Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #722 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 722 Wednesday, 2 August 2000 Today's Topics: The Beatles & Crimso; Wetton TCOL in review Beatles out-bjorked andrew keeling analysis TCoL Fripp with Van der Graaf Wetton's Starless performances I apologize If I'm contacting for the wrong purpose..... DGM Surprise Criticism of Robert's actions/ fans expectations Re: HDCD ByerKc Dissing the Beatles that Brittany Spears comment and the Beatles a non-linear response Replies to Various Posts in Last Issue KC, me, me, mine.... The KC solution old vs new material Reply to previous talks please retract 4 posts Belew: corrected posting from 721 In The Court Of The Beatles, Starry Night, Adrian Bashing old materal: corrected post from 721 ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:56:51 +0200 From: Piotr Zlotkowski Subject: The Beatles & Crimso; Wetton Hello all, I would like to remind you that KC played a fragment of The Beatles' "Tomorrow Never Knows" during their Warsaw gig on June 10th! > On the John Wetton Band CD "Live in Poland 1998" the show includes > covers of "Starless", "Easy Money", "Book of Saturday" & "The > Night Watch". The Wetton voice is still impressive, but FOUR > Crimson covers ? Well, I was there and must say that Wetton was in really bad vocal form then and had to do some studio overdubs for the album. But in my opinion he approached King Crimson songs creatively and didn't reproduce the album versions. Peter -- PRZEWODNIK PO ZAPOMNIANYCH GRUPACH ROCKOWYCH: http://www.amwaw.edu.pl/~pzlotko ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 17:29:36 -0700 From: proclaimation at juno dot com Subject: TCOL in review It seems half of us don't like TCOL and half of us do. The Nashville concert on May 19th had interesting pieces (like "Heaven and Earth") but was overall disappointing (Hopefully, May 22 will be better). Here lies my observations: 1) When Fripp re-invented Crimson in 1973, It was from the ground up. I read once that the first time this band played together, it was so bad that Fripp almost gave it. But when the got together the second time, magic took place. 2) Fripp has ideas to incorporate into a band and that band was called 'Discipline' at first until Fripp decided it was Crimson. Again, it was built from the ground up. Fripp says that each musician was to find different ways to play their instrument. No C,D,E,F,G,A,and B chords. Both times, each album shows their progression until break-up. Crimson, starting with VROOM, is not satisfying because its not working from the ground up. Sure, there are SOME good pieces, but Crimson is working on the past, on themes already done. A rehash RED album, a crimson alternate-rock album. Crimson needs to work from the ground up again. This is being done by their improvs and they did try something different on TCOL but it doesn't have the KICK the music needs. I think Fripp's intention was to do this (not doing old material doesn't bother me) but it doesn't work EXCEPT the improvs are KILLER PIECES!!! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 22:52:11 -0400 From: James Hannigan Subject: Beatles Belew has an obvious Lennon influence at times, Walking on Air being a prime example.. As for non-AB KC, the only clear instance of a Beatles relationship (other than the lyrical reference in Happy Family) I know of is Cat Food. Anyone recognize Come Together in there? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 19:58:44 -0700 From: "Hoang Le" Subject: out-bjorked >>.....Are you saying KC could not have a "vocals only" singer? (Thanks for clearing up the discussion...much relieved and re-encouraged). I did in a sense imply this, somewhat narrow-mindedly so. This question stand-alone however does widen (or sharpen, depends on how you look at it) the discussion. What would amaze and impress me of a vocals-only singer in KC is the tolerance, discipline, even suffering required that goes with contributing an "instrument" that is only featured every so often. Of course it is not unheard of - why, not far from KC circles the League of Crafty Guitarists toured with a vocalist to provide anchorpoints throughout the set with a-capella solo pieces interspersing the avid group guitar patterning ("Would you sing for us, Patricia?" - RF). Still, considering the talent required to perform within KC context in contrast to the scarce "windows of opportunity" for performance, it just seems such an unlikely scenario, even though I admit it could be a very exciting one. Nic ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 20:25:23 -0700 From: "Hoang Le" Subject: andrew keeling analysis TCoL I am wondering if any other readers of the Andrew Keeling analysis of the album TCOL were wondering, as I am, why Dr Keeling neglects to discuss a clear and fairly direct connection between FraKctured and LTIA pt IV? The obvious connection being the "fast center part" of FraKctured which is quoted (be it octaved and set against a different backdrop of percussive and bass-line accents) literally within LTIA pt IV. Also, I agree with an earlier post that traces of Red are more than sporadically present - and thinly guised - within LTIA pt IV. Certain moments seem to link to even further pieces (NB, not the kind that "remind" you of other pieces but deliberate, identifiable and provable "quotations") which I'm sure different people will uncover and point out over time. I'm just a sideline music "analyst" and hardly that, but the more I listen to it (and I haven't quite yet given it the listen I have FraKctured) it appears to me LTIA IV is a culmination of sort, a musical-conceptual storybook