Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #712 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 712 Saturday, 15 July 2000 Today's Topics: In support of the Shepherd's Bush gig and future-oriented bands why touring? Bjork Re: HomogeniKc and more... TCoL Distortion & Post Length KC in Mexico -live Present Moment category @ DGM site Milano Due Anyone Wanna Trade? US warm up... Just wondering... laugh a little...... Re: King Crimson's latest work.... trower ET: Critical Writing BjorKc purchasing Crimson merchandise Re: drums, Bob's Expanding Headband Re: Odd Time Sigs by the Old, Gray, and Sometimes Deceased FraKcturing Fripp... Hardest KC song to play ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:17:05 +0100 From: Sandy Starr Subject: In support of the Shepherd's Bush gig and future-oriented bands There have been a couple of recent criticisms of the KC London Shepherd's Bush gig on ET. Two samples: Gareth Page 'On to the performance: It wasn't a spectrum of tonal shades. More an "everything cranked up all of the time" sort of show. The thrash of V drums (you may as well hit a car bonnet with a crow bar) does nothing for me. I normally appreciate those odd little time signatures, but when they're played so fast and loud, any feeling is lost.' 'Rich' 'I felt the music was totally one-dimentional with no light and shade at all. The improvisations were lacking in structure and seemed to meander aimlessly for too long and too often. I yearned for a rendition of something unexpected (is a track from Islands or Lizard too much to ask - surely this band could put an arrangement together of something pre 1981?).' I loved the London gig, but first let me make my position clear. A lot of people have written in to ET saying that they 'don't mind' TCOL or V-drums or the dense digitised sound that characterises the new KC. Well, not only do I 'not mind' these things, I _love_ them. KC for me is currently as good as it has ever been. I confess that as well as being a long-standing KC fan, I'm a fan of a lot of heavy music that not all KC fans might like. Bands I'm fond of include Black Sabbath, Motorhead, Manowar and Rammstein. When I heard TCOL, I was thrilled at the combination of precision and density, a magic formula if there ever was one. RF was right when he said in a diary a while ago that RF was now a _heavy rock_ band again. When the band kicked off with 'Frying Pan' at Shepherd's Bush, the immediate rock thrill was akin to that on the thundering opening cords of 'Easy Money' on the Night Watch album. My favourite new track, both live and on the TCOL album, is Larks Tongues in Aspic IV. This is epic rock - for me it doesn't get much better than this. As well as being epic, it is also experimental - it reminds me in many ways of the 15-minute track 'Headcleaner' on Einsturzende Neubauten's album Tabula Rasa. (Are there any other KC/Neubauten fans out there? I'd like to hear from you! I think there are some fascinatic parallels between the bands.) When KC played LTiA IV at Shepherd's Bush, I was surrounded by a wall of noise, the bass end was making my chest pound, and I was loving every minute of it. Now, I accept that not everybody shares my love of the pounding noise factor (although I will defend it to the hilt against those who automatically classify it as a lower form of musical enjoyment). And I too can be a sensitive soul, listing to 'Moonchild' and 'Matte Kudasi' whilst dancing through fields making daisy chains (well, maybe not the latter :-) But to say the band improvs 'were lacking in structure and seemed to meander aimlessly for too long and too often' really strikes me as unfair. If you were looking for 'light and shade' in the concert, the improvs were where you could find it. Far from 'meandering aimlessly,' I found the improvs moving and coherent. Perhaps what Rich means by 'meandering' is the improvisation process itself? Or put another way, did he enjoy the ProjeKcts box set? Finally, some comments on the ongoing 'surely this band could put an arrangement together of something pre 1981?' debate. Nostalgia is pleasant, but I like a band that changes, evolves, and seems to be be standing on its past achievements instead of leaning on them. Writing a remarkable piece like 'FracKtured' which is informed by work from the past is _standing_ on past achievements. Playing 'In The Court of the Crimson King' when it doesn't seem appropriate to the current sound and direction, in order to kindle a warm nostalgic glow, would be _leaning_ on past achievements. If you look at the many other bands that have had long enough careers for nostalgia to be a factor, you find some really interesting parallels with King Crimson. In several cases, the same argument has arisen amongst fans - 'Why do they keep the same name if they make such different music?' It is usually precisely when the fans are most pissed off that the band are being _future-oriented_ instead of _past-oriented_. I think a band has to stay future-oriented, because nostalgia suppresses innovation. I also find