Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #714 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 714 Wednesday, 19 July 2000 Today's Topics: NEWS: CGT and Tony Levin to appear on CNN Worldbeat THIS WEEKEND Artist Shop Radio and more Fripp`s/McLaughlin`s conflicting opinions (from 1982 interview) on Shepherds Bush let the power fall Bjork/Schmork Live in Mexico City a summation Paris Concert/My Collector's Edition No. 3 new ears The Best of BootTV Re: Odd-Time Signatures Mole's Club, TCOL and Deja Vroom Re: Don Ellis Re: The Problem with TCOL Re: Mr. Bungle Projekct X Bruford, Towner and Gomez The Don Ellis Debate Rages On Re: Bjork ??? Re: Basement dweller strikes in Houston! King Crimson has "outyouthed" you. Thoughts about Crimson Album and ET debates ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 00:13:41 -0600 From: Jon Lybrook Subject: NEWS: CGT and Tony Levin to appear on CNN Worldbeat THIS WEEKEND CNN Worldbeat features the CGT and Tony Levin THIS WEEKEND! The CGT will appear on CNN Worldbeat featuring highlights from the Quebec City Summer Festival filmed the week of July 5, 2000 along with Tony Levin. The performance, played before one of the largest audiences the CGT has yet to appear in front of, was estimated at between 12,000 and 15,000 spectators. The show will highlight various musicians in addition to the CGT and Tony Levin. Episode will be aired: Saturday, July 22 - Midnight Eastern Time Sunday, July 23rd - 3:30 pm Eastern Time CNN International will also air the episode on the Quebec City Summer Fest around the world over the weekend of July 22nd at various times. CNN's Worldbeat website can be found at http://www.cnn.com/WorldBeat/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 19:19:52 -0400 From: Gary Davis Subject: Artist Shop Radio and more Hi, folks: The latest Artist Shop newsletter is out and you'll find it at . But here are some excerpts Crimson fans will appreciate. First, I'm truly excited to announce a new project I've developed called Artist Shop Radio. You'll find it at . As far as I know, it's unique among internet radio stations in that instead of the content originating from one source, the playlist for Artist Shop Radio is actually programmed by a number of different musicians and independent labels. And thanks to able assistance from Rob Murphree and Stan Hertzmann, Adrian's label, Adrian Belew Presents is among the programmers for Artist Shop Radio! I sincerely hope you'll check it out! There's another new page I've added to The Artist Shop that some of you may find interesting. Basically I've set up an affiliation with a company called Sheet Music Plus. I have a page for them at . I've always felt that progressive music fans were much more musically literate and had a higher percentage of actual musicians than the general music buying public at large. As such, I've always wanted to do something with sheet music and now I have. Although I should add the Sheet Music Plus also deals in books and music instructional videos, too. On that page I've included a number of links to specific artists within the Sheet Music Plus catalog and you will find a link to Adrian Belew among them! In this case, the link leads to Adrian's instructional video. Actually, there's a link for King Crimson, too, but that actually leads back to Adrian. There's also a link for Bill Bruford! We also have a new label in The Artist Shop, 3rd Stone Records at . Among their releases are: Bass Communion/Bass Communion (1) ....import CD Bass Communion is the name Steve Wilson (No-Man, Porcupine Tree, etc.) gives to recordings he has been making since 1994 in an ambient vein. Most of the pieces are experiments in texture and are generated from processing recordings of real instrumental perfomances. This first Bass Communion CD (the second can be found on our Voiceprint page) also features saxophonist Theo Travis (Gong, Cipher) and a sample material provided by Robert Fripp. soundbite - No-Man/Wild Opera ....import CD Guest performers: Natalie Box - violins, Mel Collins - saxophone, sample material, Robert Fripp - sample material, Richard Barbieri - sample material. No-Man's fourth studio album proper - an unfettered amalgam of art-rock, trip-hop and difficult dub influences building on demanding improvisatory writing sessions; strong, strange and instinctive. The sound of a band rediscovering reasons to exist. Music on the move (to where?)... soundbite - And there are other No-Man selections on this page which may interest some of you as No-Man vocalist Tim Bowness seems to be a regular ET contributor. Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com artshop at artist-shop dot com phone: 877-856-1158, 330-929-2056 fax:330-945-4923 INDEPENDENT PROGRESSIVE MUSIC!!! ************************************************************** Check out the latest Artist Shop newsletter at http://www.artist-shop.com/news.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 11:56:09 -0500 From: Craig Subject: Fripp`s/McLaughlin`s conflicting opinions (from 1982 interview) on 'recording devices' Hello, Thanks to Toby for providing that URL w/ the article (from the ET interview archives). It was *GREAT* to read it again! Fascinating & insightful reading it is................(two of the greatest guitarists alive!!!). I`ve met them both. John is an extremely cordial fellow. Robert,....(well) ;^) ....apparently, it depends on whether you have the proper French confections. :^) and *plenty* of coffee. Strange how Fripp goes on & on about many of his favourite/influential recordings, but when McLaughlin asks him, "...don't you...do you listen to records?", Fripp`s response is, "Very rarely, very rarely." and " I'd prefer to go and see a live show." Hmmmm. That`s his preference, of course........... My reaction is,live shows are great, if you can handle the noxious, smokey atmosphere, but ....How can you see a live show of whomever inspires you (for example, in Fripp`s case, his favourite drummer, Tony Williams, when he was just not performing anywhere?, or too far away?, or now that he`s sadly no longer w/ us), whenever you like??? You/he can`t. That`s why a library of recorded music (live AND studio), is such a treasure. You can visit whenever the inspiration occurs. You can re-experience (even if only to a lesser degree) that magic. McLaughlin`s reasoning is very solid here. Sometimes the artist is so inspired he`s become "transfigured". To quote him (JM),..."It was so good, so great. It was so intelligent, so beautiful, so elegant, so eloquent, all those words and all those...so inspired! He was playing like an angel." I for one, am *extremely* glad that the NPR station I worked for was recording one of those magical performances by JM one evening when I saw him. Time would gradually leech it from my memory, otherwise, & I want to retain it. When a certain moment happens on the tape, I can "see" it in my mind`s eye, & this brings it all back like a flood! Fripp has his "preference" however, & that should surely be honoured, so he won`t feel "violated". 8^) The audience he requires *was* there at a recent intimate P-3 show I saw in a small venue w/ perhaps 250 people in attendance. No smoking 8^), no cameras, & a *very* raptly attentive audience in very close proximity sitting in folding chairs. It was ideal, but rare. Not the1100 people he would have liked, but enough to make the world spin backwards, briefly, despite the miserable acoustics & PA system of the place. (Fripp must have thought it was a good one, as he included some of it in the ProjeKCts box set). ~Craig This is an excerpt taken from that interview with John McLaughlin by Robert Fripp in Musician Magazine No.45, July, 1982. ******************************************************** Fripp: We were talking about touring and so on. I have a lot of difficulty, when I play a show, with cameras and recording machines. Because, at the very least, they seem to steal the innocence available in the present moment. If there were an audience of 1100 people at the Savoy, all of whom could listen without any expectation or demands, without bothering about bootlegging on little machines like this (points to cassette deck) or taking pictures...boy, I think you could make the world spin backwards. McLaughlin: That's true, but let's look at it from another point of view. I remember a couple of years ago, I was at the Village Vanguard to see Bill Evans play. He was playing with Philly Joe Jones, and Chuck Israels was sitting in for the night. I've heard Bill play a lot of times, but he was just...*transfigured*. It was so good, so great. It was so intelligent, so beautiful, so elegant, so eloquent, all those words and all those...so inspired! He was playing like an angel. And believe me I *regretted* not having a tape machine. I regretted it. To want to be able to hear that again is a perfectly natural thing. Fripp: Well, yes sure, but... McLaughlin: I mean, don't you...do you listen to records? Fripp: Very rarely, very rarely. McLaughlin: *Anyone*? You rarely listen to music of *any kind*? Fripp: I mean, you're not going to listen to Balinese Gamelan unless you have the Explorer Nonesuch series and so on, but otherwise I'd prefer to go and see a live show. As Blake once said, "He who doth bend himself in joy, doth the winged life