From toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Thu Jun 18 09:16:35 1992 Date: Fri, 11 Oct 91 16:45:06 BST Subject: Discipline #7 From: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk discipline, Number 7 Friday, 11 October 1991 Today's Topics: Re: discipline #6 KC The Joy Luck Club Re: "Islands" plus Trivia questions discipline #6 _Islands_ Goldmine Reviews LOCG The music! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1991 20:07:35 EDT From: Mark Crimson Friedman Subject: Re: discipline #6 Hola hombres: "Klone Crimson" here with a lot of "talk, talk, it's only talk" goodies for you! Here are a bunch of replies from last issue, plus the info from "Reflex" magazine that I've been promising for ages... ]From: malcolm%yuba at wrs dot uucp (Malcolm Humes) ]Subject: Torn/Karn/Bruford/Levin ] ]I'm still pretty amused to recall seeing Tony Levin listed in the ]credits of a Paul Simon lp, I think the one with "50 ways to leave ]your lover". He worked with Simon for a while. As a matter of fact, he was the bass player in Simon's movie "One Trick Pony". Also interesting is that Simon's character in the movie was named "Levin"... ]I think he did a lot of session work for years before ]hooking up with Gabriel and Fripp. *Tons* of session work. And he still does it. I'm always amused how Tony doesn't "appear courtesy of --" anybody! He's his own man, and get's paid well for it... ]From what I recall Tony listens mostly ]to classical music, which I thought was a little curious given the kinds ]of things he plays. Peter Gabriel shared his blame of "corrupting Tony" with King Crimson in a biography. Gabriel said Tony was into classical and jazz when he first met him. He also said he looked like a lumberjack! :-) ]Does anyone recall Tony playing anything other than the Chapman Stick with ]Crimson? I seem to recall that in concert he also played a little bit of ]synth or something... seems like I recall him at something like a keyboard ]with some footpedals. Yeah, he played a lot of keyboard on 3oaPP. I think it worked out rather well. Oh, and of course he played bass, too, in addition to backing vocals: it's awesome (by the true meaning of the word) to see him handle all four tasks during "Dig Me" on the 3oaPP video! ]From: wayne at inmet dot camb dot inmet dot com ]Subject: Robert Fripp/ King Crimson ] ]Here's what I know about the Robert Fripp situation: ] ]In a Downbeat interview a couple of months ago the following statements were ]made either by Fripp or the author of the article: ] ]1) A new Crimson box set has been (is being) remastered and produced by ] Fripp which will contain previously unreleased material, outtakes, etc. ] ]2) Sunday All Over the World was referred to by Fripp in terms that ] made it sound like a VERY part time committment, to me. ] ]3) At the end of the article, the author stated that there are strong rumours ] that Fripp is about to form, and I THINK he used these words, 'a new ] version of King Crimson'. ] ]Now you know what I know. If anyone can add any factual (or seemingly factual) ]info to this, I'm sure we would all be interested. Lot's of my info came from a "Reflex" magazine interview: 4) Fripp mentioned he was leaving the Crafties and "returning to public life as a musician". 5) He mentioned missing "playing with a rocking drummer and Tony Levin". (tony Tony TONEEEEEY!!!! :-) On National Public Radio: 6) Fripp announced he'd be forming a new band [in September...or was it August?] and probably recording a new album soon thereafter. On MTV Music News (for what it's worth! :-) 7) Fripp announced that there would most likely be a new King Crimson by the end of the year. (That was earlier in 1991, though. However, a friend has this on videotape: not your average rumour!) In "CD Review": 8) Mention of a "Compact Fripp" to be released sometime next year. (nothing about new Crimso here, but nice to know...) 9) More importantly, it was reported that Fripp would release a new studio album by the end of the year. Whether this is Crimso or not, I dunno... On top of that, we have the new King Crimson boxed set to be released... tomorrow! My brother and I say you can always tell when Fripp needs money: remastered this, definitive that... :-) Does anyone have the Definitive Edition of Discipline? I'm trying to find the dance mix of "Elephant Talk" on CD. I've got the radio promo vinyl version, but want it in a more convenient form! I also want "I Advance Masked" on CD! Waaaaaahhhhh!!! ]From: Toby Howard ]Subject: Videos ] ]Can anyone help me obtain either of the 2 KC Videos -- they don't seem to ]be available here in the UK. I need VHS PAL. The VHS versions are *supposed* to be availiable through Passport (I think) according to the latest Blockbuster Video logs. However, a friend of mine had them both on order for *ages* and the never came in... Both videos seem popular at