Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #717 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 717 Tuesday, 25 July 2000 Today's Topics: TCoL KC/Bjork I can see it coming! Re: Bozzio Levins Re: Outyouthed Schizoid Dimension and Palmer-James TCOL: my views Prog Description / Richard & Pete 3-piece KC! Prog Rock Definition Powerful Bruford. Uh-oh out-bjorked? Re: Mr. Bungle (and Bjork) TCOL pro and con new tour, old material radio sighting Unknown Levin-Bozzio project Lyrics of "I have a dream" pictures Re: Einsturzende Neubauten postings TCOL/MULTIPLE LISTENS AND OTHER THINGS ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:41:49 -0500 From: Matt Richardson Subject: TCoL Here is just another critique of the new Crimo disc. I had not followed the projects much or even read much ET in the last 3 years or so, but I must say that TCoL quickly grew on me. Positive aspects: 1. RF has not shredded like this on a Crimso release in almost 25 years. 2. Adrians new songs fit very well into the context of the disc and represent a fresh approach to KC songs. 3. All the instramentals are very well construkted and I get the sense that the music on Thrak was not as well developed. Complaints: 1. V-drums are cool except when it come's to snare rolls, there is no substitute for a real snare drum. 2. There is the obvious draw from older material. LTiAIV and Frakture are great compositions, but not an extrememly radical change from the past. Compare the song Red to Indisicpline or Fracture to Discipline, now that is a radical difference. Overall I think this is a good disc that embraces the past as KC prepares to take another bold step into the future and hopefully it won't be 5 more years before we see another release. TCoL represents a new direction for KC and as long as we don't see LTiA Part 5 or FraKKtured on the next disc we will know for sure that the true spirit of KC has not left. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 20:35:54 EDT From: SonicMarc at aol dot com Subject: KC/Bjork ET-ers, I found it so strange that someone mentioned Bjork as a possible vocalist for KC. I've been a Bjork fan since her Debut CD. Its good to see many KC fans are also fans of Bjork too. I think that KC and Bjork are both leaders in forward-thinking musicians. Don't dis Bjork; not only is she a superior musician, she can probably kick your ass as well. Marc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 19:34:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Alfred Bello Subject: I can see it coming! Yes it is me again... I can see it coming! eBay: All 30 something King Crimson European Tour 2000 tour concerts on 30 something CD's (unplayed) for US $ XXXX.XX. Are we ET'ers going to allow this to happen? Bullshit! Alf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 23:11:17 -0400 From: "Timothy W Cox" Subject: Re: Bozzio Levins Gnad Markus Wrote: >This led to a discussion with a friend. He told me that he had once seen a > CD (early 90's) of an unknown band featuring Levin and Bozzio. One album, > with a dark cover, very hard heavy metal he said. It has disappeared. > Anyone knows? Are you referring to the 1997 release from Bozzio/Levin/Stevens titled "Black Light Syndrome"? If so I highly recommend it and it is still floating around stores. Much of Bozzios material is available by mail order through his website. On a similar note, what are some of the readers opinions of Levin's newest solo album after listening to it for a while? For myself it comes across as modern classical/elevator light. Not real exciting, but there are some moments. Does anyone agree that his cello talents would be a very powerful addition to Crimson should he ever return? And I mean the real cello, not processed shite that can be reproduced on any Casio keyboard and heard at any techno joint much like the vdrums (I expect some bruising for that comment). Lastly it would seem that some ET posters are having some ear problems. It is ridiculous to label some ET members as nostalgic because they wish to hear older material or a similar style. Good music is relevant in any period. J.S.Bach sounds as modern today as he did in the 1700's and his interlocking patterns predate Fripps by a long shot. Likewise, it is wrong for the older crowd to look at the wee ones with dismay towards their appreciation of the newer material. Indeed, progression is good, but I must question those who admire change for the sole reason of hearing something different. Evolution occurs by accident or when it is needed but never successfully upon request. I believe the CGT handle the situation best by approaching music without regard to period. They play music which was and will be enjoyed. I recently told a fellow employee (a jazzer) about Fripps policy of playing older material, his