telling of King Crimson music past - inviting the question: perhaps also of King Crimson future? Nic ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 00:29:09 -0400 From: James Hannigan Subject: Fripp with Van der Graaf this is from the website www.vandergraafgenerator.co.uk. Jackson was the band's horn player. An interview with David Jackson by Mick Dillingham We recorded our third album, 'Pawn Hearts', again with Robert Fripp guesting on guitar (as he did on 'H to He'). There had been a feeling within the band that for recording purposes a guitar was needed at points. Hugh and I didn't feel this, but Guy certainly did. Nic had a done a bit of guitarring on 'H to He', but the argument went out of the window when the chance came not to have 'some' guitar on the album but Fripp! I remember hearing 'Court of the Crimson King' while I was in 'Heebalob' and the music was unbelievable, it had the same impact as 'Sgt Pepper' had before. The possibilities it opened, especially in the direction I was going, were amazing. At that time Fripp was seen as an innovator and it certainly gave us massive credibility having him on there. But when you actually met the guy and saw him work, it was something magical. I can remember him coming down to Trident (Studios), setting all his pedals up and plugging his guitar in, putting his headphones on although he'd never heard the track before, he recorded this amazing solo on it first take - and that first take was the best, he didn't improve on it. He actually ended up rejecting it, there were a couple of off notes because he didn't know where the track was going at points, but there was a spirit about that first take which was supreme and we were all awestruck. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 04:01:34 EDT From: MDENACI at aol dot com Subject: Wetton's Starless performances Hi, gang! Just adding a response to Sandy Starr's question about whether Asia's live performance of Starless is worth checking out. In addition to Asia's 1990 cover version on "Live in Moscow," Wetton has performed various versions of the song on several live releases throughout the past decade. I suspect that the first two--from Asia and from JW's "Chasing the Dragon"--would be the least interesting to most KC fans. As other posters have pointed out, they are both truncated, featuring just the vocal song. Although JW's singing is fine, neither version has much drama or atmosphere, IMHO. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the '97 studio version on "Monkey Business" is even worse: Richard Palmer-James arranged it and played all the instruments, primarily consisting of New Agey synth washes and some nice piano. JW's vocals sound VERY different from those on "Red" and all other live performances I've heard. His singing on this track strikes me as strained, awkward, and possibly off-key (not being a musician, I'm not certain of the latter). My suspicion is that they recorded the vocals live in one take, perhaps in order to get a more raw, emotional feel. As wrote previously, it makes me wince. On the other hand, I have seen people raving about this same track in other forums, so perhaps you should take my opinion with more than a grain of salt--in any event, I consider "Monkey Business" to be an incredible CD aside from that song. My favorite performance of the shortened version of the song is that on "Hazy Monet: Live in NYC," an acoustic show from '97. JW's vocals seem particularly melancholy here, and Ian McDonald's flute adds a lot of atmosphere. While some people have groused about the sound of this CD, I think it is by far the most enjoyable of JW's three live acoustic albums (it includes a lot of amusing banter with the audience, with some KC-related in-jokes as well). The live performances of Starless that should have the widest appeal for KC enthusiasts, however, are the more recent, full-length versions. I have heard two: one on the Progfest '97 compilation, and the other on "Nomansland: Live in Poland." They are both good performances: I think the mellotrons sound more authentic and the drumming more Bruford-esque on the Progfest version, but I prefer the vocals and guitar on the Nomansland. Finally, I'd like to add my two cents on the debate about whether KC should perform older material in concert. Although it's probably fairly obvious from the above that I'm a big Wetton enthusiast (first coming to KC via Asia when I was but a teenager), I nonetheless have to applaud RF's stance on this issue. First, the current band's sound is so different from that of prior incarnations, that older material just would not "fit." Why ask AB, PM, et al to perform other musicians' parts? Lake and Wetton continue to perform fine versions of the older classics (Steve Hackett's "Tokyo Tapes" has wonderful versions of "ITCotKC" and "I Talk to the Wind," with Wetton and McDonald). Second, between Thrak and TCoL, at least half of the current band's repertoire consists of what arguably are reinterpretations of older material, especially "Red," LTiA, and "Fracture." KC have certainly not discarded their classic material; rather, they have intricately woven it into their present repertoire. As "enthusiasts," we get the best of both worlds: a band that continues to innovate, without abandoning its history in the process. Thanks for listening! :) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:47:01 EDT From: LocNarMobRules at aol dot com Subject: I apologize If I'm contacting for the wrong purpose..... Once upon a time a young guitarist was stricken by mono and bedridden for a month, he got real fast but had the technical expertise of a second string trumpet player in a HS band. So, employing the Monkee's "learn it while you earn it" principle he deemed fit to Use heavy metal as a vehicle from point A to point B. That was 20+ years ago & I've made a good mess of it & am still hopelessly in the clutches of the dark side of the force. I have been in exile (self) the past decade (I've 4 kids) and have been recording using my lowly 4 track.