Elephant Talk #697 (as text)

19 June 2000

Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 11:27:39 -0400
From: Gary Davis <artshop at artist-shop dot com>
Subject: NEWS: Remasters in the mini LP sleeves
(Oddly enough, the header for this submission showed up in the last ET, but
the actual submission was not included, so I'm sending this again)

Hi, folks:

Well, of course it's been hotly debated here how Virgin never printed
enough of the Poseidon, Lizard and Islands remasters in the mini-LP sleeves
to meet the demand.  The reasons for that shortage have been discussed here
and don't need to be repeated again.  I believe I'd actually heard reports
that these CD's were already showing up on eBay and fetching decent

Now here's the good news!  A second run of these three CD's (and Court....
as well) has come to fruition!!!  Yes, they're in the mini LP sleeves and
are in every way identical to the first run.  I have confirmation from my
rep at Caroline that they have all four titles back in stock so I've
ordered more to replete my dwindling supplies.  (Actually I had ordered a
large enough quantity of these initially that of all the titles, I had only
just recently run out of Lizard.)

I believe it is due to the lobbying efforts of DGM that this second run has
come to pass.  So much thanks to them for their efforts.

HOWEVER (!!!!) I cannot stress strongly enough that if you want these CD's
and do not yet have them, you need to order them IMMEDIATELY (whether it's
from The Artist Shop, DGM or wherever).  When I asked my Caroline rep how
much stock of each they got in, she replied that it was between 1,000 and
2,000 of each title!

Folks, that's a drop in the bucket and they're certainly not going to last
very long at all.  So don't delay!


                          Gary Davis
The Artist Shop                              The Other Road
http://www.artist-shop.com          artshop at artist-shop dot com
phone: 877-856-1158, 330-929-2056          fax:330-945-4923
       Check out the latest Artist Shop newsletter at

Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 14:50:09 -0500
From: "David F. Snyder" <dsnyder at swt dot edu>
Subject: Mastelotto in Austin
> Texas ETer`s.....What`s the chance of seeing Pat`s band in the Austin area
> sometime? Does his band (I forgot the name) play local much? (I live in
> Dallas, but travel there alot). ~Craig

Good chance. Saw Mastica at Ruta Maya's in Austin in March. I think they
played a couple other places as well. Pat is awesome.

Check out his website (www.mastica.net) for dates (though KC has him for
now).  I'm sure he'll be out around town again after europe.

> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:50:46 -0500
> From: Earl Rapp <earl-man at mindspring dot com>
> Subject: new Crim or how V-drums killed my fav band

Funny: I stand almost completely opposed to Mr. Rapp's opinions. There's no
accounting for taste, I s'pose. Coming from an area with a plethora of
blues venues and excellent blues musicians, I think ProzaKc Blues is a cool
perspective/satire on the genre - I enjoy the v-drums on it, the bass line
is monster, the last guitar solo shows Adrian's mastery of the slide ...
you know ...

david s

Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 00:32:20 -0400
From: "Josh Chasin" <jchasin at nyc dot rr dot com>
Subject: Nashville Deceptions
Despite the fact that TCoL and Heaven & Earth have both recently arrived in
my home, I find that I have thrown them both over for the Nashville 5-19
gig, which I have taken to calling "Nashville Deceptions", and which has
been in heavy rotation here since I found out about the thing.

The new songs really breathe, begin to occupy physical 3-dimensional space,
in a live context.  It seems almost too trite and obvious to even bother
observing, but after giving this live show a couple of spins, by comparison
the two new albums sound flat, less colorful, maybe too "perfect", not
organic.  This is not a criticism of the albums so much as an observation
about live versus studio recording, and ultimately a testimony to the live
chops of Crim.  The flip side of course is to call the live gig recording
more spacious, colorful, ragged, and alive.