response, "that's ridiculous, your alienating an entire generation of youth from experiencing music" Nuff said. (and no I'm not an old fart and do enjoy many aspects of TCOL) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 21:47:36 -0400 From: Manuel Fernandez Subject: Re: Outyouthed Gnad Markus wrote: > >BTW Just thinking... Manuel, your family has been assaulted by two armed >men? And the only impact they had on you was that they stole your prog >stuff??? Well, I suppose you told them: "Oh please not my Sheik Yerbouti, >oh no, take the TV set instead..." Just kidding! - I hope nothing serious >had happened! Thanks. We got out of it pretty cheap, except for the nighmarish feeling of having guns pointed at your family. After the massive fright, you're actually thankful that no further brutality, profanity or other violence was inflicted; that's all that matters. Funny how our cherished Crimson records lose all value in this context, especially when they can -eventually- be replaced. But when I saw them eyeing the record collection and then grabbing stuff with relative selectivity I though "they're leaving the weird stuff". Imagine my surprise, much later, when I saw which ones were missing! Of course I was enraged, but now I'm quite amazed. At least this proves that prog- rockers are the most civil burglars. :-) What the heck, I have TCOL to crimsonize for now; and Zappa's "Freak Out" was in the player so it got away. That was his first record, maybe it's a sign of renewal; as if meaning "you can start again from here". Hmmm.... If so, what would it mean Crim wise? "Take it from here, forget the past?" Creepy... very Crim-like. But NAAAAAAAHH! I don't have that kind of discipline... ;-) Take care.-- Manuel Fernandez O. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 04:57:40 EDT From: MDENACI at aol dot com Subject: Schizoid Dimension and Palmer-James Hi, fellow ETers! I'm a relatively new subscriber to this newsletter (and a hearty THANKS goes to all involved in keeping it going). I just wanted to respond to a couple of recent posts: Sandy Starr asked (in ET#715) for some opinions on the Schizoid Dimension tribute CD. I've had it for a couple of years now, and definitely would recommend it, unless you are primarily interested in Belew-era KC (since there is only one track representing the 80s). Although, as with most tribute CDs, there are a couple of less-than-inspired performances, I was nonetheless surprised by the quality and inventiveness of the majority of the tracks. IMHO, the space/goth version of Cirkus is a real standout, as are a loopy, high-tech sounding I Talk to the Wind and a marvelous Sailor's Tale. The biggest treat for fans of the '73-'74 period is Exiles, performed by the David Cross band and featuring a new vocal by John Wetton! It sounds very different from the original, with a distinct jazz-fusion feel; Wetton's vocals are unusually raw, but still quite expressive. The Talking Drum also gets a more contemporary-sounding reinterpretation, but a Brand X version of Red sounds very lackluster to me. Overall, it was much more interesting than I'd expected. In the same issue, Matthew K. Smith asked about Richard Palmer-James. Matthew, you might be interested in a recently-released CD called Monkey Business: 1972-1997, by John Wetton and Richard Palmer-James.. The liner notes explain that the two met in school in 1962 and played together in various bands throughout the '60s before they got a chance to work together again in KC. The CD contains some fascinating demos of JW singing various KC melodies without words (just "dooh-doot-doohs"), which R P-J then used as a basis for writing his lyrics. The CD also contains some unused KC song ideas, as well as material on which the two colloborated throughout the seventies and even some brand new songs. IMO, the previously-unreleased The Good Ship Enterprise alone is worth the price of the CD ; unfortunately, a new version of Starless makes me wince. Still, the CD is a real must for fans of Wetton and that period of Crimson history. (Apparently, R P-J currently makes his living writing pop songs for the European market (!) ). --Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 10:59:47 GMT From: "mike mclaughlin" Subject: TCOL: my views Being a more recent initiate into the world of Crimson music (although I have got all the albums) I was looking forward to a new Crimson release (as I'm sure many do). When it came it took me by surprise, (I only heard of it's existence the day before it came out on general release) I listened to Prozakc Blues over the net (I think it was probably on DGM) and was impressed (and a little bemused by the vocals). The next day I went out to buy the album, I took it home put it on my CD player cranked up the volume and began listening, it is as many