Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #729 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 729 Tuesday, 29 August 2000 Today's Topics: NEWS: CGT to hold Live Chat 8/31 NEWS: The Next KC Remasters NEWS: New Gigmaster at ET Web Beatles Butcher Baby correction The Creator Has a Master Plan To Be Or Not To Be Crimson -- a reply to Tim Cox made public. criticisms of KC what is King Crimson? ProzaKc Belews Lizard Interpretation Re: Abbey Road vs ItCotCK Mike Keneally ET logo Guitar Craft TCOL Re: Timothy W Cox See Thela Hun Ginjeet Live -- Les Claypool's Band of Frog's Headless hoarsemen; on the Rhodes again; what is crimson music Slukes Re: Fake KC Cd Claypool's new band RED remaster True Music Receptacles Trey Gunn ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 09:50:43 -0600 From: Jon Lybrook Subject: NEWS: CGT to hold Live Chat 8/31 * * * CGT To Hold On-Line Chat Announcing New CD Series * * * This Thursday night, August 31, 2000 from 8:00pm to 9:00pm Pacific Time, California Guitar Trio will be holding an on-line chat to answer questions about their new live album, their new on-line store, and the upcoming fall tour. Instructions for connecting to the java-based chat room will be posted this week at http://www.cgtrio.com/chat.htm. Available connections to the chat will be limited, so log on early to participate and chat live with the CGT! The new album, "Monday Night in San Francisco", featuring Tony Levin, is the first of a series of live CGT concert recordings being presented in their entirety, taken directly from the CGT's on-stage ADAT system and roughly mastered with the approval of the CGT. The album debuts the CGT Direct Collectors' Series, an experimental project by the CGT to give fans the opportunity to directly support the band by purchasing live recordings from them directly, and meet the demand for quality recorded, live CGT material. The first release of the CGT Direct Collectors' Series was taken from a performance at the Great American Music Hall in San Francisco on May 1, 2000. Orders will be accepted for this rare performance exclusively through the new CGT Direct store front on the CGT website and at CGT shows. The band will also be offering earlier recordings by the CGT, the Robert Fripp String Quintet, T-Shirts, and more using secure, on-line ordering. The CGT Direct on-line store goes LIVE immediately following the chat with Paul Richards, Bert Lams, and Hideyo Moriya of the CGT on August 31st. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 16:48:18 -0400 From: Gary Davis Subject: NEWS: The Next KC Remasters Hi, folks: The latest Artist Shop newsletter is out and you'll find it in its entirety at . Meanwhile, here's all the news that's fit for Crimson fans! Coming Soon on our Discipline page King Crimson/Lark's Tongue in Aspic King Crimson/Starless and Bible Black King Crimson/Red Slated for an October release are King Crimson's phenomenal '72-'74 albums featuring Robert Fripp, Bill Bruford, John Wetton, David Cross and Jamie Muir. Red also features a guest appearance from Crimson founder Ian McDonald! Digitally remastered by Robert Fripp himself using 24 bit technology plus HDCD encoding, they come in unique, limited edition, cardboard stock sleeves just as the original vinyl LP's with the original artwork & sleeve notes intact. These newly remastered versions will eventually revert to a standard jewel case packaging, so get these limited editions while you can. As this period of King Crimson tends to be the most favored by Crimson fans, demand will be high. Pre-ordering them is highly recommended. Fayman & Fripp/A Temple in the Clouds Recorded live from a past life, A Temple in the Clouds invokes a voyage on an ancient mariner vessel bound for what might be the Earth's end. Strange mists rise as we slowly drift upon the encompassing sparkling seas where sacred primordial ritual meets modern amplified sound. Awash in the looping structures of Robert Fripp's guitar soundscapes, Jeffrey Fayman adds an opulent cinematic brilliance to the proceedings, creating an intense and dramatic vision of a future rich in the heritage of Fripp's past. Recored live from a past life. Nine years in the making, A Temple in the Clouds is a unique collaboration between one of rock's most important and influential guitarists and a contemporary cinematic composer. Fripp's contribution of two hours worth of treated guitar work (his trademark "Frippertronics") formed the basis for Fayman's layering of interwoven electronic soundscapes. Focusing on the subtleties and slight shifts in overtones and harmonics, Fayman and Fripp have created a dynamic musical kaleidoscope, every changing and instrinsically radiant in each sonic fractal. This album, released on the Projekt label, is very reminiscent of Fripp's early work with Brian Eno - No Pussyfooting and Evening Star. soundbite David Sylvian and Robert Fripp/Live in Japan 1995 ....import VHS-NTSC Japanese only release, recorded live in Japan in 1995. Professionally shot and was subsequently broadcast on Japanese T.V. Tracks include, 'God's Monkey', 'Brightness Falls', 'Every Colour You Are', 'Jean The Birdman', 'Firepower', 'Damage', 'Exposure', 'Gone To Earth', '20th