bootl...I mean, record fairs around here. I got my 'not entirely legal' copies. Good stuff... ]But anyway, would someone like to post a list of tracks on them, with a ]review? I'll try to fetch a track list. As for reviews, the thing that sticks out most in mind is that on the 3oaPP concert, "Aspic III" and "Discipline" were both rather sloppy... So much for last issue, and now for some new stuff... A while back someone was commenting on Crimso version preferences. I (obviously) personally prefer the '80s version of the group. I can't think of a better band in history! I was so impressed the first time I heard them. Eventually it crept into my own composing, so much so that a friend eventually dubbed my "Klone Crimson". Well, the name stuck, and I don't particularly mind! :-) I cannot find Tony Levin's book "Road Shows" (or "Road Photos", since both the "Absent Lovers" bootl...errr, 'unofficial live album' and the ABWH list them under different titles). Is it out of print already? Is it published under a pseudonym? That's one book I *gotta* have... Speaking of bootl...'unofficial live albums', what all do you people have out there? I have most everything from the '80s, including several videos. Neat stuff. Plus I have the "Elephant Talk" dance mix mentioned above, plus Belew's live versions of "Elephant Talk", "Heatbeat", and "3oaPP" (which is particularly interesting: it's in 7 the whole way through!). One Crimso rumour I'd like to hear: "Robert Fripp has announced today that he will be forming the 1990's version of King Crimson with the San Francisco funk punk trio known as Primus. Fripp will join the group and tour for six months, recording a live album. `Bill & Tony', consisting of the duet of former Crimso members Bruford and Levin, will open for each show..." Well, if wishes were fishes... I'd open an aquarium! - Mark "Klone Crimson" Friedman +----====>>>))) Mark Friedman is friedman at cis dot ohio-state dot edu (((<<<====----+ | "There is nothing former | (Disclaimer : the opposite of Datclaimer) | | about King Crimson." | "I used to have a photgraphic memory | | - Robert Fripp, 5/11/90 | but it was never developed..." | > -.---.----..-.---.----..-.---.----..-.---.----..-.---.----..-.---.----.. < [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: tmadson at pnet51 dot orb dot mn dot org (Todd Madson) Newsgroups: rec.music.misc Subject: Re: Crimso Date: 3 Oct 91 14:45:07 GMT Organization: People-Net [pnet51], Minneapolis, MN. In a recent Robert Fripp interview in Guitar World magazine, he was musing over what to add: He definetely wanted to add the first album, since it was so groundbreaking when it was first released. He admitted that Crimson always had good ideas, most of which were inadequately executed. He felt that (to use an example) the guitar solo to "A Sailors' Tale" was recorded after 12 hours of trying and felt wretched. He was debating whether to include "Lark's Tongues" in there as well. He felt "Larks.." was a remarkable album, yet at the time of the recording they really didn't have the chops to perform it the way it should have been. So he was mulling that one over. "Red" was another possibility for inclusion. This was just before he went in to work on the box-set project. UUCP: {amdahl!bungia, crash}!orbit!pnet51!tmadson ARPA: crash!orbit!pnet51!tmadson at nosc dot mil INET: tmadson at pnet51 dot orb dot mn dot org [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1991 21:52:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Patrick Arnold Subject: The Joy Luck Club This is a story about the Moon Lady. Yes, this is a submission for Discipline. We can't drool over Fripp's next 'ism' without some other forms of related entertainment, lest we become reductionist, self-referential and boring. And besides, I'm frustrated, because the CD Warehouse doesn't yet have the "Essential King Crimson: Frame by Frame" boxed set yet and they say they won't have it until Friday. I was reading The Joy Luck Club the other day...no it was last spring, but anyway, one chapter struck me as particularly interesting. The book is composed of stories about mothers and their daughters in China and America, contrasting their lives, the Chinese values integrating (or not) with American culture. One story is about Ying Ying St. Clair's childhood experience with the Moon Lady. Apologies if it is too long for some people's tastes or attention spans, but it is neato reading. Excerpts follow. -------- "For all these years I kept my true nature hidden, running along like a small shadow so nobody could catch me. And because I moved so secretly now my daughter does not see me. "And I want to tell her this: We are lost, she and I, unseen and not seeing, unheard and not hearing, unknown by others. "Yet today I can remember a time when I ran and shouted, when I could not stand still. It is my earliest recollection: telling the Moon Lady my secret wish. And because I forgot what I wished for, that memory remained hidden from me all these years. "But now I remember that wish, and I can recall the details of that entire day, as clearly as I see my daughter and the foolishness of her life. "I tugged on Amah's sleeve and asked: 'Who is the Moon Lady?' "'Chang-o. She lives on the moon and today is the only day you can see her and have a secret wish fulfilled.' "'What is a secret wish?' "'It is what you want but cannot ask,' said Amah. "'Why can't I ask?' "'This is because...because if you ask it...it is no longer a wish but a selfish desire,' said Amah. 