(tascam 424 (older) As Kharmic revenge I've developed a strong vocal style . So, I'm looking for musicians who'd be interested in recording with me via mail as my drum machine stuff is quite boring. I'd originally planned on going artsy (w/a gunslinger's psyche of course...) in my older years, It'd be nice to get back on track. Kids are clawing at the keys............... "Mick" PO 112 Cascade, WI 53011 note: I'm sick of second chair, much to learn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 08:20:17 -0700 From: William Heinrichs Subject: DGM Surprise Hello all, Last Tuesday I placed an online order with DGM to obtain TCOL & join KCCC. Thanks to the reviews on ET, I placed a special order for past KCCC releases. I only wanted certain releases. Much to my suprise, the KCCC releases arrived Thursday and TCOL Friday. Granted, they ship from Hollywood and I live in Pasadena, but what great service! Thanks, Bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:31:40 GMT From: "Jeremy Klein" Subject: Criticism of Robert's actions/ fans expectations Hello I'm a long time reader of elephant talk, but this is my first post. I find ET to be amusing, annoying, and even informative on occasion. The purpose of this post is in response to criticism's of Robert's decision to leave the stage after his request for no flash photography or photography in general is violated. The issue of audience expectations and many people's opinion that the performers are working for them because we the audience have paid for the concert is a complex one. First of all, it is the performer's choice as to what material they play and the audience is well aware that KC is not going to be playing any old material. SO DON'T KEEP POSTING ABOUT IT! It's pointless and stupid. Second of all, everyone has a breaking point and Robert's has been reached on several occasions with excessive flash photography, autograph requests, etc. that take away his creative energy and focus. He is acting as a medium for music to enter the physical world that is present but not realized until it is expressed through him and other musicians. Unfortunately, some people feel it is their right to do whatever they wish because they paid their hard or not so hard earned money to see the show. Well they are missing the point completely, which is to quote Robert "to be present to the moment" to be an integral part of the event and make it transcend the self-imposed barriers and labels we have put around ourselves. I understand that many people are nostaglia lovers and want to hear their old favorites played live and bring back fond or not so fond memories. Well go see a tribute band or something and allow others who want to focus and add to the energy of the event come instead. As many other posters have already said, if nobody comes to the shows then KC will be forced to reconsider their position. However, this does not seem to be the case nor does it seems remotely likely of occuring. Therefore, unless you're interested in energizing KC and allowing the creation of magical moments, stay the hell away and play your CD'S at home. Good day Jeremy Klein ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:34:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Steven Sullivan Subject: Re: HDCD HDCD stands for High Definition Compatible Digital. It's an encode/decode process marketed as a way of re-introducing the 'missing' four bits of information when playing 20-bit recordings on 16-bit media (that is, virtually all CD players). The result is said to be more dynamic range, better 3-D soundstage, and more natural timbres. Whether or not this is true, from what I've read in the audio press the audio chip used in HDCD-equipped DACs (the PMD-100) is considered to be one of the best, and that can't hurt. www.hdcd.com has lots more info (not unbiased, since the page is set up by Pacific Microsonics, which has the patent on HDCD). -S. Trubba not. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 19:24:51 +0100 From: "Paul Dowling" Subject: ByerKc In ET721, spaemtrap at usa dot com wrote: >>2) Bjork. >>"Oh Bjork, Bjork, were you brought by the stork >>Or were you created from butter and cork? >>I love you so much, I act like a dork, >>Oh Bjork, oh Bjork, oh Bjork." Funny, funny - although "Bjork" is actually pronounced kind of like "Byerk", so rhymes are a little harder to find. How about: "Oh Bjork, Bjork, you sing with a quirk,Please sing with King Crimson and don't be a jerk,This is a dead thread that I wish we would shirk,Oh Bjork, oh Bjork, oh Bjork" My apologies, Paul (a fan) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:22:14 -0400 From: Ted White Subject: Dissing the Beatles It seems to me that Elephant Talk has gotten a lot more fanboy foolish in recent months, and I'm not sure whether this can be attributed solely to the natural turnover and evolution of a list like this, or whether the release of the controversial TCOL triggered it. But surely the reducto ad absurdum has been reached with "RG"'s post in #721, wherein he says, >There's nothing wrong with being influenced by other musicians. >I simply consider the Beatles to be extremely overrated and a very poor >choice to refer back to. There are many positive influences KC may have had, >but they themselves have progressed so far beyond the Beatles' simplistic >style that it seems regressive for Adrian to imitate them. "The Beatles' simplistic style." Roll those words around in your mouth a few times; savor their flavor. It is a safe bet that "RG" has never listened to anything by the Beatles after, say, RUBBER SOUL. He appears blissfully unaware of the Beatles' prior influences on Crimson (like, say, "Happy Family," on LIZARD), and apparently never heard the Beatles' "Hey Jude," from which the "Marine Coda" to "Vrooom" is taken. ("I Have A Dream" on TCOL is a similar descendent of the "Hey Jude" coda; the Beatles have been an obvious influence on Belew for years.) Fanboy ignorance. Sad to see. Wise up, "RG." --TW (Dr P) dc-et #6 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:19:31 -0400 From: "Brown, Ken" Subject: that Brittany Spears comment and the Beatles Aaron wrote about my Brittany Spears comments: >>A) deliberately trying to create a stir because you haven't been getting enough interesting hate mail lately or B) trying to win brownie points with Brittany Spears (either of which is a perfectly valid motivation, of course)<< To which I give you Jan Geerts comments of: >>It's what you expect from entertainment. OK, current pop standards aren't high, but she just isn't a talented singer, which is the important thing when singing, no ? I think that with bands like KC the talent factor is a little more important than the 'entertaining' one.<< So obviously (A) is your answer! (B would be if she wasn't as young as she is and I wasn't married.) I'm not sure what you people expect out of life. I am no fan of Brittany nor any of the other teens acts. They do what they do well, entertain. I have not heard where any of them are trying to change the world. Just imagine that some little kid sees Brittany and then gets into music, in a few years that person turns into the next Bobby Fripp, it could happen!! That what music is for entertaining. That is what Fripp does and it is what Brittany does. Would I expect their fanbases to be mutually exclusive? Yeah, but so what. So why is the talent factor more important then the entertainment one with KC or any other band? A band can be the most highly trained musicians in the world and if the music doesn't 'move' you or entertain you it means nothing. What it really means is that what you want out of music is different then what Brittany fans want. Does it mean that your wants are better or mean more then theirs. No it doesn't. Why you like something is no one's business but yours. Are you trying to say that pop music is crap, yet highly complex music is good just because it is? That is the kind of pretentious thinking that ruined prog to begin with. I still say it is as hard to write a great and simple pop song as it is to write a complex piece of music. You don't think so? Well I can show you several million pop songs that never made it. Which brings me to RG and speaking of the Beatles: > dislike them because they share some of the same qualities I hate about a lot (not all) of the Beatles' music: simplistic gibberish lyrics and childish poppy melodies. As I said - it's all a matter of preference. I was merely curious to see who else might think this way...<< This is just simply stupid! Talk about wanting to inflame people. Grant it is your opinion and I don't want to change it but, how can I take anything you say seriously when you say things like this? I realize I am being very harsh here, but everything changed with the Beatles. Everything! I like to see you or any other band try and write such simple gibberish lyrics and childish poppy melodies as Lennon/McCartney! Lord knows thousands of bands have tried their whole careers to copy what the Beatles did and failed. I'm not even that big a Beatle fan, I have only one CD of theirs, but I can see and hear what they did for music. David Vella wrote: >> in my opinion, the Fripp/Sinfield collaboration has earned its rightful place in history, and deserves the same consideration we might give someone like Lennon/McCartney<< Yes it is your opinion and valid because of it, but still.... I know we are 30 years removed from the Beatles, but still.... Fripp/Sinfield same breath as Lennon/McCartney, come on lets be real here. Either you or I need to gain some perspective here. And that is not to say that what F/S did was bad or anything but still.... Jan Geerts also thought I was wrong about it being a privilege for Fripp to play for me. Well of course it is his opinion and if he feels it is, great, I don't. Maybe Fripp wouldn't dislike fan interaction so much if people would stop treating him like he was better then they. Yes, he has influenced a lot of people. So I have, so have you, everybody influences everybody else. With famous musicians we just get to see it more when new bands arrive that show their influences. I have found many more bands that have Genesis, Yes and Beatle roots then KC ones. Then Jan wrote: >>I know some really great, creative musicians who will never expose themselves to the life of a professional musician, because of what Fripp so nicely puts the view from the basement : these musicians will not be claimed for anything. So we don't get to hear their talent, so it's our loss. If all creative musicians would act that way, we would be left with...