Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #697 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 697 Tuesday, 20 June 2000 Today's Topics: NEWS: Remasters in the mini LP sleeves Mastelotto in Austin Nashville Deceptions Bootlegtv production of KC Live Re: Another Red Vinyl rarities KC's choice of venues Re: Elephant Talk #696 (RE: Pat`s group Mastica) KC Past Incarnations FAQ 45 God Save The Queen/Under Heavy Manners - HELP!! Norbert Fragg: Out of the Garbage Can Another "Red" and Uriah Heep Ex-Gabriel Musicians gig in San Francisco Re: Crimson set list? King Crimson's last tour for a spell? re: Crimson Set List Heaven & Earth = the best thing ever, period. McDonald and Giles Hendrix P4 - Live in San Francisco 1998 - demand? Red & Tull & something Heep ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 11:27:39 -0400 From: Gary Davis Subject: NEWS: Remasters in the mini LP sleeves (Oddly enough, the header for this submission showed up in the last ET, but the actual submission was not included, so I'm sending this again) Hi, folks: Well, of course it's been hotly debated here how Virgin never printed enough of the Poseidon, Lizard and Islands remasters in the mini-LP sleeves to meet the demand. The reasons for that shortage have been discussed here and don't need to be repeated again. I believe I'd actually heard reports that these CD's were already showing up on eBay and fetching decent prices!!! Now here's the good news! A second run of these three CD's (and Court.... as well) has come to fruition!!! Yes, they're in the mini LP sleeves and are in every way identical to the first run. I have confirmation from my rep at Caroline that they have all four titles back in stock so I've ordered more to replete my dwindling supplies. (Actually I had ordered a large enough quantity of these initially that of all the titles, I had only just recently run out of Lizard.) I believe it is due to the lobbying efforts of DGM that this second run has come to pass. So much thanks to them for their efforts. HOWEVER (!!!!) I cannot stress strongly enough that if you want these CD's and do not yet have them, you need to order them IMMEDIATELY (whether it's from The Artist Shop, DGM or wherever). When I asked my Caroline rep how much stock of each they got in, she replied that it was between 1,000 and 2,000 of each title! Folks, that's a drop in the bucket and they're certainly not going to last very long at all. So don't delay! Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com artshop at artist-shop dot com phone: 877-856-1158, 330-929-2056 fax:330-945-4923 INDEPENDENT PROGRESSIVE MUSIC!!! ************************************************************** Check out the latest Artist Shop newsletter at http://www.artist-shop.com/news.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 14:50:09 -0500 From: "David F. Snyder" Subject: Mastelotto in Austin > Texas ETer`s.....What`s the chance of seeing Pat`s band in the Austin area > sometime? Does his band (I forgot the name) play local much? (I live in > Dallas, but travel there alot). ~Craig Good chance. Saw Mastica at Ruta Maya's in Austin in March. I think they played a couple other places as well. Pat is awesome. Check out his website (www.mastica.net) for dates (though KC has him for now). I'm sure he'll be out around town again after europe. > Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:50:46 -0500 > From: Earl Rapp > Subject: new Crim or how V-drums killed my fav band Funny: I stand almost completely opposed to Mr. Rapp's opinions. There's no accounting for taste, I s'pose. Coming from an area with a plethora of blues venues and excellent blues musicians, I think ProzaKc Blues is a cool perspective/satire on the genre - I enjoy the v-drums on it, the bass line is monster, the last guitar solo shows Adrian's mastery of the slide ... you know ... david s ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 00:32:20 -0400 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: Nashville Deceptions Despite the fact that TCoL and Heaven & Earth have both recently arrived in my home, I find that I have thrown them both over for the Nashville 5-19 gig, which I have taken to calling "Nashville Deceptions", and which has been in heavy rotation here since I found out about the thing. The new songs really breathe, begin to occupy physical 3-dimensional space, in a live context. It seems almost too trite and obvious to even bother observing, but after giving this live show a couple of spins, by comparison the two new albums sound flat, less colorful, maybe too "perfect", not organic. This is not a criticism of the albums so much as an observation about live versus studio recording, and ultimately a testimony to the live chops of Crim. The flip side of course is to call the live gig recording more spacious, colorful, ragged, and alive. What also comes across in the live show is the extent to which the Double Duo sound harkens back both to the Double Trio, and to the '81-'84 version of the band. It is as if the ProjeKCtile learning was the driving force behind both the album proper and (perhaps to a lesser extent) the rehearsals disc, while as a performing entity the band is synthesizing that learning in a seamless way with what came before. The best of both worlds, in my opinion. Three highlights of the Nashville show: 1. During Oyster Soup, Belew says (presumably to Fripp), "Ah, play it for me, spider fingers!" 