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Subject: Elephant Talk #719


               E L E P H A N T    T A L K

        The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp
              and King Crimson enthusiasts

                        Number 719

                  Thursday, 27 July 2000

Today's Topics:

   Shizoid Dimension, Neubauten, defining prog rock and nostalgia, d
   King Crimson and Gentle Giant in radio
   meaning of "3-piece KC"
   Tell us of the Moles Club, my Crimson Brother....
   A response to Andres : 3-piece KC!
   King Crimson "Three Piece"?
   ProjeKct Jam Lab
   TCOL--opinion
   Repeated listenings of "Pair"
   re Deja vroom probs
   vocals..?
   Ade's "departure"
   TCOL history; ancient history; photo hysteria
   Vocals, Promoter, Support, Piano, ITWOP, Sexism, Sinfield, New Direction
   Pummeled into (another) submission
   out-bjorked
   3 piece Crimson? No! How about a 5 piece Crimson?
   Re: New Tour, Old Material
   Playboy translated - LTIA on french TV - Flash exit?
   ancient & modern (was Re: Bozzio Levin)
   Defending Adrian Belew, and differences of opinion on Yes

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Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:01:06 +0100
From: Toby Howard <toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk>
Subject: Shizoid Dimension, Neubauten, defining prog rock and nostalgia, d

efending the current KC (yet again)
In response to an enquiry of mine, Mark <MDENACI at aol dot com> writes:
>>Sandy Starr asked (in ET#715) for some opinions on the Schizoid Dimension
tribute CD.  I've had it for a couple of years now, and definitely would
recommend it, unless you are primarily interested in Belew-era KC (since
there is only one track representing the 80s).<<

Thanks buddy, you've intrigued me, I'll get the CD. I'm not primarily
interested in Belew-era KC, I'm interested in _every_ era of KC. And my
favoirite KC line-up is always the one I happen to be listening to at the
time. :-)

Mark <MDENACI at aol dot com> then writes:
>>In the same issue, Matthew K. Smith asked about Richard Palmer-James.
Matthew, you might be interested in a recently-released CD called Monkey
Business: 1972-1997, by John Wetton and Richard Palmer-James...
unfortunately, a new version of Starless makes me wince.<<

That's interesting, because I know that one of the Wetton line-ups of ASIA
performed Starless live. I'm not a fan of Asia, and I haven't heard them do
this piece, but I noticed a three-minute version of Starless listed on one
of the Asia live albums that my father (who is a fan) owns. Have any ETers
heard this version of Starless? Is it any good?

Justin Kolodziej writes:
>>Count me in as another fan of both Einsturzende Neubauten and King
Crimson.  Latter-period Neubauten ranks as possibly the most beautiful music
I've heard, while the early album "Drawings of Patient O.T." is among the
most intense and frightening works I've ever heard.<<

Glad to see another KC/EN fan, Justin! With us two and Markus Gnad, that
makes three noise-addicted lunatics hanging around on ET. If you want to
hear some _really_ scary early Neubauten, try the first volume of Strategies
Against Architecture. Wow!

Justin Kolodziej then writes:
>>Just to relate this to something a little more on-topic, their song
NNNAAAMMM is in 9/4.<<

It certainly is! And because it opens with the vocal chant and then the
handclapping in 9/4, with the claps on the 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th and 9th beats
(two half-beats on that last one), if you practice a little then you can
sing it and clap along in time at home. 9/4 has never sounded so funky.

Now, there are a number of interesting posts in ET#717 on the topics of prog
rock and nostalgia, which I would like to respond to.

Timothy Cox writes:
>>it would seem that some ET posters are having some ear problems. It is
ridiculous to label some ET members as nostalgic because they wish to hear
older material or a similar style. Good music is relevant in any period.
J.S.Bach sounds as modern today as he did in the 1700's and his interlocking
patterns predate Fripps by a long shot.<<

Don't get me wrong Timothy, I agree with you that great material is
timeless, and transcends the era in which it was made. As I lover of Bach, I
also think that your example is apposite. My criticism of nostalgia-oriented
bands is not that their material has dated badly (often it has not), but
that they rest on their past achievements.

At its worst, this means a band putting out an occasional mediocre new
album, which sounds like a shadow of former glories, and 'touring' it as a
pretext to trot out the classics. This can be quite enjoyable, like a school
reunion. But I draw a distinction between the 'school reunion' vibe and the
'I'm being taught something I never learnt at school' vibe which I
experienced at the two recent KC concerts I attended.

Markus Gnad writes:
>>Jeremy Robinson, within your description of Prog Rock bands you forgot one
thing: The rise into more commercial territory throughout the 80's (as a
band, or split up). Ex: ELP, Asia, Yes, Floyd, Genesis, Gabriel, Starship,
Bowie, Collins and so on. Not to say that everyone of them did bad, but,
yes, it's there.<<

I think I know what Markus is referring to here: the tendency for 'prog'
bands to turn out shorter songs, use more 80s-era synthesised sounds (and
drums), and (gasp!) even turn out the odd hit single during the 1980s.
However, at the same time, I think the 'prog vs. commercial' dichotomy is a
problematic one. It's often used by prog-snobs to imply that anything that
does well commercially is bad, and concomitantly that the masses can't
appreciate good music.

