Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #721 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 721 Monday, 31 July 2000 Today's Topics: KC related releases Re: "Tell us of the Moles Club, my Crimson Brother...." Opening band, BjorKc Belew, Sinfield & Cake Re: ancient and modern John Wetton fans - U.K. band autographs "1989" Box Set response and more opinion P.Dalmasso Next Vocalist Moles, Bjork, Toyah Re: Nostalgia apologies to Belew new tour, old material Britney's Tongue in Aspic Belew the shapeshifter Belew/Beatles Beatle Influence Swap ABGTKCCC Re: Wetton played full-length Starless privileges and cats HDCD "Self Correction" on 3 Member KC... Starless, Bowling & Movies ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 17:39:34 -0400 From: Gary Davis Subject: KC related releases Hi, folks: The latest Artist Shop newsletter is out and you'll find it in its entirety at . Meanwhile, here are some excerts for Crimson fans. Now available on our Manticore page Qango/Live in the Hood Qango is a new band featuring John Wetton, Carl Palmer, John Young and David Kilminster. This album was recorded at The Robin Hood & The Brook during the band's recent UK tour and features some truly hot performances of Time Again, Sole Survivor, Bitches Crystal, All Along the Watchtower, The Last One Home, Hoedown, Fanfare for the Common Man, Heat of the Moment and more! Hopefully a new studio release will be forthcoming from this ensemble! (I should also mention that the Qango CD has broken the Artist Shop record for largest number of pre-orders for a single CD!) soundbite - Coming in August from Magna Carta Bozzio Levin Stevens/Situation Dangerous With the success of their debut release, Black Light Syndrome, Magna Carta was not going to let that be the only statement from this trio of Terry Bozzio, Tony Levin and Steve Stevens! It also marked the beginning of a new and more musically challenging era for Magna Carta. Coming soon is Bozzio Levin Stevens second release, Situation Dangerous! soundbite - Future releases from Voiceprint and associated labels Keith Tippett with Mujician and the Georgian Ensemble/The Bristol Concert For over twenty years Keith Tippett has been at the forefront of contemporary European jazz and new music. Keith has been a solo pianist, composer, bandleader, band member and musical educator. Mujician is Keith Tippett's most successful improvising group, joined for this project by Julie Tippetts, formerly known as Julie Driscoll. This recording took place at St. Georges, Brandon Hill, Bristol on June 1st 1991, as part of The Bath International Music Festival. The Georgian Ensemble are eleven musicians, who feature, trumpets, saxophones, guitars and vocals. Featured here are selected pieces which Keith had written over the previous 15 years. They are compositions that would give the ensemble enough structure to feel secure in, but enough freedom to fly away from if the spirit desired. Progression magazine issue No. 35 is now available -- with 172 pages! Contents include the following: Interviews and features with: Adrian Belew Now, on to future import releases which you'll find at KING CRIMSON-GREAT DECEIVER LIVE 1973-74 Re-released due to popular demand. Featuring the classic '73-'74 line up of Robert Fripp, David Cross, John Wetton and Bill Bruford. And now imports that have been recently released which you'll find at LEVIN,TONY-WATERS OF EDEN +1 Japanese edition of 2000 release from rock/fusion artist. Includes one exclusive bonus track 'Boulevard Of Dreams'. 10 tracks in all. Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com artshop at artist-shop dot com phone: 877-856-1158, 330-929-2056 fax:330-945-4923 INDEPENDENT PROGRESSIVE MUSIC!!! ************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 12:46:21 -0400 From: Andrew Bass Subject: Re: "Tell us of the Moles Club, my Crimson Brother...." In response to Emory's questions... I wasn't actually at the Moles Club gig and I haven't heard the KCCC recording (so perhaps my comments are slightly off-topic), but I was at the Bristol Granary gig, 15 miles away and a few days later. That concert, the only time I saw Discipline/Crimson, was a (mildly) life altering experinece. I don't know the set-list for that show, but the band opened and ended with Discipline (the track) and definitely played early versions of "The Sheltering Sky", "Elephnt Talk" and "Thela Hun Ginjeet" The latter was particuarly intense. I'm fairly confident that "Indiscipline" and "Frame by Frame' also appeared. Since I was then unfamiliar with KC/Fripp's back catalogue, I can't say whether Red was performed. The