it interesting how changing band line-ups become a sort of soap opera entertainment for the fans, and can distract them from the Music. To illustrate what I mean, here's a selection of bands: Emerson, Lake and Palmer Some of their best stuff was on two much-maligned albums from the 1980s (Love Beach and Emerson, Lake and Powell), and a 1992 comeback album was fairly future-oriented, but the follow-up album to that and the 1990s live performances were entirely nostalgia dominated. Genesis This is one of the few cases where I concede to the nostalgists. The bizarre rise and fall of this band, from naive whimsy to groundbreaking work in seven years and from groundbreaking work to pop blandness over the following twenty-five years, is a sad tale. Marillion This is a really interesting example. This band _started out_ dominated by nostalgic influences from the 1970s, but after they changed their lead singer in 1988 (and oh boy did the fans complain, they're still complaining now) the band very quickly became future-oriented, and has become more and more so over the past decade. Pink Floyd Since their reformation in 1987, almost entirely nostalgia dominated. The two studio albums made in 1987 and 1994 have a fair share of future-oriented material, but the corresponding tours, with 10-piece backing band (!), were a kind of (pleasant enough) nostalgia circus. The Who By the time of their last studio album in 1984, had become pretty much entirely nostalgia dominated. The 1988 comeback tour and all subsequent tours have been nostalgia fests. Yes Showed an admirable flexibility when they completely changed their sound in the 1980s. (Interesting parallel: in 1981 Discipline decide to call themselves King Crimson despite their complete distinctiveness from that band's past; in 1984 Camera decide to call themselves Yes despite their complete distinctiveness from that band's past.) Lapsed into nostalgia exercises in the 1990s and have remained there ever since, despite occasional glimpses of future-orientation (1994's much maligned album Talk was, in my opinion, one of these). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:01:14 -0500 From: Daniel Santo Orcero Subject: why touring? Dear ETrs: My two cents about RF relationships with the audiences is, if he hates so much his public, and suffer all his performances, why does him keep on touring?? Moneymoney? I understand Fripp's thoughts about the matter, but he seems to be going pathologycally neurothic in his reactions. DanieL ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 10:24:01 -0400 From: Martin Bradburn Subject: Bjork I was very interested in this thread. I had watched a TV special on the making of Homogenic and didn't get around to getting it until, the same time as I received TCOL. The use of different/modified percussion intrigued me on both recordings. They also are similar in that they are sonically assaultive in places although less so on the Bjork disk. I have always believed that entities are more balanced when women are evolved. I have found this true in many forms of work. The bands that I have played in just seemed more satisfying when a woman's perspective was included. I have really enjoyed the collaboration of KC members with women such as: RF - Exposure, The Roches, SAOTW (maybe my favorite non KC RF), LoG, LoCG Trey - Solo Albums Ade - Laurie Anderson I hope that music continues to lead in struggle for equality of the sexes, and a female member of KC could give a multi-dimensional unit yet one more facet. Hope this isn't to much of a rant. Happy Bastile Day - Martin 'We know others to the extent we know ourselves' - Guitar Craft Aphorism ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 10:27:34 -0400 (EDT) From: flohansson at hockeymail dot com Subject: Re: HomogeniKc and more... Hello again! It's funny that I am not the only one listening to Bjork (and absolutely enjoying her music!) AND to King Crimson (simply the best!). It's even funnier that somebody else has thought of a connection between her and KC, or even both of them on the same stage! I would also like to know if the respective artists like the work (or show at least mutual respect) of each other. Any ideas, comments, facts... ? (~TIMEWARP~) Some years ago, when I was a Crimso-greenhorn, I was thrilled by the (more or less) hidden connections between KC and some others of my favourite musicians (Talking Heads, Genesis, Peter Gabriel, David Bowie, U2). Actually my first KC album was "Discipline" and I listened to it, because I read the names of some familiar guys on the back of the sleeve ("Bruford? Hey, he played on 'Seconds Out' by Genesis. Levin? Haven't I read his name on a Peter Gabriel CD?", etc.) So what about Bjork? flo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 10:29:44 EDT From: MarkJX at aol dot com Subject: TCoL Distortion & Post Length Hi All - Has anyone else noticed that ProzaKc Blues starts off extremely distorted? Or is it my stereo? Also, methinks that the value of a post is inversely proportional to its length. So I'll stop there. Mark J. np: Mastica '99 - Idiot ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:53:36 +0100 From: Boller dot And at t-online dot de (Andreas Boller) Subject: KC in Mexico -live I have lost the wma-file "King Crimson live in Mexico City". Is there anyone who can send it to me or tell me, where to get it? Please help me!!! Andreas/Frankfurt a.M. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:01:59 -0500 From: "Benjamin Adler" Subject: Present Moment category @ DGM site Just wondering how many people have been reading Andrew Kealing (sp?)'s complete analyses of KC albums, which has quite a few more discs to go through? IntheCoftheCK seems so much more interesting now, after reading this (although I'm a listener, not a musician) Benjamin Adler ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 00 12:39:00 -0700 From: "David Voci" Subject: Milano Due Ciao Fanatici Milanese, Awhile back, around the high 500's and early 600 numbered issues, I had asked about the area in Milano called La Scala and Duomo and the galleria that connects the two. Oddly enough, there was, at least in the 70's, a huge rendition of the first Crimson LP cover courtesy of one Barry Godber, at the top of the galleria roof in full splendor. In ET688, an Italian fan from Milano? ("Enzo Diodato Lamberti" )had written looking for concert companions... Since this tells me that he is maybe near Milano can you Enzo, or anyone else within these pages, validate my comment regarding this beautiful impression that at least up til my leaving Milano in 1979, was hanging under this connector galleria to La Scala in all it's original glory? That's the 'Court Of The Crimson King' album cover. Stammi Bene, dv ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 00 13:20:20 -0700 From: "David Voci" Subject: Anyone Wanna Trade? Dear Musicnauts, I would like to ask herein whether anyone who has the KCCC releases out there would consider taping a few select ones for me in trade for same or CDR's of stuff I have. I'm mainly interested in the material thru '75. I have a vast collection of vinyl/cd's to choose from with alot of limited release stuff. Wouldn't mind a tape of USA either. I prefer American responses(private) but don't mind European interest(Gnad??). Best Of, dv ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:09:20 EDT From: "Belew Girl" Subject: US warm up... Does Crimson really need a warm up band? I would rather prefer to hear Roberts' soundscapes softly cascading the air.... serving as the backdrop for the next (long awaited) ebullience.. Ufff.... and how we wait patiently indeed ;) Suzanne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:23:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Alfred Bello Subject: Just wondering... I've read x amounts of posts regarding the photography during concerts theme, as we all ETers have. And, by the way, I'm getting tired of reading the same stuff over and over (perhaps, I hope, others ETers are tired with this trend too). A simple question pops into my mind, and I wish this question could reach Fripp and Gunn and obtain an answer from them: What is it that bothers you Gentlemen? The fact of knowing you are being photographed or the concentration interruption originated by the flash? Could either or both of the gentlemen involved answer this simple question? An answer to this could most certainly clarify what the real problem is. Then a solution could be found. I think. Alf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:40:29 -0400 From: "Eric / Susan Young" Subject: laugh a little...... Ahhh, opinions!! They're like a**holes, right? .....everyone's got one one. Well, they're like farts too.... everyone's stinks but your own! Long live free thinking! And God Bless KC. Eric ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 22:12:35 -0500 From: v-dorje at ticnet dot com Subject: Re: King Crimson's latest work.... >the album, 'ConstrucKction of Light' and the live appearances. >Having listened to the whole album a number of times in the past few days, >it strikes me as top quality King Crimson, the equal of anything they've >done before. Now go back & have a listen to Lizard, or LTiA, or Red, or, etc etc....I truly *wish* I could agree, but,.... it flounders next to these groundbreaking early & middle period records. For any other band it`s some kind of godsend, but for KC it`s treading water. (This is not to say that this new direction (of sorts) won`t lead to something fantastic,....eventually). 