will still not have heard the beautiful voice of Wetton. Repeat the above for every other remaster. If any of you believe that my ideas will be harmful to DGM please respond and give me a better suggestion. I have great respect for this company and actually don't mind giving them my money. mike http://www.duophone.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 16:19:57 -0700 From: "Michael Britt" Subject: BB drumming out of time Did you ever think maybe his monitor volume wasn't loud enough? Playing half of a double-drum part is probably the hardest thing to do correctly if you cannot hear the other guy over your thraking. Maybe you should try it some day. mike http://www.duophone.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 19:35:20 -0400 From: "Timothy W Cox" Subject: Chicks and Lyrics In ET 745 Steph wrote: >Am I the only female that digs King Crimson? Lets hear from some of the chicks out there in the newsletter sometime! Can't wait to see them on Saturday in S.F.! -Stephanie Silk< I believe there will be a sign at the entrance to the San Francisco gig that will clearly state " There will be absolutely no smoking, flash photography, recording devices, OR CHICKS permitted at this event!!!". (just kidding) In response to the recent criticisms of Adrian's lyrics, I totally agree. I have absolutely no problem with his position on issues, but I feel his personal reflections are better suited for his solo material. If I wanted to hear about the depressive issues of the world, in an overt manner, I could simply watch the news or read the paper, but this is certainly NOT why I listen to Crimson! I believe I have stated this view before. However, I appreciate Ade's personal reflections within the context of his solo material. The man is a brilliant musician and songwriter, but this isn't "consistently" obvious with respect to his contributions to Crimson. It may be an inappropriate comparison, but when Wetton was singing someone else's lyrics, even if they were of a personal nature, it was never obvious what the specific subject matter was and rarely came across as sappy or self indulgent. Of course Wetton's uniquely pleasing voice may also have contributed to this. Forgive me if this comes across as Ade bashing. I do enjoy him, but, if you have been reading the diaries, even the Japanese press has overlooked his contributions to the band, which supports my view that Crimson just isn't his niche. Forgive me if the aforementioned has rubbed anyone the wrong way but my ears persuade my opinions. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 02:01:31 GMT From: "Tom Compagnoni" Subject: re : Abortion & Napalm 1 Mark Rehder wrote : - I agree with Tom, but yes,Adrian is obviously anti-choice (I can't use the term pro-life, when it also seems that a majority of pro-lifers [not specifically Adrian] also support the death penalty...). Hey, he's got what, five kids? And yes, folks who believe this way DO treat it as a crime against humanity. Oh well, it's his opinion (and his CD). This doesn't ruin the tune for me anyways, as I think the whole song is tad over-baked, both lyrically and musically. The only interesting stuff is Pat's! Obviously, he (Adrian) has the right to voice his opinion, and to express it through his music if he chooses. I just feel a little saddened that it has to be Crimsos music (Fair enough its my problem not theirs). I have (perhaps unjustifiably) viewed its inclusion on the CD as an endorsement by all 4 members of this attitude towards the issue of abortion. I would veto such a lyric if the lyricist in my band proposed it, and would expect them to exercise the same attitude towards any riffs of mine they had a boggle with. But yeah, its a matter of opinion. In general I think personal politics of this kind are best kept to God fearing, ultra conservative, right wing, bible belting, flag waving goons, but Adrian has showed me that some of those goons can play some mean guitar too. - For end-of-the-world doom and gloom, I'll take Epitaph or Starless any day! Certainly, for end-of-the-world doom and gloom, Starless is hard to beat. The poignant lyrics in the end lose their meaning amongst the tensionihilistic (yeah, I made that up) build up & release from hell. This was the track that got me hooked onto crimson. It was chief amongst my choices for the last-songs-of-the-millennium CD flipping sesh I had at around 11pm 31st December 99, tucked up with my girlfriend in our freezing room of the lovely Mustangi house we were staying in, high up in the Annapurna Himalaya in Nepal where the year was technically