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Subject: Elephant Talk #720


               E L E P H A N T    T A L K

        The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp
              and King Crimson enthusiasts

                        Number 720

                  Saturday, 29 July 2000

Today's Topics:

   NEWS: Fripp on NPR

   a reply to criticisms on my criticisms
   Bands and Playing with Friends
   Re: Asia does Starless
   "someone worth imitating?"
   HDCD
   Wetton/Asia Starless
   Starless '97
   re" Vocals?
   Re: radio sighting
   out-bjorked
   3 Piece Crimson? Look Out Belew!
   Re: vocals..?
   Prog Vs Commercial
   Re: BEATlesque Belew vox
   Beatles influences and groupie songs
   Wetton's covers of Crimson songs
   Re: New Tour, Old Material
   Unfamiliar Leven/Belew?
   My First Time...

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Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 19:36:29 -0500
From: "Doug Liles" <dug at multipro dot com>
Subject: NEWS: Fripp on NPR

Fripp get his 30 seconds of fame on NPR's Morning Edition. (July 27) Here's
the link:

http://search.npr.org/cf/cmn/cmnpd01fm.cfm?PrgDate=07/27/2000&PrgID=3

Scroll down to the "Musicians and the Internet" story and have a listen. The
audio clip features Schizoid Man, arghhh. I guess it would be asking to much
of NPR to play TCOL that early in the morning.

Doug L.
dug at multipro dot com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:22:02 -0400
From: "Brown, Ken" <KBrown at us dot imshealth dot com>
Subject: a reply to criticisms on my criticisms

Aaron  wrote about my impression on impressions:

>All opinions count, but not all opinions are created equal.  TCoL is not a
>"bad" record any more than Britney Spears would make an excellent choice of
>vocalist for the next KC release.  Well, unless she did the tour naked.

I agree, the point I thought I was trying to make was that for many,
negative opinions seem to be wrong ones. (there have been many more emails
blasting negative views, then  blasting positive ones).  I found many of the
posts, both positive and negative, about TCOL to be enlightening. Other then
ones that basically said this is a great KC record cuz it its a KC record or
those that said it sucks cuz it doesn't sound like Red or whatever. I would
say a majority of the posts about TCoL, that people have expressed their
feelings about the record based on the record and not pre-conceived notions.

And I don't think TCoL is a bad record, I was disappointed mostly because I
was hoping for more ProjeKCts stuff in there, you know a new sound. And who
says Britney would be a bad choice as singer? While no fan, she does what
she does well. She is there to entertain people. Many more find her more
enjoyable then KC, and in the music BUSINESS, how much you sell counts more
then anything else.  At least Britney doesn't walk off stage when someone
takes her picture (what a dig there!)

Then Aaron goes on to rile against my stance about people saying this is the
best KC CD. And I agree it is their opinion, and if they feel that way they
certainly can, but some preach it like it's the gospel truth.

I also agree that Wake is blatant rip-off of Court. But I seem to be one of
the few who feel that way. And looking back at it now that we 'know' that
the first LP was more McDonald creation then Fripp, its funny to see that
Fripp trying to emulate the first on the second. I am glad he found his own
voice by Lizard.

Then to my point about not liking Fripp's 'piano' solo Aaron says that ""Why
should a guitar *always* have to sound like a guitar?""

I agree, but does it make the solo great because it sounds like a piano? I
think not, I don't like it, my opinion of course. I think the 'piano' solo
John Goodsall does on the second Fire Merchants CD is much better. Just
because you can create the sound doesn't mean you have to. And have you
heard the keyboard sound Bill Berends creates with his midi-guitar in
Mastermind? That is intense!

And yes I do concede that opinions about records can change over time. But
this idea that you can be a Crimhead and hate (the word people have used!)
every new Crim record until the 25th listening is still bizarre to me. There
are few records that I have hated at first and now love, especially by bands
I 'love'. It just seems to me at times, people go out of their way to say
how they didn't get a Crim record until so many listens. Like the music was
just too complex for a mere mortal to get it the first time.

And no, I have no heard Mr. Bungle yet. Although from the recent discussion
here I might pick one up. As you know there is just so much music out there
and so little time (or money) to spend on it!