I'm certain you don't fit this stereotype Markus :-), but do you know what
I'm talking about? Some great examples of prog-snobbery in action (and
unfortunately coming from a great musician) can be found in Dave Stewart's
liner notes to the 'Complete' 2CD set by National Health.

Andres Gomez writes:
>>I have played on prog rock band and I live in Costa Rica, which totally
defies any social-economic condition associated with prog rock.  Instead, it
could be linked to a growing artistic-intellectual sector in society, which
is sensitive to outstanding music; a group of people in search for better
answers to simple questions musically and in life.<<

Interesting definition, Andres, but I'd propose an alternative one. Instead
of 'a group of people in search for better answers to simple questions
musically and in life,' how about 'a group of people in search for _more
complex_ answers to simple questions musically and in life.'

Prog tends to be associated with complexity of one kind or another - the
results can sometimes be wonderful, but it's easy if you're a prog fan to
close your ears to the wonderfully _simple_ musical answers to life's
questions. To be _simple_ is not to be _simplistic_ - as evidence, I point
you to great old blues musicians.

The themes of prog and nostalgia in ET#717 then move on to more criticism
and speculation about the current KC: about TCOL, about KC's decision not to
play older material, about KC's future. I would like to address some of
these criticisms.

Ken Brown writes:

>>my biggest gripe, this notion that ones needs to listen to something
multiple times before getting it. And its corollary of how many people seem
not to like Crim records the first time. I find both of these very strange.
The idea that you can be a Crim head yet hate every Crim record the first
time you hear is bizarre to say the least.<<

I agree with Ken that you don't _have_ to listen to something numerous times
before getting it - some of the best music can be immediately appealing. In
fact, I'm one of those people who liked TCOL almost immediately.

But there have been so many times when something I haven't liked the first
time has become wonderful on repeated listenings, that I just know for a
fact that this can happen. I'm not just talking about KC, I'm talking about
music by lots of bands. In fact, whenever I buy a new album by a band whose
other stuff I like, I make a point of putting it on every night when I go to
bed for several nights. This is to give a new album the benefit of the
doubt. Sometimes it pays off. Sometimes it doesn't. The times when it does
make up for the times when it doesn't.

On a similar theme, Aaron Deglanville writes:
>>as many have suggested, supposed "problems" with KC material often
magically resolve themselves after repeated listening, like puzzles solved
[on this note, can anyone advise: does "Pair" get very much better with
repeated listening, or am I wasting my time?]<<

Don't give up Aaron, you aren't wasting your time. I've been listening to
Three of a Perfect Pair since my father played me the vinyl way back in the
1980s, and it is wonderful in its own way. Four stonkingly good songs kick
it off, and then with 'Nuages' and 'Industry' you enter a magical world of
instrumentals and sounds. When LTiA3 fades out, the album ends on a note of
uncertainty (neither happy nor sad) about the band's future. Cue last 80s
tour, killer performance on Absent Lovers, ten years' hiatus and then a
cracking good double trio!

Aaron Deglanville then writes:
>>KC's catalogue is too vast and rich to justify wholesale neglect.  Any KC
show would be better off (more diverse, exciting, and satisfying) with
multiple KC incarnations acknowledged.<<

Aaron, I think that your first statement is correct and your second
statement is incorrect. Yes, the KC catalogue most definitely _is_ too vast
and rich to justify wholesale neglect. Nor will it suffer such neglect, as
long as the old albums exist and you and I are listening to them - that's
the miracle of recorded music!

At the same time, any KC show would _not_ necessarily be better off with
multiple KC incarnations acknowledged, because the music has to seem
appropriate to the band. This may sound a little abstract - why wouldn't the
music appear appropriate to the band, can't they just adapt it, etc. - but
unless the band feels they are doing the music justice and the music is
doing them justice, then the music will come across as contrived. Yes, the
show would be more 'diverse' in terms of pieces selected, but it would not
necessarily benefit overall.

Besides, the wonderful improvs that the band introduced into the European
shows were quite 'diverse' enough for me!

Alberto Diaz writes, after having seen Bill Bruford's Earthworks live:
>>Before leaving the club I could even talk to Mr. William Bruford and after
thanking him from the very bottom of my heart I told him that he had been
that night the real Constructor of Light.<<

Alberto, I'm really glad that you enjoyed the Bruford concert. Bruford is
one of my favourite musicians too. But to praise Bruford doesn't have to
mean denigrating the new KC, does it? Surely there's enough room in the
wonderful world of music for both of them? I love Bill Bruford's music, I
love Tony Levin's music, I love the new KC, and I watch the seperate
development of all three parties with interest and excitement.