according to the local Buddhist calendar 2056! If the world was gonna end, thats where I wanted to be, and thats what I wanted to be doomsdays soundtrack! The moment of our Christian calendars much hyped zero alignment was ultimately a jovial celebration on the roof with our fun-loving hosts serving up local weed & igniting cherry bombs which thundered down the valley and the sky was anything but starless that evening Cheers anyhow, Tom Zumming_bird at hotmail dot com http://www.waxvisual.freeserve.co.uk Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 02:03:55 GMT From: "Tom Compagnoni" Subject: re : Abortion & Napalm 2 -RAYMOND RAUPERS writes : Millions of children have died in abortions, effectively dwarfing the losses of the holocaust and all wars and plagues combined Nice opening line, which electorate is it aimed at? Actually, children dont die from women terminating their pregnancy. Children have nothing to do with abortions in fact. For an explanation of the differences between a foetus and a human being, consult your medical dictionary. Your association of abortion with the holocaust, war & plagues is like Adrians, quite crude and probably more suitable for www.first-testament.com - The practice permeates society and represents an undeniable capacity of the human race The practice represents a womans right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy, a necessary right in a free society. Undeniable capacity? Come again? - KC's accuracy obviously hit a nerve Accuracy? Hmmm, take a listen to Fractured at around 8:07 sounds a bit iffy to me. - ET is home to liberal psychobabblists with zero tolerance for conservative politics - and the odd token member of the right wing, conservative moral majority, with zero tolerance for liberal politics. Therefore KC's lyrical content regarding politics and moral persuasion will likely be far above ET's utilities Well no, its just that some of us find it pretty dodgy to equate women who exercise their rights with holocaust, war & plagues. Its a hard enough decision for a woman to make as it is, the emotional toll it takes is compounded by the thoughtless, institutionalised and outdated opinions some people express. But we are all free to express whatever we like, I respect King Crimsons right to express theirs, incongruous as they in this instance appear. Cheers, Tom Zumming_bird at hotmail dot com http://www.waxvisual.freeserve.co.uk Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 23:42:50 -0400 From: Morgan Kochel Subject: Adrian's alleged abortion stance Mark Rehder's response to Tom Compagnoni: Tom Compagnoni wrote: (snip) "Nobody *likes* abortion, but to include this lyric in a sombre, mournfully sung song - highlighting much of our planets lowest moments in the 20th century - suggests that the singer doesn't only dislike it, but seems to think it is some kind of crime against humanity. This is bible belt talk." Well, I'm glad someone has commented on this. I agree with Tom, but yes, Adrian is obviously anti-choice (I can't use the term pro-life, when it also seems that a majority of pro-lifers [not specifically Adrian] also support the death penalty...). Hey, he's got what, five kids? And yes, folks who believe this way DO treat it as a crime against humanity. Oh well, it's his opinion (and his CD). This doesn't ruin the tune for me anyways, as I think the whole song is tad over-baked, both lyrically and musically. The only interesting stuff is Pat's! For end-of-the-world doom and gloom, I'll take Epitaph or Starless any day! Tommy Kochel's reply to Mark: You've both made a logical fallacy assuming Adrian's stance. His mere use of the word "abortion", even within the context of a host of events which are arguably negative as judged by majority consent, does not in the slightest tell you what his personal views are. If you visit his website, as I did when I first gleaned that his acoustic version of the Larks' Coda was kept off TCOL, you can read the whole story of how he came to pen those lyrics. In short, he was trying to come up with major events of the past century to commemorate an era. After writing for a while, he noticed that what turned up on paper were words of a not so flattering description of what human beings have done with their time. He admits that there have been great achievements, but for him, as for many folks, the negative is what immediately comes to mind, as it is often what is emphasized by the media. So, despite the largely "downer" nature of the lyrics, he decided to go ahead with it. No one can deny that the "abortion issue" has been a big one in the US