As for Fripp's attitude towards his fans. Well that his business, but when
you compare it to how Yes handles their fans, Fripp certainly comes across a
selfish person. (and I am not saying he needs to be any other way, I am not
looking to change him or anyone else, I have enough trouble being me!)  I
would say that the Yes followers are fanatical as the KC ones. Yet it seems
the band always as time to talk to their fans. Like it or not Fripp wouldn't
being doing what he does without us! OK he might, but he might have a 'real'
job too. There are several million musicians who would love to quit their
day jobs to be able to what Fripp can, because of his fan-base.

The Aaron ends with:
<<I forget who wrote it, but it was beautifully put--something about how we
the audience are not the purpose of what Fripp does, but only the witnesses
of it. Yes, we are damned privileged to even *experience* KC--perhaps
spoiled rotten.<<

I'm not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand I can agree to it. On
the other, Fripp decides to tour, no one twists his arm to do it or to
release CDs. He decides to do it. It is in a sense his job. So he has
certain responsibilities to his audience, and we have certain
responsibilities as fans. But I would never feel privileged that Fripp is
playing for me. That sounds very close to putting them on pedestals and like
you said they are just regular people.

Keep the Faith (in the Music)
ken

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:04:26 -0500
From: "Grant Colburn" <grantco at greenbaynet dot com>
Subject: Bands and Playing with Friends

Really, this post is in regard to the numerous opinions about the 'supposed'
3-piece King Crimson and the seeming hope of some that Belew is leaving the
band.  I've read all the discussions of Bjork etc. singing for Crimson and
even some new KC 'dream' line ups (which I thought were off limits?) that
are beginning to appear, all from what I take to be a misreading of Fripp's
3-piece quote.

I often question how many people who throw around 'dream band' theories have
actually been in bands themselves. For all this theorizing about dream
lineups and "its time for Belew to leave," talk there always seems to be a
concept missing from the debate, and it is this:

Belew and Fripp are GOOD FRIENDS.

They like each other, they like to play together, and they get along. These
concepts seem to completely elude those who think making a band is like
putting together a recipe for pudding or something. Don't people understand
that its the people who need to get along in a band first before the musical
influences matter? At this point Fripp and Belew have played together for
about 20 years of KC's 30 year history. What person who is a musician would
you guess to be Fripp's closest friend if not Belew? Think back to the quote
of Belew's which said, "Give me a quartet, any quartet. As long as it has
Robert and me in it I'm happy." Doesn't this MEAN anything to any of you? To
me this just seems like the most obvious thing imaginable. Why does Fripp
keep working with Belew? Because he LIKES him! Not just as a
singer/lyricist/guitar player, but as a true, long lasting FRIEND. Just as
in a marriage, it takes more than the outside surface traits to make a
relationship last. Marrying the most beautiful woman in the world who shares
all your interests still is no guarantee that the relationship will work.
To me it seems like the marriages and relationships that work the best not
only need people who get along, but also people who (for want of a better
word) can accept and deal with your "crap," all the negative idiosyncrasies
about you that your closest friends are aware of, yet accept as part of you.
Surely Fripp and Belew have this type of relationship and a relationship
like this within a band is priceless. They are the Yin and Yang of each
other, Fripp the distant, analytical, mathematical, somewhat dark musical
force and Belew the extrovert, freewheeling, lighthearted and times humorous
musical force who sings and write lyrics as well as can understand and
actually play the interlocking parts that Fripp often writes.  Together they
create a well rounded whole.

Think of how hard their relationship would be to replace. People seem to
think that members in a band work together like an accounting office, get
the best people for the job and it will all work out great. But its the
people in the band who decide who is best for a particular job, and playing
and creating music in a group is more than just a job! You can theorize
about this person and that person working with Fripp but the bottom line is
whether they would actually get along musically AND personally. If Fripp has
found this person then who are we to suggest otherwise? Thirty years into
King Crimson I think the most important thing is for Robert Fripp to be
happy and obviously playing with Adrian Belew makes him happy. And
regardless of whether  some fans wish otherwise, for me the more Fripp is
happy, the better music he will create and share with us. Isn't this what
really matters most?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 19:10:00 -0400
From: John Ott <johnott at earthlink dot net>
Subject: Re: Asia does Starless

> That's interesting, because I know that one of the Wetton line-ups of ASIA
> performed Starless live. I'm not a fan of Asia, and I haven't heard them do
> this piece, but I noticed a three-minute version of Starless listed on one
> of the Asia live albums that my father (who is a fan) owns. Have any ETers
> heard this version of Starless? Is it any good?

