Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #746 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 746 Wednesday, 18 October 2000 Today's Topics: NEWS: The "abortion" thread GIG BIZ: looking to buy one NYC Town Hall ticket "Earthbound" CD Fripp/Bowie/Eno Re: Bill Bruford's Drumming Re: abortion & napalm? Sacred Songs KC & Radiohead & PT The Krimson's rehersals in Argentina set list Bill Bruford's Drumming Re: Radiohead samples KC? Some more flash information... BB (Bill Bruford; and The Bible Belt) i have a dream/abortion abortion & napalm? Re: Abortion & Napalm US Tour Adrian Belew Psychobabble From Small Acorns... I Have A Dream Lyric / Abortion Random thoughts coda: abortion Favre - Yeti post in ET 743 Exposure ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 16:51:19 -0400 From: Toby Howard (ET Moderator) Subject: NEWS: The "abortion" thread OK, the "abortion" thread will run in this issue of ET, and in the next (#747, which is almost ready to ship), but after that, it's off-topic. So no more posts on this topic please. Cheers Toby ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 16:51:19 -0400 From: Noah Green Subject: GIG BIZ: looking to buy one NYC Town Hall ticket The message says it all. Please contact me at njgreen at interport dot net thanks! noah ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 08:00:47 -0400 From: "Kemp, Guy" Subject: "Earthbound" CD Does anyone know where I can get a copy of "earthbound" on CD for under $40? I have the album, but would like it on CD. Please help! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 07:16:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Kevin Marriott Subject: Fripp/Bowie/Eno >Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 15:42:07 -0400 (EDT) >From: Steven Sullivan >Subject: Fripp/Bowie/Eno >> Date: 10 Oct 00 17:52:46 EDT >> From: James Dusewicz >> Subject: The 'Trilogy' >> >> The Bowie/Eno/Fripp 'trilogy' is: >> >> Low(1977) >> Heroes(1977) >> Lodger(1979) >> >> >> Fripp also appears on Scary Monsters(1980). > >Fripp is only on Heroes and Scary Monsters, not the >other two. > >-S. And Belew of course, plays on Lodger and Stage. Bowie's best stuff. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:04:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Lucas Bleicher Subject: Re: Bill Bruford's Drumming > I'd never noticed before but it is there when you > listen he plays either slightly early or slightly > late. That's what they call "swing" :))))) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 14:13:24 -0400 From: "ccoulterwsc" Subject: Re: abortion & napalm? With regard to Mr. Compagnoni's post (issue 744) in which he is "not particularly enamoured" with the song lyrics containing a reference to abortion interspersed with references to "the holocaust, Hiroshima, napalm, the AIDS epidemic, the killings of the Kennedys & Lennon, the beating of Rodney King and the very sad situations that have occurred in Kosovo, Bosnia, South Africa and Columbine High School": This is not my favourite King Crimson lyric, either. However, in my experience, unlike certain bombastic Billy Joel and REM lyrics, this lyric is spare enough to allow the listener to reflect on each topic and to personally consider its relevance and inclusion in the song. On this level, it obviously succeeds. But, about the abortion inclusion issue: Perhaps a lyricist has a very strong feeling about abortion. Should he not mention it in his music for fear he will offend those who have different beliefs than his own? Will you no longer support his music? Scratch out the offending track or burn your whole collection? Should artists poll their audience regarding content and taboos? And why take issue just with abortion's inclusion in the list? Abortion is obviously extremely tragic for many around the world, whatever one's feelings on the issue. And, though I'm a great admirer of John Lennon's work and of the Kennedy's real estate, honestly, are their tragedies on par with the Holocaust and Hiroshima? Finally, regarding Mr. Compagnoni's statement: >Surely the subject of terrorist attacks on abortion clinics could have constituted a more worthy & fitting phrase in TCOL coda? Surely not. That subject is less controversial. ;o) - Christian Coulter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 14:12:32 EDT From: KB305 at aol dot com Subject: Sacred Songs Sacred Songs was an old favorite of mine. I bought it back-when for the Fripp value, and ended up really enjoying Daryl Hall's voice, once stripped of your typical hit-making-record-producer crap. It's a fine instrument. Fripp did well to let it shine, without decorating it too much. It sounds to me dated now. It WAS long ago, after all... but some of the instrumental sounds are pretty run-of-the-mill, there are a lot of 'rockist' tendencies, and the backing band tends to plod along. (But then, I listen to it with year 2000 ears...) Of course, I have the Japanese CD, which was mastered from an LP, and sounds like it. The sub-par sound and dated 70's playing do not obscure some truly wonderful songs, like 'The Farther Away I Am', or 'Why Was It So Easy'. I wish it were remastered for CD. But I suspect that would not be a highly profitable undertaking. Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:02:07 EDT From: KeithTaber at aol dot com Subject: KC & Radiohead & PT Regarding Justin Weinberg's posting about hearing 'The Talking Drum' in Radiohead's Kid A album (ET744). I had not noticed this (yet), but note that JW also refers to Kid A sounding more like Porcupine Tree. This reminded me of the end of the PT track 'Mo0nloop' which seems to copy the end of the guitar solo from Sailor's Tale. The similarity is so strong that I had assumed this was a deliberate homage to RF - but I may be wrong. (And that Pendragon track that sounds like Floyd's 'Shine On...' is probably just a coincidence too!) Keith Taber ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:10:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Jorge Luis Jimenez Subject: The Krimson's rehersals in Argentina set list Hi guys here is the set list of the rehersals CD: Discipline Vrooom Vrooom (middle section) Indiscipline Elephant talk I think this is a unique recording, you have to listen Fripp being wrong, specially in Discipline, a total mess, it is very funny. Let me know if you guys want to trade it. I am not sure but I think Gunn was late for the rehersals, so "maybe" is a 5 people line up, you really have to listen it and judge it. jljimenezs at rocketmail dot com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 20:27:57 GMT From: et-read at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Mike Dickson) Subject: Bill Bruford's Drumming "mike mclaughlin" wrote... > I'd never noticed before but it is there when you listen he plays > either slightly early or slightly late. Is this actually a criticism? Mick Fleetwood (among others) has virtually made a career out of this effect - drumming a fraction out of time gives the music an 'edgy' quality which is both >extremely< subtle and >extremely< fascinating. I'm sure anyone as technically competent as Bill is well aware of this sort of thing. Mike Dickson, Black Cat Software Factory, Scotland : Mellotron M400 #996 crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk : ET Administrator : Hammond T500 #252302 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 13:31:27 -0600 (CST) From: TIMOTHY GUEGUEN Subject: Re: Radiohead samples KC? > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 08:59:25 -0400 > From: "Justin Weinberg" > Subject: Radiohead samples KC? > > I was listening to Radiohead's new CD (Kid A) when I heard something > strangely familiar. For a second or two I couldn't identify it, but then I > realized I had just heard a snippet of The Talking Drum! > > I backtracked the CD to listen again. Well, this time it sounded like The > Talking Drum, but if it were a sample of it, it was a fairly muddied sample, > mainly the bass line. > > OK. Third listen: probably not a sample, just a coincidence. > > The passage begins at 3:13 of track 7, as the song is beginning to fade out. > > As for the album itself, it's fairly good, but it doesn't live up to the > ridiculous hype ("so experimental," "pushes the envelope," etc.), which must > have been concocted by people completely unfamiliar with anything outside > the Billboard 100. I'm sure there are a lot of people for whom OK Computer was the oddest album in their collection until Kid A came out. How many will find it to their liking is another matter. >It would be very easy to mistake Kid A for a Porcupine > Tree CD (a la The Sky Moves Sideways) with a guest vocalist, if that tells > you anything about its sound and how "revolutionary" it is. (Note: that's > not to slight PT.) > I've seen comparisons to acts like Autechre. Then again such hype isn't limited to Kid A. Some of the cuts on Aphex Twin's I Care Because You Do album sound to me like he had been listening to early Severed Heads at the time. > This isn't the first time I've heard KC in Radiohead. The main riff of > "Airbag" from OK Computer (a great album) is so Red-like I'm surprised Fripp > didn't write it. > > Justin Weinberg > An even better example is "Just" from The Bends. That climbing riff at the ends of the chorus sounds suspiciously like the opening riff from "Red," and the clean toned chords in places make me think of "Fallen Angel." tim gueguen 101867 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 16:22:26 EDT From: LTheDwarf at aol dot com Subject: Some more flash information... Hi Eter's I frequently look and listen the 3 official KC videos (the noise, TOAPP & Live inJapan ). I've noticed there's numerous flashes during the shows, and fortunatelly nobody left the stage before the end :-) (I hope some humour is not yet forbidden here) Fabrice Vaillant -France- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:25:18 -0600 From: "David F. Snyder" Subject: BB (Bill Bruford; and The Bible Belt) > I'm not particularly enamoured by the association of the act of terminating > an unwanted pregnancy with the holocaust, Hiroshima, napalm, the AIDS ... > century - suggests that the singer doesn't only dislike it, but seems to > think it is some kind of crime against humanity. This is bible belt talk. This is a ridiculous inference. Do you also get the feeling that the singer dislikes Kevorkian also? Is AIDS a crime against humanity? Are you able to deduce any other of Belew's opinions from single words? > From: "mike mclaughlin" > Subject: Bill Bruford's Drumming > > This is gonna cause a host of abuse and people trying to explain to me > why ... Judging on content, Mike seems most interested in getting the abuse than in the other half of his post. As far as BB playing out of time, well he if he played out of space also, now that would be somethi... oops! I'm out of time! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 16:27:03 EDT From: Elfinster at aol dot com Subject: i have a dream/abortion i agree with those who are puzzled by belew's lyrics in i have a dream in reference to the abortion issue. i am equally puzzled. perhaps because i do think that while not an easy choice to make, the decision to make it belongs to the woman. interestingly enough, i still have to find a woman who while oppossing abortion condemns another woman's choice on the matter. carlos schroder ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 13:28:47 PDT From: "Chris James Childs Teh-Khwang" Subject: abortion & napalm? I cannot begin to tell you how distressed I am to see the abortion debate enter music newsletter. Abortion is an extrememly provocative issue, with extremely strongly held beliefs on both sides, and we run the risk of having a debate like this dominate the news group. The feelings on both sides of the pro life/pro choice arguement are ones of deeply personal moral choices. Elephant Talk is about King Crimson and Robert Fripp, I think it is safe to assume, that Mr. Belew has made his feelings known about the issue of a woman's right to choose, and I respect that. My own feelings about the issue are best left to the political and theological arena. Cheers, The Chair of the Alpine Tammany ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 13:33:51 -0700 From: "Jason R. Thornton" Subject: Re: Abortion & Napalm "RAYMOND RAUPERS" gave us: >But keep in mind ET is home to liberal psychobabblists >with zero tolerance for conservative politics. I should point out that referring to liberals as "psychobabblists" doesn't necessarily suggest a tolerance for the opinions of left-leaning Elephant Talkers from the right side of the fence, either. If you're going to whine about how your point of view isn't appreciated, it's probably best to do so in a manner which does not make you guilty of the very act you decry. Psychobabble for the day: transference. --Jason "Only the few know the sweetness of the twisted apples." - Sherwood Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:41:16 -0500 From: "Esteban_Gomez_Maqueo_A." Subject: US Tour Hi Crimfolks, Not that I'm trying to speculate but reading the tour dates page on the ET website looks like Tony Levin ends his tour on November 6 in Alexandria, VA. And KC plays Washington November 8. Could there be a possibility of Tony re-joining KC at that point? Esteban ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:55:29 +0100 From: Luis Rey Subject: Adrian Belew Psychobabble > > > "RAYMOND RAUPERS" wrote: > > > >Millions of children have died in abortions, effectively dwarfing the losses > of the holocaust and all wars and plagues combined. The practice permeates > society and represents an undeniable capacity of the human race. KC's > accuracy obviously hit a nerve. Which is an often and admirable goal of a > team of artists. But keep in mind ET is home to liberal psychobabblists > with zero tolerance for conservative politics. Therefore KC's lyrical > content regarding politics and moral persuasion will likely be far above > ET's utilities. Thank God there's still rock and roll where an artist can > appeal to those that care. Bible reading or not.< This is the kind of ignorant pseudo psychobabble that is responsible for so much intolerance and suffering in the world. As you might NOT be aware, every month a woman has thousands of 'abortions' of fertilized eggs that do not get implanted in the uterus. Does that also count as zillions of dead children? Abortion is NOT a birth control practice. It is an emergency operation that hurts women and no woman likes. If a woman goes through something like that, her reasons must be powerful and should be respected to the full. Do you prefer unwanted , poor or abused children? Or maybe overpopulation and starvation? Is that Sacred Life? The main people responsible for abortions are the churches and other institutions that are actually against safe birth control practices (including condoms!). So there: the Pope is a mass murderer that surpasses any Hitler. Period. I'm sure you will agree to this at least. Anti abortion people have a very low concept of what a human being really is... a bundle of cells inside a woman with the ppotential of becoming human is more sacred than anything... these people are also the first ones to defen the death penalty. As the Spanish Fascists say: "Abortion NO. Being born is sacred, Life is sacred... we'll kill them after!" Sacredness of life? Laughable. And no. this is not the start of a