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Subject: Elephant Talk #723


               E L E P H A N T    T A L K

        The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp
              and King Crimson enthusiasts

                        Number 723

                 Thursday, 3 August 2000

Today's Topics:

   Wetton, Beatles, cats, Sinfield and baked cakes
   Frippless Crimson, female Crimson & Belew songs
   In Defense of Adrian Belew
   Superman and King Crimson
   Response about HDCD
   Re: Adrian's vocals sound too Beatle-esque at times?
   Keith Tippett's diet
   Queen Ruby and the Schizoids?
   An old question of mine
   Moles Club
   Better off without fans?
   Bjork_once_more
   Bjork,Brittany Spears,& What?
   A band can be the most highly
   Belew and Fripp
   Personal Position
   Fripp & Bjork?
   Re: The Immoralist and Nostalgia vs. Moving on..
   It's All Just Talk.......
   Adrian Belew sounding like John Lennon
   What is wrong with KC fans today
   _The Great Deceiver_
   another female vocalist
   Belew for now and future/ and david Byrne influence
   Personal KCollection

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------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A ---------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 10:36:05 +0100
From: Sandy Starr <s dot starr at cScape dot com>
Subject: Wetton, Beatles, cats, Sinfield and baked cakes

Judging by the number of people in ET #720 and ET #721 who describe
versions of KC songs by John Wetton, on his own and with others, it seems
that he's spent a lot of his time building on this repertoire! He's also a
dab hand at the covers/tribute market, playing on an Emerson, Lake and
Palmer tribute album and playing KC/Genesis material on the Steve Hackett
albums Genesis Revisted and The Tokyo Tapes.

At first I thought that this was a bad (nostalgic etc.) thing, but then I
thought, hey, why not? I defend the decision of the current KC incarnation
to draw only from recent repertoire, but I've nothing more broadly against
older material by KC and others being given a good contemporary work-out.
And if there's a man for the job, it's John Wetton! I'm not familiar with
his newer material, but I'm sure it has its own merits.

John Ott writes in ET #120, in response to my request for opinions on the
Asia version of 'Starless':

>>You trust the turd's opinions  more than your Fathers ???<<

No, John, I don't 'trust' the turd's opinion's over my father's. But my
father and I sometimes disagree in our musical tastes (and often agree as
well :-). He is a big Asia fan and I'm not, to give one example. So I was
just asking ETers about the Asia 'Starless' to have a diversity of opinion.

Also in ET #120, Tony Evans writes:

>>If anything Beatle-esque shows up at all in recent Crimso music, it's in
the music itself. I hear subtle hints of "I Want You (She's so Heavy)" in
"People" and "I Am the Walrus" in "Dinosaur".<<

I can hear broad similarities between 'I Am the Walrus' and 'Dinosaur', but
I can't hear 'I Want You' in 'People'. I'll take your word for it though.
It would be no bad thing, because I think that 'I Want You' is the BEST
Beatles song ever - it's amazing! Anybody agree?

In ET #721 Jan Geerts writes:

>>for years, the crazy sounds of Pink Floyd, Van Der Graaf Generator,
Hawkwind , techno and dnb, Miles' early fusion, King Crimson... have been
booming through my house, and my cats didn't mind.  But if they hear a few
moments from any ProjeKct, they split!  And I thought they had good taste.<<

As a KC-lover and a cat-lover, I had to laugh when I read this. You know
what really pisses off cats, in my experience? The instrumental 'The
Waiting Room' from The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway by Genesis. The sound
effects on that tune really sound like cats miaowing!

In ET #721, David Vella has some interesting responses to a few remarks I
made in ET #719. David says:

>>Well, I agree that AB's lyrics work well with KC, but I don't see why
defending one lyricist necessitates knocking another. Sinfield's lyrics also
worked well (in a different way) with KC music and in my opinion, the
Fripp/Sinfield collaboration has earned its rightful place in history, and
deserves the same consideration we might give someone like
Lennon/McCartney.<<

Sorry David, when I said in ET #719 that 'just because Pete Sinfield thinks
lyrics should be dense and descriptive doesn't mean that's the only way to
do it,' I wasn't knocking Sinfield. For me, Sinfield's lyrics range from
the beautiful to the preposterous to the downright sexy ('Ladies of the
Road').  And even on those songs where I don't like his lyrics, I never
find that they detract from the song as a whole. (No offence to Sinfield,
but I do maintain that reading the lyrics to the first three KC albums out
loud, in a deadpan voice, whilst drunk, is so much fun that it should be
made a national sport.)