8^) Personally, I`d like to see them add a horn section 8^) Live is a different story, though, it would seem, (from what I`ve heard so far). The ConstrucKction of Light material seems to work much better in a live context. >You could just as easily criticize Bill Bruford's >drum sound - his snare, for instance, very boxy and sharp, all rim shot. >Quite weedy at times. Not me. I love it! (Weedy? What the hell is that?) BB`s snare sound is his trademark, (or was, I should say). His style is so very British jazz, & that 'touch', combined with the tightly tuned snare drum (w/ snare turned off), always made his playing instantly recognizable. ...........Think I`ll go find my copy of "One of a Kind" now. Follow it up w/ LTiA, or SaBB. (It`s been awhile). ~Craig PS: Anyone out there know where I could locate a copy of the interview The Fripp did w/ John McLaughlin (whilst devouring his French chocolates) for (I believe it was), Guitar Player or some such magazine??? They actually hired RF to do this. I remember reading it very loooong ago, & thinking it was extremely fascinating. I do recall JM saying something highly praising about Bruford during the course of the interview, btw. (Fripp often has had "harsh" words for BB & his approach). LTiA was certainly influenced by the first incarnation of JM`s Mahavishnu Orchestra. BB, it seems, must have been listening to Cobham alot. I`m sure JM`s style has 'informed' that of RF as well. [ You can find a transcript of that interview at ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/intervws/fripp-mc.htm -- Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 23:17:24 -0400 From: "Timothy W Cox" Subject: trower "HE SAVED MY LIFE" (Fripp 1996), and mine as well!!! I recently saw Robin Trower and, as always, he blew me away. The man played with such passion and enthusiasm that each note tugged at the heart. He does more with his volume knob and pedal than most do with racks of effects.His new material sounded great, but what interested me the most was the huge smiles that broke upon his face when he played his old material. These are songs that he has played countless times at nearly every show and this time with yet another new trio (same drummer as last tour). In fact these old songs sounded better at times than when played by the original lineup. So I ask this question: Why does the current Crim feel it would be impossible to capture similar energy if they were to attempt to play older material which was "written, played, and recorded at another time" (this was Mr. Fripps reasoning in his diary) . I am not insisting that they play older material. God knows I would love to witness "Fallen Angel" live just once, but they're reasoning behind the decision seems absurd (I probably shouldn't use the word "THEY'RE"). If it was truly good music once then it shall always be. Of course the album collection is always there to relive the past, but we all know that a live show is where it's at. I am always enthused about new Crim music, but we should be equally enthused about past accomplishments. Like art, it is necessary to look at a painters body of work to get an understanding of his/her style. Lastly, prior to Trowers show it was requested by the announcer that no flash cameras or recording devices be used and from my vantage point the request seemed to be obeyed. Now this was a simple request that was announced without any threats and I have never known Trower to get all fired up and throw a tantrum if these things did occur. My point is, perhaps Mr. Fripp has unintentionally tempted his fans to disobey his requests by being so theatrical about the situation. Well, these are all thoughts that have emerged this night and none are meant with any degree of negativity, just question marks???? P.S. Please don't mention Bjork and Crimson in the same breath, I usually eat while reading ET and would like to keep my food down!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 20:52:19 -0600 From: "Luna Negra, S.C." Subject: ET: Critical Writing Hi: > From: "J. Robinson" > Subject: Critical writing > > Does anyone know where I can find serious critical writing on Bob Fripp > and King Crimson (apart from in ET, of course)? And on > other prog rock acts? Hey Jeremy, if you're able to read Spanish, take a look at the Spanish magazine MARGEN. You can get some information about this magazine at http://www.arrakis.es/~margen Unfortunatelly, no on-line articles but well worth suscribing. Margen is a 100 page magazine devoted to new music and comes with 2 cds. On number 19/20 you'll find an interview with Bob Fripp. See you, Juan Jose @ Luna Negra ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 23:35:43 -0400 From: ebanatt at bellatlantic dot net Subject: BjorKc >Someone had asked in the last newsletter if anyone in KC had an opinion >about Bjork. You might have to check back in RF's diary a bit, but I think >that he's mentioned Bjork on several occasions, including the fact that she >asked if she could do a cover of "Mary". Fripp said that he'd be honored. > >Has anyone heard anything else about this? The most I know right now is >that the soundtrack for the Lars Von Trier musical that she stars in is due >out in September. I've been hearing a lot about this film, "Dancer in the >Dark", and I can't wait to see it. Quite a lot of people are talking about Bjork. I have been intrigued by her music, which is fresh sounding and forward thinking pop. Mary was requested by Bjork as a cover song, but hasn't been recorded yet, or no news. Dancer in the Dark, directed by Lars von Trier (Breaking the Waves) premiered