in recent history. Tommy Kochel's comment (ala Robert Fripp) regarding Mark Rehderand Tom Compagnoni: "I find it hard to take offense at, or be insulted by, a commentary which demonstrates that life without sentience is not only possible but ongoing." - Robert Fripp, 1997, Epitaph boxed set booklet. Tommy Kochel warrguitarist at paonline dot com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 07:15:10 +0100 From: "Harry Dowdell" Subject: Old Men Can Dance John Swowerby asks has some slick DJ remixed KC? Of course, pumping away right now is the 12" Sleepless Dance Mix 7'18" (mixed by Francois Kevorkian) backed by the Instrumental Mix 6'15" (Francois Kevorkian) & the single 3'35" (i.e. edited) version (Bob Clearmountain, who also mixed the album version)) Quoting from frame by frame "Interesting densely throbbing episodic 133-132.2-133 bpm 12" vocal & rhythm workout, rather Visage " (Record Mirror) "As a rule it's against my religion to say anything nice about King Crimson but I find myself having to admit the KC have come up with something gutsy, gritty & full of imagination on this occasion. There's an almost physical texture about the drum and bass lines that's equally pleasing to mind and body. Sometimes even BOF's can cut it, y'know." (Sounds). I remember this being single or dance single of the week, a fact missing from fbf. "This is more like it... modern funk band.." (Melody Maker) Sleepless on ToaPP weighs in at 5'22". I'm sure that the single edit has appeared on compilations but I've never come across the other versions elsewhere. Its a pity that the extended versions didn't appear on fbf. Perhaps they should come out when the next CC release features the 80's band. :) Harry Dowdell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 06:42:45 +0000 From: bass456 at att dot net Subject: Re: Raymond Raupers on Abortion and Napalm "Liberal psychobabblists with zero tolerance for conservative politics."??? I must be reading a different ET than Mr Raupers.I do indeed have zero tolerance for a political philosophy that claims to want government out of our lives yet seeks to force birth on women who would otherwise terminate their pregnancies.I have zero tolerance for a group of politicians who claim to uphold morality while clearly being owned(yes,owned) by the most brutal capitalists in the insurance,tobacco and oil industries.I have less than zero tolerance for right wing scum who would seek to have me,as a taxpaying American,pay for the indoctrination of their children in a belief system which I consider to be toxic to the human spirit(Christianity) under the guise of "school choice".What I don't get is where Mr Raupers got the liberal psychobabblists idea.I've seen no real indication of people's politics in ET.I read it because I enjoy Robert Fripp's music and I find the on line relationship that has developed between him and the fans,enthusiasts and hostile Crimson haters who write in for whatever reason an interesting and sometimes compelling read.The most fascinating part is that those who are most bitchy in tone toward a particular Fripp diary entry tend to go to ET rather than the DGM guestbook.I don't know who the Americans amongst them will be voting for and I don't care.It seems to me that Mr Raupers fits the stereotype of a paranoid right winger who sees one of them Godless Commies behind every corner,at least judging from the correspondence in question. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 19:28:55 -0400 From: "RAYMOND RAUPERS" Subject: KC's newly found voice, it's about time! KC's lyrical content is troublesome for self-proclaimed saviours of would-be starving, unwanted children, and citizens deserving to live without dictation from government over women's bodies. Unfortunately the dictation of liberal government to legislate taxes from my paycheck, forcing me to participate in public funding of abortions doesn't irritate them. The concept of a conservative federal government escapes them entirely. When the concept of personal accountability escapes them, the concept of freedom can't be far behind it. We are what we are because that is what we have chosen to be. And we as the human race become what we are through individual human choice. I'm very pleased that King Crimson has matured to the point of expressing that in their lyrical content. It obviously has significant potential. King Crimson has only discovered it's voice and those that purport to be "open minded" and "non-judgemental" have begun to labor in censoring it. Isn't it time KC's customers grew beyond Elephant-Talk? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 11:06:50 +0200 From: John Sowerby Subject: Second Hand Cd sales >Not to stir up a whole new can of worms or anything, but I wonder how RF >feels about the recycling of CDs through used CD stores? Each subsequent >time a copy of Discipline, for example, is sold, a new ear hears it for the >first time, but no new royalty is collected by the deserving artist. BTW, >if this is in no way a new thread, forgive me! > It's an interesting point. Personally I do quite a bit of shopping at a second hand place here in Bayreuth, and I've turned up things that I've liked, somethings I've disliked, and somethings I've liked so much I've gone and bought huge chunks of their recordings at full price new. KC is one example. I found 'Red' second hand, and have since splashed out for most of the other recordings. I wonder if in the long run, the gains outweigh the losses... John. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 11:28:25 +0200 From: Gnad Markus Subject: On Discographies / The Abortion Thread / Conny Plank Hi all, 1) To make things clear: a) ENO/BOWIE "Trilogy" - Low/Heroes/Lodger, and Outside b) FRIPP/BOWIE: Heroes/Scary Monsters c) BELEW/BOWIE: Stage (and tour)/Lodger, and Sound And Vision tour, and... hehe... Young Lions d) FRIPP Trilogy: Sacred Songs/PG II/Exposure e) AND: I know of no FRIPP/BELEW - outer Crim collaboration. Does anyone know? 2) On the Abortion thread: Well, it may be that Adrian is against abortion, but I believe that the mention of this theme in I Have A Dream, together with all other horrors of the world, comes from the fact that our good and great society simply offers this option! I interpret it that way: This is such a great world. Everything is so beautiful. But... are Columbine, Bosnia, atrocities, Lennon died, abortion - are these "our only options"? Is this really necessary? If mankind is so great and intelligent, why does it come to this? Why aren't there any other ways? I think one doesn't have to be a "pro-life" to say that it's very sad that our society even invented abortion. 3) Ha! Recently was talk about Eno (I think our fellow David V. came up with this, thanks for that) which led in one sentence to the mysterious CONNY PLANK. Hey, I've read this name on a lot of German records (and even on some of the GREAT CARLOS PERON), but I still don't know very much about him/her (?). Anyone got some clues? ThazallfolksnkeepthamusiKcalive Markus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 12:37:32 +0200 From: Gnad Markus Subject: KC Live Pics Ups... I forgot something. Has anyone collected the KC Live Pics that are presented every now and then on the news page of DGM? I believe there have been 4 or 5 since they started but I forgot to save them. Anyone who has them, could you mail them to this address please: thegreatdeceiver at liwest dot at A HUGE THANK YOU! Markus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 13:09:40 +0200 From: Jury Jania Subject: Royalties again Dan Cooper wrote: >Not to stir up a whole new can of worms or anything, but I >wonder how RF >feels about the recycling of CDs through used CD stores? >Each subsequent >time a copy of Discipline, for example, is sold, a new ear >hears it for the >first time, but no new royalty is collected by the deserving artist. I guess that RF must feel very bad about this because - if I remember correctly - he asks the members of the KCCC not to sell *any* item which they have purchased through the KCCC. From my point of view, this goes a little to far. Concerning KCCC I must admit that I don't quiet under- stand why it's possible to sell those albums to non-Club- members in Japan (though boxed), but not in the rest of the world. Also I like to say that for *a lot* of other artists (like Fish or ELP or even Pearl Jam) it is no problem to sell concert-CDs for valuable prices on the - let's say - free market. And with Web-trading, there shouldn't be any proble to, say, survey how many people would be interested in a certain release and to sell it to them directly. Giving an amount of money to a company in advance not knowing if I will ever get my money's worth make my stomach ache. And - to be a a little polemic - I remember that at the time the KCCC in its old form was founded, you were allowed to spend your money also for *normal* DGM-products. Later, this permission was withdrawn. Have there been to many people who were more interested in spending their money on non-KCCC-products? By the way, selling CDs to the audience for 45 DM at concerts (which is - thanks to Euro - now about 20 Dollars, but was about 23 Dollars