have said heavy and intense with little let up, but it is also incredibly good, interesting listening (I am not of the opinion that they sounded even slightly unsure). I had reservations myself at first but I listened with an ever increasing sense of awe, as the album progressed (I think it was somewhere between Frying Pan and Oyster Soup) a certain familiarity flicked through my head but I ignored it and listened on in earnest. Larks Tongues In Aspic Part IV is perhaps the most incredible piece of music I've heard in years the raw power alone made me tremble with excitement. Then came the Project X piece Heaven & Earth this is where the light and shade is most balanced after the full intensity of the album the last piece has all the right things for a Crimsong in all the right proportions. Now as yet I have not heard the Project X album (as it's only available through Discipline) but I will definitely buy it on the strength of the evidence on TCOL. I'd also like to add to this with hindisght and frequent revisiting of the album (also having seen the last gig on the european tour) the album only gets better with repeated listens and when played live it takes on a whole new lease of life. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 13:42:41 +0200 From: Gnad Markus Subject: Prog Description / Richard & Pete Hi freaks! A few responses to ET 715 & 716: Jeremy Robinson, within your description of Prog Rock bands you forgot one thing: The rise into more commercial territory throughout the 80's (as a band, or split up). Ex: ELP, Asia, Yes, Floyd, Genesis, Gabriel, Starship, Bowie, Collins and so on. Not to say that everyone of them did bad, but, yes, it's there. Mathew Smith: Richard W. Palmer-James is friend of Johnny Wetton since 1972. Get your hands on the album "Monkey Business 1972-1992", filed under John Wetton & Richard W. Palmer-James. It features collaborations of these artists from all times, ex: Red sessions, Starless sessions, 1977 sessions, 80's material, 90's live material AND THE 1997 LIVE VERSION OF STARLESS. Contributing among others is Mr Bill Bruford. Richard and Pete make their living of writing songs, I think. Examples: There is that German soundcreator Michael Cretu. His album Die Chinesische Mauer was subsequently released as English Version The Chinese Wall, with lyrics translated by Richard W. Palmer-James (mid-80's). Pete Sinfield wrote - as I think among others - for Celin Dion (God I hate her so much). And speaking of Pete: His album Still is still available as import CD on amazon.com. Folks, they have a lot of great albums there. Jan: I too was confused - but not of the bass on the piKcture, but on Tony Levin on a P2 Live Groove pic sitting on a table with Adrian eating chips. Thanks for you explaining. And finally after all that talk, I'll get my hands on Mr Bungle. Thanks again all you ETers for telling me how to invest right. Markus Isn't She Lovely? (Stevie Wonder, he means Britney Spears, hello Flo and Steve!) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 11:23:23 EDT From: NotoriousAWOL at aol dot com Subject: 3-piece KC! Yep! I saw that Fripp diary "3-piece KC" entry too! Exciting, isn't it? With respect to Adrian and his fans, the perceived imbalance in the band is how his things are grafted on to the other three's more involved, cohesive work. Take a look at recent history. The "I Have a Dream" controversy was revealing in more than one way. There was the disguised bewilderment (which I share) from AB about The "depressing" soft version being cut, while the crushing finale with the same lyrics was retained. Next, the rather roundabout way that the situation came to be. It was probably insulting to not have Fripp or the whole band just say they didn't like it. Virgin has various Eminem types selling millions but "I Have a Dream" is too depressing? Give me a break! If you review AD's rendition of the way he came late to the TCOL proceedings he seemed like a fifth wheel "adding "things to music that was already there. Not really part of the process, you know? Then there were the Fripp diary entries about TG and PM wanting to play as many times as possible while in England but AD seeing not much point. Divisive. Now post- "3-pieceKC" diary entries mention how the future beckons mysteriously . To us, maybe, but not to Fripp. Adrian quit or was asked to leave the band. That's my vibe! Wow I'm thrilled! I like Adrian but I think the time has come. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 09:48:07 -0600 From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QW5kculzIEfzbWV6?