NotoriousAWOL at aol dot com writes:
>>Now post- "3-pieceKC" diary entries mention how the future beckons
mysteriously . To us, maybe, but not to Fripp. Adrian quit or was asked to
leave the band. That's my vibe! Wow I'm thrilled! I like Adrian but I think
the time has come.<<

Please, felloe ETers, I don't think we're in any position to speculate
accurately on either the future of this KC line-up or the interrelationships
between the band members. Just because we read the diaries of some of them,
which helps us know them better than before, doesn't mean we know them
personally! It's this kind of speculation, the likes of which surrounded 'I
Have a Dream', that gets ET called 'a turd.'

Matt Richardson writes:
>>Overall I think this is a good disc that embraces the past as KC prepares
to take another bold step into the future and hopefully it won't be 5 more
years before we see another release.<<

Amen to wanting the new line-up to explore further territory and release
more albums, but I doubt they'll do this in a hurry. Why? Because RF, AB, TG
and PM are all so damned busy these days!

KC69-74 produced a wealth and diversity of material in five years because RF
and his colleagues spent so much of their time Crimsoning. Compare that to
today. RF is on the management team of DGM and BTV, runs Guitar Craft
courses, works on soundscapes, and also finds a tiny bit of peace and quiet.
AB continues doing wonderful solo albums and finds time to work with people
like Nine Inch Nails. TG has a fantastic band of his own, and finds time to
work with people like Eric Johnson. PM, apart from working on MasticA,
spends loads of time tweaking and remixing various recorded material into
new forms a la ProjeKct X.

So yeah, it's a bummer that we don't see more new KC albums than we do. But
hey, it's great that we see so many diverse and interesting projects from
the same bunch of guys. I only pray that the current line-up aren't so
disillusioned by recent experiences that they don't push on and explore the
remarkable future potential that they so obviously have.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:17:35 +0200
From: Torsten Lasse <uzsrbw at UNI-BONN dot DE>
Subject: King Crimson and Gentle Giant in radio

Yesterday I enjoyed a radio show on the british "BFPS"...unfortunately I
only listen to the first hour of the show.

What makes me wonder is, that they played several King Crimson - Songs,
such as "Dinosaur", "Great Deceiver", "Elephant Talk" and "Easy Money",
and some great Gentle Giant songs (I never thought that I would hear
this great band in radio!). They played "The Advent of Panurge",
"Experience", "The Face", "Knots" and "For nobody". Wow!

I think this show, which was called "Jesterdays" will be  continued next
week...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:32:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Justin Weinberg <weinberj at gusun dot georgetown dot edu>
Subject: meaning of "3-piece KC"

Fripp wrote (July 11th):

"Very quick response to be followed: since I said the Milwaukee show was
too large, I'm assuming this is the debut show for the 3 piece KC?"

Contrary to some of the posts in the past few ETs, this does not mean that
KC is breaking up (whew!), nor does it mean that Adrian is leaving the
band (whew!).

This is just Fripp's way of saying: "I want the venue to be a small
one.  If it's not, I won't show.  Maybe (though it's a long, long
shot) the other three members of KC will play, but I won't.  In other
words: take my request about the venue seriously."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:46:40 -0400
From: "G. Emory Anderson" <gea at jedai dot com>
Subject: Tell us of the Moles Club, my Crimson Brother....

1. TCOL? Yeah its innovative, but is that really the point? For me TCOL is
more about consolidating the large musical vocabulary Crimson has developed
over the years. In other words, its about what you say, not how you say it!

2. Moles Club? Rotten sound quality. Some of the tunes are clearly
unfinished. Plenty of clams and flubs. But this is for me perhaps the most
exciting of the Collector's Club CDs. Despite the flaws, listen how this
3-week-old band plays a tune like Discipline. Consider that few of the brits
could have been very familiar with Levin, and to some extent Belew. And the
audience is unaware that this band is Crimson (did Crimson know they were
Crimson at that point?) This band must have come across like a friggin'
tidalwave to an almost completely unexpecting crowd. For example, listen to
the silence and belated clapping after Belew's solo on Lark's Tongue. They
clearly didn't know what to do!

Anyway, Is there someone out there who was there that can give us a detailed
account of what that was like? What was it like to look over at the
odd-looking American bass/stick player and hearing playing some unbelievable
shit.

Talk to us, my Crimson brother (or sister). Bring us back to the Moles club.
Spare no details. What else is ET for?
-Emory

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 10:18:01 +0200
From: Valerie Le Goff et Mickael Vedrine <valemik at club-internet dot fr>
Subject: A response to Andres : 3-piece KC!

Hi Eters, and Andres Gomez in particular,

I just red your ET contribution about a 3-piece KC and was really
bewildered. What, our beloved AB, who stunned us at the Paris concert,
could be out of KC !
I quickly jumped to RF's diary to check what you said, and there it was,
the fearful 3-piece KC. But you'd better read it once more, directly cut
and paste from the diary entry :

> Very quick response to be followed: since I said the Milwaukee show was
>  too large, I'm assuming this is the debut show for the 3 piece KC?