following day I went out and bought 'Exposure' and believe that the band may have included 'North Star' from that album although I might be confusing it with Matte Kudasai. That evening was special for me. Never had I seen a band so in commend of their instruments and their music. Never had I become so lost (or immersed) in the music. Never have I seen a guitarist almost fall off his stool. It was wonderful. I can't speak for the entire British population or indeed the entire audience at the Granary, but I would think that most present were familiar with Levin and Belew from their work respectively, with Gabriel and Talking Heads/Bowie. Indeed, a further 'beau souvenir' of this evening was the presence of Peter Gabriel at the bar throughout the gig. Andrew Bass Sherbrooke, QC, Canada ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 12:38:31 -0400 (EDT) From: spaemtrap at usa dot com Subject: Opening band, BjorKc 1) The ideal opening band for Crimso is obvious: Bruford Levin Upper Extremities. While, yes, hearing King Crimson after BLUE would be a letdown, but it'd be great to hear Broof and Tony playing the same show as the rest of Crimson (and blowing them off the stage). 2) Bjork. "Oh Bjork, Bjork, were you brought by the stork Or were you created from butter and cork? I love you so much, I act like a dork, Oh Bjork, oh Bjork, oh Bjork." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:00:39 -0400 From: David Vella Subject: Belew, Sinfield & Cake Dear Pachyderm Posters, In #719, Sandy Starr submitted a long post, addressing many current threads, most of his observations I agree with, but I'd like to add to two of them: 1) regarding the defense of Adrian's lyrics: >>Not only that, but in my opinion AB's lyrics (which come in for >>a lot of flak on ET) are great, and appropriate to KC's music. >>Hey, just because Pete Sinfield thinks lyrics should be dense >>and descriptive doesn't mean that's the only way to do it. This >>is MUSIC, not literature - it works well with word play, >>abstraction and onomatopoeia. Well, I agree that AB's lyrics work well with KC, but I don't see why defending one lyricist necessitates knocking another. Sinfield's lyrics also worked well (in a different way) with KC music and in my opinion, the Fripp/Sinfield collaboration has earned its rightful place in history, and deserves the same consideration we might give someone like Lennon/McCartney. Furthermore I don't buy the Music/Literature Schism - literature can be lyrical and thereby enhanced (ever read Kerouac? As in Jack? As in Neal & Jack & Me?). Likewise, music can be literate and thereby enhanced (we can all think of examples besides the Fripp/Sinfield KC, right? Joni Mitchell? Leonard Cohen? Simon & Garfunkel? Others?) Lastly, if you don't think Sinfield's lyrics are replete with word-play, abstraction, etc., then you are not giving him his due. Go out and buy Sinfield's "Stillusion" CD (available from Voiceprint, DGM may even still carry a few copies) and give it a serious listen. Yes he can be dense and descriptive, but there is many a layer to be plumbed in his writing. 2) Regarding the "cake" analogy: >>Why do some ETers spend so much time trying to seperate out the >>contribution of band members to KC music? It's strange, it's like >>eating a cake and then instead of enjoying it trying to work out >>what aspect of the flavour the flour is responsible for, and what >>aspect of the flavour the butter is responsible for. When a band >>makes an album, they bake us a cake. Collaboration, whether on >>writing music or on performing music, is a magical thing. It >>should be celebrated, not taken apart. and later: >>When I eat a cake I taste an integrated cake, not an aggregate >>of cake ingredients. Hhmmm...Don't get me wrong, I understand and support most of this, especially the "celebrating the magic" part. But, consider this, for some people, analyzing IS an act of celebration. There are probably two kinds of people for which this is true. Those for whom analysis is a way of life (scientists, mathematicians, philosophers, for starters....) and those who have a vested interest in the analysis. Let me explain the latter group. Continuing with the cake analogy, if your only interest is in EATING a cake, then there is no point to analysis. But if your interest also includes BAKING a cake, then you have a vested interest in the analysis. That is to say, a chef would definitely be interested in knowing which aggregate of cake ingredients conspire to create the integrated taste, and would find strange your suggestion that they just taste the aggregate without trying to