Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #699 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 699 Friday, 23 June 2000 Today's Topics: usa Fripp's anti-bootleg policy vdrums on TCOL LTIA : Example is not proof Radical post: Kill KC!!! (just mindprojeKcting from the basement) Op Zop / Butterfly in China Re: Hendrix KC editions from Argentina John Wetton and Uriah Heep Touring Death Knell, Fetishizing & TCoL Re: Elephant Talk #698 (RE: Approaching Synthetica) centipede Progressive? Mastica TCoL once again Hendrix GIG REVIEW: CONEGLIANO VENETO - ITALY ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:07:19 EDT From: Obonzo at aol dot com Subject: usa Is "USA" available for purchase anymore? Vinyl, cd, cassette? I have a decent vinyl, but would love to have a CD! thanks!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 20:01:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Alfred Bello Subject: Fripp's anti-bootleg policy Hello ET people ! Today I received the KCCC # 11, live at Moles Club Bath CD. After listening to it I find that it is definetly a bootleg, REstored and REmastered and REwhatever, but it is still bootleg quality stuff (not mono, but not stereo either?????!!!...you know what I mean). The location however does hint at the quality... perhaps it was recorded from the Bath-room of the Moles Club in Bath (no offense made to the city of Bath, by the way). Oh Lord, was this REsubscription to the KCCC a good Idea? I find myself REwondering about it. One good news...there is NOT another version of 21st Century Schizoid Man on it. The only new thing about it is Theela Hun Ginjeet. End of line. Alf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 00:39:02 -0500 From: Jim & Karen Beckwith Subject: vdrums on TCOL Hullo, ladies and gents, Long time no post. After a couple of listenings to TCOL, a couple of first impressions to offer. (Assume the implied IMHO.) 1. I agree with those who have noted the lack of dynamic contrast on the album. The ear wearies a bit from the constant, glorious sonic assault without an occasional lull. 2. I think I've been able to isolate the problem that many ET'ers have with vdrums. I have no issue with Pat's technical ability, nor with the argument that the vdrums fit in with the identity of the current incarnation of KC. What I object to is the sheer uniformity of use across the album. Feel free to curse me for my expeKctations, but I see no parallel across the history of KC. New technologies in instrumentation have come and gone (e.g. the Mellotron), but nowhere do you see a new technological development used to such, erm, excess. It smacks of a fad, and unfortunately, it will eventually make the album sound dated. Certainly, of 11 tracks, one or two could have made use of acoustic drums? (Frying Pan would be my first choice.) An acoustic drum interlude or two could have contributed to the aforementioned lull in the proceedings. 3. Other than these two admittedly minor quibbles, I'm really enjoying the album. The sense of humor seems more evident on TCOL than ever before, both musically and lyrically. I've laughed out loud at least once each time I've listened. Finally, a recommendation for any jazz-oriented (or jazz-curious) KC fans: The Dave Holland Quintet. This group plays as tight as any I've ever heard, and they specialize in odd-meter grooves. Great musicians - worth a listen for anyone. JB np: Ray Anderson - Big Band Record ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:02:29 +0200 From: Valerie Le Goff et Mickael Vedrine Subject: LTIA : Example is not proof In ET697, James Dusewicz, > Proof of this can be seen by the inclusion of LTIA III on THREE OF A > PERFECT PAIR(1984). Additionally the ProjecKcts improvs have a striking > resemblence to the instrumental portions of that album too. > Any comments?? Sorry, but this is to much for the mathematician I am. An example is never a proof. So the inclusion of LTIA III in TOAPP only shows that one time LTIA foreboded a pause in KC history. As for the future of the current incarnation, I'll be careful not to presume anything. This is a far too complex problem. The recent declarations by Tony Levin (saying he would like to play with the band later this year) may let us hope for more KC after this tour, but once again nothing is sure. And perhaps Mr Fripp will really grow tired of touring, and more precisely of spending an awful time reading, thinking and writing about bootlegging ! Mickael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 13:28:35 +0200 From: Gnad Markus Subject: Radical post: Kill KC!!! (just mindprojeKcting from the basement) Hellofellofreaks - there! I'd