The missing piece in the 3-piece KC mentioned there is not AB, but RF,
who doesn't agree to play at the Milwaukee. Hopefully this won't happen,
and the location will be changed.
So, you'd better forget all your ideas about AB leaving KC. He is one
fourth of King Crimson. Moreover, lyrics and singing have always been a
part of KC.
Yours,
Mickael

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 10:27:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: TheMincer at webtv dot net (Ric Wilson)
Subject: King Crimson "Three Piece"?

Greetings and Salutations to all E.T. Heads out there in E.T. land. The
question that is floating around about a "3-piece King Crimson" is
baffling sort of...If referring to Robert Fripp's post in his DGM on
7/19 I think (?), where he made reference to "the big three", Then he is
writing about DGM's upper management I would think. I could be wrong,and
you can correct me if I am! The only other time I thought of a "3 Piece
Crimson", is during the "RED" lp era, where only Fripp, Bruford, and,
Wetton are on the cover (even though David Cross is credited).But surely
that's not it. Well,hell, 3 piece, 4 piece,6 piece, it will always
function like a well oiled machine! Hail to the KING!
Love you guys, Ric "Mincer" Wilson...
Dead Hippie/FM Radio Person.

P.S. If I'm wrong, please be gentle...

http://community.webtv.net/TheMincer/TheStarlessAndBibleBlackPage/RicWilson.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:16:59 -0400
From: "Kurt Angel" <kangel at cfl dot rr dot com>
Subject: ProjeKct Jam Lab

I've put an out take of a jam that in some ways reminds me of 70s Crimson up
on our MP3.com site. Hope you find it enjoyable.

 If you create music and want to try something different, read on.

I've been playing music with friends twice a week for our enjoyment. You can
hear out takes at www.mp3.com/thejamlab
We record right into my PC using Cubase. I am now connected to broadband and
have a CD-RW. Who wants to add, take away, remix, or submit tracks for some
of us to do the same. A virtual Jam Lab or ProjeKct. Of course the Orlando
Jam Lab is allways open for the real thing here in Orlando, FL

It is not about the perfect note or perfect song. It is about having some
fun and bragging rights to a few friends. If interested we can work out the
transfer methods later.

Kurt Angel

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 19:46:16 +0000
From: Luisc <nop34667 at mail dot telepac dot pt>
Subject: TCOL--opinion

Sorry
But TCOL is the poor KC Album ,
I like the old KC 69/72 73/74 and I like very much the 80/84 era
the 94/95 is aninteresting  experience with the double trio.
But this last album its dificult to listen,the sound is too much
digital to much compressed,the sound of drums is terrible,i think
for that sound Fripp don`t need a drumer he had rhythmboxes.
And for last i like very much Bil & tony levin and i think it
was a big  Fripp mistake to no include tony & Bill.
For exemple Peter Gabriel  allways call Tony Levin for the studio
and Live work since 1977 because he is a great musician.
best
LC

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:22:33 -0500
From: "Chip Orr" <ORRC at haynesboone dot com>
Subject: Repeated listenings of "Pair"

Aaron Deglanville (whose take on TCoL was refreshing) asks in ET#717 "does
'Pair' get very much better with repeated listening, or am I wasting my
time?"

Reader's Digest answer - For this Crimhead, Industry and Larks III got
stronger with repeated listenings, but the rest did not.

Lengthier answer - ToaPP always sounded to me like a memorial to a band
that had long since ceased being Crimson but had become a collection of
individuals.  Don't get me wrong - I like the album ok, and it has moments
that I think rightly belong to the name "King Crimson" (e.g., Three of a
Perfect Pair, Industry, Larks III).  But some of it sounds like Belew doing
Crimson (Dig Me) or Belew doing Belew (Model Man) or Fripp doing Fripp
(Nuages) or Levin doing industrial disco (Sleepless).

I saw the mighty Crim twice on the ToaPP tour and loved the shows.  But it
didn't surprise me in the least that Crimson broke up shortly thereafter.
ToaPP always sounded to me like the breakup just made official what had
obviously already happened spiritually.

An aisde re: the old stuff new stuff debate.  The current Crim probably
would tear it up on Industry, though I don't think that would satisfy those
wanting to hear Schizoid or Red.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 22:07:41 +0800
From: Lars Brondum <lars dot brondum at telia dot com>
Subject: re Deja vroom probs

Hi Crimsonites!

I'm having a heck of a time trying to get any music from the Deja VROOM
DVD!  The video is fine, but no music. I have a iMac DV G3 400 mHz
system 9.0.4  with the latest DVD 2.2 update.  It's driving me nuts... I
have the Zep "The Song Remains the Same" DVD which works fine, so I am
almost suspecting that the Deja VROOM DVD is defect. Has anyone else had
the same prob?

Kindly,

Lars

lb at ct dot se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 17:04:59 EDT
From: "R G" <rg429 at hotmail dot com>
Subject: vocals..?