<< Not knowing them I can not say. But maybe they are afraid to expose themselves to failure of not making, more then anything else. I know lots of musicians who would sell their souls to be as half as famous as Fripp. Guys who work day jobs yet still put in the time of touring and writing and releasing music. If it is in you, you need to show the world. The worst thing in life is not to try. One of the great things about the Net is it as allowed thousands of musicians who would never be know to be heard. Ranting mode off Ken PS here is a question to Toby, how come we never see a post from you to ET? Are you too busy editing all the BS the rest of us feel is important to not be able share your own thoughts with us? [ No, far from it -- I do post sometimes. About once every 4 years. -- Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:36:06 -0500 From: "roscoee" Subject: a non-linear response i read all the elephant-talks with interest, enthusiasm, and--often--much confusion. someone just mentioned joni mitchell's response to fans' requests...."nobody ever said to van gogh, 'paint starry night again, man.'" what more can be said? when one appreciates an artist, it seems that one should willingly experience what that artist chooses to create. i, for one, would be completely appalled if fripp and the current king crimsom line-up appeared on stage as a nostalgia act, playing old "hits". i have enough respect for the artists in king crimson to have no preconceived notions of what they should play... i just appreciate the opportunity to be in the presence of the creative process. "exposure"--in its glorious entirety-- is easily one of my very, very favorite pieces of auditory art. but, surely, i don't expect him to recreate it on stage.... and "starless and bible black" also ranks way up there on my list of most significant musical experiences. i have only had the pleasure of seeing king crimson live once....on some pier in nyc in the early 80's. it never entered my mind to request or even hope for certain songs to be played. i was only along for the ride, and i was thrilled by the experience. fripp is a forward-thinking artist. i trust him completely as he progresses through his creative life.... whatever he presents to me--as the listener--i am grateful and appreciative. i may not even like it, but i appreciate the opportunity to share in his artistic endeavors.... in this new game of theorizing on female vocalists, another name comes to mind. elizabeth frasier from cocteau twins.... just rambling, roscoee at gateway dot net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 20:47:56 GMT From: "Cameron Devlin" Subject: Replies to Various Posts in Last Issue Hello all.. I have at several comments relating to posts in the last issue (or issue #721 if this doesn't make #722) so bear with me... 1) KC RELATED RELEASES >>LEVIN,TONY-WATERS OF EDEN +1 >>Japanese edition of 2000 release from rock/fusion artist. Includes one >>exclusive bonus track 'Boulevard Of Dreams'. 10 tracks in all. Hate to disappoint but Boulevard Of Dreams is on my CD as track 7... however, the normal CD is only 9 tracks so this must still be a limited edition. Also, why is it always Japan who get extra tracks??? How about a European/American version of an album which has tracks that the Japanese release doesn't (like Adrian Belew did for Belewprints)?? 2) THE ENTIRE BJORK AS SUPPORT BAND/KC VOCALIST ISSUE One word: No. I don't like to have such negative opinions about possible directions for music but this is just NOT going to happen. I refuse to let it. I know it sounds pompous, but I won't. Let's remember two of the most irritating songs on the planet come from Bjork ("It's Oh So Quiet" and "Big Time Sensuality"). She has a nice voice occasionally and has been known to do some good songs ("Army of Me" & "Batchelorette") but the bad outweighs the good. Just NO. 3) MikeTEACHR at aol dot com's 1989 BOX SET Mike (which I assume is your name).. I have seen this twice in my entire 3 years of record collecting.. once on tape, once on CD. Since it's a Box Set you can sell it for a fair price, as long as the box is in good condition. So to answer your questions... fairly rare, I assume the production run had 1 batch of probably a couple of thousand copies but I'm not an expert on box set production numbers, and no, I don't think Cryogenics are in order, just look after it - who knows, maybe one day you'll be able to sell it to get yourself a new car :). 4) Buzz Fenner's NEXT VOCALIST Annette Peacock could be good - I've often thought that Back to the Beginning on the same album you mentioned is what Crimson would sound like with a female vocalist. Although I don't think I'd swap her for the subject of my next section... 5) BELEW BASHING STOP IT!! Adrian Belew is the best thing to happen to Crimson since Bill Bruford!! He's already been so upset/annoyed by this constant wish that he'd just leave the band that he suggested that Robert just carry on without him. I know you're all just expressing your opinions but try and write it in acceptable terms. The phrase "removing AB would usher in a great new era" is like saying "Hey, lets all go and lynch a black man, because then the world is going to be a better place!" In other words, why does the removal of something that isn't the problem help in any way? If anything, the problem here is all the people saying how he should go -if you aren't appriciated by the fans then you must start to think how pointless the entire endevour is - I know I would. Leave the guy alone. NOTE: Before I get hate mail, I'm certainly not comparing Adrian's possible departure to the senseless slaughter of black people - it's mearly a comparison. NOTE 2: For those of you who do not think Adrian Belew is the best thing to happen to Crimson since Bill Bruford, just let it go because it would probably make for a very very boring newsletter (ie. "I think David Cross is best"... next post... "I think Tony Levin is best"... and similar posts throughout). 