Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #718 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 718 Wednesday, 26 July 2000 Today's Topics: French buyers: Great Deceiver au bonne prix Howard Stern's version of ITCOTCK TCOL In French Playboy King Crimson vocalists Re: Fripp's "3 piece KC" comment. 3 piece KC Re: 3-piece KC Re: 3-piece KC Re: New Tour, Old Material out-bjorked? self promotion and a call for abuse Three easy pieces? The (probably redundant) opening act debate and the six degrees of Bungular more TCoL (and a few words on Fripp) LTIA II Re: Yes talk my dream KC lineup is: the KKK 3-piece KC ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 19:48:15 +0200 From: Sidney Wiener Subject: French buyers: Great Deceiver au bonne prix J Gibert now has the Great Deceiver box set (DGM version) for 352 Francs (50 dollars at current rate). Get it before they realise that they actually offered a good deal for a new release! Sid ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 16:09:24 -0400 (CLT) From: "Miguel Farah F." Subject: Howard Stern's version of ITCOTCK Hi all. Jon Benfield mailed me the MP3 with Howard Stern's version of _In the Court of the Crimson King_, and I put it up in my web site. That way you can grab it for yourselves instead of having to ask for it via e-mail. The URL is http://www.webhost.cl/~miguel/KC/LOSERS.mp3 -- MIGUEL FARAH // miguel at webhost dot cl #include // http://www.webhost.cl/~miguel <*> "Trust me - I know what I'm doing." - Sledge Hammer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 21:36:52 -0400 From: leslabb at ptd dot net Subject: TCOL In French Playboy Went to the new Borders book store here in Harrisburg, PA. Spent lots of money on some cool music and magazines. The CDs I was able to find were Liquid Tension Experiment I & II, Dick's Picks' vol 12, and a new one by Ozric Tentacles titled "Swirly Terminations". It is actually a collection of alternative jams from previous cds. The liner notes are very sparse, so I can't even tell if it is a collection of live jams. But worth it just the same. I also picked up "Bible Of Dreams" by Juno Reactor, way cool. I also picked up some cool music mags, the French version of Playboy, and one titled Oriental Cinema. The OC mag covered Japense SCI-FI/Monster flicks, but on the last few pages had hot asian chicks. ThePlayboy had a review of the new KC CD, but it was in French, so here it goes if someone can translate: CA PLANE TOUJOURS FURIEUSEMENT POUR MR. FRIPP ET SES CAMARADES Meme si on n'aime d'eux qu'un seul sublime morceau, In The Court Of The Crimson King, qui date deja, ca fait un bien fou de saviour que Robert Fripp et ses copains n'ont pas raccroche', qu'ils sont toujours la(et meme sur scen, al'Olympia le 25 jun). Et qu'ils font toujours a peu pres la meme musique. Pour nostalgiques des 70's. I did have French in 3rd grade, but learned very little. What I can make out is the announcement of the 06/25/00 gig. The ending also sounds like the reviewer says the disc is for Nostagics of the 70's. The reviewer did give the disc a 3 out of 4 bunny review :) Les ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:19:33 +0000 From: Jeremy Robinson Subject: King Crimson vocalists Re. the recent thread in 'Elephant Talk' about female vocalists for King Crimson, I think Bjrk or P.J. Harvey would be stunning. They've both got the wildness, the edge, the potential for mania and intensity which would suit the old Crims down to the ground. They're also both highly intelligent, educated singers and performers, with mesmerizing stage personas. And both have the required musical background - not only in rock/ pop, but also in jazz, and 'experimental' music. Harvey in particular has produced some stunning swamp blues, real dark, nervy stuff, which would suit Crim outings like 'Prozac Blues', 'Frying Pan' and 'Oyster Soup. Harvey can also whack a guitar about like a good 'un. So, no strangers to strangeness, Bjrk or Polly Jean, and both well up to the high standards of Crimsonoid music. (Plus, P.J. Harvey's from darkest West Country, very near Frippland). It'd be a great step for Crimson to take, having a female vocalist. And surprising, too, perhaps, as prog rock (and art rock, or avant garde music or whatever you want to call it) is generally very masculinist, very much boys' music (no offense meant here - this is a statement of fact: consider the subscribers to ET, the fans at KC or prog concerts, the people who buy KC or prog rock, and the people who make