Century', 'Dreaming', 'Wave', 'Riverman', 'Darshan', 'The First Day' & 'Heaven'. Available Now!!! King Crimson/Collector's King Crimson Vol. 3 ....import CD box set Japanese 3 CD box-set for the influential prog rock act. Disc one is titled 'ProjeKt Four/Live In San Francisco-The Roar Of P4' and features 7 tracks. Disc two is titled 'The Vrooom Sessions April-May 1994' and features 12 tracks. Disc three is titled 'Live At Summit Studios, Denver, March 12, 1972' and features 8 tracks. Coming Soon from Clearlight Music Clearlight Symphony/Forever Blowing Bubbles This album followed the heady success of Symphony by charting into new territory. Forever Blowing Bubbles is also based on keyboardist Cyrille Verdeaux's piano and synthesizers but incorporates a more cohesive group sound featuring bassist/vocalist Joel Duregenot (ex-Zao), violinist David Cross (King Crimson) & guitarist/flutist Jean Claude d'Agostini (Magic Circus). Shorter songs with more variety are featured with pronounced synthesizer textures and a strong symphonic/psychedelic ambiance. Long a favorite of certain Clearlight fans, Bubbles was remastered to provide the best sound quality possible. Available Now from Magna Carta Bozzio Levin Stevens/Situation Dangerous With the success of their debut release, Black Light Syndrome, Magna Carta was not going to let that be the only statement from this trio of Terry Bozzio, Tony Levin and Steve Stevens! It also marked the beginning of a new and more musically challenging era for Magna Carta. Coming soon is Bozzio Levin Stevens second release, Situation Dangerous! soundbite Now available on our 3rd Stone page No-Man/Flowermouth Flowermouth is a reissue of vocalist Tim Bowness' and multi-instrumentalist Steve Wilson's incredible album from 1993. Joining them on this tour-de-force are King Crimson leader Robert Fripp (guitar), Crimson alumni Mel Collins (sax and flute), Ian Carr from Nucleus (trumpet), Richard Barbieri, Steve Jansen, Lisa Gerrard, Ben Coleman and more. This is a very strong album that will definitely appeal to fans of No-Man, Porcupine Tree, King Crimson/Fripp, etc. soundbite Coming Soon in our New Artist section Richard Leo Johnson/Language Some of you may have had the good fortune to witness Richard as the opening act for King Crimson during their recent Nashville gigs. With his first album for Blue Note, Fingertip Ship, Richard Leo Johnson proved he could sound like a whole band with just a solo guitar and no overdubs. On his forthcoming release, Language, he brings the band on board - and what a band! Guests on Richard's second outing for the prestigious Blue Note label include Paul McCandless (various wind instruments), Glenn Moore (double bass), Andy Reinhart (accordian), Matt Wilson (drums), Cyro Baptista (percussion), James "Worm" Wormworth (washboard), Warren Haynes (acoustic slide guitar), Reggie Washington (electric bass) and daughter Tess on cello. Can't wait for the next album! soundbite I want to make special mention of the aforementioned Sylvian/Fripp video. This was originally reported to me to be a DVD. However, since I mentioned it in the last newsletter, the distributor who reported it to be a DVD found out that their information was incorrect. It is a VHS. Too bad. I wanted a DVD for myself! :-( Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com artshop at artist-shop dot com phone: 877-856-1158, 330-929-2056 fax:330-945-4923 INDEPENDENT PROGRESSIVE MUSIC!!! ************************************************************** Artist Shop Radio Check out the latest Artist Shop newsletter at http://www.artist-shop.com/news.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 20:19:12 EDT From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: NEWS: New Gigmaster at ET Web I'd like to formally announce that we have a new and dedicated "gigmaster" at ET Web: Kathryn Ottersten. Kathy has volunteered to maintain the tour dates lists at ET Web, on top of her role reporting tour dates at Krimson News/KCNN. So a big thank you and welcome to Kathy in joining the growing ET team. I know *I* will greatly appreciate her assistance. I have set up a new email address that can be used to contact Kathy if you have any tour date info or questions: gigmaster at elephant-talk dot com. gigmistress at elephant-talk dot com will work too ;^) Cheers, Dan ET Web ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 09:47:26 -0600 From: "Mary Rogers" Subject: Beatles Butcher Baby Despite what Mirva and Gye Bennetts have said, TCOL is not a "pop record." I think it is better than Poseidon, Islands, Beat and Perfect Pair, which puts it in the middle of the pack for me. It's well worth owning, even if it isn't a great album. David Voci wrote "the Beatles infamous 'Butcher Cover' album on VeeJay records the from 1963 or 64 featuring the band dismembering little infant dolls? Now that's a Beatles LP worth owning (purely for collectibility purposes). This was truly their most avant garde moment." Wasn't the 'Butcher Cover' for RCA (USA)? Like many songwriters and musicians, the Beatles considered their songs and albums their "babies." RCA would chop up their LPs, add non-LP single and EP tracks, and make more "product" by cutting down the