understand it. For a chef, therefore, they celebrate the cake by both tasting it and by analyzing it. Their joy is multi-layered. Similarly, a musician celebrates music by both listening and analyzing the various parts. Their joy is multi-layerd. Now the ET list certainly contains a lot of musicians (not me, alas), and a fair number of those in the first category (yup, that's me.) So it should come as no surprise that ETer's spend so much time narcissistically picking apart the tunes. Not being a musician, I have no vested interest in this beyond a fair amount of natural curiosity, so I tire of these analyses before the musicians do. (For example, I stopped reading the posts about songs in 7/4 & 9/4 time a while back.) So I can see your point. To paraphrase Zappa, just "Shut Up 'N Listen to the Guitar", right? On the other hand, I certainly see why many ETer's do pick apart the tunes, and if ET isn't the forum for that, what is? To go back to your analogy, with ET, you can analyze your cake and eat it, too! Cheers, David ==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==* David C. Vella Office: Harder Hall 219 Associate Professor of Mathematics 518-580-5291 Skidmore College dvella at skidmore dot edu Saratoga Springs, NY 12866 Home: 518-587-5363 web-page: http://www.skidmore.edu/~dvella/dcvbio1.htm ==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==* `I prove a theorem and the house expands, the windows jerk free to hover near the ceiling, the ceiling floats away with a sigh.' -Rita Dove US Poet Laureate (1993) 'Those who dream by day are cognizant of many things that escape those who dream only at night' -Edgar Allan Poe ==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:03:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Joe Hartley Subject: Re: ancient and modern Peter Clinch wrote: > In ET 717, Timothy W Cox suggested: > > I recently told a fellow employee (a jazzer) about Fripps > > policy of playing older material, his response, "that's ridiculous, your > > alienating an entire generation of youth from experiencing music" > > Does this chap go to Keith Jarrett solo piano concerts and shout "Koln > Concert!" between the passages? This was great! I'm reminded of the bit on Joni Mitchell's "Miles of Aisles" live disk where she says that no one ever went up to Vincent Van Gogh and said "Hey, paint 'Starry Night' again, man!" I'm not sure why people are so determined to hear the same old things at a music performance. I pay my money to hear the performance the musician wants to perform. One of the joys of seeing Frank Zappa when he was around was that he'd be recording the shows to get the tracks for the next album, so you'd hear what was on the upcoming album rather than the one previously released. You'd then get the later fun of trying to remember which bits you'd heard before. There was always room for a few older tunes, though - and there is on the KC show as well. That's what TOAPP and Heroes are for! ====================================================================== Joe Hartley - UNIX/network Consultant - jh at brainiac dot com 12 Emma G Lane, Narragansett, RI 02882 - vox 401.782.9042 Without deviation from the norm, "progress" is not possible. - FZappa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:10:19 -0700 From: studio seventeen productions Subject: John Wetton fans - U.K. band autographs are up on ebay for cheap! I met the band during the Tull "Broadsword" tour (1978?) and obtained their autographs (Wetton, Bozzio, Jobson) at a record store. It was an amazing day, I got to open John's Heineken for him, and chat with him about the making of Larks' Tongues In Aspic! Anyway, please check it out at http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=395049104 cheers, dave at studio seventeen www.pureambient.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 22:55:20 EDT From: MikeTEACHR at aol dot com Subject: "1989" Box Set Hello ETers!! I was cleaning up my CD collection and was looking at my King Crimson Box Set called "1989". Its a 4 CD set , on the EG label, including "In The Court..."; "Larks Tounges..."; "Discipline", and a 4th CD which is a Compilation of EG Label Artists. I notice that this box set is rarely, if ever mentioned in the KC Catalog. How rare is this Box Set? Anyone know how big the Production Run was? Should I encase this in Cryogenic Helium? THANX! for any/all info. Mike Miketeachr at aol dot com Now Listening to: The whirring fan in my laptop ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 04:37:29 -0500 From: "John Machtemes" Subject: response and more opinion hello ETers, a few random