In Sinfield's favour, I would point you to his excellent lyrics for
'Memoirs of an Officer and a Gentleman' on Emerson, Lake and Palmer's Love
Beach album. This is something really different coming from good old PS,
with nary a lizard nor a crimson king in sight. (I know the album cover's
hilarious - they should have made a comemmorative postcard of it - but put
that aside and listen to the music.)

David then says:

>>Furthermore I don't buy the Music/Literature Schism - literature can be
lyrical and thereby enhanced (ever read Kerouac?  As in Jack? As in Neal &
Jack & Me?).  Likewise, music can be literate and thereby enhanced (we can
all think of examples besides the Fripp/Sinfield KC, right?  Joni Mitchell?
Leonard Cohen?  Simon & Garfunkel?  Others?)<<

You're absolutely right David, it's not a schism, and your examples are
apposite. All I was implying was that music/literature isn't an obvious
monolithic entity either, so although 'The World's My Oyster Soup Kitchen
Floor Wax Museum' might not look as good on paper as, say, 'Scarborough
Fair' by Simon and Garfunkel, in the context of the delicious noise that
surrounds it it works perfectly. There is, as you suggest, room for both
great literary verbosity and for great abstract playfulness in the world of
lyric writing!

David then says, in response to a cake analogy that I used to defend the
magic of musical collaboration:

>>for some people, analyzing IS an act of celebration.  There are probably
two kinds of people for which this is true.  Those for whom analysis is a
way of life (scientists, mathematicians, philosophers, for starters....) and
those who have a vested interest in the analysis.  Let me explain the latter
group.  Continuing with the cake analogy, if your only interest is in EATING
a cake, then there is no point to analysis.  But if your interest also
includes BAKING a cake, then you have a vested interest in the analysis.
That is to say, a chef would definitely be interested in knowing which
aggregate of cake ingredients conspire to create the integrated taste, and
would find strange your suggestion that they just taste the aggregate
without trying to understand it.  For a chef, therefore, they celebrate the
cake by both tasting it and by analyzing it.  Their joy is multi-layered.
Similarly, a musician celebrates music by both listening and analyzing the
various parts.  Their joy is multi-layerd.<<

I think this misses the point, David. I love analysis, and agree that it is
an act of celebration. My first experience of this was in music class when
I was 13, going through the parts of Bach's second Brandenburg Concerto in
detail, and then stepping back and listening to the whole with a richer
understanding and appreciation of it. But I think that this kind of
analysis is a different thing from pedantically attributing the
contribution of band members. Once a band takes on its moniker - once
you're listening to 'King Crimson' as opposed to 'These four guys' - then
analysis, I would suggest, can benefit from IGNORING the specifics of
individual contribution, at least at the level of composition.

So if you take 'FraKctured' for example, you could write a great analysis
of that piece describing exactly which instruments are doing what, and even
how the music relates to 'Fracture', without ever addressing the fact that
Fripp supposedly _wrote_ the piece. Or to use another band as an example, I
like listening to XTC albums (each of which tends to have about four songs
by Colin Moulding and the rest by Andy Patridge) and _ignoring_ who wrote
what, for the sake of addressing the band at the level of a collaborative
entity.

I guess the most popular example is the Beatles. George Harisson wrote a
smattering of (often very good) tunes for the Beatles, and people tend to
pay a lot of attention to this fact when looking at those tunes, because
they set great store by the Lennon/McCartney songwriting myth. I think it's
more conducive to an appreciation of the Beatles, and even to an analysis
of specific songs, to ignore compositional authorship completely. I know
that sounds strange and postmodern, but I'm convinced of it.

With recorded (as opposed to scored) music, I think you can only
meaningfully attribute authorship at the level of the recording group. The
cake is only properly baked there, whereas with scored music like
Beeethoven's Ninth, the cake is baked inside Beethoven's head.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 12:23:19 +0200
From: BUISSEZ Laurent <laurent dot buissez at culture dot gouv dot fr>
Subject: Frippless Crimson, female Crimson & Belew songs

If Robert don't want to play live, why not having 2 Crimsons (studio or
live) like we had 2 Beach Boys, with and without Brian Wilson, on stage or
on disc ? And why a 3 piece Crimson ? why not a quartet with an other
guitar player ? And why suggesting a female member only as a singer and not
an instrumentist ? Jennifer Batten for instance ?
By the way, speaking of Adrian's songs that are supposed to always sound
like Belew songs, do the tracks on "The guitar as orchestra" really sound
like "typical Belew songs" ?