What also comes across in the live show is the extent to which the Double
Duo sound harkens back both to the Double Trio, and to the '81-'84 version
of the band.  It is as if the ProjeKCtile learning was the driving force
behind both the album proper and (perhaps to a lesser extent) the rehearsals
disc, while as a performing entity the band is synthesizing that learning in
a seamless way with what came before.  The best of both worlds, in my

Three highlights of the Nashville show:

1. During Oyster Soup, Belew says (presumably to Fripp), "Ah, play it for
me, spider fingers!"

2. Later in the show, betewwn songs, Belew laughs and says, "Look at you
all, dancing in 7/8."

3. At the very end, for about 90 seconds, Fripp addresses the audience
directly.  I won't spoil it by quoting; check it out if you haven't already.
And then, by all means, do "buy stuff."

Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 00:15:00 -0700
From: "a. b. tuckerman" <crimson at aznet dot net>
Subject: Bootlegtv production of KC Live
        Does anyone know how to render/change the bootlegtv streaming audio
of the KC Nashville concert into a form that can be burned onto a CDR.  Is
it safe to assume that this sort of behavior would be kosher?

The Life And Times Of Adam Tuckerman:

Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:03:14 +0300
From: "Piia & Jari Schroderus" <piia dot jari dot schroderus at kolumbus dot fi>
Subject: Re: Another Red
In ET #696 Milhouse60 at aol dot com wrote:

> Subject: Another Red
> I read at J-Tull.com that Jethro Tull's next album is to be entitled "Red".
> Any thoughts on this?

On J-Tull.com the post from Ian Anderson states:

    "The opening act on the last first shows has been the excellent Young
Dubliners - not the most sparkling of names some of you might think - but
they are the Young Dubs to their many fans in Southern California. Not so
young either, as I wheedled out of them last night! One member celebrates
his fortieth birthday today and the others are thirty-something, we are
told.  And I assumed they were barely old enough to shave.  They are a
perfect choice as a Tull opener with their blend of Irish and American
influences and a new record, "Red" set for release on the 20th of June.
They rejoin the tour for the Florida shows in a week's time. Come early to
catch the band's full set. That's an order!"

[ Thanks to the other posters who also pointed this out. -- Toby ]

Jari Schroderus
Check out our website The Glimpse at

Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:22:07 +0200
From: Gnad Markus <MGnad at rundschau dot co dot at>
Subject: Vinyl rarities
Good morning!

Maybe some of you fellow freaks should take a close look at

for some vinyl rarities.


Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:30:45 GMT
From: "Uno K." <youknow_99 at hotmail dot com>
Subject: KC's choice of venues
I read in RF's diary that 5o% of the venues KC have played on the European
leg, apparently have been so poor acoustically that Fripp now hesitates to
play in Europe again.

I'm surprised that KC's management have booked venues that aren't
acceptable acoustically. I understand that their budget is limited but
maybe KC should have a management with better contacts in Europe. Contacts
that can give advise of which venues to play and not to play.

Uno Karlsson

Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 06:38:02 -0500
From: Craig <v-dorje at ticnet dot com>
Subject: Re: Elephant Talk #696 (RE: Pat`s group Mastica)
>Mastica (http://www.mastica.net) has played four or so shows this
>year; I went to two of 'em.  They were up to seven players at the
>last show at the Mercury, which really filled out the sound.  The
>CD is great, the live show is wicked smokin'.

>Munkey mentions in her diary that there might be some gigs July-
>September while Pat is on KCrimson break.

Thanks for the info. So the "Mercury" is a club in Austin where they
usually play?  I`ll keep checking this site for developments. Plan on
seeing them sometime in July I hope.


Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 13:45:54 GMT+1
From: Xavier Ozouf <ozouf dot xavier at caramail dot com>
Subject: KC Past Incarnations FAQ 45
Lost krimSon ? Exposure of course !

I strongly believe that this Fripp solo album contains
what can be considered as a bridge between its KC's past
and future (I did not listened it lately, so I do this by

1) It features Tony Levin (+ lots of guest superstars) and the inside notes
also refers to ancients members (J. Wetton + others)

2) some tunes are fairly Crimso' : Red like instr., and North Star has some
Matte Kudasai riffs and felling, one could even quote Vrooom !

3) Frippertronics aka soundscapes, direct from Eno.