6) OLD MATERIAL ON FUTURE TOURS Let the band decide. OK, we'd all love to hear the classics but Fripp clearly knows what he's doing here. If he doesn't want to play Larks II, don't try and get him to. It's almost certain that there will eventually be a tour where the majority of the set is classic Crim ... I say this with proof: a) Fripp has stated that he wants to play Starless again someday. b) Read the diary entries for the Crimson Collectors Club release #5&6 (On Broadway), specifically the entry for Tuesday, 9th March, 1999... an extract: "King Crimson touring in the US this October (3 weeks plus up to one week for rehersals) and Japan in December (probably 3 weeks total). This would be based on CORE CRIMSON REPERTOIRE which continues to fire and ignite the players..." The rest of his ideas involved playing classic Crimson songs in any shape or form - ProjeKct Zero, for instance, being "free to go wherever it may go". Basically, while Crimson was having this difficulty finding itself during the ProjeKcts, Fripp felt it was a good time go on tour and play old material - probably would have been the same set list as the THRAK tour, with a few slight changes here and there, but none the less you would have got the crowd pleasers (like Schizoid Man for instance). 7) BRITNEY'S TONGUE IN ASPIC Funny you should mention this, because last night I had two dreams... both about this sort of thing. The first one, it was King Crimson doing a version of "Baby... One More Time" and then second was Crimson doing the same thing but with Britney doing vocals (just because she happened to be at the concert or some such very cheesy, 80's style feel-good-about-yourself american movies.). This was probably just an excuse to have Britney Spears in my dreams because soon into this second dream, Robert Fripp was replaced by me :). And by the way, I can think of far better places for Britney's tongue to be than in aspic ;) 8) ADRIAN/LENNON? Yeah, at times, but this is what he grew up on. I don't think many people have their own unique sounding voice... for some reason when I play David Sylvian songs, I sound exactly like him, and when I play Adrian Belew songs, I sound exactly like him. If you had listened to NO music with lyrics EVER, then you'd be entirely you, but otherwise it's just impossible. I think that'll keep me going until another month has passed. Hope it all made sense. Thanks, Cameron Devlin (Guitarist, just in case Ms. Spears would ever like to hire me.......) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 16:53:27 -0400 From: Martin Bradburn Subject: KC, me, me, mine.... A little poem in response to recent posts: I've got to say I've had enough Of all the time changes and intricate stuff This band is a dinosaur they've said it themselves And all of there disks would be better if shelved The don't play the old songs They new one just suck And for my hard earned money They're live sound's like muck They don't do their hair up Or dance round like clowns In fact two of the lazy buggers Play the whole show sitting down The Belew guy's a geek Inducing his pop lame as hell His voice is all wrong It's not Lake, Wetton or even Burrell And Pat M's not Bill B It's just that simple can't you see He plays these crappy sounding V-drum ding dongs I hate them, I hate them they ruin my songs And Trey we can't hear him So he can't really be there And he's just a Bob clone With more strings and more hair And that horrible Fripp He won't play what I say He won't sign my CD's Or see things my way He won't pose for snapshots Or sell me his soul Or play in my home town He's just grumpy and old So let's just be done with this King Crimson wing ding If it's not the (60's, 70's, 80's) band it's not the real thing Now don't get me wrong or misunderstand I know what I'm saying.....I'm their No. 1 fan..... ;-) -- Martin | Martin G. Bradburn Senior Database Engineer Heartlab Inc | | 101 Airport Rd Westerly, RI 02891 (401) 596-0592 x103| | mgb at heartlab dot com mgb at brainiac dot com(home) | | 'We know others to the extent we know ourselves' | | - Guitar Craft Aphorism | ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 18:05:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Darryl Subject: The KC solution Good Day, Crimsonites I think I have the solution to the upcoming Crimson U.S. tour. Have Britney Spears do all the vocals in the nude and have Mr. Bungle as the opening act, but only doing covers of '69-'84 KC. That way people who don't like Ade's singing don't have to hear him; he'll only being playing guitar. Also, fans of older material can hear their favorites played by one of the best cover groups in the world. And finally, the audience will get to see the best looking singer KC ever had! And just for the hell of it, here's my dream KC line-up: Mike Patton-vocals Joe Satriani-guitar Les Claypool-bass Tony Banks-keyboards Dave Lombardo-drums (Just joking around Toby) Darryl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 18:11:34 -0400 From: "Peter Shindler" Subject: old vs new material Here's a vaguely relevant quote from Billy Joel (paraphrased slightly), when he was doing a speaking tour four years ago. Someone asked why he didn't play more of his early material in concert anymore. "My songs are like children, and I love all of them. But some of them grow up to be doctors and lawyers, and some grow up to be pimps and drug dealers." Personally, while I can't imagine the current lineup playing "Cat Food" or "Epitaph" without cringing, I am a little sad to know that I'll never get to hear them play "The Sheltering Sky" or "The Devil's Triangle" (now, THAT would be cool) either. But if they use that time to try something new and different, then it's a fair trade. Incidentally, I heard an outtake of