Laurent BUISSEZ

Nom : BUISSEZ Laurent
Mel : buissez at culture dot fr
Tel : 04 72 00 43 12
Adr : DRAC RHONE-ALPES
      6 quai St-Vincent
      69283 LYON CEDEX 01

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 16:01:59 GMT
From: "Cedric Hendrix" <cedrichendrix at hotmail dot com>
Subject: In Defense of Adrian Belew

Greetings,

   I see it's starting again.  The Belew-bashing that makes my blood boil.
Oh, you're trying to mask it with back-handed compliments and qualifiers.
But I see what you're doing.
   There's one universal truth about Crimson fans ... You can't make them
happy, no matter what. And you can't take half of them out of 1974. No
matter how interesting or innovative the material, ETers seem to want
nothing more than to pick it apart, and re-invent a wheel that was just
re-invented.
   Well, it's time for the much-needed pro-Adrian rant.  To wit:

* It should be clear to you all the Robert and Adrian share a close
personal and professional friendship, despite all your attempts at
sabotage.

* Re: the Beatles influence.  EVERY musician, even the Much Revered Fripp,
is the sum of his influences, in addition to his own person.  Miles Davis
was influenced by Clark Terry and Fats Navarro.  Zappa was influenced by
Stravinsky and Johnny "Guitar" Watson.  So what if Adrian is influenced by
the Beatles?  Fripp has influences (Hendrix and Mozart among them, if
memory serves), and so do I.  If you play an instrument, so do you.  It's
just natural that what you've heard in the past will come out in your
playing.  The key is to give it your own touch.

* To remove Adrian is to take a lot of the personality out of this band, to
say nothing of what little personal access you have to it, since Robert
clearly wants nothing to do with you on a personal level. (This, of course,
is his choice, and one I have no problem with.)  This is to say nothing of
the very core of the current Crimson guitar sound.  The two players need
each other to make that work.

* Adrian Belew has done nothing to you, except be the very best musician he
can be in one of the most musically demanding bands on the planet. He has
added sonic diversity, humor, and creativity to a place where even he
thought he wouldn't fit.  Fortunately, Fripp knew better.

   My point?  Simple.  BACK OFF!!!  If you don't like his playing, singing,
or songwriting, fine. Don't buy the damned record. Don't go to the shows.
That'll just make it more enjoyable for those of us who want to be there.
   These personal (and often anonymous) attacks are chickenshit, since I
know good and well that there aren't three people out there amongst us who
could take Adrian's place.  If you think you can, give Fripp a call, and
take your best shot.  If not, chill already, and let Adrian do his job.
   If Robert feels the need for a new singer or other musician, he'll call
for one.
   Just my opnion.  Hate mail can be sent to the usual place.

Peace,

Ced Hendrix
<cedrichendrix at hotmail dot com>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 12:03:47 -0700
From: Jym Dingler <jymd at pacbell dot net>
Subject: Superman and King Crimson

Any musician who's seen the first 26 black & white episodes of
"Superman" (1953) knows the scores for these early shows are huge,
cinematic showcases. Seeing a TV Land marathon prompted me to search out
the recently released original TV soundtrack, "The Adventures of
Superman."

When the American Federation of Musicians banned use of canned TV music
in America, producers had to either record overseas or find other ways
around the ban. The Mutel library (Music for Television) recycled and
re-recorded 1946-1949 B-movie scores into trackable format for TV
soundtracks.

From the liner notes, this pertinent discussion of the third film score
used in Superman:

"The third score was an absolute whopper  it became the backbone rhythm
of Superman's first year. If Phil Spector had teamed up with Stravinsky,
Honegger and Dukas, it would have sounded like the walls of sound on
tracks 4, 8-12, 18-21 and 33-34. The chases were orchestral dynamos with
muscular brass, pounding percussion, crashing cymbals, and soaring
string lines. The misteriosos stalked and lurched and wandered into dark
corners.