like to catch up with the conversation started by James Dusewicz. It's a good observation made by him, but there's one point that points to the opposite: When LTIA I&II were released, it was the START of a new Crimson, and well, a Crimson, that lasted until now (if you keep in mind that Bruford was there until last year and that the Heavy sound still lasts and wasn't there before LTIA) - and not the END. Lark's Tongues is a theme that goes through this whole period from 1973 until 2000. But the "death knell cry theme" makes room for further speculations (at least, for me). From RF's diary we know that this tour isn't very joyous for him - venues, audience etc. I think if everything was perfect with that tour, they would have played Vienna and Linz - as P3 or so. Remember: They played when Jamie Muir injured himself, and he was INDEED an important part of the show. (This is nothing against Ade, besides.) So - the trouble, as I think, comes from the name KC. Touring with ProjeKcts was long, and they played a hundred concerts. They play a dozen there and then now, and let "things happen as they come". To me it sounds ProjeKcting was much more fun than Krimsoning again, and having to live with all that stuff like "you don't sound like Crimson", "you do that wrong, you do that wrong" - that wasn't so with ProjeKcting. Don't shoot me I'm only the thinking listener - but I think to get back much more joy of touring and musiKcing it would be better not to play as KC anymore, in this case play as PX and go on with ProjeKcting. I see it with myself: When TCOL came out, I was sweating, hungry for it. Not so with PX, although it's the same musicians. I wasn't that hungry for ProjeKcts, although it's the same musicians. To create that feeling that Fripp wants us to have - unexpecting anything, have "virgin" ears and stuff like that... kill the name KC. They would still continue and have more freedom. Markus Hey - I love KC! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 13:31:56 +0200 From: Gnad Markus Subject: Op Zop / Butterfly in China Wowie Zowie - hope you won't kill me for the other post! 1) I just like to hear your comments on that: I believe our beloved and well again Ade has never really recovered from his Zappa carreer. This I hear on Op Zop Too Wah. Stunning noise, and these crashing sounds.... and that guitar! I wonder why he never played with Zappa again. 2) Now I know why I stopped paying attention to the likes of Sting, Joe Cocker, Chris Rea, Phil Collins, Dire Straits and that stuff years ago. "Butterfly in China" from Gordon Haskell is the better music from that source. Perfectly recorded, sounds great, and is a pleasure to listen. Any comments? Your Markus ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:49:47 +0100 From: james dot morris at lotamo dot co dot uk Subject: Re: Hendrix From the publication "International Musician & Recording World" March 1979 Issue, interview with RF; "Some players are very, very in contact with wherever music comes from and I think it is easier in rock 'n' roll for a number of reasons. Hendrix did for example, but he didn't have a very good guitar technique in my opinion, if one was talking about callisthenic guitar technique. If you listen to Electric Ladyland you can discover that Hendrix isn't very good at double tracking, but he had this remarkable sense of music." I knew there was a reason for keeping those OLD magazines! James Morris Lotamo - East Crawley, UK LOTAMO - the secret is simplicity ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:43:37 -0300 From: "Ricardo Aranda" Subject: KC editions from Argentina Hi all ETers: This is my first posting to the ET newsletter. KC is one of my fab bands of all time. I saw them here in Argentina, at a blowing-mind gig in october 8 , 1994 It is an unforgettable experience for me, not only for the show in itself, but also FOR MEETING THEM, personally after the show. They performed here on a Pub and later, having a beer at the bar I saw them all (except RF, of course) cheerfully talking all around a table. As I walked towards them I thought I would pee, but anyway I would't loose chance to have a talk with them. Surprisingly for a rock star, I found that Trey, Adrian and Pat were very friendly and very warm people. When I left their meeting I was touched in my arm, looked backwards and YES, It was Robert Fripp who saluted me with a little reverence, kinda-japanese way, whithout saying a word an then leaving. NO, IT was not a dream. I saw some ET posters asking for some rarities on vinyl, and a LP edition of God Save the Queen/UHM, yes I've got an USA / mint condition Edition, and I'm offering also