Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #737 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 737 Monday, 2 October 2000 Today's Topics: Re: Survey #10 I've heard this music before ... Re: OHM- Voices Trey Gunn Show Reviewed CGT heard during Olympic biking KC for the uninitiated Re: Russian KC CD-ROM Re: three (shows) of a perfect pair Re: DGM Marketing Practices Re: fripp's consent Re: Nugent or Fripp Re: 24-bit Remasters? 2nd show in DC? Survey Assorted responses to #734 NEW DAVID TORN [OT] AC/DC's sound primus covers KC Re: Givin' onions in 5/4 on MTV on a daily basis ET-FAQ Japanese Version rudeness survey Ozric Tentacles What IS a King Crimson FAN? Centrozoon (Interactive CD Project) Re: ET #735 and the right of King Crimson to perform as themself. ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 11:16:26 EDT From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: Re: Survey #10 > From: Patrick Hamtiaux > > Please note that question # 2 in your survey is a leading question. A > proper survey does not prejudge nor suggest a way to answer. The words > "unfairly punish" are improper. The question would have been objective if > it had asked "Does Mr. Fripp's behaviour have a negative or positive impact > on other members of the audience? on you?". Patrick, Perhaps, but that would also be a different question than the one being asked. Discussion here has/had been about people claiming they have been unfairly punished by Fripp's decisions. Therefore I felt the question should be stated in the terms of those making the claim. One can believe that his behavior has a negative impact, yet not believe his is "unfairly" punishing the audience. Regardless, these are not scientific surveys and don't claim to be. Often a number of vocal ETers proclaim a point of view. This survey looks to address if in fact a majority of ETers might feel differently. My bias is actually that Fripp is not unfairly punishing the audience by walking offstage. I think you are suggesting that the question is leading people to concur that his walking offstage actually is unfairly punishing. So perhaps I'm not good at writing survey questions that don't lead, and get it wrong when they do. Anyway, I think the results are still indicative of general sentiment since the percentages are high for the favored responses. Cheers, Dan ET Web ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:52:01 -0500 From: "David F. Snyder" Subject: I've heard this music before ... Aaron (aa) says: " .... rich) potential repertoire. Why, why, WHY, if they can't even put together enough material for three different shows??? " It only seems fair: KC plays three shows with the same music, aaron whines twice (once in GB, and now here) in identical ways. Aaron can't even put together enough material for three different shows himself, but he has food on his table, a roof over his head, clothing and enough money to buy three tickets to KC performances. Here are my top ten reasons why KC "can't even put together yada yada .." 10. They do not want to. 9. Today is Tuesday, you moron! 8. The muskoxen required for the other two non-identical performances cancelled for more lucrative engagements. 7. Time weighs heavily upon their dusty data banks. 6. The band members are obsessive-compulsive and require a rigid playlist in order to prevent the collapse of third world economies. 5. The USA is the "land of the three." 4. Pat and Trey are not Bill and Tony. 3. Belew sucks. 2. Fripp is a heel. And the number one reason is: 1. To go out of their way and spend their valuable time in order to specifically annoy consumers like Aaron (aa). Duh! Cheers! david snyder ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:57:56 -0500 From: Craig Subject: Re: OHM- Voices David Voci wrote: >Pick of the Month...Ohm-Voices, on Two Ohm Hop label out of Denton, TX(the >band Ohm might be from Texas too)...run right out and get this gem of a >musical cross between Henry Cow/UZ/Avant style structures, coupled with >mellotron splashes reminiscent of the finer days of German EM similar to >Tangerine Dream's analogue years. Well,....Nice to see that you enjoy this. (You may have noticed they do a cover of a Lard Free tune, as well). If you don`t know Lard Free then RUN FAST & buy their 1st 3 albums!!!!!!! I cannot see any Henry Cow in Ohm`s style, other than the somewhat RIO-ish element which their clarinetist (Chris Forrest) lends to the proceedings. Their live performances are totally improvised, though. I know them (& have performed w/ them a bit, on sundry percussion). They are (mostly) from the Ft. Worth area here in Texas. You should also check out their 1st album called "O2". It`s even better, & very much for those into the druggy Kosmische Musik scene. For ET`ers, I suggest checking out their (extremely heavy) off-shoot band called YETI, who also have a new CD out on the same Two Ohm Hop label . It`s called "Things To Come". I think you`ll love it ..... (Think Magma circa "De Futura" meets France`s legendary Shub Niggurath, & you have an idea of the terrain). Not for the faint of heart. http://home.flash.net/~ohmmusic/yeti/ ~Craig Shropshire ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 11:18:16 CDT From: "Music Street Journal Gary Hill" Subject: Trey Gunn Show Reviewed Hi everyone Just wanted to let you know the latest issue of Music Street Journal (a webzine devoted to music reviews, interviews, etc.) has my review of Trey Gunn's Chicago show. Admittedly, it is a short review...Trey's music really borders on indescribable. Anyway, if you want to check out MSJ (there are quite a few other Crimson and Crimson related articles there in the archives -- just go to sorted by artist), point your browser to http://www.50megs.com/msj. Thanks, and have a great weekend Gary Gary Hill Music Street Journal http://www.50Megs.com/msj