'Haven't I taught you--that it is wrong to think of your own needs? A girl can never ask, only listen.' "'Then how will the Moon Lady know my wish?' "Ai! You ask too much already! You can ask her because she is not a normal person.' "...after we finished our treat it grew quiet and once again I became restless. Suddenly I saw a dragonfly with a large crimson body and transparent wings. I leapt off the bench and ran to chase it, and my half-sisters followed me, jumping and thrusting their hands as it flew away. "My mother smiled and walked over to me. She smoothed some of my wayward hairs back in place and tucked them into my coiled braid. 'A boy can run and chase dragonflies, because that is his nature,' she said. 'But a girl should stand still. If you are still for a very long time, a dragonfly will no longer see you. Then it will come up to you and hide in the comfort of your shadow.' "Standing perfectly still like that, I discovered my shadow. I shrieked with delight at my shadow's own cleverness. I loved my shadow, this dark side of me that had my same restless nature. "...I stayed, as if caught in a good dream. And sure enough, I turned around and a sullen woman was now squatting in front of the bucket of fish. I watched as she took out a sharp, thin knife and began to slice open the fish bellies, pulling out the red slippery insides and throwing them over her shoulder into the lake. I saw her scrape off the fish scales, which flew into the air like shards of glass. [more gross stuff deleted] "It was not until then, too late, that I saw my new clothes--and the spots of blood, flecks of fish scales, bits of feather and mud. What a strange mind I had! In my panic, in hearing waking voices...I quickly dipped my hands in the bowl of turtle's blood and smeared this on my sleeves, and on the front of my pants and jacket. And this is what I truly thought: that I could cover these spots by painting my clothes crimson red, and that if I stood perfectly still no one would notice this change. "This is how Amah found me: an apparition covered with blood. I can still hear her voice, screaming in terror, running over to see what pieces of my body were missing... "The water had turned a deep golden color, and then red, purple, and finally black. The sky had darkened and red lantern lights started to glow all over the lake. "On the dock, with the bright moon behind me, I once again saw my shadow. It was shorter this time, shrunken and wild-looking. We ran together over to some bushes along a walkway and hid. In this hiding place I could hear people talking as they walked by. I could hear frogs and crickets. And then--flutes and tinkling cymbals, a sounding gong and drums! "I looked through the branches of the bushes and in front I could see a crowd of people and, above them, a stage holding up the moon. A young man burst out from the side of the stage and told the crowd, 'And now the Moon Lady will come to tell her sad tale to you, in a shadow play, classically sung.' "The Moon Lady! I thought, and the very sound of those magic words made me forget my troubles. I heard more cymbals and gongs and then a shadow of a woman appeared against the moon. Her hair was undone and she was combing it. She began to speak. Such a sweet, wailing voice! "'My fate and my penance,' she began to lament, pulling her long fingers through her hair, 'to live here on the moon, while my husband lives on the sun. So that each day and each night, we pass each other, never seeing one another, except this one evening, the night of the mid-autumn moon.' "The crowd moved closer. The Moon Lady plucked her lute and began her singing tale. "On the other side of the moon I saw the silhouette of a man appear. The Moon Lady held her arms out to embrace him--'O! Hou Yi, my husband, Master Archer of the Skies!' she sang. But her husband did not seem to notice her. He was gazing at the sky. And as the sky grew brighter, his mouth began to open wide--in horror or delight, I could not tell. "The Moon Lady clutched her throat and fell into a heap, crying, 'The drought of ten suns in the eastern sky!' And just as she sang this, the Master Archer pointed his magic arrows and shot down nine suns which burst open with blood. 