Yep. A couple of the Wetton line-ups covered it.  It is on the 1990 live in
Moscow CD.  I like it.  Also "Book Of Saturdays" is on that CD.  It has Pat
Thrall instead of Steve Howe.  I saw the first Asia tour (and others) and I
know they did those and other Crimson tunes but can't remember which at the
moment. Something more uptempo.  I think it was either Great Deceiver or
21CSM.  Maybe both.  It has been awhile, I could be geezing.

I've seen ELP cover Crimson also, I like it too.

(You trust the turd's opinions  more than your Fathers ???)

later
John
DC-ET

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 19:52:12 -0500
From: "Antoine W. Caron" <awcaron at pop dot total dot net>
Subject: "someone worth imitating?"

"R G" <rg429 at hotmail dot com> wrote in ET#719:

>So what's the point of having a vocal style to
>imitate (of all people) the Beatles? Why not even someone worth imitating?
>
>
>I can't be the only person on the planet who hates the Beatles..

You'd be surprised!

aWc

Antoine W. Caron
awcaron at total dot net
antoine dot caron at nrc dot ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 21:28:00 EDT
From: ChalkPie88 at aol dot com
Subject: HDCD

If anybody hasn't heard HDCD yet, it is superb!!!!! I am fortunate enough to
own a Rotel CD player with HDCD, and I just bought the new 24 bit remasters
of "Islands" and "Lizard" - both with HDCD. Really great stuff. Dynamic range
is greatly expanded, along with crystalline detail. My question is this - if
Fripp is releasing all the old albums with HDCD, why wasn't the new stuff
(Projeckts boxed set, TCOL) also released in HDCD?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 21:42:10 EDT
From: Price499 at aol dot com
Subject: Wetton/Asia Starless

In a message dated 7/27/00 6:36:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk writes:

>That's interesting, because I know that one of the Wetton line-ups of ASIA
>performed Starless live. I'm not a fan of Asia, and I haven't heard them
>do this piece, but I noticed a three-minute version of Starless listed on
>one of the Asia live albums that my father (who is a fan) owns. Have any
>ETers heard this version of Starless? Is it any good?

I have the version and was very pleased, but I don't know that the old line
Crimson fan would be amused.  Wetton has it stripped down to an electric
sounding acoustic version.  John's voice is at its finest form on the song,
but the crowd noise is played up for the live recording.

As for "Monkey Business" I really like the live Wetton version of "The
Night Watch" on that album.  He also does a studio version of "Doctor
Diamond."  My favorite song on the disc is a re-recorded version of
"Confessions" which he had released on the now unavailable Jacknife
project, "I Wish You Would."

Steve Price

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 23:13:00 -0300
From: Lucas Bleicher <bleicher at who dot net>
Subject: Starless '97

> AND THE 1997 LIVE VERSION OF STARLESS.

Where can I find this?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 21:32:00 -0500
From: "Grant Colburn" <grantco at greenbaynet dot com>
Subject: re" Vocals?

RG wrote:

"This is just an observation of mine, but I'm curious what others may
think..  does anyone else think Adrian's vocals sound too Beatle-esque at
times? I don't mean in general, but a few specific songs. "Sex Sleep,"
"Dinosaur," and "Frying Pan" mostly."

Uh, actually no I don't. For a start I question what exactly you mean by
vocals sounding "Beatle-esque." I don't think the vocals are what sound
like the Beatles, its the chord progressions and the melodies. Its not like
Adrian is giving us his best Liverpudlian accent or anything! :-)

 "KC has always been a complete original in every other regard - composing,
interaction among instruments, improvisation, rhythm and percussion,
etc. So what's the point of having a vocal style to imitate (of all people)
the Beatles? Why not even someone worth imitating?"