This is just an observation of mine, but I'm curious what others may think..
does anyone else think Adrian's vocals sound too Beatle-esque at times? I
don't mean in general, but a few specific songs. "Sex Sleep," "Dinosaur,"
and "Frying Pan" mostly. KC has always been a complete original in every
other regard - composing, interaction among instruments, improvisation,
rhythm and percussion, etc. So what's the point of having a vocal style to
imitate (of all people) the Beatles? Why not even someone worth imitating? I
can't be the only person on the planet who hates the Beatles.. but that's a
separate issue. I think Adrian's singing is fantastic in his normal voice
("Matte Kudasai" as one of the best examples), and I think this imitation
only detracts from it. Any other opinions?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 18:57:22 -0400
From: Dave & Racquel <frippnotised at dca dot net>
Subject: Ade's "departure"

Even if these reports of Ade leaving the band turn out to be
correct, it's obvious that they are in no way based on
facts. I truly doubt Fripp would report someone's formal
departure in such a way. This kind of speculation is
definitely of the most turdy nature.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 16:45:42 -0700
From: Rob MacCoun <maccoun at socrates dot Berkeley dot EDU>
Subject: TCOL history; ancient history; photo hysteria

 >As for the song TCOL, it sounds
 >to me like its been around for a couple of years already, (supposedly its
 >what they played first at a rehearsal before Fripp said the immortal "What
 >are those things?" in regard to the V-drums)

Hmmm, I wonder.  TCOL is clearly based on Light Construction and Heavy
Construction (with the melody lines woven together artfully), which didn't
surface until Live Groove.  (And by the way, Fripp has already stated that
LTIA4 revists Red as well as LTIA2, in the TCOL press release--or maybe in
that web interview.)

As for this debate about not playing old tunes on tour -- Toby, I beg you,
put this thread out of its (our) misery!

I hate concert flash photography and fully respect RF's position, but I
agree that he seems to be seems to be losing a sense of proportion, at the
expense of the mostly well-meaning and well-behaved fans.  What happened to
his insight in the "Let the Power Fall" notes about equal and opposite
reactions?  Two quotes come to mind: "My experience is what I agree to
attend to.  Only those items I notice shape my mind" (William James, quoted
in Lovingkindness by Sharon Salzberg).  "Paying attention to what we choose
to pay it to is probably the greatest freedom we have" (S Gaskin, "This
Season's People").

Having said that, I for one would be interested in hearing AB, PM, and TG
without RF for an evening.

Rob MacCoun
Goldman School of Public Policy & Boalt Hall School of Law,
Univ. Calif. at Berkeley, 2607 Hearst Ave. MC7320
Berkeley CA 94720-7320
t/510-642-7518, f/510-643-9657
maccoun at socrates dot berkeley dot edu
http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~maccoun/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 01:31:00 +0100
From: John Peacock <johndrewp at zoo dot co dot uk>
Subject: Vocals, Promoter, Support, Piano, ITWOP, Sexism, Sinfield, New

Direction
Elephant Talk wrote:

>  Jeremy Robinson said:
>
> Re. the recent thread in 'Elephant Talk' about female vocalists for King
> Crimson, I think Bjrk or P.J. Harvey would be stunning.

So that's decided then: A female vocalist next time.

So, who's going to tell Robert?

> Steve Smith pointed out:
>
> [I]t's *Fripp* who's pissed about the promoter wanting to put the kibosh
> on a club gig warmup
> prior to U.S. Crimson activity

And it doesn't bode well for the promoter's understanding of Crimson and
their audience: after all, given the choice between a club gig and a larger
hall, the Crim-head would choose both.

As support, they could hire a tribute band to do only pre-90s Crim material
to keep everybody happy (although if there were a trib band who could play
Fracture, then they would probably have better things to do with their
time). That could be funny.

> >The 'piano' solo on Oyster Soup
>
> ...rips.

And sounds like Keith Tippett on Cat Food.

Just bought ITWOP (which I hadn't heard for twenty years or so) and Lizard
in these cute new repro gatefold sleeves. I was more impressed than I
thought I would be by ITWOP, considering the bad press it's had over the
years, and played it back-to-back with TCOL the other day (coming back to
it... it gets better and better, honestly). It was interesting to spot the
similarities (Frippiness, obviously, but there is a genuine continuity
there).

I must say, the thing I find most tiresome about the early 70s Crim are the
Risque Groupie Numbers (Cadence and Cascade made me think of it, but the
prime offenders are Easy Money and Ladies of the Road). Much more
embarrassing and old fashioned than any number of mellotron-driven
twelve-minute epics.

I find it really odd that Pete Sinfield makes a good living as a lyricist,
though, considering he started out writing these flowery, hugely
over-metred epics. He has written songs for Celine Dion (and Cliff Richard
too, I think), but I remember him saying in an interview that he wasn't
going to work for her any more because she demanded an unearned writing
credit in return for the "honour" of recording his song. But a lyric he
wrote for her did buy him a house, apparantly.