2. Later in the show, betewwn songs, Belew laughs and says, "Look at you all, dancing in 7/8." 3. At the very end, for about 90 seconds, Fripp addresses the audience directly. I won't spoil it by quoting; check it out if you haven't already. And then, by all means, do "buy stuff." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 00:15:00 -0700 From: "a. b. tuckerman" Subject: Bootlegtv production of KC Live Does anyone know how to render/change the bootlegtv streaming audio of the KC Nashville concert into a form that can be burned onto a CDR. Is it safe to assume that this sort of behavior would be kosher? The Life And Times Of Adam Tuckerman: http://www.aznet.net/~crimson/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:03:14 +0300 From: "Piia & Jari Schroderus" Subject: Re: Another Red In ET #696 Milhouse60 at aol dot com wrote: > Subject: Another Red > I read at J-Tull.com that Jethro Tull's next album is to be entitled "Red". > Any thoughts on this? On J-Tull.com the post from Ian Anderson states: "The opening act on the last first shows has been the excellent Young Dubliners - not the most sparkling of names some of you might think - but they are the Young Dubs to their many fans in Southern California. Not so young either, as I wheedled out of them last night! One member celebrates his fortieth birthday today and the others are thirty-something, we are told. And I assumed they were barely old enough to shave. They are a perfect choice as a Tull opener with their blend of Irish and American influences and a new record, "Red" set for release on the 20th of June. They rejoin the tour for the Florida shows in a week's time. Come early to catch the band's full set. That's an order!" [ Thanks to the other posters who also pointed this out. -- Toby ] Jari Schroderus Check out our website The Glimpse at http://www.kolumbus.fi/piia.jari.schroderus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:22:07 +0200 From: Gnad Markus Subject: Vinyl rarities Good morning! Maybe some of you fellow freaks should take a close look at www.rares-vinyl.de for some vinyl rarities. Markus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:30:45 GMT From: "Uno K." Subject: KC's choice of venues I read in RF's diary that 5o% of the venues KC have played on the European leg, apparently have been so poor acoustically that Fripp now hesitates to play in Europe again. I'm surprised that KC's management have booked venues that aren't acceptable acoustically. I understand that their budget is limited but maybe KC should have a management with better contacts in Europe. Contacts that can give advise of which venues to play and not to play. Uno Karlsson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 06:38:02 -0500 From: Craig Subject: Re: Elephant Talk #696 (RE: Pat`s group Mastica) >Mastica (http://www.mastica.net) has played four or so shows this >year; I went to two of 'em. They were up to seven players at the >last show at the Mercury, which really filled out the sound. The >CD is great, the live show is wicked smokin'. >Munkey mentions in her diary that there might be some gigs July- >September while Pat is on KCrimson break. Thanks for the info. So the "Mercury" is a club in Austin where they usually play? I`ll keep checking this site for developments. Plan on seeing them sometime in July I hope. ~Craig ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 13:45:54 GMT+1 From: Xavier Ozouf Subject: KC Past Incarnations FAQ 45 Lost krimSon ? Exposure of course ! I strongly believe that this Fripp solo album contains what can be considered as a bridge between its KC's past and future (I did not listened it lately, so I do this by memory). 1) It features Tony Levin (+ lots of guest superstars) and the inside notes also refers to ancients members (J. Wetton + others) 2) some tunes are fairly Crimso' : Red like instr., and North Star has some Matte Kudasai riffs and felling, one could even quote Vrooom ! 3) Frippertronics aka soundscapes, direct from Eno. What's interresting in it (at least for me) 1) Mr Fripp playing (?) Rock'n Roll (Boogie) with "You turn me up I'm a cigarette". 2) Arkangel Gab rarity : "when the flood come" piano-voice + some frippertronics at both sides To be honest this album is a bit messy (I never liked the Exposure thing on Peter Gabriel second album, and here it's worth) but the overall felling is good. I do not have MC Donald/Giles or Sylvian/Fripp works, but I strongly disapprove anyone saying G,G & F Cheerfull Insanity is a lost Crimson album : it's as bad as the real first Genesis album (From Genesis to Revelation), which means that I've played them two times : one to discover, and the second because I looked for something good in it all. For Mr Fripp happily the worth is at the very beginning, contrary to Yes who keeps surprise me in its highs & lows. So, thanks Xavier OZOUF 23 ans, Caen (Normandie) France Boite aux lettres - Caramail - http://www.caramail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 06:37:30 -0700 (PDT) From: tim gainer Subject: God Save The Queen/Under Heavy Manners - HELP!! WANTED: SOMPLACE in the Chicago area a guy can pick up a vinyl or disc copy of "God Save the Queen/ Under Heavy Manners" - and no, I don't mean the L.O.G. re-master!! I'm looking for the original release for my 15yo son who's just gotten his first taste of Frippertronics and is now officially jonesing for more!! Any help would be appreciated...will also consider all private offers. Thanks guys... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:49:32 EDT From: Bknt at aol dot com Subject: Norbert Fragg: Out of the Garbage Can THIS JUST IN! Plucked from obscurity (and an unemptied dust bin filled with soggy cartons of Chinese take-away, Mondrian Bayou's discarded, dearly departed, if not dead-on-arrival, lyrics for newest Slurp Fraggson album, The Frustration of Trite, the very new CD, emblazoned with a sticker quote from Norbert Fragg: "Slurp Fraggson is older, smaller and slightly potty. Too long out of the cradle, but not yet into the grave, we no longer invent the wheel, but we can still rock, and roll with the punches." Four Stooges Blues Well I woke up this morning in yesterday's underwear Got the cat scratch fever so I ran my hand way down there Couldn't think of no new words to rhyme Checked out the song doctor who said, "Son, this ain't no crock You've been listening to too much Album Oriented Rock." The Frustration of Trite And if Michael Jackson's the King of Pop what am I? A middle-aged family man with only small fish to fry. Floundering in self-pity. An oyster in a stew. Into the Garbage Can I was just thinking about Frank Sinatra How he ate it up and spit it out and did it his way And I'm tossing what I sung the other day Into the garbage can This Song's Whatever I Say It Is Snit snot, Bryon's claw, plastic surgeons sweep the floor Nothing ventured, nothing less, oh what a perfect mess Think anybody will understand this? Our guitars make sounds between the notes Don't compose. Follow your nose and pick what floats. Coda: I Ate the Dream (The first line is from Zappa's "Electric Aunt Jamima") Holidays and salad days, and days of moldy mayonnaise Fast food photos of supersize fries James Beard, Julia Child, Escoffier and Savarin Cat food, hot wings, a waste of sweet and sour Red herring, whitefish, blue cheese, a greasy box of take out Chinese The steaming menu of our just desserts: can't get enough, even if it hurts. Bill Kent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:41:01 -0400 From: "Mark D. White" Subject: Another "Red" and Uriah Heep > 2) Uriah Heep John Wetton played bass on two Uriah Heep albums, "Return to Fantasy" and "High & Mighty" (on which he co-wrote and sang one song, "One Way or Another"). He kept up the tradition of virtuosic bass playing in Heep, though by all accounts he was merely a hired gun, not a fully-integrated member of the band. Live shows from the era display some jaw-dropping playing by John, which some feel blows away even his best KC performances. (You can find out everything you wan to know about Heep at http://www.uriah-heep.com.) As for them "sucking"...uh, NO. Later, Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:19:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Jorge Jimenez Subject: Ex-Gabriel Musicians gig in San Francisco Hey guys, I went to the Tony Levin's gig in SF last saturday, I just wanna say that those guys are actually doing a huge good job, the gig was very emotive and I could feel the presence of Gabriel in there... great show, great musicians and a lot of old memories! Jorge Jimenez http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:28 +0100 From: Florian Subject: Re: Crimson set list? I think Tony Greig's post is very interesting and worth some contemplation. What does the audience want to hear? for my own part, I would have loved to hear them play "Easy Money" or "Cat Food", as PM himself once suggested and I think it would have been very interesting to listen to this "Incarnation's" versions of these songs (IMHO KC's current "Rock Music"-attitude would suit these classics very well!). But they (RF?) decided to leave their past behind and perform their current material. And I absolutely appreciate that decision!As one ETer mentioned before: KC is not just an ordinary band that has gone through some "personnel changes". It's many different groups, with different musical idendities, but they all have two things in common: The love for what they are doing and the ability to amaze their audience by innovation and virtuosity. Just listen to ProjeKct X "Heaven and Earth". Now this is really different! (Great "V-drumming", BTW ;O) One time they sound like "Massive Attack" and the next moment you think you listen to "Nine Inch Nails". Compare this to ITCotCK, LTiA, Discipline, etc. ! Some people still might think that by having paid some big bucks to get a ticket for a KC gig, they have the right to demand certain pieces of