destroy." Now if you *know* that you experience of that will *only* be in this moment, with no before or after...you're *there*, you have to be there, if you knew you were going to go home and listen to it afterwards... McLaughlin: By listening to the music...I wasn't thinking about a tape recorder at the time. I was just...I mean...Dave Liebman was there and I was jumping *up* and *down* on my seat I was so excited...because it didn't stop coming...just like a fountain, and I was there with my mouth open, just drinking it in. I didn't think about the tape recorder until *after*, but... Fripp: Some of the most amazing gigs I've known weren't musically very good. Just listening to tapes afterward...I mean there's a real *turkey* happening. It wasn't down to notes, it was down to the energy in the room, between the band and the people and the music. McLaughlin: Hmm...not in this case. No. Because I've heard Bill play a lot, so many times I've lost count, and I listen to his records. And it was *that night*...and it was only that set, because the second set was totally different. It was no longer this *magic*. And in other cases, I think it's directly the inspiration of the musician that creates a magical environment. This happens to me in rehearsal, too, when's there's no audience, some of the best things I've ever played... Fripp: The quality present making love with someone, I mean, do you stick it on a videotape to play back? McLaughlin: Maybe (laughs). If that's what you like. I mean, everybody's got their tastes. I don't think we can really criticize, we can't impose you judgement on anyone else. If they're going to do it...I mean, why not? Fripp: No...well, what I say is this: I find it very distracting to work to photographers and cassette machines. And I feel *violated*, when having said that, suddenly, there you have it... McLaughlin: Of course. I've gotten really angry with some photographers who just come in and, without one word, they're like,"Can I take your picture?" It just makes me snap. From anger. But there's only so much control we have and...also...I have to be able to *accept* and not be disturbed. I don't think it's good for the music. I *need* to be...self-contained and not dependent upon any exterior environment. And I can't...I don't want to get in the way of development of what technology we have because it's so...it's part of human nature. I *understand* it. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 21:25:26 +0100 From: "bott" Subject: Shepherds Bush I read the comment s of Sandy Starr.... Yeah absolutely. This was the heaviest gig I've been to in years, and I loved it. I was three rows back and right next to the PA. The bass (Warr Guitar) and V drums were a physical experience. I found the improvs challenging, but hugely enjoyable, and if BootlegTV release an internet only CD, I'll buy it. It was my first Crimso gig ever, and I have to thank Robert personally. A couple of years back I wrote to him to explain how I wanted to see the band, and how I got into them in the first place. Robert responded to the letter personally, distroying the image of a precious muso....Keep it up boys, you were all magnificent, and I'll even forgive you for not playing in Derby (well, who does these days.....) Andy Bott ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 11:25:32 -0500 From: Daniel Santo Orcero Subject: let the power fall Dear ETrs, In the back of "Let the Power Fall" album, there's a quote that begins with "one can work within any structure - once one can work within any structure, some structures are more efficient than others", etc. I'm not into phillosophy, so I don't know where these quotes come from. A friend has told me it's a variation of anarchism's manifesto, but I have my doubts about that. Does someone know it for sure? [ I think it's from J G Bennett -- Toby ] Cheers DanieL ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 16:42:22 -0400 From: David Vella Subject: Bjork/Schmork Crimsomaniacs, I've been reading the Bjork-related posts with increasing trepidation. First off, I'm having trouble seeing why this sort of thread is allowed to continue considering that the "my favorite KC lineup" is a dead thread... Secondly, I really can't see how any of our far-flung desires in this matter have the slightest relevance. Fripp & co., not the fans, decide who the members are. We may just as well write posts wishing that John Lennon were still alive and the Beatles would re-unite. It's not that I'm against a female vocalist/band member either. In fact, in ET#712, Martin Bradburn expands the thread by mentioning other collaborations between women artists