number of songs on each LP. Hence we had albums like "Meet the Beatles," "Yesterday ... and Today," "The Beatles Second Album," the original "Yellow Submarine" disk, "Something New," "Beatles '65," "Hey Jude," "Beatles VI," etc. RCA also threw the recordings into fake stereo and added reverb, which was against their contract. I heard that RCA was printing up and packaging the Butcher Baby cover when someone took a look, and said, "Hey we can't release this!" A small handfull, indeed, made their way out to the public. As for avant-garde Beatle moments, how about the film "Yellow Submarine," "Revolution #9," and "Rain," which written from a reel tape put backwards on a machine? Sincerely, Bill Jacobson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 12:51:48 -0400 From: "Timothy W Cox" Subject: correction Please forgive the typing error in my previous post. I wrote "consistent for the first (15) years" and meant to type (5) which should probably be (6) since it was 69-74. My hasty typing often resembles symptoms of dyslexia. >While Groon has nice passages and jams complete, it is really track 5, the improv, that resembles most the soloing of John Mclaughlin on Summit Studios.< It is on Mahuvishnu's "The Inner Mounting Flame" that the Fripp-McLaughlin similarities are most apparent. This is definitely a compliment to both players. McLaughlin is a more energetic player though and perhaps in 71' even a better guitarist. >Basic human emotion and sensitivity comes more from something non sexual and something more spiritual I would think< I agree. Firstly, I believe Alice Cooper is married and a born again Christian (if these two points are relevant) and secondly, can we save the butt plugging commentary for the rainbow channel or something. Paaleese!! I don't want to know if someone is having sex with sheep or exhibiting other biological/mental errors lets stick to the music!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 16:02:31 EDT From: willit1946 at aol dot com Subject: The Creator Has a Master Plan Just to put the record straight. It was Boz not Mel Collins who introduced "The Creator Has A Master Plan", during the Summit recording. You see, Boz was/is a fan of Leon Thomas, and sometimes during improvised passages, Boz would yodel. He got this directly from Leon Thomas. I know, because we discussed it. In fact, Boz turned me on to Leon too. By the way, Boz, Mel and myself were huge fans of the John Coltrane Quartet with Elvin Jones, McCoy Tyner and Jimmy Garrison. It just didn't happen to come from there. Sincerely, Ian Wallace, the drummer who happened to be playing at the time. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 18:02:06 CDT From: "Trey Five Winds" Subject: To Be Or Not To Be Crimson -- a reply to Tim Cox made public. Thank you for your reply. It seems my post was successful in starting a discussion which I feel is relevant. Your views are understood and you make good points. Please send it into E.T. so that others can feed off of the discussion!!!! That is the whole purpose of E.T. isn't it. And yes, Waters lyrics are uniquely grand!!! Thanks for the shared wisdom, Tim Cox To Toby: I am including all of this, at Tim Cox's request, as he feels it is relevant to a recent discussion in ET. If you must edit, and I totally understand, please do so kindly. Thanks for reading and (maybe) posting, Trey Five Winds. ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Trey Five Winds" >To: >Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 5:11 PM >Subject: To be Crimson or not to be...a reply to your post You have brought up some interesting questions in your post on the latest Elephant Talk...one that I feel that as a musician and audient, I feel somewhat qualified to answer. So, as the saying goes, here is my tuppence. Although a bit pedantic, I'm going to go by your post bit by bit (at least, the bits I disagree with) -- I hope you don't mind. And let me preface all of this by saying it's good to hear from another Roger Waters fan (a rare species, and a species of which I am able to claim some heritage -- it get's rarer these days, I must admit.) even though I had problems accessing the linc you provided -- something about errors displaying the linc. But, in reading the questions, I can agree with you -- these are important issues, and lie at the heart of the audience/musician relationship. As a fan of Crimson -- even an "unconditional" fan, just to warn you ahead of time -- I strongly posit that the recording of "The ConstruKction Of Light" is a recording that only King Crimson could have done, and only in their current form. I do now find it difficult to conceive how the Double Trio could have recorded it. I think part of this is due to the circumstances under which Crim's members "found" and "worked with" the music in its original form(s), i.e. the ProjeKcts, and with Bill and Tony out of the picture (for VASTLY differing reasons, I note), it seems that the music would obviously take very different directions in its Sound Quality alone. I must also state that, I believe from reading ET that most of the readers have a problem with the SOUND of the music, rather than the music itself. Sound and notes are two very different