Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #705 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 705 Sunday, 2 July 2000 Today's Topics: GIG BIZ:ticket yes and herbie hancock Odd times. Re: The construKction of TCOL Girls love Crimson too! CC#11 Moles Club: first or second set? Follow-Follow Up..... ALL RECENT CRIMSON CONCERTS ON CD KC live in MexicoCity - before this is a dead thread ProzaKc coda Archeological Dig WHAT THE HELL?!??! Concerns New KC list in portuguese belew interview US opening act Re: a french woman told me Twenty-four Bits? Crimson CriticKism! ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 00:06:40 +0100 From: Simon Calkin Subject: GIG BIZ:ticket Dear all The pub to congregate in pre-Shep Empire is the Bushranger on Goldhawk Road (2 mins walk from the gig). Anyone need a ticket? I have one up for grabs (at face value,naturally). 1800 hours is the time. See you all. Simon Calkin Support Services,News Resources * Work: 0208 576 0910 * Fax: 0208 749 7853 * Room 4252 TV Centre, Wood Lane, London, W12 7RJ > * mailto:simon dot calkin at bbc dot co dot uk > * http://www.bbcresources.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:16:48 EDT From: "Jason Mullinax" Subject: yes and herbie hancock hi, i've been reading elephant talk for a while and this is my first post. i know that this doesn't really have much to do with crimson but i have a question that i thought some of the ETer's could answer. has anyone noticed the similarities between herbie hancock's sleeping giant and yes's ritual? i listened to them both back to back a few days ago and i heard some themes running throughout. i'm not exactly sure what the years are on both releases but i was interested to know which came first? please respond private e-mail. thanks, pilesar ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:35:20 -0400 From: "Brian O'Connell" Subject: Odd times. Tap your foot, you'll be able to tell when it comes back around. Some examples in the popular repertoire: 1) Money (Pink Floyd)= 7/4 2) Salisbury Hill (Peter Gabriel)= 7/4 3) Living in the Past (Jethro Tull)= 5/4 4) One time (KC)= 6/4, not an odd time, but what the heck. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 00:42:31 +0400 From: "Iscander the Aquarius" Subject: Re: The construKction of TCOL Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:24:28 -0500 From: "Grant Colburn" Subject: Re: more TCOL-ing >For me these are some of my >favorite songs that have been written with Belew singing. Too often the >songs sound like Belew music arranged by King Crimson on earlier releases, >especially Thrak and TOAPP. I'm happy to say that to me these sound like >actual King Crimson songs! Huh,you don't seem to like "Belew music" THAT much :) >I thought Thrak was way too >accessible and straight (and as opposed to TCOL) way too derivitave of >their past. It was like "King Crimson Lite," mostly in 4/4 and fairly >unadventurous. TCOL is WAY more complex, challenging and technical. All >good IMOP! So,good song is a 7/8-5/4-17/16 song.Ah,THAT'S what was all about :) I used to think that MUSIC AND LYRICS AND THEIR INTERCONNECTION makes a song,not a complex rythmic pattern.I was wrong ? Oh my :))) ... Grant,when you listen to KC,do you close your eyes and relax,or concentrate and keep on countin' odd beats all CD long? >For me its the songs of TCOL which are the most forward looking pieces on >the album. I think they are a clearer idea of where KC is headed than the >instrumentals. Well,maybe.But it's a fact that ,for example,Into the Frying Pan(one of your favs :) is a derivative of an INSTRUMENTAL "ProjeKction"(or ,at least, its' main idea had been used ).And vocals were not meant to be there from the very beginning,I guess...And if you don't fall asleep while listening "The world's my..." Is THIS where KC is headed ? To the one-chord-many-meters songs? No music there,man.Admit it :) The only musical part of it is Fripp's piano-sound solo. >Whether you like it or not music often IS mathematical. That doesn't make >it "not music" in my book. Music is based on numerical rhythms, chords with >numerical numbers, pitches set with specific numerical frequencies etc. >etc... I know it a BIT too well :) >>Anyone can invent as many songs as you wish >>based on this composing technology :) >Let's see you try, smart guy! :-) Well,let's try this one: you play it by thirds up; I will play it fifths down.And,of course,let's choose 5/4 for this brand new song.It's gonna be great(because we use odd meter-a sign of a great song )...Together