and various Crimson Alumni. (He omits the short-lived collaboration with Judy Dyble (sp?) which resulted in at least one recorded song - "I Talk to the Wind".) This to me is a welcome direction! I thoroughly enjoyed Fripp's collaboration with the Roches (wish they'd collaborate some more!) And most of the other collaborations he mentions. I'd welcome more women fans (I'm slowing working on my wife - who did enjoy the show we saw in 1995...), and I'd welcome a women band member (if it were dictated by Fripp et. al., not the fans), but I'm sorry to say Bjork just doesn't do it for me. No judgments implied -- I just had to state my views before the casual reader mistakes this as the wish of the entire ET community. Now Mr. Bradburn mentions Adrian Belew's collaboration with Laurie Anderson. I think back on "Home of the Brave" with fond memories... Laurie in Crimson? Now THAT sounds interesting! If Toby will tolerate the resurrection of the 'favorite lineup' thread, let's hear from all you Laurie Anderson fans.... -David -- ==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==* David C. Vella Office: Harder Hall 219 Associate Professor of Mathematics 518-580-5291 Skidmore College dvella at skidmore dot edu Saratoga Springs, NY 12866 Home: 518-587-5363 web-page: http://www.skidmore.edu/~dvella/dcvbio1.htm ==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==* `I prove a theorem and the house expands, the windows jerk free to hover near the ceiling, the ceiling floats away with a sigh.' -Rita Dove US Poet Laureate (1993) 'Those who dream by day are cognizant of many things that escape those who dream only at night' -Edgar Allan Poe ==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==* ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 20:35:22 -0400 (CLT) From: "Miguel Farah F." Subject: Live in Mexico City Someone within the last seven digests [sorry, I lost the digest and I'm too lazy to search for it] said he lost the Live in Mexico City .WMA file, and asked where could he find it again. I still have it in my LIMC web page, located at http://www.webhost.cl/~miguel/KC/ - grab it if you want it. DO take note, however, that DGMLive stopped issuing licenses for the file, so if you haven't registered it, it's a pointless download. -- MIGUEL FARAH // miguel at webhost dot cl #include // http://www.webhost.cl/~miguel <*> "Trust me - I know what I'm doing." - Sledge Hammer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:17:12 GMT From: "The Zep" Subject: a summation I think this sums it up pretty well. Some years ago i read a story regarding a grateful dead performance. Someone in the audience yelled out "play Little Schoolgirl". After the band chuckled a bit, jerry Garcia stepped to the microphone , asked the fan if they had the record at home (she did) and told her, Then go home and play it, thats what records are for" - Michael Fratangelo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:29:34 +0200 From: Valerie Le Goff et Mickael Vedrine Subject: Paris Concert/My Collector's Edition No. 3 Hi Eters, First of all, my girlfriend and I attended the Paris concert on June 25th. We had a very good evening, even though the sound could have been better (but was far superior than at the Beck concert a few weeks earlier). We particulatly appreciated the work of TG and PM, two incredible players who were maybe a little hidden in the mix of the double trio. There were no flash photographs that I noticed from the audience, but I agree with PM (in his diary) that the official photographers at the beginning of the show were an awful nuisance, moving in front of the stage frenetically and strangely focusing on AB. Fortunately, they soon disappeared, and the Great Crim reigned for the rest of the evening. Thanks to RF, AB, TG and PM for offering us their music. Now, back in time to '73-'74. Today, I made my own Collector's Edition No. 3. After the No. 2 and its multiple versions of Schiziod Man, my No. 3 is called Easy Money features 7 versions of this song from the '73-'74 band. The setlist is : 1. Studio version, 02/73, from LTIA 2. Glasgow Apollo, 10/23/73, from TGD 3. Zurich Volkhaus, 11/15/73, from TGD 4. Amsterdam Concertgebouw, 11/23/73, from TNW 5-6. Penn State University, 06/29/74, from TGD (including It Is For You, Not For Me) 7. Providence, Rhode Island, 06/30/74, from TGD 8. Central Park, New York, 07/01/74, from Live in Central Park, KCCC10 It's really interesting to listen to the variations within this song, in particular RF lines in the "almost a capella" part at the beginning. It looks like he never played twice the same ones. As this cd is for my personnal use only, please don't