thoughts before bedtime. recently I submitted an article stating my OPINION on the ongoing evolution of KC which was of coarse met with an unsurprising and equally OPINIONATED rebuttal. as if the person who picked apart my post was naive enough to think I should write in a post that was non-biased toward my own beliefs, but on the other hand perhaps I was naive in believing I could post an article that in some way tarnished the fripp legacy without getting someone all riled up at my utter insolence. when I spoke my opinions in a "we" manner of thinking it is not to suppose or suggest that all share my opinion. I am not or never have been that presumptuous. I spoke of "we" as I and other persons I have spoken to that feel the same way about these topics and obviously some readers felt the same on this or that given the large audience of readers. let me also once again express my deep appreciation for what KC has given to us throughout the years. let me also express my distaste for the way my rebutter insulted my intelligence by assuming I MUST listen to TCOL more often in order to "get it"? perhaps I have the ability to discern on a more immediate basis than my rebutter does. think about that before you go with the "discernment ability attack" on my person. its just the whole thought of an open forum that drew me toward writing in the first place. if that feeling is lost it may reduce ET to fripp worship. isn't ET about opinions anyway? is anyone here a KC expert? of coarse not. we are just a bunch of opinionated listeners who like to feel free to comment on a band we hold so dear. positively or negatively. and yes, this does (or should) include extreme posativity or negativity, but in the same way the extreme positivity is hailed as prophetic the extreme negativity is hailed as pathetic. why is this so? IM still baffled on this one. as for all the great articles I have read in the recent issues I must offer a sincere thank you to the authors. ive heard some very interesting opinions and commentaries as of late.......they make the pain in my ass from sitting at my PC so long well worth it...lol. well, as for anything cutting edge, I'm too tapped out and tired, but I look forward to talking to everyone again soon. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 15:32:22 +0200 From: daniel palomo vinuesa Subject: P.Dalmasso i want to bring the pascal dalmasso's music to your attention pascal dalmasso is a french guitarist it seem's to me that his work may intererrest any fripp fan he like KC but he is also influenced by others guitatrist like bill frisell, david torn,belew,frith... and composer like bartok reich and glass i really like his music but you could make your own opinion: you could hear some tracks of his next CD "voiture 32" on the collectif serendipity home page (Flash 4 streaming) http://www.multimania.com/serendip/cd-page-pascal-dalmasso.htm just click on the loudspeaker icons -- Daniel Palomo Vinuesa le site du collectif serendipity http://www.multimania.com/serendip http://www.colserendipity.org contact: tel: 01 48 57 76 77 association Evasion 14 rue de la Republique 93100 Montreuil FRANCE ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 10:19:02 -0500 From: "Buzz Fenner" Subject: Next Vocalist While some of you are thrashing about on the subject of female vocalists for the next Crimson incarnation, let me throw my log on the fire. Annette Peacock, who can be heard on the first Bruford solo record, Feels Good To Me. Sometimes she sounds like she is singing from inside your head. Check it out. Buzz mailto:bfenner at bscn dot com "In the next world, you're on your own." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 18:42:25 +0100 From: "John Stevens" Subject: Moles, Bjork, Toyah Emory asks for details from someone who was at the Moles gig. Well, I was and it was FANTASTIC! My wife & I went not knowing what to expect, but the CC CD captures very well the vibrancy of the gig. The music was just SO powerful and the audience feedback very dynamic. This is one of the best, the best? KC gig I've ever experienced; and I've seen them from pre ITCOTCK in 69 onwards. To see this quartet at close quarters in a fuggy, sweaty tiny club was incredible. The sound was not perfect, sure there were glitches but for a band convened only 3 weeks previously was a remarkable first gig by anyone's standards. Saw them again about 6 months later, same venue, they were more polished and I hope a recording via the KCCC of that gig surfaces at some stage. I think RF's Soundscapes backing Bjork, of whom I'm a big fan too, would be magical. But as for her being