What's interresting in it (at least for me)

1) Mr Fripp playing (?) Rock'n Roll (Boogie) with "You turn me up I'm a

2) Arkangel Gab rarity : "when the flood come" piano-voice + some
frippertronics at both sides

To be honest this album is a bit messy (I never liked the Exposure thing on
Peter Gabriel second album, and here it's worth) but the overall felling is

I do not have MC Donald/Giles or Sylvian/Fripp works, but I strongly
disapprove anyone saying G,G & F Cheerfull Insanity is a lost Crimson album
: it's as bad as the real first Genesis album (From Genesis to Revelation),
which means that I've played them two times : one to discover, and the
second because I looked for something good in it all.

For Mr Fripp happily the worth is at the very beginning, contrary to Yes
who keeps surprise me in its highs & lows.

So, thanks

Xavier OZOUF
23 ans, Caen (Normandie) France

Boite aux lettres - Caramail - http://www.caramail.com

Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 06:37:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: tim gainer <timgainer at yahoo dot com>
Subject: God Save The Queen/Under Heavy Manners - HELP!!
WANTED: SOMPLACE in the Chicago area a guy can pick up a vinyl or disc copy
of "God Save the Queen/ Under Heavy Manners" - and no, I don't mean the
L.O.G.  re-master!! I'm looking for the original release for my 15yo son
who's just gotten his first taste of Frippertronics and is now officially
jonesing for more!!

Any help would be appreciated...will also consider all private offers.

Thanks guys...

Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:49:32 EDT
From: Bknt at aol dot com
Subject: Norbert Fragg: Out of the Garbage Can

Plucked from obscurity (and an unemptied dust bin filled with soggy cartons
of Chinese take-away, Mondrian Bayou's discarded, dearly departed, if not
dead-on-arrival, lyrics for newest Slurp Fraggson album, The Frustration of
Trite, the very new CD, emblazoned with a sticker quote from Norbert Fragg:
"Slurp Fraggson is older, smaller and slightly potty. Too long out of the
cradle, but not yet into the grave, we no longer invent the wheel, but we can
still rock, and roll with the punches."

Four Stooges Blues

Well I woke up this morning in yesterday's underwear
Got the cat scratch fever so I ran my hand way down there
Couldn't think of no new words to rhyme
Checked out the song doctor who said, "Son, this ain't no crock
You've been listening to too much Album Oriented Rock."

The Frustration of Trite

And if Michael Jackson's the King of Pop what am I?
A middle-aged family man with only small fish to fry.
Floundering in self-pity.
An oyster in a stew.

Into the Garbage Can

I was just thinking about Frank Sinatra
How he ate it up and spit it out and did it his way
And I'm tossing what I sung the other day
Into the garbage can

This Song's Whatever I Say It Is

Snit snot, Bryon's claw, plastic surgeons sweep the floor
Nothing ventured, nothing less, oh what a perfect mess
Think anybody will understand this?
Our guitars make sounds between the notes
Don't compose. Follow your nose and pick what floats.

Coda: I Ate the Dream
    (The first line is from Zappa's "Electric Aunt Jamima")
Holidays and salad days, and days of moldy mayonnaise
Fast food photos of supersize fries
James Beard, Julia Child, Escoffier and Savarin
Cat food, hot wings, a waste of sweet and sour
Red herring, whitefish, blue cheese, a greasy box of take out Chinese
The steaming menu of our just desserts: can't get enough, even if it hurts.

Bill Kent

Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:41:01 -0400
From: "Mark D. White" <whitemd at earthlink dot net>
Subject: Another "Red" and Uriah Heep
> 2) Uriah Heep

John Wetton played bass on two Uriah Heep albums, "Return to Fantasy" and
"High & Mighty" (on which he co-wrote and sang one song, "One Way or
Another").  He kept up the tradition of virtuosic bass playing in Heep,
though by all accounts he was merely a hired gun, not a fully-integrated
member of the band.  Live shows from the era display some jaw-dropping
playing by John, which some feel blows away even his best KC performances.
(You can find out everything you wan to know about Heep at

As for them "sucking"...uh, NO.


Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:19:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jorge Jimenez <jljimenezs at rocketmail dot com>
Subject: Ex-Gabriel Musicians gig in San Francisco
Hey guys, I went to the Tony Levin's gig in SF last saturday, I just wanna
say that those guys are actually doing a huge good job, the gig was very
emotive and I could feel the presence of Gabriel in there... great show,
great musicians and a lot of old memories!