Now, now..... you've gotta realize regardless of your personal taste that
the Beatles are one of the biggest and most legendary bands of all time so
your comment of their being "worth" imitating is purely your personal
opinion. :-) Plus, like I said before, really its the melodies and chord
progressions you are recognizing as Beatle-esque, not actually the sound of
Belew's voice. Be that as it may I also don't think that Beatles influence
is as far away from KC's past as you think it is. The earliest albums
certainly grew out from a path originally paved by the experimentations of
the Beatles. I would also be of the opinion that songs like "Happy Family,"
"Indoor Games" "Ladies of the Road," etc. HAVE Beatle influence within
their sound, especially the later "I Am the Walrus" era.

" I can't be the only person on the planet who hates the Beatles.. but
that's a separate issue."

Well, actually I think its your main issue. Though I wouldn't consider
myself a huge Beatles fan (especially their early work), its a fairly
misguided music listener who does not at least respect and appreciate what
the Beatles did for "popular" music. Through them one may find much of the
evolution from the poppy 60's to the rockin' 70's and beyond.

"I think Adrian's singing is fantastic in his normal voice ("Matte Kudasai"
as one of the best examples),"

Of course with Matte Kudasai I believe what we are hearing is Belew putting
vocals to a song whose music was written by Robert Fripp (especially when
compared to "North Star" from Fripp's Exposure album). Again, my theory is
that its not the sound of Belew's voice which is like the Beatles but the
chords and melodies he sometimes writes.

"and I think this imitation only detracts from it. Any other opinions?"

Yeah, basically I think you don't like the Beatles very much!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 22:34:26 -0400
From: "Craig J. Clark" <cjclark at earthlink dot net>
Subject: Re: radio sighting

In ET 717, Mikewyz at aol dot com wrote:
>
> King Crimson on the radio recently:
>
> Friday night, around 10:15 pm, WPRB (princeton) played "One More Red
> Nightmare" followed by "Indoor Games." a few hours later (when I got
> backin the car), they played "Fracture" followed by "FracKtured".
> coulda beenan all KC-show, but i wasn't listening continuously.

I can confirm that WPRB did play five hours of nonstop King Crimson music
on Friday night, July 21.  I know this because when I was driving home from
Princeton at 12:30 a.m. (Saturday) I heard all four parts of "Larks'
Tongues in Aspic" in order -- a not unpleasant experience.  This was
followed by the duo of "Fracture" and "FraKcured" which you heard and --
because the DJ was big on thematic lumps -- "21st Century Schizoid Man,"
"Pictures of a City" and "Cirkus" (i.e. the leadoff tracks of the first
three albums).

I fell asleep soon after getting home -- by which time he had started
playing the Central Park Club release in its entirety (or at least I assume
he did) -- but it was a great way to fill a lonely ride home through
torrential rains.  You gotta love college radio.

--
Craig J. Clark          "I believe -- so strongly -- in mayonnaise."
cjclark at earthlink dot net                                 --Elmo Oxygen,
http://home.earthlink.net/~cjclark            denizen of Schizopolis

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 23:16:10 -0400
From: Edward Banatt <ebanatt at internexus dot net>
Subject: out-bjorked

>>.....Are you saying KC could not have a "vocals only" singer?  Sooo a
>>singer can't be a musician?  Whoops.

Sorry but this response was a cocktail of missing the point mixed with
putting words in my mouth. The wink-icon does not make that right,
therefore I'd like to duly correct:

1. I was not 'bashing' Bjork in any way even she herself could object to.
Her chosen focus is on vocals and composition, of - as I already implied -
the highly original (one might say wacky) kind. She has no interest in
being a brilliant instrumentalist. We would have noticed were that not so.
Hence my synoptic description of her not being an instrumentalist.

2. Where on earth do I say a singer cannot be a musician??? Crooked
deductions remain at the respondent's account.

Your original email was not as clear as this one, and I do believe my post
was not concise enough, so allow me to reword it :

>>.....Are you saying KC could not have a "vocals only" singer?

Eddie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 23:16:33 -0400
From: David Vella <dvella at skidmore dot edu>
Subject: 3 Piece Crimson? Look Out Belew!