"Wrote Bruce Eder in The Village Voice, 'The quiet movements creak and
groan like Pink Floyd digesting Saint-Saens, while other sections surge
like a Prokofiev ballet in the hands of King Crimson.'"

The notes also reveal the possible source of this unusual music : "Clues
point to a score orchestrated... for a documentary concerning American
Indians  hence, the tribal-rhythmic chases and thick, struggling battle
chords heard throughout Superman's first year.... If true, what we've
been hearing in Superman all these years are Native American idioms
transformed into weird musical shapes by a Prussian modernist, with a
whole-tone debt to Hindemith, Honegger, and the Les Six' composers of
France."

The CD is "Adventures of Superman: The Original 1950s Television
Series," Varese Sarabande 302 066 093 2.

Cheers,
Jym Dingler
http://home.pacbell.net/jymd

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 16:40:33 EDT
From: ChalkPie88 at aol dot com
Subject: Response about HDCD

Marcin,

HDCD stands for High Definition Compatible Digital (whatever that means!!)
You need to buy a CD player equipped with HDCD in order to listen to a CD
with HDCD (confused?). In other words, a regular CD player will play an
HDCD, but It won't be a true 20-bit or 24-bit recording, unless you posess
a special HDCD-equipped CD player. (A little red HDCD light goes on when
you start playing the disc, it's pretty cool).

In any event, if you thought "Lizard" and "Islands" sounded good (which
they do) with the old versions, the new HDCD remasters sound AMAZING!!!!!
I'm really excited because "Larks", "Starless", and "Red" are all being
reissued with HDCD later this year.

I think HDCD has a website that lists CD's and players with HDCD if you
have any more questions or want real answers.

-Frank

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 16:14:23 -0500
From: Craig <v-dorje at ticnet dot com>
Subject: Re: Adrian's vocals sound too Beatle-esque at times?

>I don't hear
>anything at all resembling the phrasing, intonation, or style of either
>Lennon or McCartney.

Oh, puhleeze. Listen to "Sex, Sleep,..." AGAIN.  Even the style of the
composition (bacwards guitar bits, etc) & the lyrics to this tune, are *SO*
Beatle-esque it`s laughable, but STILL great! (Adrian himself acknowledges
his tendency to sound like them. There is even one tune on an older solo
album of his, where he intentionally creates a tune that sounds EXACTLY
like it IS by them, (called "1967" or some such). Ade`s McCartney vocal
stylism is totally to the fore. He surely does it well.  It`s not a crime.
Craig

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 18:25:46 -0400
From: Jim Bailey <jimb at ehmail dot com>
Subject: Keith Tippett's diet

In ET digest #719, John Peacock responded to a previous post with:

>> >The 'piano' solo on Oyster Soup
>>
>> ...rips.

>And sounds like Keith Tippett on Cat Food.

Did anyone else see the humour (albeit unintentional, I'm sure) in this?
Just imagine it... Keith chows down on some feline comestibles prior to a
gig... tries to sharpen his claws against one of the piano legs...  coughs
up a furball on the strings, for that "prepared" sound... then tears into a
rendition of _Kitten on the Keys_.

Oh well, please yourselves. I had a laugh anyway.

Jim Bailey

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 19:01:59 EDT
From: Boobird at aol dot com
Subject: Queen Ruby and the Schizoids?

With all the postings yearning for "those glorious days of yesteryear" in
Crimso-land, perhaps the following is a good suggestion.  Amongst all ET
subscribers should be a bass player(-vocalist?), a drummer, a
mellotronist-organist-flautist-whateverist, and a guitar player.  Thus a
band (with the suggested title name?) which only plays King Crimson tunes
from 1969 to (enter cutoff date here).  That way all the folks looking
either forward or backward will be a "happy family!"  :-)

Mark Newstrom

PS Is it true that all King Crimson bass players have made vocal
contributions to the Crimson repertoire?  (Forgive me, Toby, if this is in
the FAQ.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 19:59:47 -0300
From: "Gabriel Painceyra" <pain at ffyh dot unc dot edu dot ar>
Subject: An old question of mine

Hola ETeros:

In the liner notes from Larks' Tongues in Aspic appears as acoustic
coordinator a guy called Nick Ryan. Is this Nick Ryan the same Nicky Ryan
who used to produce Enya? Can anybody out there help me with this question?

Thanks in advance.