we'll make a hell of a great band... :)))))) And don't forget,that when our band falls into creative crise,we always can use random numbers generator :))) WE SHALL OVERCOME :)> >Lack of ideas,guys? KC, I can send you tons of my melodies to jam on! Puleeeze! Having delusions of grandeur, are we? You really think you could write better King Crimson songs than King Crimson can? No. It just seems to me that KC is kinda low on musical ideas.They can take one of my ones,and jam with it and jam on it and into it until it's Crimson enough :) It's almost 21st century! Why can't there be a virtual band member ;D ? By the way,can you put it clearly what do you mean when you say "King Crimson song" ? I think Markus was right(to the certain degree) that this is NOT KC anymore.The main concept of the band has transformed into "ProjeKct n" (n:integer).Remember this-'when there is music that only KC can play then there appears KC" or something? Today there is music that only PROJEKCTs can play.Let they play it by THEMSELVES,and NOT KC ! >>Adrian-YOU write the songs in KC ! How could you let this happen ? "The >>world's my..." -do YOU like this song? >YES! I DEFINITELY DO! In fact its one of my favorite songs on the disk. And >for that matter, I'm SURE that Belew likes it as well! I wonder,is Belew still a fan of Beatles :) ? >Its always odd to me that people seem to think that if they like an artist, >that the artists MUST share the fan's taste in music. God bless you...If Mr.Fripp begins to listen Dream Theater,Massive Attack,Tiamat and U2(some of my favs)-GOD only knows what could happen to our King Crimson THEN :))))))))))))) GOD BLESS YOU ALL(I don't believe on God but ,still,you might do ;-) ------------------ A\\ www.iscander.com www.iscander.agava.ru ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:16:07 EDT From: "Stephanie Coni" Subject: Girls love Crimson too! I'm a 27-year-old piano teacher from New England and the first King Crimson I ever heard was Discipline, back in '93. I've been an addict and admirer ever since. It's really refreshing to listen to a band thats older than I am that thrives on it's own evolution and growth. The ConstruKction of Light is a fantastic Crimson release with fresh ideas that show talent and inspiration. Its really too bad that all the basement dwelling , bearded and be-spectacled fogies insist it would be better to hang out in the stale old court trying to relive their youth through a memory. Theres so much more to appreciate when you expand your horizons. Eagerly awaiting the U.S. tour, KiraVMoon P.S. Dangling genitalia is not a pre-requisite for being a crimhead. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 11:37:45 +0200 From: Roderich von Detten Subject: CC#11 Moles Club: first or second set? good evening hippies, i'm just wondering about a small question that occured to me while simultaneously reading the scrapbook to "the essential krimson"- boxset and listening to the new CC#11 Moles Club release: i remember a statement (was it by mr fripp himself?) that the Moles Club appearance on april 30 1981 (documented on the CC#11-release) is the immediate follower of the central park gig on 1st of july 1974 (CC#10) for our band. as mr fripp says in his journal for may, the 1st (consult the scrapbook), there have been two sets at Moles Club on april the 30th, the first being "poor", the second being much stronger in comparison. so if it is true that the CC-moles-appearence is the direct successor of the central park-appearance, we should have got the "poor" performance with our CC #11-disc. since i am very enthusiastic about CC#10-release (and i think EXACTLY this is why i joined the club, taking part in some of the crucial moments of the band's development) of what seems to sound like a very strong performance, i wonder how the even "stronger" set should sound like! is there anybody out there who can shed a light upon this? best wishes roderich ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 08:12:43 EDT From: PR1955 at aol dot com Subject: Follow-Follow Up..... This will be my last entry on Moles CD..... First to "Josh Chasin" ....I agree with yiu whole heartedly....You hit the nail on the head. I could not have said it better... And onto Kathy O. ( Oh What????).... I do not Whine....I was merely stating an opinion as many others have on the quality issue of this release and it seems that many agree...That is what a forum such as this is for. Freedom to state the obvious.But as you can see because we are in it for the duration we will take the good with the bad. As I said it's still Crim and that's what really counts....Would'nt you agree. So in the words of Austin Powers...."Kathy O behave"... And so this ends another chapter of KC.... Hey people---The more I play TKoL the more I love it. I sails with a roar and yet there is a gentle quality to it that shows that 4 guys with great musical talent can come up with sounds that make you feel and think. Hey Crim----I see the light>>>>>> Peace to all...Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 14:39:27 +0200 From: izyrp at odn dot de Subject: ALL RECENT CRIMSON CONCERTS ON CD To everyone still unaware of the fact,that they can now pre-order a CD containing any concert from the recent King Crimson Tour, you can do it on "www.KingCrimsonTV".How about a "2000 Tour Box" with all the concerts? Just go there and pre-order your copy.If this not good news, then tell me what is! Zbig ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 14:53:42 +0200 From: Roderich von Detten Subject: KC live in MexicoCity - before this is a dead thread another good evening hippies, sorry for being here a second time, but i'll keep it short. since my several attempts to bring the krimson 1996 mexico city concert wma-file into a wav-format failed, and since the files are no longer available via the NET, i will take this last chance to get a copy of the gig. and i will do it in german, if you allow: hallo allerseits! - gibt es irgendjemanden unter euch, der das mexico city - konzert in "gebrannter" form besitzt und mich mit einer kassetten- oder cd-r-kopie versorgen koennte? die auslagen werden selbstverstaendlich ersetzt. ueber private kontaktaufnahme via mail wuerde ich mich sehr freuen.! viele gruesse und besten dank roderich ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 10:28:05 EDT From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com Subject: ProzaKc coda A few ETs ago, someone asked what Adrian was saying at the end of "ProzaKc Blues." Unless I missed something, no one has responded, so here it is: Oh, don't worry Plenty to go around Pass that bottle over here, I'll sing you a real song! Buh buh bubbuh, buh buh, bubbuh boo boo... All right. The "Pass that bottle" line is borrowed from Jimi Hendrix's "My Friend" (Jimi actually says "Y'all pass me that bottle, and I'll sing y'all a real song"). Biffy the Elephant Shrew http://www.mp3.com/michaelpdawson ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:17:39 -0400 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: Archeological Dig Art Cohen chastizes me in ET 704 thusly: >>>>>>>>>A reader from New York writes: >Historical value? This is a rock'n'roll band, folks, not the magna >freaking carta. Shall we get over ourselves just a tad? Surely no one who looks on KC as just another rock band has shelled out the $96 (or equivalent) to join the Club? The Club is, by its very nature, aimed at the obsessive fans (if not fanboys), and by our standards, yes, this is a historical concert. If that's not your bag, baby, go back to listening to the official retail releases and leave us to our archaology, OK?>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well Art, old bean, as I said in that post, on balance I LOVE the Collector's Club. And I will continue to love the club on the whole on merit, and I will continue to dislike certain club releases if indeed I do find myself disliking them. Two seemingly paradoxical conditions existing simultaneously. Can I explain why? No. It just is, and you're going to have to live with it. Cheers. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 17:39:26 -0400 From: Daniel Pepper Subject: WHAT THE HELL?!??! HELLO..i just went to the BootlegTV site..i guess i'm a total jackass because I never realized the site had good quality recordings of recent Crimson concerts..LOL..i don't know where the hell i was!! this stuff is amazing! the Nashville shows are..umm...CRIMSON..i feel a bit stupid knowing that this stuff has been in front of me since May..lol..I had a bit of difficulty signing up on the site..but once I got through, I WAS AMAZED! GOT TO THIS SITE! LOL..BYE=) ------------------------------ Date: Sat Jul 01 19:59:46 2000 From: FOOLIOX2 at aol dot com Subject: Concerns Dear ET moderators and readers, I have been disturbed by Robert Fripp's behavior towards older King Crimson material. It seems as though he has no longer has any interest in playing classic Crimson material anymore. When I say classic, I am referring to timeless albums such as In the Court of the Crimson King, Lizard, Islands, In the Wake