http://MusicStJournal.50megs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 12:28:05 -0700 From: "Ibiza Bar" Subject: CGT heard during Olympic biking Did anybody see the Olympic bicycle riding event broadcast on NBC several days ago? Playing in the background with video of the cyclists, I was pleasantly surprised to hear CGT's +ACI-Train To Lamy+ACI-. I guess that's it, right? The really Western-twangy sounding tune? Pretty cool backing track if you ask me, especially for such sporting events. I know I've heard +ACI-Thela Hun Ginjeet+ACI- a few other times before on ESPN. I just thought I'd share that with you all. Peace and music, Brian PS Does anybody know if Levin is gonna play any KC USA dates before heading to Japan with CGT in November? Please email me privately. Thanks+ACE- :) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 12:30:21 EDT From: GenoTT at aol dot com Subject: KC for the uninitiated >There's a semi-interesting thread going on in these pages about how to >describe KC to the uninitiated. "Noise" is my favorite so far.... >But it is an interesting challenge--how to say it simply and do a minimum of >injustice. I'm asked "what" KC is often enough, and an exposition on their >depth, diversity, and evolution is usually uncalled for. Well said. While loaning my Cirkus Cds to an unitiated friend recently, the best I could come up with was 'Queensryche meets Frank Zappa.' An extremely inadequate description of course, but we agreed you just can't describe KC in simple terms, period. Occasionally I'll loan out a specific CD to someone who I know from previous experience would like the style of (Red for a metal fan, Lizard for a jazz fan, Court for a prog-head, P4 for a techno fan, etc.), but this is followed by a lengthy explanation of how they sound nothing like that today (except for P4) and how one album can't come close to giving an idea of what the band sounds like. The best thing you can do is put on TCoL and say: this is what they sound like today. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 00:37:04 +0700 From: Alex Subject: Re: Russian KC CD-ROM In ET#735 "Iscander the Aquarius" wrote: > I bought today a CD-ROM with MP3's of live Crimzo that contains : > The Great Deceiver(4CD) > The Nightwatch(2CD) > Absent Lovers(2CD) Russians released four MP3 CDs with all Crimson's albums (both studio and live releases) including TCOL. > It's good to be Russian :-) Yes, you're right ;))) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 11:43:59 -0500 From: "Grant Colburn" Subject: Re: three (shows) of a perfect pair Aaron Deglanville wrote: >I am, however, irked by having only just recently discovered that KC will >be playing more or less identical sets all three nights (please spare me an >explanation of how every KC show is unique in its own special way). Hmmm, let's see. If you read DGM and here, it usually says how KC dislike big venues, and how they play consecutive nights so that a larger amount of people can see them in a chosen city. How did this translate into assuming the shows would each be different? > I would have felt flat-out ripped off if I had discoved this after attending >all three shows--not that I wouldn't have enjoyed the shows, but because it >seems to me that the prospective audience is entitled to some kind of >warning or disclaimer before dropping over $100 to see the same show three >nights in a row. You've got over 100 bucks to blow on KC shows and we're supposed to feel sorry for you? :-) If you read ET and DGM you KNOW they aren't playing music pre 90's, and you KNOW what the set lists were in Europe. Where did you think this supposedly 6 hours of new music was going to come from? (3 shows, roughly 2 hours each). Did you think that buying 3 tickets and living in denial would somehow MAKE the shows each have different lists? >I'm just wondering if many enthusiastic multiple ticketholders are going to feel >duped when they go in expecting different sets. You think there's "many" multi ticket holders? What duped? The information is clearly there for ALL to see unless they're too lazy to read and form logical conclusions. >Isn't this the usual expectation of a band >playing consecutive nights at the same venue? No. >As a perhaps unwelcome sidebar to this topic, Only unwelcome in that reasons have been given and discussed. Beyond that you are choosing to live in denial. Reasons have been stated and debated, ya might be bummed if you don't agree, but don't act like you don't know why.... >I have to wonder aloud anew >why KC2K is restricting themselves to such a tiny slice of their (huge, >rich) potential repertoire. Why, why, WHY, if they can't even put together >enough material for three different shows??? Different band. Old music part of history rather than the present, etc. (And playing for themselves and not for YOU) I don't know where you got the impression that a band would perform 3 different shows. I saw Page and Plant and it was mostly the same show for the tour, same with Page and the Crowes, same with Pink Floyd, same with Jethro Tull. For me the assumption is that set list remain pretty much the same for a tour till they get bored with it. What sense would there be to design shows so that they are geared toward the small percent of people who could even afford to see the same band 3 nights in a row? Do you really think a band would work up 6 hours of music ONLY for the 3 or 4 cities where they are playing numerous dates? And then just not play all the other music for the rest of the tour? >Has Fripp already answered >this one elsewhere? Help me out here, folks. I'm baffled. It almost >seems tragic to me. Numerous times. Your bafflement only increases my not feeling sorry for you. All this information was available for the taking BEFORE you invested over 100 bucks in tickets. How could you blow that much on unfounded assumptions? Didn't even a teeney tiny voice whisper to your subcounscious, "Hey, maybe I should read a little info about the tour before buying all these tickets." It just seems reasonable to me. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 12:08:09 -0500 From: "Grant Colburn" Subject: Re: DGM Marketing Practices Sid wrote: >Months back, the Artist Shop announced here that some old pressings of >Great Deceiver boxed set had surfaced and were on sale for $52. I placed my >order within days, but AS said another distributor had bought the whole >lot. When I tried to locate this distributor, I was told to contact DGM >(who now sells this at a higher price 60 British pounds). Now let's get this clear, were you told DGM had BOUGHT these old box sets, or just that if you wanted to buy the box set to contact DGM? (there's a definite difference!) >I would hate to see that DGM, in their effort to bypass >the big companies, are falling into the same unethical business >practices. Specifically, if the above patterns are actually the result of >price-fixing schemes, great risks are involved. One of DGMs goals is *to >operate in the market place, while being free of the values of the market >place*. Is one of those values free trade ? Let's take your assumption as true, shall we? When is it unethical for a company to purchase a quantity of anything that is advertised for sale? If someone is selling box sets and then someone buys them, where is the unethicality? The better assumption is that its not true. Surely if the Art Shop had a quantity of old sets, Art Shop would take a loss selling the sets back to DGM for a greatly discounted price (otherwise why would DGM buy them back, since they potentially would have to pay almost market price for them?) Chances are the production cost of the new ones would be less than the price to buy back the old ones. >Perhaps RF should supplement his self-actualization studies by some >courses in economics. There he would learn that every business has an >intangible, but valuable, resource called good will. Again, you need to clarify your logic in assuming they DID buy back the old sets. Being told to contact DGM when you inquired about the box sets, doesn't necessarily imply that the distributor meant "If you want to buy the OLD copy of the box set." Could it not have simply meant that purchasable sets were available from DGM? >If DGM pretends to be >on a noble mission, then charges predatory high prices and refuses to >permit discounting of their goods, Surely DGM got what they asked for the FIRST time these box sets were sold. After they got their money, why would they worry about what price the distributor sold them for?I still contend that it would cost DGM more to buy back the old copies than to just sell the new ones. >then this can lead to negative good will, eventually leading to lower >sales, and in >worst cases, organized boycotts. And chaos shall envelop the world as the antichrist is reborn........ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 12:11:05 -0500 From: "Grant Colburn" Subject: Re: fripp's consent Ty Perry wrote: >i'm wondering if >anybody has ever asked mr. fripp directly, before a show: "hey, mr. fripp, >is >it okay if i record your show tonight?" that way, if he says yes then that >recording would be consentual and therefore not interfere with the feeling >of >the show. First you'd need to ask if it was OK to talk to him before a show, to which the answer would probably already be NO. You assume your talking to him would be concentual. > this seems to extend to: (snip) See above! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 12:21:36 -0500 From: "Grant Colburn" Subject: Re: Nugent or Fripp Gary Weimer wrote: >I dug out The Amboy Dukes lp Marriage on the >Rocks, and put it on. On the label, the >second part of "The Inexhaustible Search for the Cosmic Cabbage" mentions >an >excerp from Bartok's String Symphony number 2. I listen to it, and sure enough >there are some familiar strains coming through the vocals. A couple of listens >later, I grab my copy of "Lark's Tongue in Aspic, Pt. 2", and give it a spin. Same >licks. Same licks if one example is "some familiar strains coming through the vocals" and the other example is an instrumental? >It's been widely speculated >that this Bartok piece was, to some degree, the basis for LTIA, It has? I always heard Bartok's string quartets were among Fripp's faves. Plus "basis" and "inspiration" are two different terms. Bartok maybe inspired Fripp to write as he does, but I don't think he has "based" his music on Bartok. >but could it be that The Amboy Dukes actually thought of it first? It strikes me as >ironic that Ted Nugent was doing this years before Robert Fripp! Did what, quoted Bartok? Unlike ELP, I've never heard that LTLA specifically quotes anything of Bartok ( note for note). Bartok may have inspired and influenced Fripp with harmonic relationships and rhythm, but I don't think the word "quoting" would apply. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 13:18:18 -0400 From: Gary Davis Subject: Re: 24-bit Remasters? At 03:29 PM 9/30/00 GMT, Tom wrote: >I'd like to know if there are plans to release Discipline, Three Of A >Perfect Pair and Beat as 24-bit Remasters. > >If so, when can I expect them to be released? Next year? Yes, these three CD's will be getting the same remastering treatment as the rest. Currently they are slated to be released around the beginning of 2001, possibly January or February. I had mentioned that Lark's, Starless and Red got pushed back a couple weeks apparently due to a manufacturing glitch and are now due out October 17. Apparently, though, the Japanese had no such glitch as the Japanese versions have already been released. The only difference, though, is that the Japanese CD's are on a gold disc and MUCH more expensive - about $30 compared to a much more reasonable $13.99. So unless you specifically want gold discs, it's much better to wait a couple weeks for the regular release. One of my customers decided he wanted the Japanese version of Red. When it came in the other day, I had a bit of a surprise. I had expected it to be in a mini-LP sleeve, which it was, but I didn't expect that sleeve to be a gatefold! My own LP version of Red bought oh so many years ago is definitely NOT a gatefold. Was there ever a gatefold release of the LP? If you're wondering what was on the inside of the gatefold, it was primarily black with the lyrics printed inside. That's certainly a bonus as the lyrics weren't included in the original vinyl version (at least my vinyl copy didn't have it). Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com artshop at artist-shop dot com phone: 877-856-1158, 330-929-2056 fax:330-945-4923 INDEPENDENT PROGRESSIVE MUSIC!!! ************************************************************** Artist Shop Radio Check out the latest Artist Shop newsletter at http://www.artist-shop.com/news.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 15:15:59 -0400 From: Tom Law Subject: 2nd show in DC? Anybody know why Ticketmaster is selling tickets ONLY to the Nov. 8th show at the 9:30 club in Washington, and there's no mention of Nov. 9? Is the club itself selling tickets for Nov. 9? Also, the club's web page indicates that there are usually TWO shows a night. I'm driving 500 miles for this/these concert(s), and hope to see every show they're doing in DC, whether it's 1, 2, or 4 shows. I've already ordered my tickets for that one show, thinking that maybe they're waiting to see if it sells out before adding the next night. Anybody have any inside information about this? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 15:29:50 EDT From: GenoTT at aol dot com Subject: Survey >Who is more rude: an audience member who disobeys the rules and is escorted >out of the venue, or the band member who decides, because of this, all other >admission paying concert-goers (who don't even know that person) aren't >deserving >to hear that cut (to quote RF: "I don't play FraKctured at photo sessions"), or aren't >worthy of his presence? Assuming a lot, aren't we? Has it occurred to you that Robert is just as disappointed as the fans when this "violation" happens? Whether anyone is 'deserving' in this case doesn't matter: someone has ruined the conditions for a performance of FraKctured for both the band and audience. Everyone loses. Ok, we've heard the other argument. You may have paid $35-40 for a ticket and driven an hour or two to the venue. Consider: this band has bought, set up and learned to use huge loads of equipment, gone to enormous trouble to put the tour together, and spent countless hours writing, recording, rehearsing, practicing and traveling so they could put on this show. How do you think they feel about not being able to experience an adequate performance? May I recommend looking up RF's Guestbook responses on the DGM web site? I'm only repeating what's been said hundreds of times. If you're willing to try to share in something beyond yourself, join us. If you can't look past conventional expectations, save your money. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 15:00:50 -0500 From: Don Hosek Subject: Assorted responses to #734 >Why does Crimson run ads using Lake's voice when Greg's been out of the >group for 300 years?? They don't. Idiot promoters do. >From reading RF's diary during the European leg it's pretty clear that KC >has little if any control over promotions. >Subject: TCOL in Playboy >Even though you read it here, go buy the issue anyway. Show 'em you care. Not to mention that after you've spent that money to get a review of TCoL they throw in pictures of naked chicks for free. >Subject: fripp's consent >hello. i was thinking about something that mr. fripp said in his diary, about >the bootlegtv recordings of their concerts being consentual. i'm wondering if >anybody has ever asked mr. fripp directly, before a show: "hey, mr. fripp, is >it okay if i record your show tonight?" that way, if he says yes then that >recording would be consentual and therefore not interfere with the feeling of >the show. this seems to extend to: >"excuse me, mr. fripp, may i please take a picture of you during frakctured?" >(instead of taking the picture w/o asking) >"hey, would it bother you if i had a cigarette?" (instead of lighting up in >front of him w/o asking) >"hey, can i use one of your songs for my movie?" (instead of taking the song >for your movie w/o asking) And understand that he has the right to say no and that in almost every instance he will say no (well perhaps not the last). -dh --- "E-mail is for geeks and pedophiles." -Valmont, in the film Cruel Intentions ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 16:03:56 EDT From: Josleed at aol dot com Subject: NEW DAVID TORN For anyone interested. SPLaTTeRCeLL (a/k/a david torn) release dates: In stores & online NOW: ReMiKSiS:::AH (CD & vinyl; 65 minute EP--- includes REMIXES of SPLaTTeRCeLL ::: OAH by Charlie Clouser (NiN), Ryuichi Sakamoto, Dan the Automator, Carter Burwell, SPLaTTeRCeLL feat. Tim Bowness (of NoMan), Yoshihiro Hanno, Fernando Aponte, & Gareth Williams..... PLUS one extra SPLaTTeRCeLL track) Oct. 3rd SPLaTTeRCeLL:::OAH (!!!the full-length CD!!!) All On CeLLDiviSioN/75Ark: http://www.75ark.com SPLaTTeRCeLL: http://www.gaalore.com/davidtorn.nsf/Pages/soah Solid States: http://www.gaalore.com/davidtorn.nsf List site: http://www.egroups.com/group/davidtorn CeLLDiViSioNReCoRDS = uncontrolled substance ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 15:29:59 -0500 From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" Subject: [OT] AC/DC's sound >>Anyway, if you want a band who's never changed its sound in the least, >>listen to AC/DC. >well if you call having