ask me to send you a copy. Maybe this could be an idea for DGM, as the collector's edition series seems to have dropped dead early (if they've got time for this kind of things, and I'm not sure they have). Bye, Mickael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 09:09:40 -0500 From: "Chip Orr" Subject: new ears I am intrigued by the "old-new" debate that TCoL has spawned. For this longtime Crimhead, TCoL was just like every other Crimson album - my first reaction was what the hell is that, followed by repeated listenings in which I suspended expectations and just listened attentively. I now find much to love in this album. I also recently joined the Club and got ahold of some of the older live recordings. Hearing Bremen and Cap D'Agde and Jacksonville got me back into the "classic" Crimson albums (which I hadn't played in awhile). I noticed that I was hearing the older Crim with new ears. What a joy! Listening attentively to TCoL reminded me of what I've always enjoyed the most about Crimson - rewards abound for the listener who engages as much as the musicians have. If this version of Crim chooses to play the "old" stuff, great. Nothing has blown me away recently quite like P2's "Schizoid Man." (Well, except maybe "FraKctured" and "LTiAIV" and "Frying Pan") But if Crim 2000 doesn't play the "old" stuff, that's fine, too. This version is definitely Crimson, and these new ears are happy to have an old friend visit and remind them of the world of possibilities. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:21:06 PDT From: "alexis rondeau" Subject: The Best of BootTV For those who are interested to know what KC show from the europeen leg of the tour they shoul consider buying first from Btv, well I've been reading Trey and Pat's diary for a while, and they both agree that June 13th (werhever that was..?) is the evening that they are the most proud of, I think. The also both enjoyed the Paris show (whenever that was..?) and had some pretty interesting coments about other show, but I can't remember it all. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:07:36 EDT From: MikeTEACHR at aol dot com Subject: Re: Odd-Time Signatures As to "Odd" Time Signaures ["Odd" here means Non-Western-Traditional-John Sousa-4/4-drilled into from birth]: Give a listen to these non-obscure songs: "Face Dances" by Pete Townshend off of "All the Best Cowboys Have Chinese Eyes" and "My Wave" by Soudgarden on SuperUnknown [?] They both pump along nicely in 5/4. Cheers, Mike [Now Listening to: the tiny fan in the back of my Laptop] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:19:28 -0400 From: "GREG JONES" Subject: Mole's Club, TCOL and Deja Vroom Hey all! Just a couple THOUGHTS ( a blatant plug for another list, I admit it ) about some recent topics on this here forum of the learned and opinionated ( meant affectionately ): Concerning the Mole's Club release: It's cranking on my stereo right now and it sounds great! Have those of you who don't like it tried playing it with the treble up all the way and the bass boosted one or two clicks positive of the center or "flat" position? This is a great sounding boot at those settings, which are probably used by many drummers to pick out hi-hat and ride cymbal patterns as well as boost the bass drum. And how great to hear the vocals in Thela Hun Ginjeet arranged differently! TCOL is still holding up well for me - I think some people may not like the High-tech "sheen" of some of it, but for me, it feels like I'm in the future listening to KC - which proves to me that they're AHEAD of their time, as always! By the way, having just got a DVD player for my 45th birthday ( a good wife IS more precious than jewels! ) and a copy of Deja Vroom, does anyone know which show or shows these performances were taken from? I like them a lot, but not as much as the shows on Broadway, so I'm guessing that these were some months before those shows. Long live the King! Greg Jones ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:06:11 -0400 From: Ted White Subject: Re: Don Ellis In ET 713, Craig responds to this quote: ">Don Ellis's work has more of a period 'psychedelic big band jazz' quality >about it, but there's no doubt he could make 17 time groove like a >latter-day Garage hit. He also did some interesting pre-Miles innovating on >the trumpet, utilising distortions and echo pedals (as on his soundtrack >for The French Connection). "His 'innovating' was never 'pre-Miles.' Don`t try to place Ellis above Miles. To be kind, his work was at best, sometimes, somewhat *contemporaneous* w/ that of Miles. His (Ellis`) tendency to crank out bigband renditions of current pop