KC's singer - I don't think so. Toyah, however....perhaps;-)) After all SAOTW, who we saw in Oct88 in Birmingham, were 50% current KC ie RF & TG. Now she COULD front the band - eh? Finally, Toyah's autobiography LIVING OUT LOUD (book & tape) appears in Aug. Also she is performing at the Edinburgh Festival in Picasso's Women during the same month. John Stevens ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 16:44:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Doug McKee <30-years at mail dot com> Subject: Re: Nostalgia In ET #720, Markus offered this... >>>I thought - after all these many postings to ET - that it was time to tell you all who want to hear it, my story of "How I got into KC". It's an usual story, perhaps, but anyway.<<< Interesting story indeed. It brought to mind my own introduction to King Crimson. While engrossed in college (and college radio) in 1974, I stumbled upon a copy of "Red" in the campus store. It was a wake-up call to a new musical force in my life. Over the years, I completed my KC collection on vinyl, including "Discipline" and the somewhat disappointing "Beat" and "Three of a Perfect Pair". At this same time, I branched out into the early solo efforts of Bill Bruford and added UK due to the obvious connections with Wetton, Bruford and yes, even Eddie Jobson. It was only a few years ago, with the advent of "Soundscapes", that I became substantially absorbed in the entire mystique of RF and any number of the talented folks who have worked with or for him over the years. Now, everything is on CD, the vinyl retired to the collection, and I am content with my role as an ordinary fan. Respectful of the past and hopeful for the future. Regards, Doug Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 15:54:27 -0500 From: "Aaron P Deglanville" <"aaron_deglanville"@uhc.com> Subject: apologies to Belew >>I am in the thick of the crowd of those who thrill to the very idea of getting rid of Belew, despite my very high opinion of TCoL. KC has long stood for diversity and groundbreaking music, and I'm inclined to agree with those who suspect that removing AB would usher in a great new era.<< Ummm....Crowd? What crowd? So far I've only heard one call for his departure....yours! Wow, that means this is the first issue of ET you've ever read! Welcome to the forum! These are just from the past few issues : >Adrian quit or was asked to leave the band. That's my vibe! Wow I'm >thrilled! I like Adrian but I think the time has come. >if Fripp >really wants a new direction he has to get rid of Belew. By the way, there's also a "dead thread" entitled "Is Adrian Belew any good for King Crimson?", complete with angry rebuttal from Adrian archived. But actually, I don't think anyone besides your fictitious strawman is "calling for his departure". Some people just miss the relative diversity of past lineups, and assume (correctly) that Belew's contribution has been a pivotal factor in the more "streamlined" sound. Will KC continue to make qualitiy music with Belew? Probably. A polite person might have said "It might be interesting to consider how KC would develop without Belew" or "I wonder how Crimson would sound without Belew". But "thrill to the very idea of getting rid of Belew"? The first two statements simply do not reflect my thoughts/sentiments. The third was, admittedly, hyperbole (I borrowed someone else's word "thrill", above; this person would probably also admit to hyperbole). And "removing AB would usher in a great new era"? C'mon! Where are your manners? That has to be among the rudest things I've ever read in ET. Now, now. My statement was far softer and more qualified--see original at top ("inclined to agree with..." and "suspect" are used). c) You could be wrong. As my use of the above qualifiers obviously concedes. It's not like I said "Belew's such a dork. Throw the bum out!". There's absolutely nothing wrong with expressing the opinion that KC would likely improve without him. It's an utterly impersonal assertion. Plus, I could be wrong. And I also apologize, in case AB reads this and thinks that I consider him to be anything less than an amazing musician, and TCoL an excellent album. My intention is not to insult or wound. In fact, I am in the thick of the crowd of those who thrill to the very idea of getting rid of the fans, despite my very high opinion of live Crimson. KC has long stood for multiple recursive irony and groundbreaking music, and I'm inclined to agree with those who suspect that removing the fans would usher in a great new era. LOL! =D ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 15:56:39 -0500 From: "Aaron P Deglanville" <"aaron_deglanville"@uhc.com> Subject: new tour, old material Wow, so many dissenters I can't name them all, sorry: >>KC's catalogue is too vast and rich to justify wholesale neglect. Any KC show would be better off (more diverse, exciting, and satisfying) with multiple KC incarnations acknowledged.