Argentinian editions of KC / R F albums, some of which may content differences in its covers. If interested, feel free to contact me at: rockisland at arnet dot com dot ar Regards ! Ricardo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:06:47 -0400 From: "Mark D. White" Subject: John Wetton and Uriah Heep Jukka wrote: >If you haven't heard any Uriah Heep song but "Lady in Black" check out the >opening track "One Way or Another" of the album High and Mighty. It's quite >nice, and more than that, John Wetton is singing on that one! I wonder what >David Byron was thinking about that. Here's the story behind that track, from UHAS magazine #14, John Wetton interview by Alan Hartley: "David Byron had chicken pox when we were in the middle of recording and somebody had to put the vocal on the track to see if it would work. David had to be away for six weeks or so I put the vocal on ... when David came back they all said it sounded pretty good the way it is and we left it that way ... however well he sang it, it didn't sound the same as the way I sang it. It's not a question of being better ot worst, it's that it didn't sound as the way people had got used to hearing it." Personally, as much as I like Heep, I could never stand John's singing on that track, which I regard as his worst vocal performance (but some people think of it as his best!). Later, Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:33:48 -0400 From: David Vella Subject: Touring Death Knell, Fetishizing & TCoL Dear Crimsomaniacs, Three items for your perusal: 1) In ET698, Axel Bruns responds to the James Dusewicz post re LTIA4 signaling the "death knell" of KC touring. Although far too much space has been devoted to this non-topic already, I'll add my support to Axel's response by pointing out that a single instance in no way constitutes a proof of anything. Axel adds: > Isn't creative statisticking fun ?-) > There's a 90% chance that this posting is devoid of useful > information. Maybe, but 78% of all statistics are made up! ;) 2) Earlier in the same issue, Conor D takes me to task for "fetishizing" King Crimson because of my response to a previous post asking for comparisons of King's X to King Crimson. My response regarding King's X ended with this sentence which offended Conor: > "They (King's X) may be good, but they hardly merit being > mentioned in the same sentence as King Crimson. > (But then, who does?)" I do not wish to be seen as fetishizing anyone. My CD collection numbers near 600, includes many artists, including several CD's by King's X and several dozen CD's by King Crimson. The part of my response which appears to be fethishizing has to be the final parenthetical comment, because it suggests that in any comparison with King Crimson, I have made up my mind ahead of time. It was rather glib of me to add that, so thanks to Conor for pointing it out. Please remove the final parenthetical remark. What remains is an accurate, reasoned description of my feelings for King's X and their relation to King Crimson, and I stand by it. 3) Now that I have owned TCol for a couple of weeks and played it about a dozen times, I feel safe in commenting on it. (I confess I don't understand all these folks who were so quick to pass judgment after just a single listen or two...) I like this album! Congratulations to Fripp, Belew, Gunn & Mastelloto for creating a monster. It's splendid! In more detail: I like Adrian's treated vocals on P Blues - to whoever said it sounded like a bad Tom Waits imitation, well actually it sounds like a pretty good Tom Waits imitation to me. Bottom line is the song sounds better with the treated vocals than it would (I imagine) without. The FraKctured & LTIA4 pieces are not at all "backwards looking" or "nostalgic", but modern evolutions of very welcome themes. The title track is excellent, and most of the song actually is reminiscent of the 70's prog band Gentle Giant. (In my book, this is a good thing.) Someone complained that Oyster Soup was just SSEDD from Thrak all over again, and voiced the opinion that they had had enough of Belew's random word association in the lyrics. Well, to the extent that the two songs can be compared, I happen to like Oyster Soup better, and the lyrics, which really aren't randomly associated at all, are also better on OS than SSEDD. Adrian's guitar is on fire throughout the whole album. The V-drums don't bother me, and Pat certainly does a GREAT job as the percussionist. I'm not saying I wouldn't also enjoy the material with acoustic drums or as played by Bill Bruford in addition to Pat, but I really appreciate the pared down lineup. Much less dense than the double