it). Jeremy Robinson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:47:11 -0400 From: Kathryn Ottersten Subject: Re: Fripp's "3 piece KC" comment. Hi Crimpeoples, I read NotoriousAWOL's comment in ET 717 with great curiosity. He wrote: > Adrian quit or was asked to leave the band. That's my vibe! > I am not sure that I understand how Fripp's diary entry of July 11 is taken to mean that Ade is the (contemplated/threatened) absent member. When I read Fripp's diary, I took it that Fripp was quoting his own reply email stating that he would not play a large gig without doing warm up shows first, which would fit into his established pattern. Given that Ade, in the Launch.com interview, said "give me a quartet, any quartet, and as long as it's got Robert and me in it, I'll be happy," it does not seem that he would quit the band. NotoriousAWOL also wrote: > If you review AD's rendition of the way he came late to the TCOL proceedings he > seemed like a fifth wheel "adding "things to music that was already there. > This is refuted also by Ade's statement in the same interview. He talks about working on part of the album before he, RF and TG went out as P2, and also how well he felt the later sessions in Nashville went with the quartet. I have not seen any indication that he came late to the TCOL proceedings [is this from another interview? Where?], which would be hard considering that it was recorded in his home studio. The only way he can be considered to have come late is if one thinks that most of TCOL developed out of P3 & P4, but that does not seem to be the case (also consider that these Projekcts were much shorter lived than P2, which toured for 2 months, while P3 & P4 only existed for a couple of weeks each). I am of the opinion that reports of Ade's departure are premature (to paraphrase W.C. Fields). Kathy O. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:22:38 -0400 From: "rs" Subject: 3 piece KC my take on the quote is that it was going to be without FRIPP!!!(not Belew) >>>Very quick response to be followed: since I said the Milwaukee show was too large, I'm assuming this is the debut show for the 3 piece KC? Let me be clear, we WILL do a club date. This is necessary for the quality of the group's performance after a period away from live shows. I really hope that my patience & will are not tried on this, because my patience is low right now & my determination is engaged". <<< I think Fripp is making a stand, his way or no way. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:56:37 -0500 From: "LaRose, Phil" Subject: Re: 3-piece KC Some people just aren't reading Fripp's comment correctly. He meant since he was unwilling to do a show in a large venue, the promoter's insistence would mean he would bow out. The 3-piece KC would be Fripp-less. You folks wishing for a "new" Crimson future might live to regret it... phil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:43:12 -0500 From: "Grant Colburn" Subject: Re: 3-piece KC Notorious wrote: >Yep! I saw that Fripp diary "3-piece KC" entry too! Exciting, isn't it? >With respect to Adrian and his fans, the perceived imbalance in the band is how >his things are grafted on to the other three's more involved, cohesive work. I'd buy that a bit when considering the monumental pieces Lark's 4 and FraKctured. I think those 2 were definitely pretty worked out by Fripp with Gunn and Mastelotto. But really as far as I remember reading Prozac was pretty much a Belew song as well as the song parts of Frying Pan (even though the cross chromatic idea I think came from a ProjeKct jam). Oyster sounds like a band jam that Belew pounded into a song of sorts and of course the Lark's coda was from Adrian too. As for the song TCOL, it sounds to me like its been around for a couple of years already, (supposedly its what they played first at a rehearsal before Fripp said the immortal "What are those things?" in regard to the V-drums) And even there for better or worse Adrian's influence is certainly felt. He's the one who HAD V-drums in the first place! > Then there were the Fripp diary entries about TG and PM wanting to play as many >times as possible while in England but AB seeing not much point. My guess is rather than Adrian not wanting to play England more, that he knew his friend Robert did not want to play in England more. >Divisive. Now post- "3-pieceKC" diary entries mention how the future beckons >mysteriously . To us, maybe, but not to Fripp. Adrian quit or was asked to leave the >band. He quit on his own accord, and from what I understand mostly due to the time frame of when Fripp wanted to begin the recording more than some deep personality problems. PLUS! Didn't he actually quit only for about a total of 3 hours? >That's my vibe! Wow I'm thrilled! I like Adrian but I >think the time has come. Hmmm, my vibe was totally different. My guess was that Fripp is the one who was considering not playing, NOT Belew. So far I've heard no complaints from Adrian about the European tour, its Fripp who painted the "Hell on earth" picture. My feeling was that he (Fripp) was the one considering not to play under the present circumstances.... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:37:39 -0500 From: "Grant Colburn" Subject: Re: New Tour, Old Material Aaron wrote: >Citing Alexis' list of possible reasons for why Crim might commit an art crime: >>1-Robert's taste in music have changed. >Of course--and Robert's changes of taste have made KC one of the most >colorful bands in history. But do you really think he doesn't still love >all his babies? Yes, I totally believe he does NOT love all his babies. Plus unlike children musical pieces don't grow up. I think by making Fripp play all his babies you also don't let Fripp grow up. > And even if "sick of playing them", these old songs have >unlimited potential for reworking to suit the current lineup and tastes. Technically of course this is true, especially if one considers that KC could certainly pick songs they are not sick of playing due to their not playing them for the last 20 years. Songs like Great Deciever, Catfood, even a jam on Sailor's Tale would be cool to hear. Unfortunately its often true that with a new group of guys it would take just about as long to work up old songs as write new songs so I don't see it happening too soon. >KC's catalogue is too vast and rich to justify wholesale neglect. Any KC >show would be better off (more diverse, exciting, and satisfying) with >multiple KC incarnations acknowledged. Yes, if nostalgia is your main concern. If Crimson were a brand new band touring on their first album people wouldn't have these feelings. Though the norm for bands from the 70's is to play all the old hits, its certainly not a law. As I've said before, if no one shows up for the gigs maybe KC will rethink their position. I for one don't think they'll have a problem selling tickets though. If anything it always sounds like they could play bigger rooms and sell even more tickets if they actually wanted to. >Otherwise, guys, just change the name of the band to "Discipline" or something. >The King is dead--long live the King. Why be so influenced by dogmatic beliefs though? Sure, the norm is an old band plays old songs, but if they decide not to, yet still sell out their tour then just deal with it. We as KC fans seem to deal with our favorite band being primarily one guy with whoever he decides to play with, so here's just one more thing to deal with when dealing with the enigmatic King Crimson. The King Lives, long live the King! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 22:46:27 -0400 From: Edward Banatt Subject: out-bjorked? >Ever considered that, although musically prolific and original, Bjork is not >an instrumentalist - let alone a bright one? > >Apart from not being able to contribute in that aspect, what on earth would >she be planning to do during a typical King Crimson set for 90% of the time? >(Don't tell me "scatting"...) If you plan on bashing Bjork on this list, get the facts straight. ;) She plays flute and keyboards. .....Are you saying KC could not have a "vocals only" singer? Sooo a singer can't be a musician? Whoops. Eddie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 22:06:49 -0400 From: Jason Nickey Subject: self promotion and a call for abuse Everyone, Check out my review of TCOL on www.allmusic.com. (and if your really want to be turned on to some truely progressive music, read my bio of the Danielson Famly and be enlightened) rock on, JN ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 02:23:10 -0500 From: Steve Smith Subject: Three easy pieces? > From: NotoriousAWOL at aol dot com > Subject: 3-piece KC! > > Yep! I saw that Fripp diary "3-piece KC" entry too! Exciting, isn't it? Don't get too excited, because I believe you're reading Fripp's post incorrectly. Think about it. If it's *Fripp* who's pissed about the promoter wanting to put the kibosh on a club gig warmup prior to U.S. Crimson activity, then what in the world makes you think he'd jettison