music.. too bad, guys! I think that not playing all these "golden oldies" is one of KC's biggest strengths. They just don't have to! They come up with awesome music every year (or every other year =), without repeating themselves endlessly. I remember watching Genesis an their "Calling All Stations"-tour and though I like Ray Wilson as a person, I found itabsolutely boring that he seemed to completely imitate the performance of Phil Colins on their previous tour No real surprises! (Genesis is still one of my favourite bands... but unfortunately their boat is sinking!) So let us all be aware and proud of the fact that we are fans of a real special "band" (and all its fraKctals)! flo "One time again! We're trying to keep the f***ing piece movin'!!!" -RF ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 00 14:50:18 EDT From: James Dusewicz Subject: King Crimson's last tour for a spell? I know I mentioned this earlier but I see the inclusion of "Larks' Tongues In Aspic IV" on tCoL CD as a death knell cry for King Crimson as we know it for awhile. Aside from it's first appearance on the self-same titled album(in which Jamie Muir played percussion and left shortly thereafter), LTIA appearances have pre-figured the end of Crimsons lineups. So after this tour, they may split for awhile. Proof of this can be seen by the inclusion of LTIA III on THREE OF A PERFECT PAIR(1984). Additionally the ProjecKcts improvs have a striking resemblence to the instrumental portions of that album too. Any comments?? jim campaigner at usa dot net James Dusewicz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:39:34 -0500 From: "Grant Colburn" Subject: re: Crimson Set List Tony Greig wrote" >I am aware of Fripp's direction as to the past musical history of Crimson >and respect that view, however I am sure there would be fans of Crimson >attending TCOL concerts and leaving, possibly feeling a little disappointed >as to a certain era of music being left out. Although I can appreciate that certain fans will be bummed out, Fripp has made it a point to be very clear and honest about what to expect at this Crimson's shows. Though it may seem logical to compare Crimson with other legendary 70's prog bands like Yes and Kansas, you also know from reading Fripps opinions that he doesn't want to consider Crimson to be part of the 70's prog scene. Fripp has gone so far as to suggest the original TCOTCK members get together and play with Steve Hackett and do a tour of nothing but old Crimson music. He has nothing against and audience's desire for nostalgic music, but obviously for him it carries little positive pleasure to play anymore. I'm sure in some ways it would be like being a successful author and having all your fans wishing you'd keep reciting your college term paper rather than your newest work. Its ironic that so many people miss the "old" Crimson music yet complain about there being new versions of FraKctured and Lark's 4. Fripp's logic for including these pieces makes sense to me. It was a way for the new band to be a part of the historic Crimson without actually having to play actual old Crimson music. I mean in the end like anything, (photagraphy, taping, bootlegs, autographs, etc.) Fripp decides when and if he is going to appear live and under what circumstances. If his entire fan base turned on him and refused to attend any shows or buy any new disks he might need to reconsider the stipulations he has created, but until that happens I say you take what you are offered. At this point it seems to be either new Crimson or NO Crimson. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:07:16 -0400 From: "Peter Shindler" Subject: Heaven & Earth = the best thing ever, period. Hey, I just got my copy of "Heaven & Earth" and I'm stunned. This is >real<. This music doesn't seem to have much in common with anything on Construkction of Light (with the obvious exception of the track "Heaven & Earth," also presented here), and the differences indicate some of the challenges and possibilities that the boyz are going to face playing the new material live. The direction on TCoL was heavy riffing, heavy rhythms, and heavy textures, which is well and good, but tended to exhaust this listener after a few tracks. "Heaven & Earth" sounds to me more like what the Future Sound of London or Orbital would sound like if they played live instruments (and could tear ass in 17/16). The balance between noise and music is better here; ugly and intense sections break through to quiet ambient interludes, which eventually work themselves back into the void again. Magic. Mastellotto's the real star here. On TCoL, he seemed to be using his V-drums to imitate the sounds that an acoustic drumset would make, which sometimes worked and sometimes didn't. On H&E, he's been given free rein to bring forth some of the strangest and most wonderful electronic sounds ever heard in the King Crimson universe, and he succeeds admirably. Furthermore, his love of techno/breakbeat/drum 'n' bass music is more apparent than ever; you can really move to some of this stuff, and the other guys play off it magnificently. Fripp does mucho soundscaping