Cheers
Gabriel Pain (Cordoba's Raven)
Vivan King Crimson y San Lorenzo de Almagro!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 21:17:34 -0500
From: "Loren W. Claypool" <loren at theclaypools dot com>
Subject: Moles Club

Although I wasn't there for the show, my family was in Bath recently,
following the release of the KCCC release.  My son and I found the Moles
Club and checked it out.  Tiny little place with, I'm guessing, 7 foot
ceilings.  No seats and a miniature stage.  What a magnificent evening it
must have been to have practically been on stage with the band.  If you're
in Bath, check it out.

http://www.theclaypools.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 09:59:34 PDT
From: "Nancy Mack" <noodles1011 at hotmail dot com>
Subject: Better off without fans?

I was starting to get pretty bored with ET, until #720 came out.  Thank you,
David Vella, for your post.  I have to agree, Fripp would probably be a lot
happier if KC had no fans.  We are a problem lot, aren't we?  We criticize
every lineup, the equipment the band uses, and attempt to insert new members
(read: vocalists)into the band.  We take stray phrases uttered by members
and blow them seriously out of proportion.  I'm sure we are a continual
source of amusement (not to mention irritation)in our ET and guestbook
postings.

Yet, we as fans give a lot too.  We purchase new releases, merchandise and
concert tickets, spending money some of us can ill afford.  Sometimes we
have to travel long distances to concert venues, making overnight
arrangements that cost more money.  Then once the concert begins, we must
worry that someone will take a picture, wave a tape recorder around, shout
out something stupid, and Fripp will walk offstage. We're not sure how to
act.  Should we sit quietly and listen? Should we mill about, talking
amongst ourselves, the band providing nothing more than background music?

If I got up and danced, would Fripp be displeased?  I can't think of any
other band that stresses its fans out more than KC!

Yet we keep coming back for more.  Fripp is probably the only musician I
admire that I have no desire to meet in person.  I'm sure I'd say the wrong
thing & he would spit on my shoes.

I've been a loyal listener for many years. I have all the CD's. I make my
purchases from DGM to further support the musicians.  I have gone to
Crimson concerts alone, because none of my friends will go with me. (They
usually run shrieking from the room when I crank up the volume- I just
don't get it!)  so it comes down to this: If Fripp wants to play, he will.
If not, there's not a helluva lot we can do about it. For my part, I'll
gratefully accept whatever he chooses to dish out.  Because I know that at
the end of a nasty day of slave labor, fighting traffic and getting hit
with whatever daily crap Life throws at me, I can think of nothing better
than popping my earphones on and losing myself in the music.

(Now if Peter Gabriel would just release his new album before I get too old
& deaf to hear it, I would be supremely happy)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 21:02:24 +0300
From: "Jarmo Muukka" <jarmo dot muukka at quicknet dot inet dot fi>
Subject: Bjork_once_more

> Funny, funny - although "Bjork" is actually pronounced kind of like
> "Byerk"

And it's written "Bjork".

[ Well, we'll never know how it's written -- those funny top-bit characters
  didn't show up right! -- Toby ]

JMu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 13:08:28 -0500 (CDT)
From: TheMincer at webtv dot net (Ric Wilson)
Subject: Bjork,Brittany Spears,& What?

Hello,and I've gotta say this...Yeah, Bjork has the vocal range to make a
great vocalist IF the King were to ever consider a femme vocalist.  Yeah,I
think she could handle the task! She has the vocal range of a Female
"Captain Beefheart"! As for Brittney Spears, how in hell's name she even
get brought up in "Elephant Talk"? I thought I was reading "Teeny Beat" or
something. I do agree with "Darryl" however, only about the part of her
performing in the buff! Whoa,let me get my mind out of the gutter here,
MUST LOOK AT PICTURE OF GRANNY, wow, the testosterone almost got me there!
Better go listen to "Discipline", it's my only salvation...

Thanks, I had to get that out.
Ric, Krimsonite,and Dead Hippie...

http://community.webtv.net/TheMincer/TheStarlessAndBibleBlackPage/RicWilson.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 18:11:52 GMT
From: "Spear man" <spearman at hotmail dot com>
Subject: A band can be the most highly

>A band can be the most highly trained musicians in the world and if the
>music doesn't 'move' you or entertain you it means nothing.