discussion. END. My excuses for the non-musical parenthesis. Luis Rey ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 16:58:08 -0400 From: Ted White Subject: From Small Acorns... In ET 475, Raymond Raupers states dogmatically: "Millions of children have died in abortions, effectively dwarfing the losses of the holocaust and all wars and plagues combined. The practice permeates society and represents an undeniable capacity of the human race. KC's accuracy obviously hit a nerve. Which is an often and admirable goal of a team of artists. But keep in mind ET is home to liberal psychobabblists with zero tolerance for conservative politics. Therefore KC's lyrical content regarding politics and moral persuasion will likely be far above ET's utilities. Thank God there's still rock and roll where an artist can appeal to those that care. Bible reading or not." Sorry, Raymond, but *no* "children" have *ever* "died in abortions." Abortion is a means of terminating an unborn fetus, at best a *potential* child. Think of it this way: oak trees make acorns. One oak tree will make hundreds of acorns in one season. Each acorn has the *potential* to be buried (by a squirrel, perhaps) and to sprout into the beginnings of a new oak tree, a sapling. But: an acorn is *not* an oak tree. Stepping on and smashing an acorn is not the same thing as chopping down an oak tree. The human fetus is a *potential* living human being. But it is *not* (yet) a living human being. It cannot exist outside the womb. Women who have become pregnant may spontaneously abort ("miscarry") without any outside intervention. Typically this occurs when a fetus is not viable (for reasons including genetic defects). It is estimated that the number of spontaneous abortions -- that is, natural incidents of "miscarriages" -- is three to ten times the number of induced abortions. And this has been true over the entire history of the human race. Nature is both fecund and given to mutations. And this leads to an overabundance of potential life, as well as non-viable mutations (which spontaneously abort). Some humans have built religions around this fecundity of life. Some of those religions believe that even *sperm* should never be "wasted" on non-procreative activities, and they have sanctified "life." But death is the inevitable companion to life. Without exception, we will all die. And life, when its growth is unchecked, becomes cancer. We humans are overpopulating the planet, causing massive slums, the growth of disease, and the plundering of natural resources. We must either hold ourselves in check or suffer the consequences of plagues and worse. One of the world's major religions has set itself in opposition to *all* forms of population control, from birth control to abortion -- in an apparently cynical policy designed to increase the numbers of its "faithful." A true "conservative" would seek to conserve our planet and our species. Current political "conservatives" have a very different agenda. Is ET "home to liberal psychobabblists with zero tolerance for conservative politics"? I'm more inclined to see it as home to half-baked fanboys with a wide variety of political opinions, some of which are not well thought out. Raymond appears to be among them. --TW (Dr P) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 17:07:49 -0400 From: "Justin Weinberg" Subject: I Have A Dream Lyric / Abortion No matter your position on the legality of abortion, you can still see how "abortion" fits in with the rest of the lyrics of "I Have a Dream." For the people who think abortion should be illegal, the fit is easy. These people tend to see abortion as the murder of innocents, and that is a tragedy, just like all of the other tragedies listed. For the people who think abortion should be legal, the fit is indirect, but no less real. For while it may be better in many ways (according to pro-choice folks) that abortion be legal, there is usually still something tragic about the circumstances that lead to abortion. For example, it is tragic that the persons involved in conception were not able to act responsibly to avoid an unwanted pregnancy, and that there seems to be so much of this kind of irresponsibility. It is tragic to be in the kind of situation in which one's best option is to get an abortion--this is not an easy choice, one usually made in difficult times. And there are many people who think there is something morally wrong with abortion itself, at least something sad about it, even if they do not support its prohibition. (The same kind of point could be made about the legality of euthanasia and the "Kevorkian" line of the song.) ET isn't a political forum, and the above is not an argument for or argainst abortion. It is simply an attempt to provide a generous interpretation of Adrian's lyrics in "I Have a Dream"--a very sad song, no matter what one's politics. Justin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 17:03:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Art Cohen Subject: Random thoughts Greetings, hippies; * Thanks to whoever brought up abortion. It really had been too quiet around here, with far too much KC-related content