= Subject: Prog Rock Definition In my opinion "prog rock" is a musical mold that in the 70's implied a series of elements similar to those mentioned by Jeremy Robinson, yet such music cannot be assigned or limited to a lapse of time. Prog rock can and should be defined in musical terms, and if it has a series of linked aspects they are ever changing as society itself. On a personal level, I have played on prog rock band and I live in Costa Rica, which totally defies any social-economic condition associated with prog rock. Instead, it could be linked to a growing artistic-intellectual sector in society, which is sensitive to outstanding music; a group of people in search for better answers to simple questions musically and in life. Andres Gomez ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 12:01:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Alberto "Diaz" Subject: Powerful Bruford. Hi Posters! I was one among the lucky 150 / 200 people who were enjoying with the big Bill. As Ferran Nogues told us in is good review of the Jamboree's concert (17/07/00) everybody felt something special that night. A friend of mine who plays drums confessed me he was about to cry several times during the moving and impressive Bruford executions. After the concert I told my friends that I had enjoyed much more with Bruford, Coryel, Hamilton and Hodgson than with the recent Crimson concert at Zeleste (Barcelona). There was smoke in the air, there were flashes, but nothing really matters but Music. MUSIC in capital letters. Musicians who are betting their lives on music and not on money. Others are only concentrated in selling every single thing they produce without wondering if they are maintaining the quality target to where they once promised to point at. Before leaving the club I could even talk to Mr. William Bruford and after thanking him from the very bottom of my heart I told him that he had been that night the real Constructor of Light. He laughed, shook my hand and told me "thanks to you too and I'm glad you have enjoyed with the show". He gave us not only a master lesson of music but also a lesson of humbleness and modesty. The measure of a great man. Kindest regards to everybody at ET. P.S. I will always prefer "B"-drums in KC rather than the current V-drums. Alberto D. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 17:35:04 EDT From: NotoriousAWOL at aol dot com Subject: Uh-oh Hey! looking around the net for more "3-piece KC" talk, I put "King Crimson" in aol search and you know what came up in "related searches" ? "King Crimson break up"! Wow! wonder where that came from? I at once fear for the end and am looking forward to a new era. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 15:57:12 -0700 From: "Hoang Le" Subject: out-bjorked? Ever considered that, although musically prolific and original, Bjork is not an instrumentalist - let alone a bright one? Apart from not being able to contribute in that aspect, what on earth would she be planning to do during a typical King Crimson set for 90% of the time? (Don't tell me "scatting"...) Greetings Nic PS please allow me to pre-empt at least one possible reaction to the above: yes, neither was Boz Burrell - all other KC singers were heavier on the hardware than on the voice ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 11:55:08 -0400 From: JOE C CWIRKA Subject: Re: Mr. Bungle (and Bjork) "Here's a game for you: try to think of just one group bigger than us that would be good for us to tour with." By saying this, I don't think Trey of Mr. Bungle meant any offense to any other bands. I don't think he said it in way that meant they we too good to tour with bigger bands. Being an avid Mr. Bungle fan, I realize that though some of us really love the music and the challenge that comes with listening to it, not everyone feels the same way. When I'm driving around with 3 friends, putting Mr. Bungle into the CD player is one of the surefire to annoy all of them at once (another one being driving on the wrong side of the road). I agree with Trey, that if Mr. Bungle were to tour, they would have a hard time finding a big band to tour with that would benefit them. In all likelihood, most fans of the bigger band would not "get" Mr. Bungle, especially if they haven't heard of them before. And you KNOW how tough audiences can be on an opening act that they've never heard. Granted, they probably would work pretty well as a band on a King Crimson tour, due to the fact that the audience is traditionally more accepting of the challenge, but, again, I don't think he means that they are "more talented". I don't think Trey meant it as though Mr. Bungle are so much better then all the other bands they could possibly tour with, I think he meant that they are just to different from the possible touring partners. Anyway, that's just how I interpreted the quote, and having seen Mr. Bungle a number of times, I'm inclined to agree with him. -Dan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 13:28:10 -0500 From: "Aaron P