three different lead singers not changing their >sound 'in the least' ...OK. Besides, 3 chord rock still works and who's >arguing if it's still ACDC? You got me there. I seem to remember from the "Behind the Music" that their first single with the lead singer nobody remembers didn't really sound like AC/DC. After they got Bon Scott, though, most of their songs do sound the same right up to the present. And you're right, it seems to work for them. They play their own style of hard rock music quite well. In fact, I don't know whether to condemn them for playing the same thing over and over, or praise them for totally ignoring the whims of "pop" music! Since I happen to like them, I won't fault them too much. ;-) I guess that's where the similarity between AC/DC and KC is: they aren't "pop". Justin A. Kolodziej ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:03:14 -0400 From: "rs" Subject: primus covers KC go to this link http://www.primussucks.com/frames/fboot.html and click on the "Les Claypool & The Fearless Flying Frog Brigade - 8/29/2000 - Live from New York City" link. 15 minute version of Thela Hun Ginjeet (lots of talking) and lots of the Floyd! And the Live album! http://www.primussucks.com/frames/ftour.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 01:13:13 CEST From: "Marcus Enochsson" Subject: Re: Givin' onions in 5/4 on MTV on a daily basis Kind of hello 'n stuff! Well. First of all, I am deeply shocked. The very foundations that my whole life is built upon are shaking and breaking. This is due to the fact that a revelation was shown to me on MTV the other day. As the self-styled leader in the quest for odd time signatures in the world outside our common pigeon hole (though determined not to find any, since there aren't any, according to THE LAW OF ME), I was terrified to find that MTV plays music in 5/4 ON A DAILY BASIS!!! I don't know if I should call them and tell them about this horrific mistake, but I felt sorry for the MTV employees that would lose their jobs if this potential mega-scandal was revealed... So I didn't. Instead I took a deep breath and accepted the fact that a HUGE MTV HIT has a break in 5/4, namely Limp Bizkit's "Take a look around (theme from Mission Impossible II)". After a few verses and choruses, there's a quiet but suggestive break in 5/4. Well. That's the truth. Response: -------- 1. Fernando Cesar (luprates at zaz dot com dot br) (ET) Mon, 18 Sep 2000 04:57:52 -0300 > Subject: Just an opinion from ETers that I want. "With a chromatic harmonica,I've pulled out Larks' Tongues 2," ME: Bravo Fernando!!! I'm impressed. "and now,I have this doubt,which goes to the folks here with a pair of other questions: 1-Should we play Larks' Tongues?(I know it must be hard to imagine Part II with an harmonica,but try...)" ME: Yes or no, are those my only options??? In my band, we play LTIA II, and we're a drummer and two guitarists, of which one (me, kind of) plays the riffs, and one (that's not me) just tortures his guitar as much as possible or his (still not me, cause it's the other guy, which isn't me) violin in case he has brought it. Sounds absolutely HORRIFIC!!! DO try this at home! I believe it may sound even freakier with a harmonica. I say GO FOR IT with all of your heart!!! It's often when one is aiming to be as wild as possible, and loosening oneself from as many prejudices as possible that one can make the most rocking music. Be unconventional!! As far as it is possible, of course. If you have a clear vision about the band, don't be afraid to let it guide you, and you (that is: IT) the band. If you don't, make sure that the band gets along well together, and let mother fortune guide you. "2-What do you people think about this band?" ME: What do I think? Is that my only option? I posed TWO questions there. Darned. Hmm, better disqualify myself and go and hide in the basement for a while, since asking two questions in fact is one of the newly revised deadly sins (indifference was cut out since it was found too trivial anyway). "3-Where we can go from here?" ME: To the bottom of my heart or to the top of the lists. It's up to you, or your vision, to chose. Or perhaps you'll go for both, but don't aim for it. That will come out of itself if it does. It won't if it won't. But that goes without saying. Or writing, that is. But you understood that I meant that anyway. Without me writing so, I mean... Either way, you can go as far as you like, as long as you are open minded and prepared to move on (actually, that Freep's got a point every now and then.). It's a question of priorities. Well, besides you said that you had a PAIR of other questions. When a PAIR most usually means TWO, how come that there are 3 question marks? "I take your advice seriously,folks,so,answer me,and no joking,please." ME: Oh dear, Fernando. You are most certainly locked in your own little loop here and it seems that things are getting sort of entangled in your arguments, I suppose. Fernando has expectations to be able to take my advice seriously. He gets my advice. He takes it seriously. And follows it. But it wasn't very seriously written. And I am fumbling after some coherence in this cycle. ...and a brilliant oneliner to round this argument off too. Therefore it is unacceptable to behave like a dope! Yes, that's it! It is unacceptable to behave like a dope! Nearly sincerely, Mar-dopey-cus Enochsson PS. To Fernando, forgive me my sense of humour, but I DO stand for the things I've written above, if you only scale the 90% of the text off, which is there only for a laughs' sake. PS II. To Fripp if Fripp reads, Yes, I'm a dope. So sue me!!! Now off to listen to some high, shrill voices and hopelessly off-beat tambourine. C ya' ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 00:33:03 +0100 From: Kenichiro Lawrence Oga Subject: ET-FAQ Japanese Version Dear Japanese ETers, The