per issue. * Someone wrote: >Not to stir up a whole new can of worms or anything, but I wonder how RF >feels about the recycling of CDs through used CD stores? If not even the mighty record labels can shut down used record shops (or prevent "regular" record shops from selling used CDs), I doubt that there's much RF or anyone else could do about it. The conventional wisdom is that once you've purchased an album, you're entitled to resell it if you so choose. The artist has been paid for the original purchase. The Conventional Wisdom may be wrong in RF's opinion, but I'm sure that if any record label could retain *more* rights to their recordings than they do already, they surely would. * I picked up the three new re-masters today. What can I say, I'm a sucker for those mini-LP sleeves, and I've never owned any of these on CD before (although I did spring for "LTIA" in both cassette and LP format). The packaging is, as usual, very nice (and I'm glad to see that they remembered to include the spot of red on the back cover of "Red" that somehow escaped EG's graphics department during production of the LP "Collectors Editions" in the 80s). As someone else mentioned, I don't recall ever seeing a gatefold version of "Red" before, but I guess they needed somewhere to put the scrapbook. On first glance, the booklets in these three albums seem to have more complete articles than the first batch (i.e. fewer articles cut off mid-stream by the 'scrapbook' layout), but that might just be my imagination. But... *why* have they stuck with that pink color on the CDs themselves? Ugh. Ugly and hard to read. Sonically, well, I've never owned CD copies of these (or any pre-VROOOM) KC albums before, so it's hard to compare. They definitely sound better than the "Collectors Edition" LPs. Disappointing that the snippet of dialogue from the end of LTIAII is cut, though. Especially since they went to the trouble of restoring the orchestra tune-up to "Islands". It's a small thing, but the talking at the end of "LTIA" seems more an integral part of the song (than the orchestra on the previous album), sort of like the count-in at the beginning of "Revolver". The mastering is also a little odd in that, for example, when you skip to the beginning of LTIAII, you hear a tiny bit (less than a second) of the screaming larks from the previous track. Same with the transition from "Great Deceiver" into "Lament". Could this just be a result of the CD-ROM drive I'm using to listen to them on at the moment? Either way, it's no big deal, obviously, but it seems a little bit sloppy, considering that these discs are supposed to be more "definitive" than the "Definitive" versions put out a few years back. * Finally, please cut and save the following "cheat sheet" for future reference: THE YOUNG E.T. READER'S GUIDE TO THE BOWIE AND FRIPP "TRILOGIES" OF THE LATE SEVENTIES The Eno/Bowie "Berlin" Trilogy: Low (Earl Slick guitar?) "Heroes" (RF guitar) Lodger (Ade guitar) Robert Fripp's "MOR" trilogy: Peter Gabriel (2d album) Daryl Hall, Sacred Songs (delayed by dinosaurs) Robert Fripp, Exposure (all three produced by RF) Hope this helps to clear things up. --Art ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 17:11:31 -0400 From: Noah Green Subject: coda: abortion I have this feeling that this thread could be on the fast track to stoppage, and I certainly respect the moderator's decision if that is the case (hopefully I will make it in under the closing gate!) Anyway I just wanted to say that while I am staunchly pro-choice, the lyric did not phase me at all when I heard it in the song. In fact, I didn't really notice it as being out of place in the list. I think that's because anyway you look at the topic - from the pro-life point of view of children possibly dying, to the pro-choice point of view of restricted freedom, sexism, and doctors definitely dying - it is not a pretty picture. Not to mention the agony of actually having to go through with it, which I as a man will never understand. Even a pro-choicer like me can see that there is a lot of grief loaded into that word, from any angle, and I think it quite rightfully belongs in the list in this (in my opinion) very good song. Art can be very evocative when it is ambivalent. Oh yeah, and I almost forgot: Adrian has the freedom to write and sing anything he wants! How's that for "liberal psychobabble?" "Chit chat," noah ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 14:35:44 -0700 From: "ChainClaw" Subject: Favre - Yeti post in ET 743 This post in response to Jan Geerts post requesting recommendations on Pierre Favre's works. I would start off with Souffles (Intakt CD 049), a very solid effort all around. as for Yeti - were you referring to the album Yeti by Amon Duul II? if not it is an incredible Kraut Rock album...a must have in any prog collection. I hope my suggestions bring you pleasure. Ron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:10:35 -0700 From: "Darin Giammusso" Subject: Exposure With all this talk about Exposure, when is that going to be 24-bit remastered in HDCD? DG ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #746 ********************************