Deglanville" <"aaron_deglanville"@uhc.com> Subject: TCOL pro and con I'm new to the list, and that's a hell of a long list of dead threads. Many of them sound utterly fascinating--I bet " dead threads" are really just a ploy to get newcomers to read the archives. ;) So before the TCoL debate gets killed, I want to offer 2 more cents: >It's amazing to me the number of people who continue to submit posts >complaining about TCOL, which is, IMHO, the best KC music at least since >Discipline. Amen. And I would be baffled if this weren't popular consensus. If TCoL is derivative, it's far less so than Thrak, and anyone who prefers "Beat" or "Pair" probably also thought Van Halen really started to rock once they got rid of that Lee Roth guy, so I'll consider the point moot. >I have arrived to the conclusion that most of the music is great, but the >performance in itself is not. There is a sort of fear behind it, like if >certain songs are a real challenge to play. That is what it is! And the >players knew this at the time, but were struggling to get it right. I am >positive that if KC would record TCOL today, after the tour, it would be as >amazing as LTIA, where you notice self confidence. I'm guessing you're not a musician. Not only is TCoL spidey-finger-tangling complex material, it is executed impeccably. You could hardly say the same for LTIA. Whatever it is you don't like about TCoL, you'll have to keep trying to put your finger on it. But as many have suggested, supposed "problems" with KC material often magically resolve themselves after repeated listening, like puzzles solved [on this note, can anyone advise: does "Pair" get very much better with repeated listening, or am I wasting my time?] I personally was blown away with TCoL on first listen--but this was a pretty damn close listen. I'm sure not everybody hung on every note during their first listen, and understandably so--demanding stuff. Disciplinesque, it offers the familiar cerebral, interlocking earteasers in unfamiliar and more ambitious contexts. "ProzaKc Blues" may be a little weak, and the "Red" shades in "LTiA part IV" are derivative enough to annoy me, but even these tracks are solid. While my strongest sympathies ultimately lie with those who favor Crim's mid-'70s work ("...and if John Wetton's a genius, what am I...?"), I easily rank TCoL above Poseidon, Islands, and the last 3 releases. Extending my deepest appreciation to Fripp and co, aa ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 14:35:35 -0500 From: "Aaron P Deglanville" <"aaron_deglanville"@uhc.com> Subject: new tour, old material The upcoming US tour will be my first, and I will definitely have the ProzaKc Blues if all the old material gets neglected wholesale. I didn't even consider this possibility until reading ET; now I'm scared. However good the "reasons" might be, it would still be a tragedy to me. Citing Alexis' list of possible reasons for why Crim might commit an art crime: >1-Robert's taste in music have changed. Of course--and Robert's changes of taste have made KC one of the most colorful bands in history. But do you really think he doesn't still love all his babies? And even if "sick of playing them", these old songs have unlimited potential for reworking to suit the current lineup and tastes. >2-Adrian may not feel confortable signing Sinfield or Palmer-James's lirics. > No, I wouldn't want to be signing about Lords and Kings, Fire >Wiches, Cavalery and The Almighty in 2000. I would feel pretty silly. He felt comfortable enough replacing the original vocals on "Cadence and Cascade". That, to me, would take elephant balls. And I really hope you're not suggesting that Belew is the best lyricist KC ever had. > 3-Most of the old stuff would really sound bad. I doubt many here would agree with *that* dubious sentiment. They can always rework songs for the new lineup. There's no limit to what could be done. >4-This would keep them from ProjekcXing so much. Another excellent reason to do it. =) No, but seriously, there's space for all of this at a full length show, no doubt about it. >5-Heros is the old classic this time around :>). If they can do "Heroes", they can bloody well do anything. What's the date on that antique? '77? KC's catalogue is too vast and rich to justify wholesale neglect. Any KC show would be better off (more diverse, exciting, and satisfying) with multiple KC incarnations acknowledged. Otherwise, guys, just change the name of the band to "Discipline" or something. The King is dead--long live the King. aa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 00:38:57 EDT From: Mikewyz at aol dot com Subject: radio sighting King Crimson on the radio recently: Friday night, around 10:15 pm, WPRB (princeton) played "One More Red Nightmare" followed by "Indoor Games." a few hours later (when I got back in the car), they played "Fracture" followed by "FracKtured". coulda been an all KC-show, but i wasn't listening continuously. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 18:57:11 +0400 From: "Iscander the Aquarius" Subject: Unknown Levin-Bozzio project > From: Gnad Markus > > The recent Artist Shop newsletter told about the coming record of > Bozzio/Levin/Stevens. > > This led to a discussion with a friend. He told me that he had once seen a > CD (early 90's) of an unknown band featuring Levin and Bozzio. One album, > with a dark cover, very hard heavy metal he said. It has disappeared. > > Anyone knows? I may be wrong,but that one could be Black Light Syndrome '96 -predecessor of Liquid Tension Experiment.I haven't heard it myself,but Bozzio definitely contributed to it, and as it's a Magna-Carta release-it should be heavy... ;))) Anyway,LTE is a must-have for all KC2K fans :D ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 14:52:40 +0200 From: Torsten Lasse Subject: Lyrics of "I have a dream" I've seen a "The Construction of Light" - Concert some weeks ago, and i have to say that it was one of my favourite KC-Concerts ever, but I have a question: The lyrics of the new album (CofL) are not very creative, I think as I heard these lyrics , especially "I have a dream", I knew that the band members are all about forty to sixty years.....;-). And these poor jokes with the "..kC.." in every second word... I think I'll get therefore many hate-mails... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 09:39:58 -0400 From: Joan Bull Subject: pictures From a May, 1997 Smithsonian article on the release of some condors into the wild. At the release ceremony: ... Robert Mesta, the USFWS coordinator for the program ... "This is not a performance," Mesta says. "It is a prayer to welcome a brother back. I ask that you take no pictures." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 10:24:59 -0500 From: Justin Kolodziej Subject: Re: Einsturzende Neubauten postings Count me in as another fan of both Einsturzende Neubauten and King Crimson. Latter-period Neubauten ranks as possibly the most beautiful music I've heard, while the early album "Drawings of Patient O.T." is among the most intense and frightening works I've ever heard. Unless you like THRaKaTTaK and/or Providence, I'd recommend choosing any of the albums Tabula Rasa, Ende Neu, or Silence is Sexy if you're new to them. If you do like the more avant-garde Crimson works, you might very well be interested in Drawings of Patient O.T. It is a great album, but is even more extreme than Crimson really gets. I haven't heard their middle-period albums (Habler Mensch, Five on the Open-Ended Richter Scale (not sure of the proper German name), or Haus Der Lege), but I imagine they aare somewhere between the early avant-garde and later tuneful quiet albums. Just to relate this to something a little more on-topic, their song NNNAAAMMM is in 9/4. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:59:03 -0400 From: "Brown, Ken" Subject: TCOL/MULTIPLE LISTENS AND OTHER THINGS OK so it's been years since I lasted post, but now I'm back and probably going to get feathers ruffled! Expressed within are questions, both rhetorical and not, and observations I must make about the new KC CD and the fans of. What is the big deal if someone doesn't like the new CD? Some seem to take it very personal! Its only a record after all, one of many that will come out in a year. While I like this record, I certainly don't find it the best record I have heard all year. And why don't negative first impressions count, only positive ones? An impression is an impression. Mine upon first hearing the CD, was disappointment! I thought it was a good record, but not an excellent record and not a new sound. The idea that KC can not release a bad record is just ridiculous, of course they can, they are human like the rest of us. Artists most times are the worst judges of their own material. I don't think any artist should produce themselves, it can lead to disaster. Not that I think this record is. I also find it ridiculous to say that while people's first impressions that this is a bad CD aren't valid, that saying this is one of the best (if the best) KC record ever is valid. How without years of wear and tear can that be decided? Doesn't the CD need the test of time to see if it truly is the best KC record ever? How is this a new direction for KC? Sorry I don't hear it. Go back and listen to ITCOTKC, LTIA and Discipline. Those records were all very different from each other. Truly new directions. I don't find the new record a new direction. In fact I find parts very derivative. I do find it a better and newer sounding record then Thrak, but still not a new direction. When I hear the song TCOL I hear 80s Crim, when