of Poseidon, Starless and Bible Black, Larks Tongues in Aspic, or Red(except for the title track). Now that this has been addressed, let us look at some possible ideas of why Mr. Fripp has refused to play older material. Could it be that he doesn't want to pay royalty monies to older members? He plays "Red" and nothing else. Why? He wrote it himself! No royalties have to be paid! Could he possibly want to keep King Crimson modern instead of an old dinosaur? Mr. Fripp once said to Vic Garabini (Guitar World July 1995) that "One is governed by one's future at least to the same extent as one's past." Well if that hold true, then shouldn't the older Crimson material be played in order to pay homage to it? I would think so! So therefore, my fellow Crimsonites, I urge you to request Mr. Fripp to play classic Crimson material! Sincerely, Daniel T. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:31:25 -0300 From: "Joe" Subject: New KC list in portuguese Hi there! I'd just like to announce a new King Crimson discussion list in portuguese. Brazilian and portuguese ETers out there, if you are interested, send an e-mail to kingcrimson-subscribe at egroups dot com or visit the home page at: http://www.egroups.com/group/kingcrimson Thanks Joe ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 22:02:04 -0300 From: "carlos henrique moller" Subject: belew interview hi friends ! don't know if it's old news or not, but there's a belew interview on www.launch.com that is very interesting. check that out ! carlos h moller brazil ps: just for the records: i've been listening to TCOL since the end of May and i love it more each day ! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:48:15 -0400 From: "T.J. Mathews" Subject: US opening act I think the Crim should have a sharp refreshing sound board testing opening act for the US leg of the tour. And I'm going out on a well worn limb of the locust tree of my own front yard to suggest that band be - Uz Jsme Doma. To quote one review: If the bandname Uz Jsme Doma sounds like a riddle worth solving, just wait till you hear their music. This schizophrenic band from the former Czech Republic moves effortlessly from avant-garde dark piano solos to hyperspeed ska to operatic arias to punk rock to a wacky hybrid of all of the above. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 22:00:34 -0400 From: "T.J. Mathews" Subject: Re: a french woman told me christian skina > ...The French public (on the whole) were busy doing something else, talking > between themselves for instance. Most of the folks kept chatting during the > soundscapes or went to the bar to fetch some refreshments. A woman behind I retort: I think Christian has missed something. At US soundscapes Robert has told audiences that while the music plays the audience should feel free to chat, sleep, read, walk around and do whatever pleases them. I've seen some people lying down on the stage near him. I myself once played solo hacky sack in a space behind the bleacher like seats. At that Philadelphia show there was a baby making noise and I thought it added something to what was happening. The parents felt badly and shuffled it away. So I think he wants that noise that bothers you so much. And what are we doing about Robert's point that soundscapes has yet to be fully explored? Who else is doing soundscapes on our ever shrinking little blue marble? tj dc-et #2 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 01:41:54 PDT From: "Michael Irish" Subject: Twenty-four Bits? I bought the 24-bit remaster of Lizard last Friday. Although it's generally held in high-regard here on ET, some of the "critic" reviews I've read online are dismissive. For myself, I find Lizard an album of continuing delight and new revelation, with a higher degree of musical depth in comparison to the following Islands; but, in actuality, there is no appreciable difference in the new Lizard remaster to the 1989 Robert Fripp/Tony Arnold remaster, which is labeled "The Definitive Edition," is there? As is the case with the other remaster I have, "Court," the gatefold and liner notes insert are of the highest quality. Robert is actually smiling in a number of the photos included here! If anybody within easy mailing distance would want a free copy of the '89 Lizard, I'd be happy to mail it to you. I'm in the pro-Moles Club camp, in part because of the historical importance of this concert which ushered in the brilliant Discipline-Beat-Perfect Pair trilogy. Given the dark red coloring of the Moles booklet, the only place Tony Levin had room to sign, following his June 24th Waters of Eden concert, was atop his head. Speaking of concerts, the June 27th performance here by the Who was one of the happiest experience of my musical life. As far as the 11 KCCC albums released so far, I love them all: I'd say my favorites to date are Central Park, Live at Summit Studios, The Roar of P4, Live at Cap D'Agde, and Jacksonville. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 18:55:38 +1000 From: "Tony Greig" Subject: Crimson CriticKism! Hello Crimophiles, I have to comment here or else! In ET 703, Grant Colburn writes, > For me these are some of my > favorite songs that have been written with Belew singing. Too often the > songs sound like Belew music arranged by King Crimson on earlier releases, > especially Thrak and TOAPP. I'm happy to say that to me these sound like > actual King Crimson songs! It all sounds like Crimson songs to me! The reality is, Belew does influence the songs (vocal songs) and Fripp influences the instrumentals, at least this is what I have read over the years! You can actually hear that as well if you are familiar with both of these musicians musical history etc! They and other members of the band also collaborate on the songs and instrumentals at times. It does not sound any different to me on TCOL, but I do not know of the actual song or instrumental influences on this recording, although, you can tell in a way who could have influenced each piece! > Most of those songs sound > like Belew songs (like I stated above). I thought Thrak was way too > accessible and straight (and as opposed to TCOL) way too derivitave of > their past. It was like "King Crimson Lite," mostly in 4/4 and fairly > unadventurous. TCOL is WAY more complex, challenging and technical. All > good IMOP! Thrak, way too accessible? You must go for the more technical side of music Grant, and that is fine, (I do too at times, although not for long, as it can contain less melody and get boring quickly). I do like intricate, complex playing and arrangements and have been criticised for having too much of this style of music in my collection. Mostly in 4/4? so what should Crimson play, only complex music? Fairly unadventurous? HMMMMMM!!!!!! King Crimson Lite? Man, Thrak is a monster, leviathan, beast and whatever other huge word you want to attach to it! Thrak is no doubt the heaviest Crimson recording since Larks Tongue in Aspic and Red. The accessibility of the material on Thrak is what makes it a great album IMHO! ( also the lineup of course!) After all, how many great musical pieces have a more accessible timing, chords and melodies etc? The more complex a piece of music, the more chance it will lose it's melody and accessibility. You are right in that TCOL is WAY more complex, challenging and technical, but that is why I am still unsure of this album being an accessible effort for my liking! It appears to contain the most amount of music teetering on the boring side of things, than any other Crimson studio offering in their entire career, as far as I am concerned! > Whether you like it or not music often IS mathematical. That doesn't make > it "not music" in my book. Music is based on numerical rhythms, chords with > numerical numbers, pitches set with specific numerical frequencies etc. > etc... Music can be mathematical, but not all music is and sure, that does not mean it is not music, but as I stated before, the more complex the maths, the more it is not as readily accessible to many an ear of melody! (or equation!) From English Dictionary: The Equation of Light, (Astronomy) The allowance made in determining the position of a heavenly body, for the time occcupied in the transmission of it's light to the eye of the observer. Just a few comments Grant, I enjoy yours and also other ETer's raves (well, nearly all of them) and I have reached the dreaded conclusion (hopefully in years to come, I will be called a hypocrite regarding comments on TCOL), but at this moment, I do not like the album overall! A big disappointment for me personally, but that is fine, as Crimson have created some of the most enjoyable music ever to hit me and they continue to influence me. I agree with Jim Bailey and his thoughts on TCOL (ET 703), about the interlocking guitars and also TCOL songs not having what it takes etc. The reality that appears in my passion for certain music, is both similar and different from others and that is why it is good to have ET. Cheers, Tony Greig. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #705 ********************************