trio. Again, this is not to say that amazing things wouldn't happen if/when Bill & Tony join up later on, but the whole thing works quite well on its own. It is true that there is a dearth of softer moments, no Talk-to-the Wind-Cadence-and-Cascade-Trio-Heartbeat-One-Time moments to balance off the intensity of the rest of the album. Before I bought the CD, I thought that this would really bother me. Oddly, it doesn't. I'm sure I would have enjoyed a softer song had they put one on, but I find I don't miss it at all. It is customary in writing a review to include at least one criticism, so I will do so now (especially as I have already been accused of 'fetishizing' the band.) Actually, 2 criticisms. I don't like the guitar-as-piano sound that Fripp plays on his "spiderfingers" solo in Oyster Soup. Don't get me wrong - the PLAYING is great. It's the sound I don't like. Every once in a while, a King Crimson song will benefit from a piano section. I just wish they would hire Keith Tippet to play it like they used to instead of trying to synthesize the sound. (On the other hand, can you imagine Fripp playing Tippet's original part on, say, Cat Food? Too bad this lineup doesn't want to revisit older material!) The other criticism - I think they could have done a better job on the cover art. It's the worst cover art of any King Crimson CD, except maybe the Night Watch or Deja Vrooom. In summary, and I realize this is only an opinion, but I like this CD better than Thrak or VROOOM. It's the best thing KC has put out in 16 years. Can't wait for the American leg of the tour! Cheers, David PS Easy Trivia question: Name three King Crimson songs with the word "kitchen" in the lyrics. No fair looking up the lyrics - do it from memory! -- ==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==* David C. Vella Office: Harder Hall 219 Associate Professor of Mathematics 518-580-5291 Skidmore College dvella at skidmore dot edu Saratoga Springs, NY 12866 Home: 518-587-5363 web-page: http://www.skidmore.edu/~dvella/dcvbio1.htm ==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 20:39:41 -0500 From: Craig Subject: Re: Elephant Talk #698 (RE: Approaching Synthetica) RE: the recently discussed CD by David Sylvian called 'Approaching Silence'. >And a heart warming surprise to find the following liner note: "My warmest >thanks to Holger Czukay for supplying me with sample material". Why a surprise? They have worked together extensively for a very long time. Holger & Sylvian previously did two albums in collaboration. One was Plight & Premonition, the other (I`ve forgotten the title). Both are wonderful. Craig ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:16:01 +0200 From: Wolfgang Armbruster Subject: centipede FYI: check out CENTIPEDE! It's worth it! The band's website http://www.fancylab.com/centipede/ MP3s on MP3.com http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/74/centipede.html > Artist description > Centipede has music that is written like a story. Not much of the verse > chorus format and very dynamic. The music is prone to quick changes and > strange feels. Progressive rock with a experimental edge. > Music style: > Progressive > Musical influences: > Mr. Bungle, Rush, King Crimson, Frisell > Similar Artists: > Primus(minus the funk), Rush(minus the pop), Crimson(minus Fripp and > Bruford), Tool(minus the metal), Frisell(minus the jazz) Wolfgang ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 06:15:39 EDT From: MarkJX at aol dot com Subject: Progressive? In a message dated 6/19/00 12:56:41 AM Mountain Daylight Time, et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk writes: > I've listened to the new Gong, zero to infinity, yesterday. Good stuff, > similar to classic Gong, but not innovative. Which is better than what > Pink Floyd and Yes... are producing the last 20 years. Just goes to show > ya : if there is a 'progressive' band, it's King Crimson, and the > controversy about their new releases (X incl) proves it. Man, I'm so sorry > I'm not able to go see them live this year : the reviews are making me nuts > (but please keep 'em coming). Hail to the current Court, especially Pat : > strangers in a strange land. ta > I guess that the others are just IVE bands, as they were progressive, but lost the progress. MJ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 06:15:40 EDT From: MarkJX at aol dot com Subject: Mastica In a message dated 6/19/00 12:56:41 AM Mountain Daylight Time, et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk writes: > Mastica (http://www.mastica.net) has played four or so shows this > year; I went to two of 'em. They were up to seven players at the > last show at the Mercury, which really filled out the sound. The > CD is great, the live show is wicked smokin'. > > Munkey mentions in her diary that there might be some gigs July- > September while Pat is on KCrimson break. > I still like '99 (from Mastica)better than TCoL. I'll probably like H&E better too. You folks down in Austin are blessed. PAT - My offer still stands to help set up a Colorado minitour, and ignore what the CGT say; I'm not that bad of an "agent" ;-) Mark J. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:56:30 +0200 (GMT+02:00) From: Jury Alexander Jania Subject: TCoL once again After lots of commentary about TCoL I just wanted to add my 5 Cents. I remember that few years ago there was a statement by RF which said that a) the next outfit would be an electronic one and b) that there would be no songs prior 1994 in the setlist. And now here you are: a) you got an album which is consequently electronic (even the vocals are mainly distorted) and b) with the exception of AB's solo-performance of ToaPP there are no more "classic tunes" in the setlist. (So wouldn't it be possible to make dead threads of both - otherwise I could talk about that I prefer BB and want to take lots of photographs of RF... ;-)) I confess that I didn't like TCoL at first and still find it difficult to get through to it. Someone said, that if you don't like it you hadn't played it loud enough and: it works better, so "thank you very much" for that advice! (Even though I still didn't like the whole of it) My personal favourites are Oyster (this got me off my feet with headphones and a pumped-up volume (so my wife finally stopped complaining) - the weired piano-guitar reminded me of Keith Tippet), ItFP (the vocal-style having an Alice in Chains-touch) and LTiA 4.1 + IhaD. The rest... yes, well, I'm still slidely disapointed because: PB works well as a sort of an inside-joke for ET-Readers ("It's a turd"), but is musically not that spectacular (I forgot one thing: this is just my own opinion, not fact - so there is no need for crucifying me... ;-) TCoL.1 might be difficult to play but is boring to listen to. TCoL.2 hasn't got me, maybe because the first and the middle part reminded me to much of Yes "Loser - - In Time - - Sunflower --- Asking --- Lover --- Cover ...and so on... (this is never quoted right!) F is as fast as light, but there is nothing really new about it - same with LTiA IV. Some ET'ers complained about the lack of lyrical moments. I miss them to. There used to be beautiful gems (and I am not talking about Heartbeat!) that balanced the sonic brutality and force. But concerning this, Vrooom and Thrak didn't convince me that much, too. ...and HaE? I like the first 2/3, but when bass and drums start in the second soundscapes, it really begins to noodle: that part (IMHO!!!) would fit perfectly on any so-called New Age-album. But the whole PX-album is luckily more consequent. I think, that if this outfit is able to work on, the music would be better called prog-metal or prog-industrial than prog-rock. pr more and more becomes a relict of the 70s and was already dead in the 80s. The DT was a good example for such a pr- dinosaur. The KC-PX already got me to listen to todays music more carefully - and there are lots of gems to discover (even in electronic music, which I didn't like at all). But also I enjoyed the concert (at Bonn) very much, I don't know if I will ever really like TCoL (though I give it some more tries cause at least it used to be my favourite band). But there is no need to because it's just a piece of music and no dogma, isn't it? Finally I want to say, that I don't find six CD's that I want to purchase from the KCCC - at least I'm only interested in Live At Summit Studios cause it presents that outfit I like the most (please.....don't ask me why!). What a pity! If there is any chance to get one, please tell me! Tschuss Jury ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:30:45 +0200 From: Gnad Markus Subject: Hendrix The Book on Fripp by Eric Tamm says somehow that Fripp thought it was that immense power of music streaming through Jimi Hendrix that made him die in the end. Like so many others. Markus ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:37:54 GMT From: "E-MET IS TRUTH" Subject: GIG REVIEW: CONEGLIANO VENETO - ITALY Hi ! I've been in Congliano ... perfect performance but - BAD sound ... too much sub bases (3/4 of squre) almost spioled the final enjoying ... In Lignano (1996) the sound was 100 times better .... No matter .... they (KC) are still FIRST DIVISION !! Tommy ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #699 ********************************