Jorge Jimenez


Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:28 +0100
From: Florian <flohansson at de dot dreamcast dot com>
Subject: Re: Crimson set list?
I think Tony Greig's post is very interesting and worth some contemplation.

What does the audience want to hear?

for my own part, I would have loved to hear them play "Easy Money" or "Cat
Food", as PM himself once suggested and I think it would have been very
interesting to listen to this "Incarnation's" versions of these songs (IMHO
KC's current "Rock Music"-attitude would suit these classics very well!).

But they (RF?) decided to leave their past behind and perform their current

And I absolutely appreciate that decision!As one ETer mentioned before:
KC is not just an ordinary band that has gone through some "personnel changes".
It's many different groups, with different musical idendities, but they all
have two things in common:

The love for what they are doing and the ability to amaze their audience by
innovation and virtuosity.

Just listen to ProjeKct X "Heaven and Earth". Now this is really different!
(Great "V-drumming", BTW ;O)

One time they sound like "Massive Attack" and the next moment you think you
listen to "Nine Inch Nails". Compare this to ITCotCK, LTiA, Discipline,
etc. !

Some people still might think that by having paid some big bucks to get a
ticket for a KC gig, they have the right to demand certain pieces of
music.. too bad, guys!

I think that not playing all these "golden oldies" is one of KC's biggest

They just don't have to!
They come up with awesome music every year (or every other year =), without
repeating themselves endlessly.

I remember watching Genesis an their "Calling All Stations"-tour and though
I like Ray Wilson as a person, I found itabsolutely boring that he seemed
to completely imitate the performance of Phil Colins on their previous tour
No real surprises!

(Genesis is still one of my favourite bands... but unfortunately their boat
is sinking!)  So let us all be aware and proud of the fact that we are fans
of a real special "band" (and all its fraKctals)!


"One time again! We're trying to keep the f***ing piece movin'!!!"

Date: 19 Jun 00 14:50:18 EDT
From: James Dusewicz <campaigner at usa dot net>
Subject: King Crimson's last tour for a spell?
I know I mentioned this earlier but I see the inclusion of "Larks' Tongues
In Aspic IV" on tCoL CD as a death knell cry for King Crimson as we know it
for awhile. Aside from it's first appearance on the self-same titled
album(in which Jamie Muir played percussion and left shortly thereafter),
LTIA appearances have pre-figured the end of Crimsons lineups. So after
this tour, they may split for awhile.

Proof of this can be seen by the inclusion of LTIA III on THREE OF A
PERFECT PAIR(1984). Additionally the ProjecKcts improvs have a striking
resemblence to the instrumental portions of that album too.

Any comments??


campaigner at usa dot net

James Dusewicz

Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:39:34 -0500
From: "Grant Colburn" <grantco at greenbaynet dot com>
Subject: re: Crimson Set List
Tony Greig wrote"

>I am aware of Fripp's direction as to the past musical history of Crimson
>and respect that view, however I am sure there would be fans of Crimson
>attending TCOL concerts and leaving, possibly feeling a little disappointed
>as to a certain era of music being left out.

Although I can appreciate that certain fans will be bummed out, Fripp has
made it a point to be very clear and honest about what to expect at this
Crimson's shows. Though it may seem logical to compare Crimson with other
legendary 70's prog bands like Yes and Kansas, you also know from reading
Fripps opinions that he doesn't want to consider Crimson to be part of the
70's prog scene. Fripp has gone so far as to suggest the original TCOTCK
members get together and play with Steve Hackett and do a tour of nothing
but old Crimson music. He has nothing against and audience's desire for
nostalgic music, but obviously for him it carries little positive pleasure
to play anymore. I'm sure in some ways it would be like being a successful
author and having all your fans wishing you'd keep reciting your college
term paper rather than your newest work.  Its ironic that so many people
miss the "old" Crimson music yet complain about there being new versions of
FraKctured and Lark's 4. Fripp's logic for including these pieces makes
sense to me. It was a way for the new band to be a part of the historic
Crimson without actually having to play actual old Crimson music.