on these tracks and not a whole lot of power-chord riffing. Trey Gunn takes the role he had in Projekct 2, alternating between the high and low ends of his instrument. And Adrian? He's up for the game, showing us what he'd have done if he'd been allowed to play with his guitar during the Projekcts. There's lots of the "intertwined lead" playing that we heard so much of in all of the Projekcts, only now it's often a three-way effort. In terms of sheer listenability, H&E falls somewhere between the milestones of KC improv: not as abstract as ThrakAttak, but not as obviously musical as the "blows" of the Larks Tongues' lineup. Parts of it sound something like the later Projekcts (3 and 4) but not too much. I recall what I said about P3's "Masque" recording; it's closely-related to ThrakAttak; specifically, it's that album's younger brother, who grew up listening to his big bro's John Cage, Ornette Coleman, and Mahavishnu Orchestra albums. But now he wears lots of black, does ecstacy, and lives to go out clubbing. This sums up Heaven & Earth pretty well too. The verdict: get this album! (and be patient with DGM mail-order; mine took a few weeks to arrive) Peter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:57:33 CST From: "william garton" Subject: McDonald and Giles Greetings ET'ers, Just a small note some of you may be interested in: Ian McDonald and Mike Giles' self-titled album from 1970 has been recently re-released and is available through Japan. It also features Mike's brother Pete on bass, Steve Winwood on keys and some lyrics of Pete Sinfield. Ian McDonald as you can imagine plays an array of key and wind instruments. It's a great listen and I believe Robert referred to it once saying that it was one half (the other was In The Wake Of Poseidon) of an album never made. It is much lighter in style than KC up until that point point in time and adds a little more to the understanding of the first incarnation of KC and it's internal forces. All songs are composed by McDonald and Giles. It includes a song called, "Flight of the Ibis", based around the original melody of 'Cadence and Cascade', very much worth a listen, Farewell, Will. (Australia) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 02:13:36 -0400 From: James Hannigan Subject: Hendrix --------------------------- >From: Daniel Pepper >Subject: Fripp's Opinion On Jimi Hendrix >.hello everyone..i read in a Robert Fripp interview about Fripp's opinion on >Hendrix..he thinks he was a man who had something to say, but not a >wonderful musician..i just thought his opinion was interesting...on the >other hand, Hendrix said that ITCOTCK was an excellent, mind-blowing >album..feel free to comment on the these two musicians' opinions of each >other~ OK I'll comment. I don't think that's quite right - Fripp has said his technique was not correct, but that he "embodied the spirit of music" I believe it was. I don't know what you mean by wonderful, whether that's your word or RF's, but I find it hard to believe that he'd be that narrow-minded. Focusing on technique is a musician talking - but the end result speaks for itself. Could someone with better "technique" have done the Star Spangled Banner the same way, or Machine Gun, Voodoo Child (slight return)...the list goes on. Genius counts for more than training. Training helps, but it's not a substitute. Anyway, I have an interview Fripp did in 81 with Vic Garbarini; RF said (paraphrase) that the first time he heard Purple Haze everything opened up for him. Maybe you can bring in some direct quotes?- Jim Hannigan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:00:14 +0100 From: Matthew Nolan Subject: P4 - Live in San Francisco 1998 - demand? I was wondering how many non KC Collectors Club members were interested in this release? I for one am not really interested enough in sufficient majority of the Club releases to warrant joining - I am most interested in post 1994 KC, which is fairly well documented - but I "really dig" P4. I remember reading that certain CC releases may eventually be opened up to all DGM mail order customers if there was sufficient demand. I have seen a couple of people post to ET trying to get copies of this release. So, if you're not a Club member, but have a strong interest in P4 - Live in San Francisco 1998, please mail *me* (don't clog ET) so I can get an idea of demand. Then I'll put it to DGM, via the guestbook or whatever. Regards, Matt Nolan. =================================================== The bizarre but boogieable Rob Beadle Triangle Band http://www.rbtb.co.uk/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 03:23:59 -0800 From: "Jukka Hartikainen" Subject: Red & Tull & something Heep Hi everyone! And then there was someone else asking about Uriah Heep. If you haven't heard any Uriah Heep song but "Lady in Black" check out the opening track "One Way or Another" of the album High and Mighty. It's quite nice, and more than that, John Wetton is singing on that one! I wonder what David Byron was thinking about that. Thanks, Jukka ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #697 ********************************