Mr. Bungle (actually, it sounded like Mike Patton with a keyboard and drum machine) performing an extremely goofy version of Britney Spears' "Hit Me Baby One More Time" recently. It really broadened my appreciation for that song. Peter ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 00 16:54:14 MDT From: claus dot poulsen at usa dot net Subject: Reply to previous talks Hello hippies, I was the one who first brought the "3-piece KC" thing up, asking if anybody knew something. Now I feel a bit guilty about it, because of all the trouble it caused! Fripp is probably laughing his head off .... Anyway, there has been talk about the german noise-band Einstuerzende Neubauten. And yes, I like Neubauten too. And I can tell you, there IS actually a link between the two: first time I saw Crimson (Berlin 1995), Pat was wearing a Neubauten T-shirt (black with mensch). Well, I was very lucky to see both bands this summer - and there was a clear difference: Crimson has moved on, Neubauten hadn't (they were good anyway). To any new ears I recommend Mensch, Tabula rasa or 5 nach der Oben. Just got to hear "Moles club" today - I agree: this is exactly the reason the Collector's club exists. It's great! Best regards, Kclaus 1 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:21:36 -0500 From: "Aaron P Deglanville" <"aaron_deglanville"@uhc.com> Subject: please retract 4 posts I had 4 posts published in issue 721 that did not include my italic; this, unfortunately, was the means I used to distinguish other posters comments from my own. My posts now sound absurd, and I'm writing to beg you to print a retraction (if not actually delete those incorrect posts) and to republish my posts correctly; I'll be happy to resend them to you with brackets instead of italics if it helps, and will certainly never use italic in ET in the future. Thanks very much in advance, aa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:32:27 -0500 From: "Aaron P Deglanville" <"aaron_deglanville"@uhc.com> Subject: Belew: corrected posting from 721 >>I am in the thick of the crowd of those who thrill to the very idea of getting rid of Belew, despite my very high opinion of TCoL. KC has long stood for diversity and groundbreaking music, and I'm inclined to agree with those who suspect that removing AB would usher in a great new era.<< >Ummm....Crowd? What crowd? So far I've only heard one call for his >departure....yours! Wow, that means this is the first issue of ET you've ever read! Welcome to the forum! These are just from the past few issues : >Adrian quit or was asked to leave the band. That's my vibe! Wow I'm >thrilled! I like Adrian but I think the time has come. >if Fripp >really wants a new direction he has to get rid of Belew. By the way, there's also a "dead thread" entitled "Is Adrian Belew any good for King Crimson?", complete with angry rebuttal from Adrian archived. But actually, I don't think anyone besides your fictitious strawman is "calling for his departure". Some people just miss the relative diversity of past lineups, and assume (correctly) that Belew's contribution has been a pivotal factor in the more "streamlined" sound. Will KC continue to make qualitiy music with Belew? Probably. >A polite person might have said "It might be interesting to >consider how KC would develop without Belew" or "I wonder how >Crimson would sound without Belew". But "thrill to the very idea >of getting rid of Belew"? The first two statements simply do not reflect my thoughts/sentiments. The third was, admittedly, hyperbole (I borrowed someone else's word "thrill", above; this person would probably also admit to hyperbole). >And "removing AB would usher in a great >new era"? C'mon! Where are your manners? That has to be among >the rudest things I've ever read in ET. Now, now. My statement was far softer and more qualified--see original at top ("inclined to agree with..." and "suspect" are used). >c) You could be wrong. As my use of the above qualifiers obviously concedes. It's not like I said "Belew's such a dork. Throw the bum out!". There's absolutely nothing wrong with expressing the opinion that KC would likely improve without him. It's an utterly impersonal assertion. Plus, I could be wrong. And I also apologize, in case AB reads this and thinks that I consider him to be anything less than an amazing musician, and TCoL an excellent album. My intention is not to insult or wound. >In fact, I am in the thick of the crowd of those who thrill to the >very idea of getting rid of the fans, despite my very high opinion >of live Crimson. KC has long stood for multiple recursive irony >and groundbreaking music, and I'm inclined to agree with those who >suspect that removing the fans would usher in a great new era. LOL! =D ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 23:15:01 EDT From: Hocow at aol dot com Subject: In The Court Of The Beatles, Starry Night, Adrian Bashing Hi, I have had a couple of responses to my recent post regarding hearing In The Court for the first time and mistaking it for the Beatles (ET 721). I originally posted it as a perspctive on the "Adrian sounds too much like the Beatles" thread and I did dash it off as a bit of a one liner. Dave Vella wrote privately and asked if it was true or a joke and after I wrote a reply I thought it might make a not too terribly boring first contact (God, not another Crim Trekkie) story. So here it is: The Beatles thing is true. While looking back, we now know every sound the Beatles made and have them all memorized and categorized as cliches, but when the Beatles were making new music they often came up with radically new sounds that delighted, disappointed, amazed, and confounded (much like