Crimso Japan Tour is coming very soon, as you know. That's very good. And I imagine you are being excited and can't wait even a few days. And then, for the preparation and usual usefulness, I have published the ET-FAQ Japanese Version (a Japanese translation of ET-FAQ), by courtesy of Mr Steven Sthole the FAQMaster, and of Mr Dan Kirkdorffer the ET-Webmaster. Currently Sections II -IV completed. The others will be dome gradually. The URL is: http://www.reverie.st-david.net/etfaq/index.html Enjoy the Japanese FAQ and the upcoming gigs. Thank you again, Steven and Dan. With best wishes, Kenichiro Lawrence Oga ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 21:20:37 -0500 From: "Aaron P Deglanville" <"aaron_deglanville"@uhc.com> Subject: rudeness survey That is the most stilted, leading survey I've ever seen in my life (and I've seen Cosmopolitain, the Weekly World News, etc...). Maybe it's supposed to be funny. I like the last question, where the third option looks like it was written by Robert Fripp. Here's my survey: (I'll even tabulate and report the results, including "best additional options"): 1) Robert Fripp: A) is God B) is Satan C) is a cranky egomaniac D) are those my only three options? 2) King Crimson A) is God B) is Satan C) is a cranky egomaniac (Robert Fripp) D) is the confluence of conditions that allows King Crimson to become manifest E) are those my only four options? 3) ET A) is God B) is Satan C) is an alien D) is a turd E) is a very cool newsgroup F) is a very cool newsgroup except for all the people who post there G) are those my only six options??? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 03:04:53 GMT From: "Les B." Subject: Ozric Tentacles ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 04:12:35 -0200 From: luprates Subject: What IS a King Crimson FAN? Seeing how things are going,and lots of attempts to describe WHAT IS King Crimson,I for one ask you all: What IS a KC FAN? --'69:responsive,full of expectation,devoted; --'70-'72:mixed; --'73-'74:extremely annoying; --'81-84:initially responsive,then mixed again; --'94-'98:responsive,with some expectation,not so devoted and still a bit mixed; --'99-'00:extremely annoying. Think about it,buds. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 09:27:29 +0100 From: "Lee Fletcher" Subject: Centrozoon (Interactive CD Project) Dear ETers, Some (non KC) music news which I believe will interest those of you with adventurous ears... (This post has also been sent to the DGM Guestbook.) German experimental duo Centrozoon, who consist of Markus Reuter (Warr guitar) and Bernhard Wostheinrich (synthesizer) are conducting an experiment in artist / audience interaction during the production phase of their forthcoming album 'The Cult Of : Bibbiboo'. Many ETers will be familiar with Markus's virtuoso touchstyle playing as one quater of the splendid Europa String Choir, who have incidentally released two albums on Discipline. Centrozoon however, occupy a different sonic space - more rooted in freeform improvisation, and may appeal to enthusiasts of Robert Fripp's Soundcapes. The production team are openly inviting listeners to participate in the creation of Bibbiboo... MP3 samples of the work-in-progress will be regularly uploaded, with listeners actively encouraged to sample / comment / and potentially shape the production process. Taking things a step further, supporters are invited to officially join 'the cult' and help in promoting the 'divine beast' that is Bibbiboo to an unsuspecting world! Thanks for you time folks. If you wish to lend your ears to this project then please visit http://www.centrozoon.de for further details. May bibbiboo be with you! :-) Lee Fletcher ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 03:35:16 CDT From: "Trey Five Winds" Subject: Re: ET #735 and the right of King Crimson to perform as themself. Regarding the hostility I've seen towards Robert Fripp's "Live Performance Working Conditions": IS THIS REALLY NECESSARY? Do we have to complain about the way the band feels they can perform their work? And is there truly anything unreason- able about the way the band feels they can do their work? I say band because, although Robert doesn't speak for the others, it seems that, from some careful research and rereading (and rereading again) of some diary entries that the band supports Robert's views on this, at least in part; if they support it to any degree, it may be reasonable to assume that they have the same or very similar views on the subject, at least in part. But of course, Robert is getting the most flack for being the one to "speak loudest" on the subject in question. Regarding many various areas of fan commentary and opinion, I don't care that much about what a lot of people write in here about RF or King Crimson; I note that some views reveal very good insight of their holders and that some views show how others either do not think their position through completely or are just writing to get a reaction without contributing anything meaningful or necessary. I am following this topic mainly because of my interest in returning to active duty as a musician, and I feel some very sympathetic resonances with the way King Crimson choose to carry out their live performances. So, this leads me to pose some very necessary questions to "experienced, discriminating intelligent audients." Feel free to comment or ignore this as you may. #1: Why should we blame Robert Fripp (or any other member of KC, or any other member or any other band, or any band at all) if he doesn't want to be photographed while he's onstage "at work?" I can speak with some authority here because I develop film for a living; I am aware of how cameras do their job and the actual processes behind film developing and photography. I can also tell you (as could my employer) that I do not own a single camera and can't