Fellow Crimsomaniacs,

	Some rather strange posts in recent issues (to which I'm
about to contribute) ....somebody misreads a Fripp diary entry, and
suddenly there is a slew of posts about Crimson without Adrian.
Say what?  Even when a number of people provide the correct
interpretation, the discussions continue .... a thread is born!
This thread has nothing to do with reality.  The worst offender is
whoever wrote this:

>>I am in the thick of the crowd of those who thrill to the very
idea of getting rid of Belew, despite my very high opinion of TCoL.
KC has long stood for diversity and groundbreaking music, and I'm
inclined to agree with those who suspect that removing AB would
usher in a great new era.<<

Ummm....Crowd? What crowd?  So far I've only heard one call for his
departure....yours!  But perhaps I underestimate the groundswell
of opinion on this matter?  Even if that were the case, there are
three things to consider:

a) Our opinions don't matter.  The band decides who's in and who's
out, not the fans (It's Deja Vrooom all over again!  See my post
in #714 on the Bjork thread.)

b) A polite person might have said "It might be interesting to
consider how KC would develop without Belew" or "I wonder how
Crimson would sound without Belew".  But "thrill to the very idea
of getting rid of Belew"?  And "removing AB would usher in a great
new era"?  C'mon!  Where are your manners?  That has to be among
the rudest things I've ever read in ET.

c) You could be wrong.

Why don't we just officially change the name of this newsletter to
ELEPHANT TURD and be done with it?

Hey!  I have a great idea.  I've been reading years of Fripp diary
posts on the weight of audience expectation, and of songs not being
performed (FraKctured) due to the presence of bootleggers, of
Fripp walking off stage do to flash photo violations, of the vampiric
soul-sucking autograph seekers causing Fripp to consider giving up
musiKCing, or to suddenly disband the group just when it is poised at
the pinnacle of success.  When I think of all the bad feelings caused
by tactless ET or DGM guestbook posts about Adrian's lyrics, or Pat's
drumming, or Trey's tutelage under Fripp, etc.  I suddenly realized
how much better this band would be without ..... fans!

In fact, I am in the thick of the crowd of those who thrill to the
very idea of getting rid of the fans, despite my very high opinion
of live Crimson.  KC has long stood for multiple recursive irony
and groundbreaking music, and I'm inclined to agree with those who
suspect that removing the fans would usher in a great new era.

And without fans, there'd be no reason for Rock critics or record
companies to bother the band either!

Then when the band plays in my living room (they'd play for free,
too, since otherwise, I'd be a fan...), everything they do would be
pure and untainted, and every band member (including the way-too-much
maligned lyricists), past, present & future, would be welcome in my
house.  (This does not mean I prefer all incarnations of the band
with equal weight, nor does it mean that just because somebody is a
member of King Crimson, they are beyond reproach.  There is no
fetishizing here!  But truly, there has been only one person over
the past 31 years of Crimson history who has really rubbed me the
wrong way.  He left the band long ago, and I won't bother naming
names.  Let's just say that in 31 years Robert managed to make one
bad decision in choosing, umm..., shall we say "less than perfect"
company.  But I'd be polite enough to welcome even this character to
my house...or my newsletter.)

Sorry for going on and on.  I was going to end this post with the
Elephant Turd remark above, but then these last 4 paragraphs came
suddenly to me, as a lark.  When I manage to disconnect my Larks'
Tongue from its position firmly ensconced in my cheek, I'm going to
ask Toby to kill this "life without Adrian" thread, so we can get on
with discussions of other Aspics (forgive me!) of this band.

Eagerly waiting for the American leg of the tour, and hoping it will
be a 4-piece and healthy Crimson, still!

By the way, I'm one of those who liked most of the Crimson albums,
including TCoL, upon first listening.  But that's not to say that
repeated listenings didn't reveal nuances, subtleties that I missed
at first, and furthermore, repeated listenings usually increased my
appreciation for the album even in cases where I liked it to begin
with.

-David
--

==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*
David C. Vella                        Office:  Harder Hall 219
Associate Professor of Mathematics             518-580-5291
Skidmore College                               dvella at skidmore dot edu
Saratoga Springs, NY 12866              Home:  518-587-5363

        web-page: http://www.skidmore.edu/~dvella/dcvbio1.htm

==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*

	`I prove a theorem and the house expands,
	the windows jerk free to hover near the ceiling,
	the ceiling floats away with a sigh.'

					-Rita Dove
					US Poet Laureate (1993)

	'Those who dream by day are cognizant of many things
	that escape those who dream only at night'

					-Edgar Allan Poe

==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 00:10:28 -0400
From: tonyola <tonyola at mediaone dot net>
Subject: Re: vocals..?