Hey, what about Celine Dion for Crimson vocalist? She could shake a
tambourine and look
enthusiastic and short during the impros.

How about that for a new direction.

John

--
In the spirit of shameless self promotion, my songs may be found at:
 http://www.mp3.com/peacock
"sell yourself, sell yourself, expect nothing" as a sage saith.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 21:55:53 EDT
From: NotoriousAWOL at aol dot com
Subject: Pummeled into (another) submission

     Ouch! Did I hear it about my "3-piece KC" rant from my fellow ET
brothers and sisters! Even got a couple of personal responses. Well,I suppose
I deserve to be chastised by my more level-headed peers for this knee-jerk
reaction to a couple of unrelated post comments from RF,AD and others.      I
must confess it is a bit of an ego trip causing a minor international
stir,though. I assure one and all that said trip and  stir were earnestly
gotten from my honest misreading of things. Though I'd miss him on one hand,
perhaps thinking AD was leaving was a bit of wishful thinking on my part.
Time for reflection......

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 19:16:18 -0700
From: "Hoang Le" <TKHoangLe at email dot msn dot com>
Subject: out-bjorked

My post:
>Ever considered that, although musically prolific and original, Bjork is not
>an instrumentalist - let alone a bright one?

Respondent's post:

>>If you plan on bashing Bjork on this list, get the facts straight. ;) She
>>plays flute and keyboards.

>>.....Are you saying KC could not have a "vocals only" singer?  Sooo a
>>singer can't be a musician?  Whoops.

Sorry but this response was a cocktail of missing the point mixed with
putting words in my mouth. The wink-icon does not make that right, therefore
I'd like to duly correct:

1. I was not 'bashing' Bjork in any way even she herself could object to.
Her chosen focus is on vocals and composition, of - as I already implied -
the highly original (one might say wacky) kind. She has no interest in
being a brilliant instrumentalist. We would have noticed were that not so.
Hence my synoptic description of her not being an instrumentalist.

2. Where on earth do I say a singer cannot be a musician??? Crooked
deductions remain at the respondent's account.

Whoops indeed
Nic

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:05:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alfred Bello <alfbello at yahoo dot com>
Subject: 3 piece Crimson? No! How about a 5 piece Crimson?

Here we are again!

Even though not much attention is paid to my opinions, I feel I have a
right to express myself just as much as any of you, fellow ET members, so
here I go:

During the Projekcts phase I often suggested (to no avail, because our
moderator, Tony, would not post my thoughts) that since all the different
encarnations of the Projekcts group at the time always involved Fripp and
Gunn, what would a Fripp-less version of the group sound like.

Now the possibility of a trio (Belew, Gunn, Pastelotto) is being the
subject of a possible trend.

I would sell my soul to the devil to listen to a Belew, Gunn, Pastelotto,
Bruford and Levin incarnation of the band. Just for curosiosity's sake. By
no means do I wish to put our dear Robert down, not at all. I just wonder
what kind of music they are capable of delivering without him. I bet even
Tony is curious, so maybe this will get posted! Considering their
background, I can only imagine they would be great! Let them issue a
recording under any other name if the name is a problem. Let's just give
the the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they are worthless without Robert...
maybe not.

What do you fellow Crimsonites think?

Alf

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:38:37 -0400
From: Manuel Fernandez <destruye at cantv dot net>
Subject: Re: New Tour, Old Material

Grant Colburn wrote:

>>KC's catalogue is too vast and rich to justify wholesale neglect.  Any KC
>>show would be better off (more diverse, exciting, and satisfying) with
>>multiple KC incarnations acknowledged.
>
>Yes, if nostalgia is your main concern. If Crimson were a brand new band
>touring on their first album people wouldn't have these feelings. Though
>the norm for bands from the 70's is to play all the old hits, its certainly
>not a law. As I've said before, if no one shows up for the gigs maybe KC
>will rethink their position. I for one don't think they'll have a problem
>selling tickets though. If anything it always sounds like they could play
>bigger rooms and sell even more tickets if they actually wanted to.

I have to agree with this.  King Crimson as a performing band is in an
enviable position, able to afford the inmense luxury of ignoring an
incredible back catalogue and concentrating on their newest stuff.  Let's
put ourselves in their shoes (we should be so lucky).  With an album fresh
out, you would be itching to play the new stuff right away, not the old
workhorses.

In the case of King Crimson, live appearances are few and well apart; so
problems associated with repetition of a narrow set list are minimized.
Add to that the difficulty of the pieces and the improvisational nature of
the band and the problem virtually disappears. Further, you have a cache of
recent things

from the projeKcts, plus recent Thrak-era material for "relaxing"(?). Would
you want to play the old stuff?  Don't get me wrong, for the fan an ideal
show would be a mixture of new and old; but these guys, being impossibly
good musicians, probably get bored.