things; a C note on a guitar has a distinctly different shape, quality, and nuance, not to mention aural pattern, than a C on a harp, a trombone, a talking drum, or a hurdy-gurdy. It's still considered a C note, mind you -- This comes from a function of melody, harmony and all that other polyphonic stuff -- but it still equals C in pitch. When Robert talks about "listening THROUGH the music rather than AT it," I believe he's approaching or indirectly addressing the status quo about this area, whether he intends to or not, as well as other issues of the music at hand. You can, for example, take the note pitches from any of Robert's Soundscapes and transpose them for piano and/or harp or any other suitably ranged instrument, and "compositionally," you would have the equivalent of the same thing -- but not the same thing itself. Robert recognises, as do all listeners of music (to my knowledge), that the sound of the pitches is as important, even more so at times, than the pitches themselves. Frank Zappa also went on about this matter in a "Guitar Magazine" interview article; regrettably, I cannot recall which one. But it was quite an issue with him, from what I remember of the interview (very little actually, only that this point was repeatedly raised, and this was how my attention was brought to the topic). So, I've said all of that to say this -- Is the record to everyone's taste? In sound, I would have to say not, especially from what I have been reading on ET. But what about composition? I'm not so sure I would say the same thing. I think several readers (I'm not referring to you here, just several in general) MAY be hearing the sounds more than the notes, and it's in between the notes that we get the music. But, if you don't like the SOUND of it, then the notes probably don't mean a darned thing. How do we deal with this, than? Trust the artist. Or, that's how I deal with it. I personally like the CD and all of the sounds on it, because it sounds very different from any other Crimson CD (Though most all of them have that quality), and it DOES NOT sound like "THRAK." If the Double Trio were able to stay together long enough to record another album that sounded exactly like "THRAK," either by notes or sounds, I would have been a bit disappointed. I also like the CD sounds because I can sill hear that "Crimson" quality through it, even in an environment totally foreign to what MY idea of the ideal Crimson environment is (and everyone has one). The band therefore, in my opinion, has taken a risk that has payed off, and my own perspective on the matter has been increased by not only their experiment, but by my ability to listen through it and hear what they are going for. Besides, though not trying to justify anything, being a musician, I can understand the reasons behind change and why change and development must be constantly practised. After all, I'd be bored with the same band sound -- not to mention bass sound -- if I only played it one way like that for years on end. Speaking from experience, I HAVE played it one way for years on end -- I know about boredom quite well. On the lyrics bit, I disagree a little bit, but can see your point and understand it, and, being a long-time lyricist myself who's tried it both ways, I can see and agree with your side of the argument. I like most of the lyrics on this album, but words are an imperfect communication and can always be improved. Though I do like the words and feel that Adrian is a very good lyricist, I must admit I like the record more for the overall thing. I used to be a big stickler about lyrics (I am a Roger Waters fan, after all, and I LOVED his lyrics), but, ironically enough, it was Belew's work in Crimson that showed me a different side to it. But I can sympathise, nonetheless. Not a problem with your post as much as an observation from one who has long experience with words. On Trey Gunn as a musician? I feel he's very good -- and incredibly brave. I would love to see the view from his position -- but I'm not sure I could ever want to BE in his position! I think the man has his own vision; I can hear this in his playing on any of the Crim stuff he's involved in, and I've heard enough of the Trey Gunn band to know that he has his own interactive vision there -- but his visions agree with the MUSIC on hand. King Crimson inhabits SEVERAL different bodies simultaneously , remember -- and some, undoubtedly, are better conduits than others. I hear him very cleanly, although I must agree that I do like the bass just a bit louder. But then, I'm a former bass player, so I'm biased. Also, it doesn't threaten to take over. It did in the Double Trio -- and I loved that edge to it -- but, over time, I felt, perhaps it should have come down a little bit. Maybe it has come down too far,for my tastes, but I love the tones; they are very smooth and rounded to me, a sound I am becoming fonder of in my late years (I'm 26). On the other musicians, I feel simply compelled to say that I can see why you would feel that way about them, but I disagree, and leave it like that. Adrian and Pat, to me make very good conduits for the Crimson King, and this has proven to be the ideal combination -- for me, at least, and