'Sinking into a simmering sea!' she sang happily, and I could hear these suns sizzling and crackling in death. "And now a fairy--the Queen Mother of the Western Skies!--was flying toward the Master Archer. She opened a box and held up a glowing ball--no not a baby sun but a magic peach, the peach of everlasting life! I could see the Moon Lady pretending to be busy with her embroidery, but she was watching her husband. She saw him hide the peach in a box. And then the Master Archer raised his bow and vowed to fast for one year to show he had the patience to live forever. And after he ran off, the Moon Lady wasted not one moment to find the peach and eat it! "As soon as she tasted it, she began to rise, then fly--not like the Queen Mother--but like a dragonfly with broken wings. 'Flung from this earth by my own wantonness!' she cried just as her husband dashed home, shouting, 'Theif! Life-stealing wife!' He picked up his bow, aimed an arrow at his wife and--with the rumblings of a gong, the sky went black. "Wyah! Wyah! The sad lute music began again as the sky on the stage lightened. And there stood the poor lady against a moon as bright as the sun. He hair was now so long it swept the floor, wiping up her tears. An eternity had passed since she last saw her husband, for this was her fate: to stay lost on the moon, forever seeking her own selfish wishes. "'For woman is yin,' she cried sadly, 'the darkness within, where untempered passions lie. And man is yang, bright truth lighting our minds.' "At the end of her singing tale, I was crying, shaking with despair. Even though I did not understand her entire story, I understood her grief. In one small moment, we had lost the world, and there was no way to get it back. 'I have a wish! I have one!' I shouted as I ran forward in my bare feet. I kept running toward the moon to tell the Moon Lady what I wanted, because now I knew what my wish was. I darted fast as a lizard behind the stage, to the other side of the moon. I saw her, standing still for a moment. 'I have a wish,' I said in a whisper, and still she did not hear me. So I walked closer yet, until I could see the face of the Moon Lady, shrunken cheeks, a broad oily nose, large glaring teeth, and red-stained eyes. A face so tired that she wearily pulled off her hair, her long gown fell from her shoulders. And as the secret wish fell from my lips, the Moon Lady looked at me and became a man. "...Now that I am old, moving every year closer to the end of my life, I also feel closer to the beginning. And I remember everything that happened that day because it has happened many times in my life. The same innocence, trust, and restlessness; the wonder, fear, and the loneliness. How I lost myself. "I remember all these things. And tonight...I also remember what I asked the Moon Lady so long ago. I wished to be found." -------- I find that there is a deep, mostly unexplored relationship between Crimson and the arts and literature. Direct examples include Todd Bowles' novel "The Sheltering Sky", Rembrandt's painting "The Night Watch", and so on. Somebody could write some really boring intellectual stuff about this. - Brian [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1991 13:21:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Patrick Arnold Subject: Re: "Islands" plus Trivia questions Of the studio/Live recordings, I place Islands about fifth in my list of favorites. First comes Discipline, then USA, Red and In the Court of the Crimson King. I generally like them all a lot, except Earthbound. I refuse to purchase Earthbound even used, torn or tattered--NB I have listened to a friend's copy several times and that's when I decided not to even tape it. Stupid trivia question (I don't know the answer, but the question is compelling, at least to me, which is why I added "stupid"): Has anybody noticed that the back cover title "Starless and Bible Black" on both old LPs and new CDs has the dots of the dotted i's raised typographically above the letters? What is the meaning? Fun trivia question (I know the answer, but I want somebody well versed in the answer to reply!): "Acknowledgement to D.T." and the title to "Starless and Bible Black; who is D.T. and where did the phrase "Starless and Bible Black" come from? Silly trivia related-question (I know there's an answer, I just forgot): What was the phrase Bill Bruford liked to use instead of "Starless and Bible Black"? - Brian [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 4 Oct 91 14:00:20 PDT From: walters at agar dot Metaphor dot com (Tim Walters) Subject: discipline #6 malcolm at wrs dot com sez: Does anyone recall Tony playing anything other than the Chapman Stick with Crimson? I seem to recall that in concert he also played a little bit of synth or something... seems like I recall him at something like a keyboard with some footpedals. He played plain ol' bass