Of couse, one could argue the undeniable value of the old material, and it
would still be some sort of challenge, especially under some new
arrangement; but you would probably leave that for the later parts of the
tour, when you're actually sick of juggling with the new.  Sadly (for us)
KC tours are not THAT long...

The way I see it,  logistics and technical problems not withstanding, King
Crimson (or at least Fripp) is playing their dream concerts.   At least
hipothetically, they're having their revenge.   If I played on a band, I'd
like to have that luxury.

--
Manuel Fernandez O.
Penguin # 151938

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:59:56 +0200
From: masse at geocean dot u-bordeaux dot fr (Laurent MASSE)
Subject: Playboy translated - LTIA on french TV - Flash exit?

>CA PLANE TOUJOURS FURIEUSEMENT POUR MR. FRIPP ET SES CAMARADES
>
>Meme si on n'aime d'eux qu'un seul sublime morceau, In The Court Of The
>Crimson King, qui date deja, ca fait un bien fou de saviour que Robert
>Fripp et ses copains n'ont pas raccroche', qu'ils sont toujours la(et meme
>sur scen, al'Olympia le 25 jun).  Et qu'ils font toujours a peu pres la
>meme musique.  Pour nostalgiques des 70's.

OK, so here it goes (roughly):

MR. FRIPP AND FRIENDS STILL SERIOUSLY FLOATING

Even if we only like one sublime song by them, In The Court Of The Crimson
King, already quite old, it's deeply reassuring to know that Robert Fripp
and his pals did not hang up, that they are still around (even on stage at
the Olympia June 25). And that they still deliver the same music more or
less. For nostalgics of the 70's.

Did we really need to read this? The perfect illustration of why Europe is
"Hell on earth" for Fripp and co.

On another point, there was a program on plastic surgery late last night on
the french third channel, and the background music was parts of Book of
Saturday, Exiles, LTIAI and LTIAII (among other unidentified things). Quite
unexpected.

And just one more thing. There is a very heated debate here about the
horrible Fripp leaving the stage as soon as he is flashed. But as far as I
can remember from the diaries, on the whole European tour, this only
happened ONCE (in Italy). And there were many more flashes than that. The
usual response being not playing FraKctured, but NOT leaving the stage!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this professionalism? Is there something
written on the ticket or something mentioning they HAVE to play FraKctured,
or anything else? So all those complaining are in fact complaining about
their own expectations!! Without tour diaries, you wouldn't even know and
everybody would be happy! SO PLEASE LIGHTEN UP and enjoy!

___
Laurent Masse                                  masse at geocean dot u-bordeaux dot fr
___

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:23:12 +0100
From: Peter Clinch <p dot j dot clinch at dundee dot ac dot uk>
Subject: ancient & modern (was Re: Bozzio Levin)

In ET 717, Timothy W Cox suggested:

> J.S.Bach sounds as modern today as he did in the 1700's and his
> interlocking patterns predate Fripps by a long shot

Actually, Bach was considered a bit old-fashioned by his peers, and
rather living in the past while they were getting into exciting new
trends!

It just goes to show that it's actually very difficult to evaluate the
true worth of something in the here and now.  But for playing stuff
live, the new stuff is new to the extent we don't really know where it's
going yet, and only by airing it can we really find out.  And of course
one limits this exploration if half the set list is devoted to stuff
that's 15+ years old.

> I recently told a fellow employee (a jazzer) about Fripps
> policy of playing older material, his response, "that's ridiculous, your
> alienating an entire generation of youth from experiencing music"

Does this chap go to Keith Jarrett solo piano concerts and shout "Koln
Concert!" between the passages?  It depends very much on the artist
whether one should expect new or old or both.  I like listening to old
stuff at concerts, but I think I can appreciate why some people don't
want to play standards again and again.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch			University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637	Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177		Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p dot j dot clinch at dundee dot ac dot uk	http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:12:35 +0100
From: Sandy Starr <s dot starr at cScape dot com>
Subject: Defending Adrian Belew, and differences of opinion on Yes

In ET #718, Les quoted the following review of TCOL from a French issue of
Playboy:
>>Meme si on n'aime d'eux qu'un seul sublime morceau, In The Court Of The
Crimson King, qui date deja, ca fait un bien fou de saviour que Robert Fripp
et ses copains n'ont pas raccroche', qu'ils sont toujours la(et meme sur
scen, al'Olympia le 25 jun).  Et qu'ils font toujours a peu pres la meme
musique.  Pour nostalgiques des 70's.<<

My rough translation of this (forgive me, my French isn't too good) is:
'Even if you only like one sublime song, In The Court of the Crimson King,
which is already fairly old, it's nonetheless good to know that Robert Fripp
and his colleagues haven't thrown in the towel, that they're still around
(and even playing live, at the Paris Olympia on 25 June). And that they're
still making more or less the same music. For 70s nostalgists.'

Accepting that my translation isn't perfect, I think this review is evidence
that the reviewer did not listen to TCOL at all. He wrote from his
assumptions, as so many music critics do. They may have heard TCOL. But they
certainly didn't listen to it.