tunes is a questionable practice for a 'trailblazer' of any sort. The film you refer to was from 1971. Miles did his Bitches Brew (Directions in music :^) in 1969, (& plenty of electric experimenting before that as early as January of `68 w/ Miles in the Sky). He was always the one *leading* the way, still is, & will most likely continue to do so throughout history." This is the kind of fan-worship nonsense which turns me off. Miles Davis was an imperfect human being like most of us (and, in real life, an asshole). Most of his claim to fame rests on his associations with other (better) musicians, starting with Charlie Parker and continuing with Gil Evans, in whose apartment the BIRTH OF THE COOL sessions were born. The hype which surrounds the man is monumental. However, these comparisons of Davis with Ellis miss the real point, which is not Ellis's late-sixties big band albums -- which were more pop-rock oriented -- but his *early sixties* recordings. Specifically, ...HOW TIME PASSES... (1960, Candid CCD 9004), and NEW IDEAS (1961, New Jazz/Prestige Original Jazz Classics OJCCD-431-2). These albums, made by a quartet (the first) or a quintet (the second), featuring Jaki Byard on alto sax and piano, are important albums of experimental jazz which drew upon serialism (12-tone music) and used complex time signatures (note the title of the Candid album), and are unquestionably well beyond what Miles Davis was doing in that same period. In this same period (the early sixties) Don Ellis also played with the George Russell Sextet, to tie this in with another thread explored here recently. --TW (Dr P) dc-et #6 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:18:19 -0500 From: "Grant Colburn" Subject: Re: The Problem with TCOL Alf wrote: >I've been contantly listening to TCOL during the last few days trying to >find what is wrong with it. Interesting hobby! Personally, though I consider KC one of my favorite bands, I think you can find SOMETHING wrong with almost any of their albums if you look hard enough. (For me Red is about the closest they came to a 'flawless' album, but that's just my opinion!) >I have arrived to the conclusion that most of the music is great, but the >performance in itself is not. There is a sort of fear behind it, like if >certain songs are a real challenge to play. That is what it is! And the >players knew this at the time, but were struggling to get it right. I am >positive that if KC would record TCOL today, after the tour, it would be as >amazing as LTIA, where you notice self confidence. I would have almost went along with your feelings a bit had you not compared it to Larks' Tongues in Aspic. For me LTIA, moreso than any other KC album, shows EVERY sign of not being rehearsed or performed live any more than TCOL. Wetton's singing on a lot of LTIA to me has always sounded pretty weak and not overly in tune. The same critiques seems to be true especially with the performance of Larks' 2 on the studio album. To me its always been very ponderous and uninspired sounding along with too slow! Larks' 1, on the other hand, I think is a great track that they never really topped live, but the rest of the album surely was played much better live than the original recordings. Back to your criticism of TCOL though, I'm sure it will be better live, but this isn't unique to this particular album. I would say its pretty much true of all of KC's studio albums. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:41:44 -0500 From: "Kitchens" Subject: Re: Mr. Bungle The 'older gentleman is named William Winant. He has worked with artists such as Frank Zappa and Sonic Youth. They also had a touring musician (can't remember the name) that played keyboards. That brings the full live band to 7 members. -KITCHENS- -70116302- >> Mr. Bungle is one of my favorite 90's bands and I don't >>think they've ever had any guest musicians besides string-instrument >>players. > >Not so. Last time they came through here they added an older gentleman >(who is apparently a classically trained percussionist who does alot of >avant stuff (Cage, Varese, Stockhausen etc) > >*GREAT band*! >~Craig ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:57:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Miklos Subject: Projekct X Hi all After almost 1 1/2 year of live Projekct music (from dec 1st, 1997 until march 25th, 1999) which produced 5 official CDs (not counting the Beginners Guide) and numerous bootlegs from all formations (4 x P1, lots of P2, 3 x P3 and some, at least, 5 x P4s) I can tell that I was really surprised when I firts listened to PX. After tCOL I was not expecting that much. The PX music is