<< >Why be so influenced by dogmatic beliefs though? Sure, the norm is an old >band plays old songs, but if they decide not to, yet still sell out their >tour then just deal with it. >Yes, if nostalgia is your main concern. If Crimson were a brand new band >touring on their first album people wouldn't have these feelings. Though >the norm for bands from the 70's is to play all the old hits, its certainly >not a law. Wanting KC to play a few pre-Belew-era selections is hardly dogmatic or nostalgic! I thought we had already put this baby to bed. Who among us would rather not hear a little classic KC live?! >> do you really think he doesn't still love >>all his babies? >Yes, I totally believe he does NOT love all his babies. Plus unlike >children musical pieces don't grow up. I think by making Fripp play all his >babies you also don't let Fripp grow up. God forbid KC play the entire back catalogue. They would have to use life support to keep me alive through "Islands" just so I could make it to "Larks...". Did anyone else notice the excitement, inspiration, and love in Fripp's voice in recent diary entries detailing the remastering of Wetton-era KC? Fripp may have fathered some deformed children, but many have obviously well stood the test of time. Otherwise we wouldn't still all be around raving. ...you have a cache of recent things from the projeKcts, plus recent Thrak-era material for "relaxing"(?). If I'm not mistaken, you have a cache of exactly nothing from the ProjeKcts, since it was all improvised. I may be wrong on this. But of course we'll hear "ProjeKct X". Don't get me wrong, for the fan an ideal show would be a mixture of new and old; This is essentially the point. but these guys, being impossibly good musicians, probably get bored. I'm going to get crucified for wondering this aloud, but it's occured to me that this refusal to touch classic KC live could have something to do with the present lineup's limits as musicians; the new material--perhaps the most difficult yet--may preclude the band's effective reworking of older material. Look at Phish--they prove every single show that they still have command over the whole (insanely complicated) catalogue. If KC were really "bored" of the old stuff, why do they keep trying to rewrite it (various parts of TCoL & Thrak)? For nostalgia? Again, check out Fripp waxing "nostalgic" in recent diaries. These are beautiful babies (though I personally would rather you killed them than birthed a mutant clone from their flesh). ... any KC show would _not_ necessarily be better off with multiple KC incarnations acknowledged, because the music has to seem appropriate to the band. This may sound a little abstract - why wouldn't the music appear appropriate to the band, can't they just adapt it, etc. - but unless the band feels they are doing the music justice and the music is doing them justice, then the music will come across as contrived. Yes, the show would be more 'diverse' in terms of pieces selected, but it would not necessarily benefit overall. I think the other arguments above may actually contain a hint of this, and I concede here. It would not be a better show (most likely) if KC were simply performing classics by rote, or begrudgingly. A good point. The band may even be divided on the matter (how much old stuff to play). Crimson will still play an incredible live show, still sell out (venues, that is), and are still the ultimate arbiters of what gets played or left out, of course. I'm in full agreement with all of this. I'm just saying GOD wouldn't it be BAD ASS if they opened with "Schizoid Man", encored with "Easy Money", or snuck "The Mincer" into the middle of a "FraKctured" jam... Just 2 cents (ok, maybe 22 =) ) aa ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 16:18:30 -0500 From: "Aaron P Deglanville" <"aaron_deglanville"@uhc.com> Subject: Britney's Tongue in Aspic And who says Britney would be a bad choice as singer? While no fan, she does what she does well. She is there to entertain people. Many more find her more enjoyable then KC, and in the music BUSINESS, how much you sell counts more then anything else. At least Britney doesn't walk off stage when someone takes her picture (what a dig there!) Britney Spears fronting Crimson is exactly the second most absurd musical pairing