In the same issue, Aaron P Deglanville writes:
>>I am in the thick of the crowd of those who thrill to the very idea of
getting rid of Belew, despite my very high opinion of TCoL.  KC has long
stood for diversity and groundbreaking music, and I'm inclined to agree with
those who suspect that removing AB would usher in a great new era.<<

Okay, I'm sure I'm not the only person who's going to write in saying this,
but LAY OFF BELEW! This man has made and continues to make so much wonderful
music, performs with such enthusiasm and skill, and contributes so much to
the ongoing evolution of Crim, that these kinds of derogatory remarks are
surely unfair.

Not only that, but in my opinion AB's lyrics (which come in for a lot of
flak on ET) are great, and appropriate to KC's music. Hey, just because Pete
Sinfield thinks lyrics should be dense and descriptive doesn't mean that's
the only way to do it. This is MUSIC, not literature - it works well with
word play, abstraction and onomatopoeia.

In his two decades of Crimsoning, the _only_ contribution of AB to KC that I
wholeheartedly dislike is the lyrics to 'I Have a Dream'. And to be honest,
that's an insignificant niggle when you think of all the great stuff. No,
I'm not a 'Save the Belew' charity, I just happen to think that AB makes a
great contribution to Crimson. And although I would welcome any new line-up
of KC with open and unbiased ears (as I did when Bruford and Levin dropped
out), I still hope that Belew's music, lyrics, guitar and vocals have a
place in any future incarnation of the band.

Why do some ETers spend so much time trying to seperate out the contribution
of band members to KC music? It's strange, it's like eating a cake and then
instead of enjoying it trying to work out what aspect of the flavour the
flour is responsible for, and what aspect of the flavour the butter is
responsible for. When a band makes an album, they bake us a cake.
Collaboration, whether on writing music or on performing music, is a magical
thing. It should be celebrated, not taken apart.

Also in ET #718, Tony Grieg writes a response to recent posts by myself and
Markus Gnad on the band Yes, a response which I would like to respond to in
turn. Toby, I know this isn't a Yes mailing list (or an Einsturzende
Neubauten mailing list, or a Mr Bungle mailing list). So just stop us as
soon as you think there's too much Yes in ET.

[ OK! That's it. No more after this post! -- Toby ]

Tony writes:
>>Tormato is a disappointing album in some sections, but far from their
lowest point!<<

Fair point, there is some good stuff on the album.

>>Drama is an excellent album even though Anderson was not present, with new
members Horn and Downes and Howe, Squire and White's superb playing and
arrangements temporarily staying the demise of the band (briefly).<<

I absolutely agree.

>>A reason as to why this album (90125) is so good, could be the fact that
the band was enjoying fresh ideas in this linup and 'certain' musicians had
not tasted the huge commercial success that followed, and we all know how
the trappings of stardom can affect individuals ego's etc! This could be the
reason that the abysmal 'Big Generator' debacle in '87 was so poor an album.
Too many ideas (and commercial success?) and lack of direction from 'one'
new member who assumes control. Anderson was not allowed to come to the fore
etc, and you guessed it, lack of melody etc, and the spirit of Yes dies
quickly!<<

Sorry Tony, I gotta disagree. I like Big Generator just as much as I like
90125. It's got fantastic, bassy sounding tunes (title track and Rhythm of
Love) and a great Yes version of a tune Trevor Rabin wrote for somebody else
(Love Will Find A Way). Also, Anderson is even more integrated into the band
than he was on 90125.

>>Regarding the ABW&H rave, The name Yes may have stayed with Squire and
company (it wasn't much use to them though), but we all know how succesful
the ABW&H album and tour were! This band captured what we know as Yes magic
and sort of left the other 'Yes' in limbo, so to speak! That can also be
heard on the following Union 'collaboration', as there are only four (4)
songs from the redundant Yes 'name' linup and eleven (11) songs from ABW&H.
It would appear that Squire and company were a little lost without Anderson.
I must say that it would appear that Jon Anderson is the main instigator of
most of Yes's classic material (with able support from either Steve Howe or
Chris Squire).<<

Gotta disagree again. I think the ABWH and Evening of Yes Music Plus albums
are alright, but I also happen to think that the four Squire & co. tracks on
Union are the best ones on the album! And of those four, 'The More We Live -
Let Go' is in my opinion one of the greatest Yes tunes of all time. Correct
me if I'm wrong, but Squire and co. had actually written an album's worth of
material before the Union project, it's just that only four tracks were used
on Union.

I don't think that Anderson is the 'instigator' of classic Yes material, nor
do I think that RF is the 'instigator' of classic KC material. The process
is collaborative before all else, and as I say above, trying to divvy up the
influence of band members is a bit of a fool's errand. When I eat a cake I
taste an integrated cake, not an aggregate of cake ingredients.

------------------------------

End of Elephant Talk Digest #719
********************************