back in June) - knowing that the highest price in the shops is about 36 DM, and the average price is under 30 DM - is quiet rude. In one of the last newsletters there was a guy who in one paragraph said what he liked to say and in another apologized for having said what he has said. This again was a very good example for the silent smell of hostility in ET. I - again - would like to see that ET would be a forum where everyone can say what he likes without being *burnt* for a so- called unappropriate opinion. Same goes with general- isations: I'm an european fan and I was certainly not angry about the changes in the setlist. It was rather the other way around. Hasn't there once been a thing called Net-iquette? Now, greetings to Markus Big-G (who some time ago said that he would give a statement about why KC - and others - make *gay* music - I would still be interested in that), to Sandy and to Malcolm from Canada (wow, Bowie is really great!). Greetings from Cologne (on a grey cold day) Jury Miaouw! Lucia-the-cat. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 13:41:12 +0200 From: "Girard, Serge [JanBe Extern]" Subject: the resale of CDs In ET #745 Dan Cooper wrote: > Not to stir up a whole new can of worms or anything, but I > wonder how RF feels about the recycling of CDs through used CD > stores? Each subsequent time a copy of Discipline, for > example, is sold, a new ear hears it for the first time, but no new > royalty is collected by the deserving artist. BTW, if this is in no way a > new thread, forgive me! Recycling? I bought *all* KC albums on LP (in the seventies) then bought *all* the same stuff on CD and now *all* the same stuff on CD remastered. I still own all the old stuff but in the meantime I paid royalties etc. *three* times for the same music which I can only listen one at a time. In fact I should get a nice discount for buying the same music... besurebecoolstayhighbyebye, serge ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 08:25:13 -0500 From: "Kevin Simonson" Subject: Re: tix for park west. My APOLOGIES. Ticketmaster on-line was "not behaving properly", and the venue told me it was sold out. I called Ticketmaster, and evidently, the shows AREN'T sold out as of today, anyway. I didn't mean to spook anyone. -Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 10:06:17 -0500 From: Chris Van Valen Subject: Re: Resale of CDs Hi EYMs (& Ws) Dan Cooper said: > >Not to stir up a whole new can of worms or anything, but I wonder how RF >feels about the recycling of CDs through used CD stores? Each subsequent >time a copy of Discipline, for example, is sold, a new ear hears it for the >first time, but no new royalty is collected by the deserving artist. Use this analogy: Person X builds a house and sells it to person Y for an agreed sum. Later, person Y sell the house to person Z for twice that sum. How much of that money goes to person X? Not one penny of a resold CD goes to the record company. Why should the artist be allowed to dip into the pot twice? This is not a legal arguement. Perhaps only an ethical one. I'm sure the HVRL would prefer that his minions buy copies of his offerings as new product so he can put some bread on the table, but in this non-Utopian society, that's not gonna happen. This arguement does not apply to bootlegging or CD-Rs, though. Levin tonight!!! cv If you have an unpleasant nature and dislike people this is no obstacle to work. - J.G. Bennett And it's potato, potato, potato. - Mike Keneally ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 20:41:40 GMT From: "mike mclaughlin" Subject: "No Kill I" Re my last post and it's (startlingly few) responses I never actually thought about the possible bad live sound Crim may have had back then (and me being a so called Musician (go on then have a rip about that if you want)) that would explain slight tempo drifts from Mr Bruford or indeed as many of you so explicitly pointed out Indicipline by it's very purpose was... subject to live changes in timing due to moods. So I will, rather than retaliate, (cause as I've stated I was just voicing an observation not trying to ruin Bill Bruford's name) simply sit back and let you all get it out of your system (I realised the offensive nature of a slur against any member of Crimson before I posted my note I just felt it needed to be aired publicly). I (as I have stated before) have nothing but admiration for the work of KC in all the guises it has appeared in and can offer nothing but high praise to any musician of their skill and intelligence (lets face it they make my band look like the barely skilled