Like Allan Holdsworth's I.O.U.

oblist NP--League of Gentlemen, next up B%2s--a Sara Lee kinda day

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 14:41:05 -0400
From: "nerval" <nerval at email dot msn dot com>
Subject: Belew and Fripp

Recently I've kept up with the discussion about whether or not Fripp should
"start over" with King Crimson from the ground up.  This may include finding
another singer for the group.  Now, I know this will be very unpopular,
but.. I really like Belew, and "Beat" is one of my favorite Crimson works.
When pressed, it seems that the guitar of Fripp gets on my nerves.  So, I
would say at least consider the possibility that Robert Fripp be the one to
go.  I know, hit me with your best shot.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 13:04:13 MDT
From: "Erik Rikala" <epicedium at hotmail dot com>
Subject: Personal Position

Which elements of our canorous King Crimson are the causation for such
polemic dialogue?  By inventing their own niche, 'Crim have become the sole
administers of a truly unique aural opiate.  Constructors of an amusing
paradigm.  It seems the struggle to comprehend their reality is probably
one of Crim's finer attributes as music. A reality in the sense that music
is an expression of emotion; where a complex conveyed emotion leads one to
wonder how the inventor sees the world. One's own taste certainly does make
for strong opinions of what is or is not the most advantageous direction
for the music to take.  Further fueling arguments derived from a personal
satisfaction (in whatever sense) the music brings.

At times, musicianship is called into question.  Technique being the medium
by which the music is made to be, varies day to day - hour by hour.
Certainly Crim have had their off days, as anyone would.  Though the
overall consistency in technical performance by musicians on this level (in
any group) leads me to find critiques based wholly on technique hollow.

As music progresses, so will instrumentation.  One's preference for one
texture versus another (i.e. v-drums vs. acoustic) are again rooted in past
experience which has molded another opinion, or expectation.  Of course we
are all entitled to opinions; though analysis of their origins can lead to
an introspective journey which yields answers to why one thinks the way one
does.  Not to say one is right or wrong for feeling either way about an
issue - just that opinions which take hold of the perceived relevance
regarding an instruments ability to serve the emotion of a work
appropriately is more rewarding to one's self and those listening.  Rather
than dismissing something as "not good" or "bad".

All in all, the seraphic fervor with which Crimson delivers their craft is
evidence of the care taken to present the works to an audience. An audience
which reciprocates with gratitude and respect. Robert Fripp is a free
thinker who has inspired and continues to inspire musicians.  I make no
argument for him as an individual, or his preferences during performances,
only as a musician.  Many things make Crimson great and make it "ours" as
well.  I look forward to seeing them in the U.S.

Just my two bits,

Erik

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 15:56:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Brian Thomson, Dublin IE" <bnt at email dot com>
Subject: Fripp & Bjork?

I've only just noticed this discussion, since I'm on holiday and am not
following ET closely anyway, but:

Doesn't anyone remember that Robert was approached a year or so ago by
Bjork's keyboardist, asking whether it would be OK if Bjork did a cover of
one of his songs? I believe the song was "Sister Mary" from "Exposure".
Robert's wrote about this in his DGM Diary, saying "yes" and being quite
complementary about Bjork in general.

Personally, I like Bjork, but I feel she could benefit from a little
"Discipline" in her music - at times, she's all over the place! 8{

Brian Thomson
bnt at email dot com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 17:27:52 EDT
From: BHersey966 at aol dot com
Subject: Re: The Immoralist and Nostalgia vs. Moving on..

 Just wanted to add something to the lingering  nostalgia vs. moving forward
 argument/discussion.

   From 'The Immoralist' by Andre Gide

     "Because I don't want to remember," he answered.  "If I did, I might keep
 the future from happening by letting the past encroach upon it.  I create
 each hour's newness by forgetting yesterday completely.  Having been happy is
 never enough for me.  I don't believe in dead things.  What's the difference
 between no longer being and never having been?"

   It goes on, as though written for the KC Nostalgists:

   "I was angered, finally, by these remarks which were too far ahead of my
 own thoughts; I wanted to draw back, to stop him, but could not find a way to
 contradict his words..."

 A loyal citizen
 under King Crimson

 Ben Rider

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 18:26:28 EDT
From: PR1955 at aol dot com
Subject: It's All Just Talk.......