presently. Though as Robert himself has stated, in Crimson, anything can change. To get back to your original intent (which I apologise as I may have seem to have overridden that aim), what do I feel is Crimson music? And what should it possess? Here, I am afraid I must get rather simple..... The only thing I ask of Crimson music is that it contains resonance and as little interference as possible. I have heard that resonance on almost every Crimson album out there (though I wonder about "Islands" -- perhaps a future listening may be in order), and with "THRaKaTTaK," it came closer to having more of it, because of the conduit of improvisation. There, I feel, that there was less interference with the transmission and reception of that resonance than on any other recording. I am certain that ProjeKct X will contain some of those same types of thrills and chills (even if they sound different) and look forward to hearing them on CD and live. And for the second part: What should Crimson music possess? As much as the King can put into it of course. Assuming that its musicians can receive the messages without blowing the translation too far off the map (it's a human frailty, I'm afraid -- though they have gotten better about that). Like you, I find value in even the shortest moments, and respect your views on persisting in trying to find them. If I have taken too long, I apologise and thank you for taking the time to read this (however much of it you could stand to read). I also would like to thank you for the question itself, which was quite insightful to me, and, actually a much more valuable question on this magazine than I have seen in a while. And I've seen a few. I am replying in private because I am not sure Toby would want ALL of this on ET, and so that you get this from the horse's mouth rather than a sympathetic rear end (only a joke, Toby); feel free to reply back in private, if you wish. Best Wishes, Trey Five Winds. "Music is when the musician disappears." Trey Gunn -- Bass Touch Guitarist/Baritone Guitarist, King Crimson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 18:32:06 -0500 From: "Aaron P Deglanville" <"aaron_deglanville"@uhc.com> Subject: criticisms of KC Tim Cox: your opinions in "To Be Crimson or Not to Be" include criticisms of both King Crimson and Adrian Belew, and are thus not admissable for discussion here at ET. This is a FAN site. That means the topics under discussion are "How Much I Love King Crimson" and "How Much I Hate People Who Don't Love Everything About King Crimson". We must adhere to these topics in the interest of keeping discussion interesting. You're not a "True" fan! Die!!! DIE!!! best regards, aa ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 20:35:39 -0500 From: "Aaron P Deglanville" <"aaron_deglanville"@uhc.com> Subject: what is King Crimson? >What is "Crimson" music? "King Crimson", despite RF's occasional indication of it as having a kind of objective, independent existence, is really just whatever Fripp thinks it is. I may bemoan the fact that he actually thought "Thrak" was worthy of being released as "King Crimson", but it's hard to escape the fact that the definition is set by whatever music RF brands as such. Like it or not, Palmer-James' bringing a Rembrandt to poetic life is as King Crimson as Belew's "get set...get wet...gettin' jiggy wid it" wordplay. Though I personally love "Discipline" and "TCoL", I would agree: KC pre- and post- 80s simply sounds like two different bands--and that Belew's best solo work is stronger than "King Adrian". But I'm still pretty happy to be able to say that I'm going to see a band called King Crimson for three nights in SF. aa P.S. Does anyone know how to contact the Bay Area chapter of ET? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 21:24:37 -0500 From: "Aaron P Deglanville" <"aaron_deglanville"@uhc.com> Subject: ProzaKc Belews >> I would hope most on this list realize that the >>posts here have little or no impact on Crim. Better reread that first verse of "ProzaKc Blues" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 22:08:19 -0500 From: Barbara Boyer Subject: Lizard Interpretation The following is for the gentleman who asked for help with interpreting Lizard. I don't know if this will answer all of your questions, but I have interpreted the Lizard composition in the following way: I think you are correct about the piece being about rebellion in the beginning, but I think the entire composition is a symbolic one about rebellion...failed rebellion. I see it as a haunting and very sad piece of music. "Prince Rupert Awakes" is a song about a leader and the beginning of the movement he leads. Is it positive, hopeful, magical...and refers to the enemy, Lizard...and bids farewell to "The temple master's bells, his kiosk and his black worm seed." Certainly a people's rebellion against tyranny and control. "Prince Rupert's Peacock" brings tales of freedom and plenty. Notice that "bolero" is dreamy and utopian and grand at first, but soon falls into dirty jazz patterns. I interpret this to symbolize the members of the uprising falling into vice and drunken revelry, unwisely celebrating victory before the battles have been fought. This is the