fairly often (on "Thela Hun Ginjeet" and "Sleepless", e.g.) Michael Hand opines: For years -- more than I like to think about -- I've been surprised at how people hate "Islands". Even die-hard KC fans (like me) usually hate that album. In a recent poll of KC album favorites, it came in dead last, with a single first-place vote: mine. (I tied it with "Larks' Tongues" and "Poseidon", I think.) I certainly don't hate it, but I do regard it as one of their weakest albums (only _Poseidon_ and _Earthbound_ score lower for me). Still, there's some very fun stuff on it. Don't y'all hear the motifs occurring early in "Formentera Lady," then getting worked out in a hard-core way later (between guitar and sax)? Ain't Fripp's choppy chord-work late in "Sailor's Tale" great? Yes to both. I admit that side 2 leaves a bit to be desired, and that "Ladies" is out of place, mood-wise, Also sexist as hell. And anyone who uses the phrase "marron-glaced fish bones" in a dumb rock song about sex is really beyond hope. and that the orchestral thing is kind of pretentious, but "Islands" is compelling (isn't it?) Only intermittently, for me. Toby inquireth: Can anyone help me obtain either of the 2 KC Videos -- they don't seem to be available here in the UK. I need VHS PAL. But anyway, would someone like to post a list of tracks on them, with a review? As you would expect from a band that was much better live than on vinyl, the videos are really good. I'll follow up with more details and a track listing when I can get home and check my audio copies. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: rawdon at cs dot wisc dot edu (Michael Rawdon) Subject: _Islands_ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 91 13:49:41 CDT Hopefully this is the right place to send submissions to the CK mailing list. I presume that I'm a member now, since I received this issue of the list. >From: e343mh at tamuts dot tamu dot edu (Michael Hand) >Subject: "Islands" >For years -- more than I like to think about -- I've been surprised >at how people hate "Islands". Even die-hard KC fans (like me) usually >hate that album. In a recent poll of KC album favorites, it came in >dead last, with a single first-place vote: mine. (I tied it with >"Larks' Tongues" and "Poseidon", I think.) I haven't heard all of their work (I'm missing _Three_Of_A_Perfect_Pair_, _Poseidon_ and _Lizard_), but _Islands_ is probably my favorite CK album, followed closely by _Red_ (then _Discipline_, then _Tongues_). >Don't y'all hear the motifs occurring early in "Formentera Lady," then >getting worked out in a hard-core way later (between guitar and sax)? The bass line is amazing, too. It's so simple, but it really carries a lot of the song. >Ain't Fripp's choppy chord-work late in "Sailor's Tale" great? I was blown away by the guitar work on that song when I first heard it. It was the best stuff I'd heard in years, and is probably still my favorite Fripp guitar in CK. >I admit that side 2 leaves a bit to be desired, and that "Ladies" is >out of place, mood-wise, and that the orchestral thing is kind of >pretentious, but "Islands" is compelling (isn't it?) Oh, the only song on the whole album I have any reservations about at all is "The Letters", which has that uncomfortable sax explosion part-way through. The vbocal parts are wonderful, though. The title track is unbelievable, I think. The arrangement, the trumpet parts toward the end... I can listen to it over and over. It's one of my favorite songs. I think the reason I like the track "Starless" on _Red_ is because it's very reminiscent of "Islands" (though Wetton crying out "Starless]and bible black" is pretty cool, too). I probably wouldn't have bothered much with CK beyond _Larks'_Tongues_ (which I find a somewhat overinflated album, and the CD mixing job is pretty poor, too, IMHO) if I hadn't bought _Islands_ on (if you'll pardon the pun) a lark. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 9 Oct 91 23:36:47 PDT From: "John M. Relph" Subject: Goldmine Reviews LOCG Eli Messinger informs us that Goldmine Vol. 17 #20 (Issue 292) "Goldmine Goes Guitars" contains a review of the new Robert Fripp & The League of Crafty Guitarists CD. If someone happens to see this could that person post it to Discipline? Peace, -- John [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: The music! Is anyone interested in swapping ideas about the music itself? Like the structure of tunes like "Discipline", for example. Bruford has a lot to say about this on his instructionla drum video, and Fripp is on too this too. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] To join this group or have your thoughts in the next issue, please send electronic mail to Toby Howard at the following address: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk The views expressed in discipline are those of the individual authors only.