stand to have one pointed at me shooting pictures either. I work everyday in an environ- ment where I have to perform my work while prospective customers try out cameras in our store, including flashes; and while I'm trying to pay attention to the visual nature of my work, I've got four flashes a minute going off to the right of me. It is a constant nuisance, it's distracting, it wastes valuable battery power that could be put to use out in the field (and away from my eyes and the eyes of my fellow employees) and it's entirely pointless because no actual pictures are produced in those moments. It is also something I can do nothing about. These are the conditions I work in. They require that I put up with this. To my knowledge, Robert, Adrian, Trey and Pat do NOT work in a camera shop. Nor are they models. They should not have to put up with photography at their shows if they do not wish to. And, speaking as a former performing musician who has experienced the nuisances of flashes going off on me onstage with dimmed lights and a mood beginning to build, it annoys me to no end to know that a device that is designed and capable of releasing THREE DAYS OF COMBINED SUNLIGHT INTO ONE BURST OF LIGHT ENERGY is out there and being engaged for use AT me. It never feels like something that is done to support me, it feels like an act that is committed AT me. And this is true. This is photography by its very nature. There is nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but when musicians are attempting to see something brought to life, they need all the help they can get. Flash photography does not help. If in any doubt whatsoever, try getting up onstage and performing music while someone is shooting pictures at YOU all night. You might then be able to sympa- thise with Robert's point of view on this. (Obviously this doesn't apply to those who are only playing musical instruments for show. Some do, you know.) Should Robert (or the rest of the band) walk offstage and stop their performance because of flash photography? All I can say to this is, from my own experiences, I could not and would not blame any one of them if they did. I've wanted to do it myself, but didn't, and professionalism had nothing to do with staying up on that stage long after the moment was ruined. As far as I'm concerned, Robert is merely demonstrating acting according to principle. Some people could stand to learn from this, even me. #2: Why should we get angry at Robert Fripp or King Crimson for playing what they want to play? When I go to see a band, I want them to play whatever they want to play. I've seen the California Guitar Trio three times. I've enjoyed them each time. They play a variety of songs, and they've even added improvisation to the game plan. I love "Pathways," as far as playing everything that I want to hear from the album, admittedly, the Trio have failed only in this one aspect. But why I don't even consider this is because the rest of the show they played both times, aside from the "Pathways" pieces they DID play, more than made up for this. Immensely so. So, "Pathways," one of my favourite albums, will never be played all on its entirety. This is fine, so long as the CGT play what THEY want to play. If they like it, and go to all of the trouble of arranging it to play, then I say, give it a chance. It's worked won- ders so far. King Crimson has chosen to play a setlist that includes all of the material from "The ConstruKction Of Light," some pieces from "THRAK," a version of "Cage," and some other bits here and there. Basically, King Crimson usually plays new material when they tour. This makes sense, and this is the material they want to play. I'm seeing a lot of people complaining because King Crimson isn't doing this song or that song or old, ancient, or even methuselistic material. Why are you complaining about this? Why should we have to hear "In The Court Of The Crimson Schwing" yet AGAIN? This is why we own the album -- to listen to it at our leisure. This is also why "Epitaph" was made avail- able -- to hear the original band perform this song live at your lei- sure. Why should King Crimson continue to play it now? And do they even WANT to? I would think not, or that they might want to, but aren't sure it's vital enough to include in a set list. And some of us here are going to waste valuable time, energy and resources moaning and complaining about this? It seems like some of the readers bought tickets they can barely afford to see a show they didn't want to see (mind you, how could they know without seeing it that they didn't want to?) by a band that doesn't include everyone they want it to include that features songs that they can't stand anyway. And you wonder why Robert Fripp is telling you to move on? I don't. If I go to see KCY2K and they play their current set list, that's fine. If they choose to change it, that's fine too. If they choose to play something even completely different or to spend all evening as ProjeKct X completely improvising a show, then that's fine too. I know that if they play what they want to play, the intention will come through and I will receive that. And, if it doesn't, I'll at least have had the chance to see them perform live. I'm not going to hold the band to unreasonable preconditions that restrict their work; you can't expect a band to fully be itself by restricting their work. It seems like a lot of people here want to see King Crimson, but only under their conditions. I think that history, diary entries, and references to direct experience all will tell you, however, that King Crimson makes itself known under its own conditions. This is simply how music is. At the very least, we can ac- knowlesge that the band knows its work and we don't; we're not the band, no matter how much some fans like to think they are. I don't presume to tell an artist how to paint