reason for the ultimate failure...the crack in the wall which leads to the destruction of the movement. Next comes "the battle of glass tears". This would seem silly wordplay to someone who does not consider that glass is technically a liquid, a very slow moving liquid. Over time, it will take up the container in which it is placed, but this may take centuries. Thus the "battle of glass tears" becomes a metaphor for the failure of mankind in general to make progress morally without centuries of struggle and inertia. The rebellion is well-meaning, but since the tears are glass, it will fail, as the change in state of mind is not swift and decisive enough. This is borne out through the instrumental section, after the short section describing the battle imagery. Notice the similarities between the two parties' theme songs....the rebel's theme is the wide open, ascending figure wheras the Lizard's theme is the constrained, 3 chord, brass horn figure. This second figure is very jazz oriented, underscoring the symbolic role of dark, dirty jazz in Lizard as evil overtaking the side of good. (The combining of the two sides' themes in the battle sequence is akin to the battle sequences in the 1812 overture) Literally, "Last skirmish" is the last, final, desperate effort by the rebels. It follows a very "authoritative" aribesque in the same register and tambre as the Lizard's jazz theme, and it may symbolize a kind of "terms of surrender" meeting. But symbolically, this can be taken in many different metaphorical ways, containing the general theme of will vs. authority, good vs. control. Last Skirmish symbolizes any last desperate stand for the cause of good. From here on out, the interpretation, to me, is really quite simple. In the aftermath of the defeat, Prince Rupert cries and laments his letting the revolt fail due to the vice and carelessness. "Big Top" has been often described as humor. How narrow minded! Big Top's "Merry go round in hell" feeling is the perfect symbol to end Lizard, it's theme is that the tyranny of the old world is back, and although it looks peaceful and nice on the outside it is really a maddening hell. I hope this helps. Kurt Boyer ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 23:15:25 EDT From: Mfortfam at aol dot com Subject: Re: Abbey Road vs ItCotCK Darryl asked, a couple of ETs ago: << Excuse me for not being born until the 70's, but which was released first: ABBEY ROAD or ITCOTCK? >> _Abbey Road_ was released in September 1969. (I'd have to dig out a Beatles reference book from my basement for the specific date, but it was September according to a couple of handier books.) _ItCotCK_ was released the following month: October 10th, according to the journal entry in the _Frame By Frame_ booklet; or October 12th, according to the liner notes in the 30th Anniversary Edition. P, L & U - Mark F. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 00:41:31 EDT From: Tombone98 at aol dot com Subject: Mike Keneally Todd Madson say: << Has anyone read Mike Keneally's interesting review of TCoL on the site "www.noneforyoudear.com"? >> Thank you, Todd. Everybody needs to check out Mike Keneally! Go to now. You can thank me & Todd later! Tommy McIntosh ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 13:03:44 +0200 From: Gnad Markus Subject: ET logo Interesting talk: E In The Court Of The Crimson King L Tony Levin E Robert Fripp P Adrian Belew H In The Wake Of Poseidon A In The Court Of The Crimson King N John Wetton T Bill Bruford T Mike Giles A Greg Lake ??? L Trey Gunn K Boz ??? Toby??? [ No, I'm not in it. :-) -- Toby ] Cheers Markus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 13:04:46 +0200 From: Gnad Markus Subject: Guitar Craft Hi all, who of you is going to attend the Guitar Craft Level One Course next January in Italy? Please email me at: mag at liwest dot at Thanks all Markus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 16:13:17 +0200 From: "Girard, Serge [JanBe Extern]" Subject: TCOL > Hi Folks, > For all of you who don't like TCOL : put it away for a couple of months (or years) and then listen carefully; it improves everyday ( indeed; like a fine wine should ). Bye, Serge ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 10:47:55 -0400 From: "Dave Schroeder" Subject: Re: Timothy W Cox In response to Mr. Cox's question about "What is crimson music? and What do we feel crimson music should posses?" I will keep this short and simple...It is not for us to deside but for those in the band who create it. Every album that has been created by 'KING CRIMSON' has definitley deserved the name. I have always been astounded by every KC recording, and instead of desiphering every note and every lyric of every song, I turn it up and just ENJOY ... many listens seem to forgotten how to do this!!! WHAT A SHAME!!