With all the postings I have been reading of late about the Beatles and their
influences I must say as an anglophile I am sure no musician has grown up
with out something of them rubbing off...But they are now in the muzak closet
and you can always get a dose of Beatle-Mania at any oldie station in any
major market in the US of A...But I am sure guys like Fripp and Belew got
more out of some of the more "progresive" band of the ' 60's...Who out there
remembers the MOVE??? One listen to their catologe from the ' 60's and at
once you are hit in the head by the sheer other worldlyness and
progresivness....Light years ahead. Someone should ask Mr. Fripp his feelings
on Roy Wood.....Or the Pretty Things...Pre SF Sorrow......Now these were
bands.And if you lived in the UK in the ' 60's (Boy I wished I did)the list
of minor bands(at least to most in the US of A) goes on and on. Sure the
Beatles did rub off on most to some degree or an other but a lot of that has
to do with the commercial asspect of it. All R & R musicians DO get into it
as a vocation (a job) and yes many want to share a vision but first and
formost it has to pay bills. And the Beatles showed it could. And OH don't
let me forget the over the top rambling of Roy Harper. I could keep naming
them. For Belew yes a major influence (Lennon-RIP). But he was the odd Beatle
and as soon as he could get out from under it HE DID. So this infuence I
understand.....But the other 3 lads from Liverpool? It showed the upstarts
you could make a buck (or pound) from sling'n a guitar.......Nuff said....
Peace and Cat Food to all.....Paul

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 18:59:01 -0400
From: "Jay Black" <jblack at rivnet dot net>
Subject: Adrian Belew sounding like John Lennon

Well, when I cover Adrian songs when I am playing at different clubs near
me, I think I sound alot like Adrian. Should I land a recording contract
someday, and become wildly popular among Krim-heads, will you all 'dis my
originals because you will say that I sound too much like Adrian?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 18:20:57 CDT
From: "ian beltrow" <fracture25 at hotmail dot com>
Subject: What is wrong with KC fans today

Hello

I have been reading ET for the last several years and have even sent in
posts in the past-albeit probably over a year ago. however, my reading
recently concerning the Belew issue is extremely absurd to the point of
stupidity. Belew has been with KC since 1981 and HAS BEEN an influential
talented guitar player and vocalist since before that. I saw not only The
Construction of Light shows in Nashville but I also, saw Adrian on his Solo
acoustic tour and for those of you who just wish to complain about him over
and over again is stupid.

In a past posting I read a good point was given - To be in a band with
someone you also have to like, respect, and get along with them. Fripp would
not be in a band with someone he did not feel that way about. Therefore,
any person that has passed through the revolving door that is King Crimson
has had a vital part at that time and therefore is remembered but lets not
deliberately be cruel just for the sake of hurting feelings.
Not only should the issue be a dead thread but those who have commented so
rudely toward any aspect of King Crimson should reassess why they listen and
spend their money on KC products.

I saw the Nashville shows before ever hearing  a single song off of TCoL and
they where incredible. I have also enjoyed the CD an awful lot.

SO, for those of you that bicker and complain just knock it off and enjoy
the music or don't listen to it. either way your not hurting anybody.  aKd

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 20:58:05 -0400 (CLT)
From: "Miguel Farah F." <miguel at antonia dot webhost dot cl>
Subject: _The Great Deceiver_

About 100 digests ago, I asked wether TGD box set was worth its high price,
and I got several responses telling me indeed it was. So I bought it,
and...

I've NEVER been LESS regretful of buying a box set. It's amazing!

Thank you to all who encouraged me to buy it.

P.S.1: I like TCOL. Not KC's best ever, but very good nonetheless.

P.S.2: Belew isa fine musician, and he's important in making KC KC.

P.S.3: I miss Levin, but what the hey. Same goes for Bruford.

--
MIGUEL FARAH              //   miguel at webhost dot cl
#include <disclaimer.h>   //   http://www.webhost.cl/~miguel
<*>
"Trust me - I know what I'm doing."
- Sledge Hammer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 21:38:15 -0600
From: "Elaine C. Erb" <ecerb at indra dot com>
Subject: another female vocalist

Jeremy seconds the notion that Bjork or PJ Harvey could fit into the King
Crimson fold.  I think who would make an even better fit would be Amy
Denio.  She's got the musical and vocal versatility, the lyrical wit of
Adrian, and she plays a mean accordion!  Amy may be best known for her work
with the Tone Dogs but in her recent Boulder performance the work she did
with Francisco Lopez showed that she is good at listening to and responding
to the music.