I hear FraKctured I hear Fracture and when I heat LTIA IV I hear the other LTIA. So how can it be a new sound? Is it the hardest hitting Crim record yet, yeah, but so what, it doesn't mean it's new! Prozakac Blues is a gimmick song and as such will not wear well. I do think it might be the best of the AB songs on the CD. I find that his songs have lost something over time. I not sure what it is, but I don't find this batch of songs as good the stuff from the 80s. Oh the hearsay being spread here today! Well here is some more, if Fripp really wants a new direction he has to get rid of Belew. It's not that I dislike him, it just that he as a certain writing style, one he really can't change. I know lots of you AB people will point to this CD and that one saying the he can and does change his style. But does he really? Don't you always know its a Belew song? Again if Fripp wants a truly new direction that is what he must do. Now he may not want one and that is fine with me. I have come to terms with the fact that Crim may never change like the way it did in the past. They still are producing some great music, so the dino disease as not hit them yet. The negative criticisms and the V-drums. To me it seems a pretty even match between the nay-sayers and yea-sayers. In fact, many nay-sayers haven't totally hated the CD. The V-drums do seem to be a sore point with many. I have no problem with them, but I do have a question. Why does Pat try and make his Vdrums sound like a regular drum kit so much of the time? The 'piano' solo on Oyster Soup. It amazes how many positive comments have been made on this. I find it to be the worst solo on the record. Almost as bad as some of the stuff Fripp does on P2 record. It sounds to me like a guitarist trying to sound like a piano! So Fripp can make any sound with his synths so what, do we really need to hear them? What about KC playing oldies? Well I for one am glad they are not. But my question is what band have you people been following all these years? Songs from previous KC are rarely played by the new band. Sure KC70 did 21CSM, and KC80s did RED and LTIA, but that seemed to be it on a regular basis. Now KC90s did do a lot of KC80s stuff. Why? Well maybe it because they felt the new stuff wasn't very good?(OK so that is my opinion) Or more likely is that the KC80s band was the KC90s band. So this time Fripp decided no 'oldies', yet they are doing TOAPP and Heroes (granted a non-KC song but still an oldie). And with TCOL, Frakctured and LTIA4 you are getting oldies done in a new way. Now my biggest gripe, this notion that ones needs to listen to something multiple times before getting it. And its corollary of how many people seem not to like Crim records the first time. I find both of these very strange. The idea that you can be a Crim head yet hate every Crim record the first time you hear is bizarre to say the least. Why be a fan? When I first heard Court I liked it, granted 21CSM threw me, but I was a mere child at time (13 ). A few years later when I got SABB I loved it from the first, the second side blew me away. Several years later after acquiring most things Fripp in nature, Discipline came out. Again I was blown away by it from the first. I didn't need repeated listens to get it. Now did I find more to like about upon further listening, yes no question. Am I better listener then most? No, I don't think so. So why do I not repeated listening to get it? I'm not sure, I haven't figured it out yet. It might have to do with my perceptions and expectations compared to others. Or it might be that I don't need to seem 'special'. With "Look what I can listen to, but it's difficult music, you need several listen to 'get it' "attitude. Finally, it beyond my wildest imagination that anyone can condone Fripp's behavior to his audience! Do you people let your kids behave anyway they want? Fripp walking out or cutting the set because of one person taking a picture is childish. There is no other word for it. To make the many suffer because of a few is just immature. But to defend such behavior is stupidity. Granted the person taking the picture is not much better, if that person knows that Fripp doesn't not want pictures taken. Maybe he came in late and didn't hear the announcement, or maybe he is an asshole and wants to piss Fripp off. Who knows, but maybe 'correct' behavior is at least take the camera and at most remove the person and continue the show. Punishing everyone is again childish. It's only a R&R show, no matter how many of you think it is a religious experience. And Fripp is wrong. What would any of you say to your child if he exhibited this behavior? I know I won't tolerate it. Keep the Faith (in the Music) Ken Brown ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #717 ********************************