Adrian? Puh-lease. If that's your wish due to an anti-Adrian bias, then so be it. But my own take on said post is that Fripp has told a promoter that if a gig won't happen in the way Fripp wants it to happen, then a three-piece Crimson will show up: Belew-Gunn-Mastellotto... sans Fripp, who evidently no longer has any use for any gigs that don't go down the way he wants them to (and to that I can only say "rah! rah!"). Is Fripp truly mercenary enough to follow through on his threat? Hard to say, even after all of the stage exits prompted by flashbulbs. But it will be interesting to see what ultimately happens. Steve Smith ssmith36 at sprynet dot com NP - Michael Hedges, "All Along the Watchtower," 'The Best of Michael Hedges' (Windham Hill) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 15:51:44 +0800 From: Brady Drums Subject: The (probably redundant) opening act debate and the six degrees of Bungular seperation Hello there ETers and purveyors of things Crimson There's only one act I can imagine opening for KC. Neil Hamburger Seriously, can anyone imagine this guy in front of a Krim crowd? Could make for a great BTV moment. Cheers Shane Brady ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 03:22:29 -0500 From: "Aaron P Deglanville" <"aaron_deglanville"@uhc.com> Subject: more TCoL (and a few words on Fripp) Ken B, pressing buttons: >And why don't negative first impressions count, only positive ones? An >impression is an impression. Mine upon first hearing the CD, was >disappointment! All opinions count, but not all opinions are created equal. TCoL is not a "bad" record any more than Britney Spears would make an excellent choice of vocalist for the next KC release. Well, unless she did the tour naked. >I also find it ridiculous to say that while people's first impressions that >this is a bad CD aren't valid, that saying this is one of the best (if the >best) KC record ever is valid. >How without years of wear and tear can that >be decided? Doesn't the CD need the test of time to see if it truly is the >best KC record ever? See first sentence, last paragraph. All our opinions count for *something*. And I would certainly agree that opinions that are unequivocally asserted--especially in great haste--are often suspect. Odd, above you're actually arguing that *positive* first impressions "don't count"--isn't that just your first criticism in a funhouse mirror? >How is this a new direction for KC? Sorry I don't hear it. Go back and >listen to ITCOTKC, LTIA and Discipline. Those records were all very >different from each other. Truly new directions. True. But don't forget that Belew-era KC is not the only incarnation guilty of coughing up blatantly derivative material. Witness ItWoP, which was essentially a paler shade of "Crimson King" with a mind-numbing Mellotron solo tacked on (hee hee, send hate mail to above address). > I don't find the new >record a new direction. In fact I find parts very derivative. I do find it >a better and newer sounding record then Thrak, but still not a new >direction. When I hear the song TCOL I hear 80s Crim, when I hear >FraKctured I hear Fracture and when I heat LTIA IV I hear the other LTIA. >So how can it be a new sound? Is it the hardest hitting Crim record yet, >yeah, but so what, it doesn't mean it's new! >...if Fripp really wants a new direction he has to get rid of Belew. Am I the only person who hears "Red" during LTiA IV? On balance, I agree: this is not a radically different direction for the band. I am in the thick of the crowd of those who thrill to the very idea of getting rid of Belew, despite my very high opinion of TCoL. KC has long stood for diversity and groundbreaking music, and I'm inclined to agree with those who suspect that removing AB would usher in a great new era. That said, I don't think TCoL has a single bum track--your comparisons of FraKctured and LTiA IV to their predecessors is too facile. And yes, we do hear plenty of the Disciplinary interlocks, but I still find the new arrangements fascinating, and their song-contexts strong. >The 'piano' solo on Oyster Soup ...rips. Why should a guitar *always* have to sound like a guitar? >Now my biggest gripe, this notion that ones needs to listen to something >multiple times before getting it. And its corollary of how many people seem >not to like Crim records the first time. I find both of these very strange. >...I don't need to seem 'special'. With "Look what I can listen >to, but it's difficult music, you need several listen to 'get it' >"attitude. But you