in Cannes winning the Palm D'or for von Trier (Best Picture) and a Best actress for Bjork. I think Bjork and Bob would make some interesting collaborations. Bjork scat on soundscapes. Or a Bjork-scat scape. (Bjork does this "Icelandic-Gibberish hybrid" scat singing.) End titles to "Being John Malcovich" as an example. Please direct any Bjork questions to my personal email. :) Not too sure about the waters here. ;) Eddie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 23:47:38 EDT From: "Tish Skeie" Subject: purchasing Crimson merchandise I was interested in purchasing Robert Fripp's string quartet live in Japan on video. Would you be able to direct me on doing this? Thank You Sincerely Todd Skeie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 23:52:35 -0400 From: Andrew Acunzo Subject: Re: drums, Bob's Expanding Headband A couple of replies to recent posts: "J. Robinson" wrote: >And the whole debate in 'Elephant Talk' about the V drums is redundant: >they sound just fine. You could just as easily criticize Bill Bruford's >drum sound - his snare, for instance, very boxy and sharp, all rim shot. >Quite weedy at times. There is a heretic in our midst! One must not criticize the Bruford snare. You may just as well criticize Fripp's infinite sustain sound from the '70s. Or Levin's stick playing on Elephant Talk. Or Greg Lake's singing on Epitaph. Some things are simply beyond criticism. >Having seen both Bruford and Mastelotto live, I think they're both >excellent musicians. There, that's better. Now you're talking some sense. Michael Kepler wrote: >King Crimson is a bitch I just thought this bore repeating because it's maybe the funniest thing I've seen on this digest. Andy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 01:16:03 -0400 From: Ted White Subject: Re: Odd Time Sigs by the Old, Gray, and Sometimes Deceased Barry Stock plugs jazz composer/drummer George Russell: "George (old, gray, still breathing) Russell's 'Jazz in the Space Age' features a recurring drums 'n bass motif in 5/2, recorded in May 1960. Also contains head to head Bill Evans / Paul Motian piano duets in opposing scales. Available on GRP / Chessmates. His 'The Jazz Workshop' from 1956 also contains rhythmic and harmonic elements 10-15 years head of their time. "George Russell is the creator and author of 'The Lydian Theory of Chromatic Tonal Organization,' a theory often mentioned as having held great sway over the minds of the giants of modal jazz." I second Barry's recommendation of early George Russell, but must point out that it was Paul *Bley* who dueted with Bill Evans. Brilliantly improvised music. For significantly more on this period in Russell's music and Russell himself, I immodestly refer you to my own website, specifically http://www.holeintheweb.com/drp/drpgr.htm which covers both albums mentioned above, and puts them in context. --TW (Dr P) dc-et #6 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 02:06:38 -0500 (CDT) From: TheMincer at webtv dot net (Ric Wilson) Subject: FraKcturing Fripp... Hi E.T.Readers, How I do enjoy reading almost every E.T. sent down, sometimes they make my day! But there is one big question that may need to be asked...It seems that everyone, (or almost everyone),are hung up on trying to figure out the psyche,dissect the brain and innerworks of Robert Fripp. This poor guy has had more mental autopsies while living than most any looney walking around! While I too am intrigued by his amazing brain, and his complex thoughts (or are they?), I gave up a long time ago tying to decipher this guy! Hell, I have enough trouble with my own mind! So, I'm content with just letting him keep doing what he does best, PLAY(along with being a Raging Heartless C.E.O.). Sorry, I left out Venal. From 1969's release,to the present, he continues to work with the most Professional musicians he can put his mitts on, and King Crimson is still GREAT! I think Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart,God Bless Him) said it best on the back of the "Spotlight Kid" LP, by saying: "The Stars Are Matter,We Are Matter, But It Doesn't Matter". Love you all, Ricus Spaceus.... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 03:19:18 -0400 From: Johnnyroman Subject: Hardest KC song to play Can we have a big vote / poll thing on what is in everyone's opinons, the most difficult KC song to play? And as for the non-musicians, perhaps they can vote (if they wish) according to the hardest to sing? or could their be a seperate vote for each instrument? Example: Which KC song is the hardest to play, in your opinion for: guitar: bass/stick/touch guitar: drums: vocal: [ Have a poll by all means, but please do it via private email, not ET. Then perhaps report the results to ET. Thanks -- Toby ] yadayadayaddada yada yad yad yadad you get the idea. Just a thought. mike http://mp3.com/phoenixdown http://mp3.com/duophone http://pulsate.org/dusk http://finalinferno.tripod.com (perhaps this is too much?) ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #712 ********************************