carefully shaved monkeys we are). anyway I am currently in the throes of negotiations on a price for my first Stick like instrument (we have no idea what to call it in order to circumvent law suits yet but we'll probably just call it Dave (not for any real reason either)) anyhow I've had far too many posts in here recently I oughtta be letting people who have interesting points to make take up the space I've encroached for the past two weeks. Many thanks for not giving me a total roasting it was never my intention to offend I simply say what I see so that would be siomething like... monitor, keyboard, mouse, cursor, words, typos, aww forget it just play yer guitar (to slightly misquote the most impressive Alex Lifeson (of Rush) solo album currently gracing my PC speakers). Don't I rabbit on a lot though? (subject quoted from an episode of Star Trek I just watched (Devil In The Dark)) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 17:00:00 -0400 From: Jim Bailey Subject: Re: The Resale of CDs >Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:38:18 -0400 >From: Dan Cooper >Subject: The Resale of CDs >In ET #744, GenoTT at aol dot com said: >"I managed to persuade some uninitiated (and unsuspecting) friends to buy >my previous CD copies of Larks' Tongues and Red for $10 each" >Not to stir up a whole new can of worms or anything, but I wonder how RF >feels about the recycling of CDs through used CD stores? Each subsequent >time a copy of Discipline, for example, is sold, a new ear hears it for the >first time, but no new royalty is collected by the deserving artist. BTW, >if this is in no way a new thread, forgive me! A point of distinction is probably in order here. Royalties are collected on PUBLIC PERFORMANCES of a work, whether that be as a live event, or recorded. Revenue from sales of recordings generates a PERCENTAGE of those sales. I may not be one hundred percent accurate on that, or my terminology might be a bit off, but I'm sure it's close enough for the sake of argument. What needs to be pointed out, though, is that the percentage is paid only on the ORIGINAL sale of an item. Once something has been purchased, it becomes the property of the purchaser (referring, of course, to the object itself, not whatever intellectual property may be contained therein). That person then has the right to re-sell it for whatever price they may desire, or that someone else is willing to pay. This may not always be done in ways that seem particularly ethical, but unless any specific laws are being broken, or any other conditions of purchase are being contravened, it's not illegal, and no percentage NEEDS to be paid to the original party (but if you feel particularly guilty...). To put it another way: If I sell my car, I'm not required to send a percentage of that price to Mazda, just because they manufactured it. Same applies to my bicycle, or my refrigerator, or that Trivial Pursuit game I bought in 1988. They are MINE. If I don't want, or need them any more, what am I supposed to do, throw them away? Not a very environmentally friendly option. This reminds me; wasn't Garth Brooks venting his spleen about the re-selling of records a few years back? Didn't make much sense to me back then, either. To use the example of Discipline, as mentioned above, someone may indeed purchase it as a used item, and decide that they like it immensely. It it not, however, the band's entire output, and is actually likely to induce the purchase of new items. There's all sorts of arguments one could use regarding this topic, but I've run out of time so will shut up now. I hope I've at least made my point clear, whether or not anyone agrees with it. Jim Bailey ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 23:15:13 -0400 From: Dave Lane Subject: Favre (and a controversial topic) It does not contain Prism, but I highly recomment Favre's album Window Steps on ECM. Beautiful. One-time Bruford sideman Kenny Wheeler appears on trumpet and flugelhorn. I got mine at Berkshire Record Outlet [http://www.broinc.com] for only $5.99. There are several other ECMs at that price as well. The only problem with BRO is their delivery speed, but that's only a minor quibble. Briefly to the A-word topic, without getting into arguing over which position is right, it's not too surprising that Belew appears to be in the anti camp. He said in the past that his conservative upbringing made him uncomfortable with some of the lyrics he was compelled to sing as part of the Zappa band. --Dave ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #747 ********************************