the best Projekct stuff I've ever heard (please, IMHO). It is so well played and recorded. So much creativity. Again, IMHO, it has touched me more than tCOL and being more present in my CD player than tCOL itself. It brought me back to the Projekct boots. I do not think I will ever listen to the Projekct box again, but will rather prefer a sense of beginning and end, presented in a complete show, with all its continuity. Hope PX was not edited like the live stuff was. If so, would like to hear the rehearsals. Ronald Vogel (Brazil) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:58:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Miklos Subject: Bruford, Towner and Gomez Hi Like jazz? Buy Bruford with Ralph Towner and Eddie Gomez and delight yourself with a real jazz CD. Ronald Vogel (Brazil) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:21:13 +0100 From: Tim Bowness Subject: The Don Ellis Debate Rages On > Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 16:07:00 -0500 > From: Craig > > The film you refer to was from 1971. Miles did > his Bitches Brew (Directions in music :^) in 1969, (& plenty of electric > experimenting before that as early as January of `68 w/ Miles in the Sky). > He was always the one *leading* the way, still is, & will most likely > continue to do so throughout history. I'm very aware that The French Connection was made in 1971, but if we have to be pedantic, Ellis's 'Electric Bath' (which I also mentioned in my post) was made in 1967 and features extensive use of echoed and distorted trumpet passages (on the track 'Open Beauty') which obviously predates the material you mention above. I'm a huge Miles fan and feel he's one of the most influential musical artists of the last half century, although like The Beatles (another Fripp fave) he had a tendency to perfect ideas and innovations that had predated his own experiments. In my opinion, he rarely led the way, but he did uniquely consolidate what had gone on prior to him (e.g. William's Lifetime and George Russell's electric band with Terje Rypdal on guitar came before 'Bitches Brew'; Stan Kenton's orchestral experiments predate his work with Gil Evans by a good seven years; Miles poached Joe Zawinul and his electric piano sound from Cannonball Adderley etc...). I wouldn't consider Ellis to be an equal of Miles, but along with Dave Brubeck, Alice Coltrane and George Russell, I feel he's worthy of being slightly more than an ignored footnote in the history of jazz, and as I pointed out, he liked a tricky time signature almost as much as the average Crimson fan. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 21:38:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Doug McKee <30-years at mail dot com> Subject: Re: Bjork ??? In ET #813, Jon Swinghammer mentioned... >It's pretty funny to see how bjork is being discussed > here days after I finally got off my butt to get her latest CD. Actually (and with all due respect) it is not funny at all. Bjork does have some talent and has a certain following. That being the case, however, does not justify the premise of this entire discussion. To the point, I can't imagine Bjork doing King Crimson vocals anymore than I could imagine Britney Spears (God help us!!!) or some other creature of commercialism in this diminished yet still critical role. Regards, Doug ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 20:10:20 -0400 From: Manuel Fernandez Subject: Re: Basement dweller strikes in Houston! Don Lawrence wrote: >>Guess which one of the four was Stolen! > >Clearly, times have changed. Back in 1984, my entire CD collection was >stolen, apart from (you guessed it) my sole King Crimson CD, "Three of a >Perfect Pair". My then girlfriend took this to be the ultimate critical >evaluation of KC. Sad to say, 15 years of marriage have failed to change her >opinion ... It seems like today's burglars have much better taste. Two weeks ago my family was assaulted at home by two armed men. They paused to look at my records and calmly proceeded to pickup my entire collection of Crimson, Zappa, Primus, Floyd, Genesis, Mahavishnu and oddly, Beck. They let me keep all the Metallica, Rush, Queen, AC/DC, Beatles, Stones and other stuff you'd consider more "mainstream". I was enraged but also impressed. I thought that's the kind of records I would steal. :-) Best regards. -- Manuel Fernandez O. Penguin # 151938 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 21:48:55 -0400 From: Manuel Fernandez Subject: King Crimson has "outyouthed" you. Hello, I'm having a great KC day and decided to mark it by posting to this forum. You see, I just got TCOL today at a local department