"R G" <rg429 at hotmail dot com> wrote...

> This is just an observation of mine, but I'm curious what others may think..
> does anyone else think Adrian's vocals sound too Beatle-esque at times? I
> don't mean in general, but a few specific songs. "Sex Sleep," "Dinosaur,"
> and "Frying Pan" mostly. [.....] Any other opinions?
>

I suppose one could make the case that the timbre of voice that Belew
uses sounds vaguely like John Lennon on parts of the songs mentioned
above, but that's as far as it goes. Lennon, however, would frequently
double-track his vocals and add echo as well as compression, and I don't
hear Belew using those tricks. (According to George Martin, Lennon
greatly disliked the sound of his own voice and would beg Martin to
process it any way he could to make it sound "different"). I don't hear
anything at all resembling the phrasing, intonation, or style of either
Lennon or McCartney. Even if Belew's voice was slightly Beatle-esqe by
nature, is it really his fault? After all, Axl Rose sounded uncannily
like Ethel Merman at times, and I'm sure that Rose didn't intend that. I
wonder what R.G. would say if Belew sang an octave higher - would he
accuse him of sounding like Jon Anderson or Robert Plant?

If anything Beatle-esque shows up at all in recent Crimso music, it's in
the music itself. I hear subtle hints of "I Want You (She's so Heavy)"
in "People" and "I Am the Walrus" in "Dinosaur". Nothing wrong with
that, in my opinion - not every song should be in 13/8:17/8 and have 14
chord changes, and if you need to borrow, you might as well borrow from
the best....

Tony Evans
Olasongs
tonyola at mediaone dot net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 09:15:03 +0200
From: Gnad Markus <MGnad at rundschau dot co dot at>
Subject: Prog Vs Commercial

Hello All!

Sandy Starr wrote (incorrectly ascribed to Toby Howard in ET719)
"I think I know what Markus is referring to here: the tendency for 'prog'
bands to turn out shorter songs, use more 80s-era synthesised sounds (and
drums), and (gasp!) even turn out the odd hit single during the 1980s.
However, at the same time, I think the 'prog vs. commercial' dichotomy is a
problematic one. It's often used by prog-snobs to imply that anything that
does well commercially is bad, and concomitantly that the masses can't
appreciate good music.

I'm certain you don't fit this stereotype Markus :-), but do you know what
I'm talking about? Some great examples of prog-snobbery in action (and
unfortunately coming from a great musician) can be found in Dave Stewart's
liner notes to the 'Complete' 2CD set by National Health."

Yeah, thank you. You got it right. I'm still working on my English, so I'm
not always getting the point for all to see. What my problem is with this
"prog vs commerical" debate is that often that good old bands are identified
with their odd hit singles, for example.
Too many people running around connecting Yes at first with "Owner Of
A Lonely Heart", Bowie with "Let's Dance", Floyd with "Kick In The Balls"
and so on.
(But then, people are connecting KC with "That Schizoid Man".)

And that is.... well, not right. Because that hit single isn't the main
attribute
of these artists.

And again, not to say that the commercial periods are that bad, either.
Just another step in evolution.

Yeah, Sandy, NOISE RULES!!!

Markus

"What Are Those Things?"
- RF

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:49:33 +0400
From: "Iscander the Aquarius" <iscander at mtu-net dot ru>
Subject: Re: BEATlesque Belew vox

In #719 "R G" <rg429 at hotmail dot com>  wrote:

>does anyone else think Adrian's vocals sound too Beatle-esque at times? I
>don't mean in general, but a few specific songs. "Sex Sleep," "Dinosaur,"
>and "Frying Pan" mostly.

Yeah,sure,especially at the CHORUS parts :))) The Beatles VERY often used
such distorted and extremal vocals.And "Sex ..."  always reminded me of
"Yesterday"..Yeah-all these tunes are POP-music,definitely ;) ! TOO MUCH
NOTES!!! TOO MUCH !!!

>Why not even someone worth imitating?

Mmmm...Yeah,Rob Zombie,for example? Good old Rob ...Or Barney
Greenway,maybe?