a picture or a plumber to fix my sink; pro- vided that the picture is completed or the sink works afterward, why should I care how they got there? I might be interested in the process, but after it's all said and done, if it works, it works. IF you don't believe that this King Crimson works for you, get away from it and leave it to those of us who are willing to give it a chance on its own terms. There's nothing wrong with outgrowing something or disagreeing with something and moving on. It happens. That's life. Life happens while you plan it. Music is the same way. Why shouldn't live performances of music be? #3: Why should we insist that Robert Fripp (or any other member of King Crimson) autograph everything we stick in his face? And why should we get mad when he doesn't? How much value is there to a signature? Sincerely, how much value does it hold? Why is it necessary? ISN'T THE MUSIC ENOUGH? I own two albums signed by the California Guitar Trio. Why did they sign them? They offered to. They didn't mind doing so, and had a pleasant time doing so, talking to people as they were doing this. Tony Geballe too signed his album that I bought. However, if they hadn't offered to sign them, I probably wouldn't have asked. Why? Because a signature is just a signature, for one. For another, it was enough that they got to record theses albums, sell them, and play live to support them. What more could you ask for? WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO ASK ANY MORE OF THEM THAN THEY ARE WILLING TO GIVE? Notice I said it was enough that they got to record these albums and sell them and play live to support them. Notice also that I didn't say "it was enough to me," but that I said "it was enough." And it should be. Musicians are people too. They deserve respect as all people do and have a right to their privacy as all people do. Since when is it any musician's job to be a handwriting practitioner every time they go out in public? What, just because we see Adrian Belew at a movie, does that mean that we should just butt in on his personal time with his family or friends or fellow bandmates just to stare at him ,gawk at him, ask him stupid questions or insist that he practise his signature on a napkin just for our amusement and approval and our collection of keepsakes? Where the hell do we get these asinine ideas? Do we really have to butt in on these peoples' time and start telling them things they don't want to know about people they don't really know who acted or did this or said that because of something they recorded or performed on an album or at a concert? And why should we really expect these guys to remember whether or not we were there? An autograph can be a special thing if given; I personally would rather not have an autograph by someone if they did not wish to give it. Robert takes a somewhat brave and practical way out of this: He doesn't sign them, or signs them in conditions of his own choosing. And people get upset at this. But consider: how much of a pest did you make of yourself? And why? He'll remember this. So will you. There is the opportunity for resentment to build, leading to other things later on that have nothing to do with him, or whoever you got the autograph from. So why ask for it? It's just a signature. A CD doesn't sound any better just because the artist dragged ink across the insert booklet. It just means, sometimes, that they were obtained under special circumstances. But the music should be able to hold up without this. The question, really, is this: Why should we blame Robert or any of the other guys in Crimson for wanting a private life? As human beings, isn't this one of their many rights? #4: Why should we hesitate to attend King Crimson shows based on what Robert Fripp (or Trey Gunn, or Pat Mastelotto, or Adrian Belew) may or may not do in response to audiences who don't obey the "house rules?" These men have already committed to playing these concerts. They committed to putting on the very best concerts they could, and to honour and serve the music to the best of their individual and collective ability. They've put in a lot of time, energy, creativity, manpower, money, resources, and conveniences to make sure we are given an oppor- tunity to see them play live. And now, because some of us don't like the way RF or the rest of the band views certain practises by the audience (regardless of whether or not these practises are actually acceptable) and how they might respond to them, these folks decide they are not going to take a chance on the occasion based on how the BAND reacts to these violations of the house rules. Well, what about the violators? If you are going to refuse yourself the opportunity of a good time and a connection to music you may or may not love (there are some), then why blame it on things that have not even occurred yet? And if they do, why not just put the blame where it belongs -- on the violators? OR, EVEN BETTER YET, WHY DON'T WE ALL JUST REFUSE TO VIOLATE THE HOUSE RULES?!? These rules are fairly simple, easy to act in accordance with, and en- tirely reasonable. They are difficult to understand to some, and I can see why, but consider it from the band's point of view: after 30+ years of doing this for a LIVING, there must be some legitimate reason for these preferences, right? After all, must of us DON'T do this for a living, so maybe it's safe to assume that the band knows what they're talking about and why, right? After all, that's THEIR JOB, isn't it? When all of this is said and done, yes, it's "only talk," but it is with this that I intend to SPEAK. I hope those who can understand and agree with these things see why I wrote them, and I hope those who can't can take a few moments to see why they don't. Best Wishes, Trey Five Winds ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #737 ********************************