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 11:28:51 -0400 From: "Heilbronner, Mike" Subject: See Thela Hun Ginjeet Live -- Les Claypool's Band of Frog's As indicated, Les Claypool's current band is starting it's shows with King Crimson and filling them with Pink Floyd. Below is my summary of Friday night's show in Portland (written for an audience not familiar with KC). The band is on the east coast this week. I highly recommend it. The show was a bit insane. Very good musically, and very, very crazy. As previewed, the setlist included one King Crimson song (Thela Hun Ginjeet); all of Shine on You Crazy Diamond; all of Pink Floyd "Animals"; "Riders on the Storm" (Doors) a couple of songs that seemed like Primus tunes (i.e., the audience knew them -- and I didn't) and the encore was an amazing version of the Beatles "Tax Man" -- amazing b/c, if you know Tax Man, it has a catchy, almost funky bass riff the whole way through, which suits Les Claypool well. Most in the audience were young Primus type fans, seemingly on Ecstasy and/or other drugs/alcohol. Very hyper. Most seemed to have no clue that the band was going to play what they ended up playing. I had no clue that a Primus crowd is a very physical (to the point of mild violence) crowd, especially the men in the front of the stage. When he saw that things were getting a little rough in front of the stage, Les Claypool implored everyone to keep the "jackass" quotient down and maintain the jackass equilibrium. His request was largely ignored. I eventually had to flee from the front of the stage, where I normally like to watch music b/c things were getting too weird and physical for me. I suspect this is standard fare at most rock shows these days. During the 2d set, they had to stop the show for about 15 minutes and call an ambulance b/c some chick got pounded once too hard (there weren't many women in the front) and passed out and was lopped onto the stage (thankfully), where she waited until the medics showed up. As I said, musically the show was very good. As expected, lots of intense soloing. Not the jammy type I see at Phish shows though. Much more hard-core rock stuff. Indeed, this was a rock show to the core and to a fault during the King Crimson song b/c they substituted a keyboard solo during the part where Adiran Belew (guitar) normally plays some very distorted, strange stuff. This was a bad substitution. The Pink Floyd material was excellent, however, as David Gilmour's guitar is a bit easier to emulate. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 10:56:02 -0500 From: "David F. Snyder" Subject: Headless hoarsemen; on the Rhodes again; what is crimson music >Subject: Adrian Belew and KC > ... Because this is a digest to discuss things Crim and a band without Ade is >certainly a worthy topic. I think discussing Crim without Fripp to be an even more interesting topic; most interesting would be a Crim without anybody at all playing in it! Now that would be something! > ... the >posts here have little or no impact on Crim. ... so there is a God after all. :) ****** >- How extensive a role did Robert play in the PG band for this tour? >- Is that Robert on those very conventional backing/rhythm guitars? >- If that's not Robert, then who *is* playing those other guitar parts? Interestingly enough, David Rhodes played on that tour. Fripp played on the album, yes. But so did Rhodes (and he also did vocals!). I'm sure "Dusty" refers to Mr. Rhodes. He has performed with Tori Amos, more recently with Saro Cosentino (with TGunn on that same album). Great musician. ******* >All of the above are my personal ramblings and I seek discussion from the >E.T. community on only two of the topics. What is crimson music? Perhaps crimson music is a spoken secret that you can only understand if you don't understand it. >do we feel crimson music should posses? The qualities of quality. > I do except the >repercussions of honesty and even the unintentional hypocrisy.. I accept that you except the repercussions. :) ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 00 10:29:47 -0700 From: "David Voci" Subject: Slukes In 727 Jan pondered: >greetings crimlings, >does anybody know what the ProjeKct 1 titles mean? >slukes, you know Jan, I have been curious about this since day 1 of owning this glorious box. One possible explanation that I could think of and to start a train of thought that maybe the titles tie in with the December 1-4 recording dates and represent the track in the set list for each respective event the tracks were culled from. Example: 4 ii 1 = Dec 4, set 2, song 1 It's a start. Which reminds me, the P4 box set still stands out in my mind to be one of the best offerings of music the crimcamp has bestowed upon us for a long time and I will probably listen to this set(thanks Jan for the hint)later on this evening. What is 'slukes'? and the word 'crimlings' is surely a gas too. Be Well, dv ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 15:53:42 EDT From: LTheDwarf at aol dot com Subject: Re: Fake KC Cd Hi Eter's I've seen last Saturday in a local used cd store a fake KD cd: King Crimson : Greatest Hits, no mention in the cover or inside about any record company and a fake barcode (!) The tracks are ranging from ITCOTKC to 3OAPP, they are not all correctly writen. I've listened the beginning of each track: it's a pure copy of the official studio versions. It's not a CDR copy but a factory pressed CD. (may be from russia ?) I've not bought it, but if there's a crimsoholic who wants it, email me and I'll come back to take it and send it to you at no additional charge . IMHO, there's