a certain other band with the initials KC who will remain nameless here). I believe I mistook Lake for Lennon and the mellotron was a logical and welcome return to Strawberry Fields and Magical Mystery Tourish creativity after the disappointing (I think this was the chronology) Hey Jude and Long And Winding Road. I had seen the Crimson LP around but had assumed it to be heavy metal crap (this was probably before that term had been coined but its ancestors were around) having no way to judge it except for that creepy (now classic) cover. This was my first exposure to Crim and I went out and bought the lp as soon as I could put together the money. Move over Who and Traffic, there's a new favorite band from now on. Brad Wilmot P.S. An insight on revisiting old material being a pain to the artist: "Nobody ever asked Van Gogh to paint Starry Night again." Joni Mitchell between tunes at Kingsbury Hall in Salt Lake City many many moons ago. P.P.S. Adrian bashers. You know this vicious crap will find its way to Belew. Would you really say such thoughtless things to his face. This is a great and dedicated musician who is a keystone to King Crimson as it is now. If you are not a fan that is fine. Your band broke up in the 70's but you still have the music to listen to. Leave my band alone to do their thing. There are lots of bands I don't like but I don't put down their members on their fan sites. Give it a rest and give Bjork a rest too. Brad Wilmot ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:39:33 -0500 From: "Aaron P Deglanville" <"aaron_deglanville"@uhc.com> Subject: old materal: corrected post from 721 Wow, so many dissenters I can't name them all, sorry: >>KC's catalogue is too vast and rich to justify wholesale neglect. Any KC show would be better off (more diverse, exciting, and satisfying) with multiple KC incarnations acknowledged.<< >Why be so influenced by dogmatic beliefs though? Sure, the norm is an old >band plays old songs, but if they decide not to, yet still sell out their >tour then just deal with it. >Yes, if nostalgia is your main concern. If Crimson were a brand new band >touring on their first album people wouldn't have these feelings. Though >the norm for bands from the 70's is to play all the old hits, its certainly >not a law. Wanting KC to play a few pre-Belew-era selections is hardly dogmatic or nostalgic! I thought we had already put this baby to bed. Who among us would rather not hear a little classic KC live?! >> do you really think he doesn't still love >>all his babies? >Yes, I totally believe he does NOT love all his babies. Plus unlike >children musical pieces don't grow up. I think by making Fripp play all his >babies you also don't let Fripp grow up. God forbid KC play the entire back catalogue. They would have to use life support to keep me alive through "Islands" just so I could make it to "Larks...". Did anyone else notice the excitement, inspiration, and love in Fripp's voice in recent diary entries detailing the remastering of Wetton-era KC? Fripp may have fathered some deformed children, but many have obviously well stood the test of time. Otherwise we wouldn't still all be around raving. >...you have a cache of recent things from the projeKcts, plus recent Thrak-era >material for "relaxing"(?). If I'm not mistaken, you have a cache of exactly nothing from the ProjeKcts, since it was all improvised. I may be wrong on this. But of course we'll hear "ProjeKct X". >Don't get me wrong, for the fan an ideal show would be a mixture of new and >old; This is essentially the point. >but these guys, being impossibly good musicians, probably get bored. I'm going to get crucified for wondering this aloud, but it's occured to me that this refusal to touch classic KC live could have something to do with the present lineup's limits as musicians; the new material--perhaps the most difficult yet--may preclude the band's effective reworking of older material. Look at Phish--they prove every single show that they still have command over the whole (insanely complicated) catalogue. If KC were really "bored" of the old stuff, why do they keep trying to rewrite it (various parts of TCoL & Thrak)? For nostalgia? Again, check out Fripp waxing "nostalgic" in recent diaries. These are beautiful babies (though I personally would rather you killed them than birthed a mutant clone from their flesh). >... any KC show would _not_ necessarily be better off with >multiple KC incarnations acknowledged, because the music has to seem >appropriate to the band. This may sound a little abstract - why wouldn't the >music appear appropriate to the band, can't they just adapt it, etc. - but >unless the band feels they are doing the music justice and the music is >doing them justice, then the music will come across as contrived. Yes, the >show would be more 'diverse' in terms of pieces selected, but it would not >necessarily benefit overall. I think the other arguments above may actually contain a hint of this, and I concede here. It would not be a better show (most likely) if KC were simply performing classics by rote, or begrudgingly. A good point. The band may even be divided on the matter (how much old stuff to play). Crimson will still play an incredible live show, still sell out (venues, that is), and are still the ultimate arbiters of what gets played or left out, of course. I'm in full agreement with all of this. I'm just saying GOD wouldn't it be BAD ASS if they opened with "Schizoid Man", encored with "Easy Money", or snuck "The Mincer" into the middle of a "FraKctured" jam... Just 2 cents (ok, maybe 22 =) ) aa ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #722 ********************************