concede earlier that opinion invariably changes over time--even claiming that a genuine appraisal of the disc *requires* a long trial (your words again, below): >How without years of wear and tear can that >be decided? I personally was crazy about most of the Crimson I personally own on first listen, with my appreciation simply deepening with closer listens. That makes the point: there are, in a sense, often "secrets" locked within the products of artistic genius. Appreciation grows, in part, because we come to know the art/ist better than we once did. For some, this may mean not loving the music at first, but having it slowly grow on them. This is a pretty common phenomenon, especially with music that challenges expectation and convention. I'd be interested to hear what your first impression was of Mr Bungle (if you've heard them). >Finally, it beyond my wildest imagination that anyone can condone Fripp's >behavior to his audience! I have to admit, reading in the archives Fripp's bombastic, defensive explanations for his rudeness to concertgoers surprised and saddened me (though I realize that he was occasionally responding to rude and insulting letters). He often comes off as haughty and narcississtic, with a palpable attitude of superiority over his fans. But he would be right in reminding me of my own responsibility in the expectations I impose upon my "Heroes". Expecting an Enlightened Being is not fair--and all too common. Fripp is a musical genius, but human, and being in the public eye, he is an easier target for critical stones than most of us. And I hope to god that if he actually reads this, he will see me as deeply appreciative of his work, and aware of him as a complex, mutidimensional human rather than simply a one-sided "prat". I forget who wrote it, but it was beautifully put--something about how we the audience are not the purpose of what Fripp does, but only the witnesses of it. Yes, we are damned privileged to even *experience* KC--perhaps spoiled rotten. Love to all, aa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 04:26:14 EDT From: Signify71 at aol dot com Subject: LTIA II Hello-- Would someone kindly point me (via email, please) to where I can obtain tabs for "Lark's Tongues in Aspic Part II"? Specifically, both bass and guitar tabs. I can read tab well, but have some problems sight reading and nailing the correct chord voicings, so the easier to comprehend the better. [ Look on ETWeb, of course: www.elephant-talk.com -- Toby ] Also, to respond to a few comments in recent ETs: 1. Yes please, let's get a FZ digest going, a quality one. 2. I have Schizoid Dimension (the tribute CD) and I have listened to it all of once. I prefer the real deal as opposed to these (sometimes good, other times horrid) covers; don't go out of your way for it, but if you score a used copy or something, at least listen to it first. I don't really trust tribute albums anymore, so... Chris ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 18:24:49 +1000 From: " Tony Greig" Subject: Re: Yes talk Fellow Crimophiles and more to the point, Yes freaks! Sorry Toby, this rave is more Yes than Crim. In Et 715, Sandy Starr writes, Subject: my dream KC lineup is: I GOTTA say it, I'm brand new. And maybe it'll sneak through: Robert Fripp: guitar John Wetton: lead vocal, bass Trey Anastasio: guitar, vocals Page McConnell: keys, vocals Bill Bruford: drums/Brufordosity Three-part harmonies and keys. Dig it. And fully capable of playing anything in the KC catalogue. aa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 03:44:53 -0500 From: "Aaron P Deglanville" <"aaron_deglanville"@uhc.com> Subject: the KKK Has anyone else noticed that the song titles on TCoL have a total of 3 misplaced capital "K"s (KKK) ? Not that I really think that it was deliberate, but it is kind of an odd oversight for such a smart group o' guys to make. aa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:17:14 +0200 From: masse at geocean dot u-bordeaux dot fr (Laurent MASSE) Subject: 3-piece KC I responded privately to the first message but after NotoriousAWOL post I think I have to send my opinion. I may be mistaken, but I am quite sure that, when speaking of the 3-piece KC, RF refers to him leaving the stage to AB, PM and TG on their own whenever he feels the venue/conditions/whatever of a particular concert do not meet his requirements. ___ Laurent Masse masse at geocean dot u-bordeaux dot fr ___ ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #718 ********************************