I can conceive of (the first would be her fronting Bungle). Although it's an interesting (if criminally insane) thought experiment. You are either: A) deliberately trying to create a stir because you haven't been getting enough interesting hate mail lately or B) trying to win brownie points with Britney Spears (either of which is a perfectly valid motivation, of course) aa ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 16:31:33 -0500 From: "Aaron P Deglanville" <"aaron_deglanville"@uhc.com> Subject: Belew the shapeshifter I don't hear anything at all resembling the phrasing, intonation, or style of either Lennon or McCartney. Even if Belew's voice was slightly Beatle-esqe by nature, is it really his fault? After all, Axl Rose sounded uncannily like Ethel Merman at times, and I'm sure that Rose didn't intend that. The verses on the studio version of "Dinosaur" sound uncannily like Lennon, and I'm almost positive that it was deliberate. "People" reminds me of Gabriel, and "Waiting Man" very much of Sting. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 18:01:47 EDT From: "R G" Subject: Belew/Beatles >Grant Colburn : > >Now, now..... you've gotta realize regardless of your personal taste >that >the Beatles are one of the biggest and most legendary bands of >all time so >your comment of their being "worth" imitating is purely >your personal >opinion. :-) Fair enough; that was a bad choice of words on my part. They were extremely popular and influenced uncounted modern bands. However, given the state of current popular music, I doubt this is a good thing. Popularity = worth? We're all intelligent enough not to believe this. >Be that as it may I also don't think that Beatles influence >is as far away from KC's past as you think it is... I don't think it was that far away to begin with, however, KC has grown and moved greatly beyond their influences - possibly the thing I most respect them for, since not too many others do. >Sandy Starr : > >RG seems to be saying that: > >1) One of KC's strengths is their originality, so an obvious >influence by >another artist is a weakness. Not exactly. There's nothing wrong with being influenced by other musicians. I simply consider the Beatles to be extremely overrated and a very poor choice to refer back to. There are many positive influences KC may have had, but they themselves have progressed so far beyond the Beatles' simplistic style that it seems regressive for Adrian to imitate them. >2) AB's voice is at its best when it _isn't_ overly influenced by the >Beatles. Yes. At least, as far as I'm concerned. This is simply a personal preference. >I would have picked 'Walking on Air' myself. >The chorus of 'Walking on Air' is _very_ John Lennon, down to the >inflections of the voice. But hey, I love the song, so shoot me! It was actually "Walking on Air" that prompted these thoughts in the first place: 10 seconds after sending that message I smacked myself for not remembering to mention it. I also love the song. I don't dislike songs like "Sex..." simply because they sound Beatle-like. I dislike them because they share some of the same qualities I hate about a lot (not all) of the Beatles' music: simplistic gibberish lyrics and childish poppy melodies. As I said - it's all a matter of preference. I was merely curious to see who else might think this way... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 22:21:23 EDT From: Hocow at aol dot com Subject: Beatle Influence Howdy, The first time I heard "In The Court" was at 2am on an FM station. I thought it was the best thing I'd heard by the Beatles in years. Brad Wilmot ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 07:54:39 +1000 From: "Paul and CJ" Subject: Swap ABGTKCCC Hi ETers Just a quick note to say that I have enjoyed recent and perhaps even not so recent debate on TCOL. I am not going to add anything other to the TCOL debate however. What I would like to do is to swap 'A Beginners Guide to the King Crimson Collectors Club' for either 'TCOL' or an 30th Anniversary edition of 'Lizard' or the Definitive Edition of 'Beat'. Please e-mail any interest. Paul (at caropaul at interact dot net dot au ) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 11:44:44 +0100 From: removed at users dot request (GW) Subject: Re: Wetton played full-length Starless I saw John Wetton + Band in 1995 and 1996 in Germany (at the "Starclub", Oberhausen). In '95 they played the abbreviated version of "Starless" (like on "Asia in Moscow"). In '96 it was the full-length Starless, including the powerful instrumental section. They played nice new arrangements of other KC-tunes as well (i.e. "Book Of Saturdays", "The Nightwatch" und a very powerful version of "Easy Money"). Ciao Gerd W. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 04:01:37 -0700 (PDT) From: jan geerts Subject: privileges and cats Hi all, Ken Brown wrote that he doesn't see it as a privilege when Fripp plays for him. I think he's wrong : Mr Fripp is a good example of a unique musician, he has influenced a lot of people, and a lot of 'em sound frippesque, but he's the real thing. Without this guy and his commitment to the public, a lot of music (not just his own) wouldn't have been made ,eg 'Heroes' : a decent song which has become magical through Eno and Frippification. Therefore I am grateful : I do not put the man on a pedestal, but I enjoy and admire his musical achievements. There is a significant difference. About artist's responsibility to their audience : the work should be true, full stop. He should not have to give autographs, talk, kiss butt or anything. The touring is promoting, but also sharing : do not put other claims on the artists than performing their work to the best of their ability. That's already hard enough. I wrote it once, I'll do it again : I know some really great,creative musicians who will never expose themselves to the life of a professional musician, because of what Fripp so nicely puts the view from the basement : these musicians will not be claimed for anything. So we don't get to hear their talent, so it's our loss. If all creative musicians would act that way, we would be left with... Britney Spears, and other professional made audio products : mr Brown also states that Britney Spears is good at what she does, entertaining people. It's what you expect from entertainment. OK, current pop standards aren't high, but she just isn't a talented singer, which is the important thing when singing, no ? I think that with bands like KC the talent factor is a little more important than the 'entertaining' one. I'll stop stating the obvious and go on on a lighter note : for years, the crazy sounds of Pink Floyd, Van Der Graaf Generator, Hawkwind , techno and dnb, Miles' early fusion, King Crimson... have been booming through my house, and my cats didn't mind. But if they hear a few moments from any ProjeKct, they split! And I thought they had good taste. Sound Mind ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 14:30:13 +0200 From: "Marcin Gokieli" Subject: HDCD Hi, ChalkPie88 at aol dot com worte about merits of HDCD. What is it, in fact? Marcin Gokieli marcingokieli at go2 dot pl Generally speaking, if a philosopher offers to 'dissolve' the problem you are working on, tell him to go climb a tree - Jerry Fodor ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 12:47:26 -0500 (CDT) From: TheMincer at webtv dot net (Ric Wilson) Subject: "Self Correction" on 3 Member KC... Hello E.T.Readers, I must take a moment and humbly correct myself on the issue of the discussion of a 3 piece King Crimson! Although it is a viable possibility,and could easily be done, I misconstrued the discussion,and had read the wrong entry in Fripp's Diary. I STAND CORRECTED (and sit corrected also...)! King Crimson could function as a Trio,and do it very well! Stranger things have happened (and will continue to). Anyway, just thought I'd correct me, before some vicious corrections came along! What? They're on the way? Quick, hide my sensitive male ego.... Ric, The Dead Hippie. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 15:50:28 -0400 (EDT) From: flohansson at hockeymail dot com Subject: Starless, Bowling & Movies Hi there! To add my two cents to the ongoing "Starless"-thread, I wanted to tell all fellow ETers that I recently bought John Wetton's live CD "Nomansland", on which you can find "Book of Saturday", "Easy Money", "Starless" and "The Night Watch". I think "Starless" sounds really good, but "Easy Money" definitely lacks some of the butt-kicking power of the original KC-version (although the improvisation which leads into the opening guitar riff is great!). I am not too impressed by the other "non-KC" pieces on the album, but the sound quality is brilliant and his band seems to be quite talented (no intention to insult anyone!). And I recently ran across another interesting thing: In the movie "Buffalo 66" with Vincent Gallo and Christina Ricci, there is a scene where Christina dances in a bowling hall. The song she dances to, is "Moonchild"!!! Boy, can you imagine how surprised I was to hear some "classic" KC-material in a film other than "Emanuelle"? ;O) flo ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #721 ********************************