store. (Of all places! In this Country! With a promotional discount! Woo!) I let a loud scream, called a fellow crimhead over the cell phone to COME HERE, QUICK: Crimson emergency! We met and then bough two copies and I went home thinking about all the controversy in this forum. The disc is now on its third pass. This band has hardened! Not as much melody as in past records and much more "terror", but that's ok with me; it's exactly my cup of tea. Perhaps it's because of this that some people are having trouble with TCOL. I can perfectly understand not liking it, but I can't understand anybody saying that this is not KC and that KC is dead. The King is alive and well, he's just very angry! :-) Perhaps the problem is that KC is a middle-aged band playing young music (revisited fragments of past works not withstanding). No disrespect to older fans, but it's a fact that many people get set in their ways with years, and this includes audients, musicians and their music. I'm thrilled that KC as a mature band is still a bunch of uncompromising, adventurous freaks. Maybe they have "outhyouthed"some of us! ;-) -- Manuel Fernandez O. -Crimsonized in Venezuela ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 03:13:32 -0400 From: Erc Subject: Thoughts about Crimson Album and ET debates First of all, I must say that I am a relatively new listener to King Crimson, having discovered In the Court only a few years ago (the group originally formed about ten years before myself !). I liked it more and more as I listened to it, but it was during one specific day, during one specific listening, that suddenly, the title song moved me immensely And then I talk to the Wind, then Moonchild, then Schizoid Man (which I found much to hard, at first, being a fan of softer songs). Since then I've listen to almost all of Crimson's studio works and have developped the habit of desperately hating everyone of them for a period ranging from 6 months to 2 years after having first heard it. Then, has happened with In the Court, I found myself deeply touched by each record and then I become an addict (The album I hated the most was Island, which is now one of my favorite...) The point is, King Crimson, and any kind of music in general, is not a matter of liking it or not, but a matter of taming it to our ears... An open mind is quite beneficial if one wish to fully appreciate it. Comparing this piece with that one is beyond the point, since this attitude only serves to link everything to the past KC has never been afraid to sever itself totally from the past, and has never been afraid to return to it either ! There is four Lark's Tongue pieces, after all There is always a difficulty to let go of the past, on which is based all things commercial and "pop"ular, be it in music, cinema or literature. When I first listened to Pink Floyd's Animals, I was outraged ! It seemed lifeless, and I was shocked how much keyboard had lost strength compared to previous albums. Yet, I find today that it quite a good album, though different from any other before or after. Nostalgia is a good thing, but no artist should stick to it. As was said in Sandy Starr's posting, 1990's Pink Floyd (speaking about them) has became the epitome of nostalgic bands with their Division Bell tour, which I found quite disappointing. They played Dark Side of the Moon in full, but let go several very nice pieces from their newest installment, on which the tour was based ! One or two oldies are nice, but one complete album ! If an artist's feeling is that he/she wished to stop progressing to go back in time, then so be it. King Crimson seems to be inclined to continue forward. That is good too, not necessarily better. A record exists for the sole purpose of nostalgia, to remember... Touring exists for the benefits of an artist that wishes to communicate directly his feelings to an audience. Artists first play for themselves, but like anybody else, wishes to be heard. It is a privilege to go to a show (even though we pay for it), so there is no points in complaining. Like it or dislike it. That's all. No fuzz, and no insult, please The fact is, many commotion only serves to waste space in newsletter. Personally, I find it much more interesting to learn about women fans of KC, or be encouraged to listen to Bjork or Mr. Bungle's records than to "He wrote this" "I wrote that" kind of discussion. It takes only two line to state an opinion. I didn't like TcoL because That's it ! Come on, let's all love each other ! Let's gather in Southern Carolina and have a brunch ! See ya ! Eric ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #714 ********************************