> I think Adrian's singing is fantastic in his normal voice
> "Matte Kudasai" as one of the best examples),

Oh noooo...Not this "Something" again :)> !!! It always reminded me of this
hateful Beatlesong.I thought you REALLY hate The Beatles but now everybody
sees that your soul is ready for selling to those awful Beatles!  Nobody's
perfect,really :)

"There's a fog upon L.A. and RG has lost his way"

A\\
Jai guru deva OM
www.iscander.com
www.iscander.agava.ru

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 09:36:44 +0100
From: Sandy Starr <s dot starr at cScape dot com>
Subject: Beatles influences and groupie songs

In ET #719, "R G" <rg429 at hotmail dot com> writes:
>>This is just an observation of mine, but I'm curious what others may
think.. does anyone else think Adrian's vocals sound too Beatle-esque at
times? I don't mean in general, but a few specific songs. "Sex Sleep,"
"Dinosaur," and "Frying Pan" mostly. KC has always been a complete original
in every other regard - composing, interaction among instruments,
improvisation, rhythm and percussion, etc. So what's the point of having a
vocal style to imitate (of all people) the Beatles? Why not even someone
worth imitating? I can't be the only person on the planet who hates the
Beatles.. but that's a
separate issue. I think Adrian's singing is fantastic in his normal voice
("Matte Kudasai" as one of the best examples), and I think this imitation
only detracts from it. Any other opinions?<<

Hmmm, interesting. I don't think the Beatles are the gods that some people
seem to, but I do think a lot of their stuff is great, particularly later
stuff. That's not the point though - RG seems to be saying that:

1) One of KC's strengths is their originality, so an obvious influence by
another artist is a weakness.
2) AB's voice is at its best when it _isn't_ overly influenced by the
Beatles.

I can see both points of view, but the Beatles influence doesn't really
bother me. Interesting that RG picked 'SSEDD', 'Dinosaur' and 'Frying Pan'
to illustrate the influence; I would have picked 'Walking on Air' myself.
The chorus of 'Walking on Air' is _very_ John Lennon, down to the
inflections of the voice. But hey, I love the song, so shoot me!

AB's voice is indeed beautiful on 'Matte Kudasi'. It's also really nice on
'Two Hands'.

Also in ET #719, John Peacock writes:
>>I must say, the thing I find most tiresome about the early 70s Crim are
the Risque Groupie Numbers (Cadence and Cascade made me think of it, but the
prime offenders are Easy Money and Ladies of the Road). Much more
embarrassing and old fashioned than any number of mellotron-driven
twelve-minute epics.<<

Oh, I don't know, I think they're fun. After writing about lizards and
princes and crimson kings, I'm glad to see that Sinfield had time to slip
the sausage to some nice females, or at least thought about it. 'Ladies of
the Road' is a laugh - and that sax after the first verse is soooo sleazy,
it's wonderful.

Put it another way. You seduce somebody, take them home, close the curtains,
and put on:
1) Fracture
2) Larks Tongues in Aspic IV
3) Ladies of the Road

I think I know which one I'd pick.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:33:39 +0200
From: BUISSEZ Laurent <laurent dot buissez at culture dot gouv dot fr>
Subject: Wetton's covers of Crimson songs

On the John Wetton Band CD "Live in Poland 1998" the show includes covers
of "Starless", "Easy Money", "Book of Saturday" & "The Night Watch".
The Wetton voice is still impressive, but FOUR Crimson covers ?

Laurent BUISSEZ

Nom : BUISSEZ Laurent
Mel : buissez at culture dot fr
Tel : 04 72 00 43 12
Adr : DRAC RHONE-ALPES
      6 quai St-Vincent
      69283 LYON CEDEX 01

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:14:37 +0100
From: james dot morris at lotamo dot co dot uk
Subject: Re: New Tour, Old Material

In response to the various unhappy posters on the subject of the current KC
incarnation not playing pre-Thrak material on tour, I feel it is worth
drawing attention to RF's comments in the booklet which accompanies 'The
Night Watch' CD.

"A particular vocabulary, or repertoire, has currency for a particular
period. Then the wind changes direction and everything is
different. Whatever felt right, and worked for the players, suddenly is
without power: and probably for the audience. All established procedures,
opinions, small points of reliability, need to be dropped."