I did get a kick out of seeing Steve's nod in ET#711 to the Lullaby Baxter
Trio for an opening act.  Capable Egg is a very fun album, I can't hear
enough of Space Girl.  Maybe they could trade off opening dates with Senor
Coconut!  Anyone heard their covers of Kraftwerk yet?

I'm just back from a musically intensive weekend at the 3rd WOMAD USA in
Seattle.  Highly recommended is the group Tananas from South Africa.  They
do a magical job of blending african and carribean rhythms with a large
dose of jazz and a smattering of pop stylings to create a sound all their
own.  Steve Newman is the most exciting guitarist I have seen recently,
taking a fresh and highly percussive approach to the instrument.  The
soundboard of his guitars apparently don't last too long with his
scratching, slapping, and tweaking.  And there he is making a great array
of sounds on a nylon stringed acoustic guitar!

Elaine

* ^ * ^ * ^ * ^ * ^ * ^ * ^ * ^ * ^ * ^ * ^ * ^ * ^ * ^ *
The cruelest lies are often told in silence.
		-R L Stevenson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 23:40:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: alex mccune <sandy_mccune at yahoo dot com>
Subject: Belew for now and future/ and david Byrne influence

Hello,
       My first Crimson experience was an old friend tying me to a chair,
gaging me and forcing me to listen to Discipline at volume from start to
finish.  He knows I am eternally grateful. Now the thing that struck me
about that album was the vocals, the intensity, the angularity and
sometimes the beauty.  The only other vocalist that I could compare Belew
to was David Byrne, and at this time I was unaware that they had worked
together. I was also ignorant to the fact that Crimson had been recording
since 1969 with the lineup mutating and changing through the years.  After
acquainting myself with the seventies material it was obvious that there
was a serious shift in the creative impulse.

    The thing that always annoyed me was the constant branding of Crimson
as a Prog-Rock outfit, lumping them in with the likes of Yes, Genesis and
so on (what an insult), my view is that (a lot of) the lyrics and the vocal
styles of the 70's band was the only thing that could possibly warrant this
criticism. With the introduction of the 80's band came Mr Belew, and I
really do think that it was he who saved Crimson from going down in history
as the band that merely spawned the likes of Yes and Genesis and countless
others, Belew's vocal style (amongst other things) carried the band into
another decade, and again in the 90's. Be thankful for the great talent
that Adrian Belew is, there aren't many in a life time. Crimson without
Bruford or Levin as we have seen is perhaps possible, but without
Belew???????????

    TCOL is actually my least favourite Crimson album since Discipline but
not because of the odd lacklustre lyric from Belew, its because of the
V-drums.....Hee Hee!!!!

        God Bless
                    Alex x

PS, I'm still tied to that chair............

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 06:04:35 -0400
From: "Dave Schroeder" <davids at ezy dot net>
Subject: Personal KCollection

Hey fellow Crimsonites,
I now have 2 separate web sites up and running that show what I have
kcollected on our favorite band KING CRIMSON. These sites are good reference
sources for other collectors to see what is available in different
formats...it's certainly not everything that is available, just my own
private goodies.

Here is the address to the site that is devoted to what I have on compact
disc. You can navigate thru different pages that include: 'Domestic & Import
Releases' 'Promo & Radio Shows' King Crimson Collectors Club' 'Unofficial
CDs '    Lots of pics and also lists of related KC artists.
http://www.geocities.com/crimhed/KING_CRIMSON_C/Page_1x.html

The next address will send you to my site that contains everthing else from:
'Vinyl' 'Videos & DVDs' 'Memorabilia (press kits, tour programs, books,
mags, posters, stickers, buttons, postcards, misc.)' and a great 'Links'
page that will send you in all different Crimson related directions. This
site is also full of pictures & descriptions and lists of related artists.
http://members.xoom.com/kingcrim/index.html

If you have problems accessing either site please send me a personal email
and I will send you a direct link. I update the sites when I get new items,
so if you want a short email informing you of updates, just let me know.
There is nothing to be sold, no money to be made, and no talk of Bjork, or
exiling any members of the band...just items to view from an addicted
CrimHed.
I hope ya ejoy it.
David Schroeder
davids at ezy dot net

------------------------------

End of Elephant Talk Digest #723
********************************