no interest to buy it, but who knows... Fabrice Vaillant (FRANCE) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 16:09:22 -0400 From: Brian Preston Subject: Claypool's new band I didnt know Les was doing that... but the SF scene spawns many of the old "friends" into these various groups... when I went to Les' 'Rancho Relaxo' for a party with their manager (an old high school friend of mine from North Carolina) , all those guys were there and also Kirk Hammett from Metallica ( a nice guy, we grilled out tuna on Les' grill there) and the Alphabet Soup guys, I dont know all who... their pool side studio was a f____in' mess (sorry Les). (Also in that bunch are Micheal Manring, Melvins, and Charlie Hunter.) Unfortunately Primus has never had really great recording quality and I guess they are going for the "I dont care" mentality, which I guess is OK for some folks. By the way, when I was there (June 1995) was for the Crim at Warfield Theater, 3 nights of Thrack! I flew from Chapel Hill, NC to SF for the shows. Thank the gods for frequent flier miles, eh? GREAT shows!! One of My previous bands (Freehand) did Thela Hun Ginjeet, Matte Kudasai, Lament, and Red. :) that was fun. bye now... Basses/production Smokin'Granny/Freehand/Onomata Metaphoric Music Productions 2606 Newquay St. Durham, NC 27705 919-382-2972 ph 919-382-8752 fax davido42.home.mindspring.com/smokingranny ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 16:12:47 -0400 From: Brian Preston Subject: RED remaster Gulp. WOW... thanks for the info dudes!!!!!!! The original certainly had a hazy brown sheen across it - I dont think they used very good mic pres, or else they compressed the shit out of it. They must have run the re master through pro tools and re-EQ'd it as well as re- mixing it, aye? Basses/production Smokin'Granny/Freehand/Onomata Metaphoric Music Productions 2606 Newquay St. Durham, NC 27705 919-382-2972 ph 919-382-8752 fax davido42.home.mindspring.com/smokingranny ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 21:30:57 EDT From: EricVWDC at aol dot com Subject: True Music Receptacles In a message dated 8/27/00 2:26:10 PM, et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk writes: << Dear non-fans, I am writing this for the non-fans of Belew-era KC and/or TCOL, and I will keep it short. Granted everybody is entitled his or her own opinion, some opinions posted on this newsletter are really just plain getting old. It's simple. If you don't like a particular album or performer, then don't listen to it. Very easy. . . . . . . . What the hell you have all these "Belew Complainers" done for music lately?? Exactly. Nada. So maybe next time you feel like complaining about Crimson or some other amazing music, you should take a trip to your local CD store and pick up some other music like The Dave Mathews Band, or maybe even an N' Sync album. >> Ha!!! I am so grateful for every note that procedeth from the mouth of the Crimson King, that instead of acknowledging that something they have produced did not meet my expectations (no artist every truly meets any fan's expectations, btw), I instead choose to appreciate the message that is being conveyed by the artists, and relish every part of it that I DO like. As it turns out, I like 99% of it. So why dwell on the 1% that I simply don't connect with? I think a 1% non-connection is acceptable. On the other hand, when listening to N'Sync, and realizing that there is absolutely no artistry involved in that production, and that it is nothing more than ear candy for 13 year olds, I am perfectly correct in turning it off. There is no message being conveyed. It is merely a performance done for the sake of performing. It is totally empty. No soul. No message. No intelligence. Music is not speaking during such a production. This is why listening to such noise leads a true musical receptacle to the point of reacting violently (if necessary) in order to escape such inharmonious noise. Such a receptacle feels violated listening to such a production. Thus, my question to anyone complaining about TCOL is this: do you feel violated listening to it? Is it empty or soulless? Or did it simply not meet your expectations, which are never clearly defined enough to be identified, in which case, such an argument becomes void? I submit that critics of TCOL are bitching for the sake of hearing themselves bitch, and are not cognizant enough to understand the true nature of the MUSIC contained in that recording. Such a shame, too. It is a brilliant record, warts and all. Eric VanderWerff, D.C. Irving, TX P.S. If any of the powers that be are reading this, please tell the Trey Gunn Band to get their asses to Dallas soon!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 14:58:36 +0200 From: Gnad Markus Subject: Trey Gunn Hi all, some of you seem to make a living out of making me depressive by proudly presenting the tour dates for Trey Gunn on this Fanzine. Just AmeriKcan tour dates? No-body knows of some tour dates in Europe, mainly Austria? (Maybe just a rhetorical question, I suppose Trey will never hit this tiny little state...) Cheers all Markus ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #729 ********************************