Couple this the idea that King Crimson comes together when there is music
for King Crimson to play (I cannot locate the exact quote right now) and it
makes sense that this current line up has chosen not to dip in to the back
catalogue, but rather has chosen to present the current work and to explore
the opportunities for bringing more King Crimson music into the world.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 08:13:24 -0400
From: "baxlap" <baxlap at email dot msn dot com>
Subject: Unfamiliar Leven/Belew?

With regard to the Moles Club CD, someone wrote...

Consider that few of the brits
could have been very familiar with Levin, and to some extent Belew. And the
audience is unaware that this band is Crimson (did Crimson know they were
Crimson at that point?) This band must have come across like a friggin'
tidalwave to an almost completely unexpecting crowd. For example, listen to
the silence and belated clapping after Belew's solo on Lark's Tongue. They
clearly didn't know what to do!

Andrew Baxley replies:

While I concur in the opininon that Discipline must have come across like a
friggin' tidal wave, I doubt Levin was unfamiliar to any Brits who read the
liner notes on their albums. At the time of the Moles Club show, Levin had
played on all three of Peter Gabriel's solo albums to date and had been a
member of his touring band for each of the subsequent tours.  There's surely
an audience overlap between Gabriel and Crimson (Fripp even produced PG2).
By this association (as well as Levin's other session gigs), my guess is
that many in the audience were familiar with Levin and knew he was a
monster.

As for Belew, his association with Zappa, Bowie and Talking Heads made him
one of the most sought-after players of the day. It's not like these guys
were the hicks from the sticks that Fripp and Bruford vaulted into
celebrity, as Jimmy Page and John Paul Jones did with Robert Plant and John
Bonham when they formed Led Zeppelin.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:30:56 +0200
From: Gnad Markus <MGnad at rundschau dot co dot at>
Subject: My First Time...

Hello all and Hi There!

After all these nostalgia-postings on our newspaper, some nostalgia of my
own crept up last night while listening to "that little sucker" (RF) Space
Groove II in my car.

I thought - after all these many postings to ET - that it was time to tell
you all who want to hear it, my story of "How I got into KC".  It's an
usual story, perhaps, but anyway.

I was working at a CD/HiFi shop in Linz for 2 years. I listened to
everything and when the time had come I said to myself: Now go and try that
King Crimson.  Only heard of them before, never heard them. Even didn't
know who was playing. Absolutely nothing. That was April 1999, exactly the
day I bought my first car - I was 22.

I went and grabbed some stuff, ITCOTCK, Red, Thrakattak, and - because I
read the sticker on the cover - the latest album "space groove- a king
crimson projeKct". Seemed to be the newest stuff.  Wow, and that one blew
me off. I subsequently played Space Groove II when presenting a hifi system
to customers.

Well I bought some CDs - the first, the last, VROOOM and Thrakattak,
because it sounded so heavy.

At first I didn't like the improvs and the old records, and I needed about
half a year to get a primitive oversight over what has been released and
who has played.  I discovered AB and RF, as well as some connections to
other musicians.  My first AB was Mr Music Head, and I loved him from the
start, my first RF was The First Day, followed by 1999, and I was.... well,
frightened of the ever-expanding activities of that man.  During the year I
got all the official KC releases and some solo stuff.  I quit the company
in October and went on to writing advertisements in a local newspaper.

There it was. The Eight Continent offered itself to me.  Soon I got hold of
ET and DGM pages, and the story began to run.  In November I got my copy of
the ProjeKcts, and it was then that I realised that this is INDEED the
greatest band in the world.

From month to month the doors opened - mail order, newsletter, guestbook.
The notes and diaries from Robert were printed and the archives grew.  I
worked on my collection of RF, AB, entered Gordon Haskell, David Cross, and
I crossed over to so many new bands and artists.  I even bought a guitar.

Nostalgia good or bad - at this point I'd just like to thank all you ETers
and the reading musiKcians for this great time that helped me find a new,
and possibly the best, direction in my music-loving-life.  All you ETers
are great guys and girls, and I have archived every email coming from
you. Peace also goes out to Gary Davis, David Cross, and Eric Tamm.  And
all ETers who contact me regularly - you know who you are.

Last but not least a great thank you to the ET team and, of course, to the
active Crimheads.

After 22 years of constant listening to great music, this form of listening
to and talking about music is definitely something new and obviously... the
best.

Markus

Music is the best. (FZ)

------------------------------

End of Elephant Talk Digest #720
********************************