I mean in the end like anything, (photagraphy, taping, bootlegs, autographs,
etc.) Fripp decides when and if he is going to appear live and under what
circumstances. If his entire fan base turned on him and refused to attend
any shows or buy any new disks he might need to reconsider the stipulations
he has created, but until that happens I say you take what you are offered.
At this point it seems to be either new Crimson or NO Crimson.

Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:07:16 -0400
From: "Peter Shindler" <shindler at mediaone dot net>
Subject: Heaven & Earth = the best thing ever, period.
Hey, I just got my copy of "Heaven & Earth" and I'm stunned.  This is

This music doesn't seem to have much in common with anything on
Construkction of Light (with the obvious exception of the track "Heaven &
Earth," also presented here), and the differences indicate some of the
challenges and possibilities that the boyz are going to face playing the
new material live.  The direction on TCoL was heavy riffing, heavy rhythms,
and heavy textures, which is well and good, but tended to exhaust this
listener after a few tracks.  "Heaven & Earth" sounds to me more like what
the Future Sound of London or Orbital would sound like if they played live
instruments (and could tear ass in 17/16).  The balance between noise and
music is better here; ugly and intense sections break through to quiet
ambient interludes, which eventually work themselves back into the void
again.  Magic.

Mastellotto's the real star here.  On TCoL, he seemed to be using his
V-drums to imitate the sounds that an acoustic drumset would make, which
sometimes worked and sometimes didn't.  On H&E, he's been given free rein
to bring forth some of the strangest and most wonderful electronic sounds
ever heard in the King Crimson universe, and he succeeds admirably.
Furthermore, his love of techno/breakbeat/drum 'n' bass music is more
apparent than ever; you can really move to some of this stuff, and the
other guys play off it magnificently.

Fripp does mucho soundscaping on these tracks and not a whole lot of
power-chord riffing.  Trey Gunn takes the role he had in Projekct 2,
alternating between the high and low ends of his instrument.  And Adrian?
He's up for the game, showing us what he'd have done if he'd been allowed
to play with his guitar during the Projekcts.  There's lots of the
"intertwined lead" playing that we heard so much of in all of the
Projekcts, only now it's often a three-way effort.

In terms of sheer listenability, H&E falls somewhere between the milestones
of KC improv: not as abstract as ThrakAttak, but not as obviously musical
as the "blows" of the Larks Tongues' lineup.  Parts of it sound something
like the later Projekcts (3 and 4) but not too much.  I recall what I said
about P3's "Masque" recording; it's closely-related to ThrakAttak;
specifically, it's that album's younger brother, who grew up listening to
his big bro's John Cage, Ornette Coleman, and Mahavishnu Orchestra albums.
But now he wears lots of black, does ecstacy, and lives to go out clubbing.
This sums up Heaven & Earth pretty well too.

The verdict:  get this album!

(and be patient with DGM mail-order; mine took a few weeks to arrive)


Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:57:33 CST
From: "william garton" <wilton74 at hotmail dot com>
Subject: McDonald and Giles
Greetings ET'ers,
                 Just a small note some of you may be interested in:  Ian
McDonald and Mike Giles' self-titled album from 1970 has been recently
re-released and is available through Japan.  It also features Mike's brother
Pete on bass, Steve Winwood on keys and some lyrics of Pete Sinfield.  Ian
McDonald as you can imagine plays an array of key and wind instruments.
It's a great listen and I believe Robert referred to it once saying that it
was one half (the other was In The Wake Of Poseidon) of an album never made.
  It is much lighter in style than KC up until that point point in time and
adds a little more to the understanding of the first incarnation of KC and
it's internal forces.  All songs are composed by McDonald and Giles.  It
includes a song called, "Flight of the Ibis", based around the original
melody of 'Cadence and Cascade', very much worth a listen,


Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 02:13:36 -0400
From: James Hannigan <jjh210 at stern dot nyu dot edu>
Subject: Hendrix

>From: Daniel Pepper <duckeetym at aol dot com>
>Subject: Fripp's Opinion On Jimi Hendrix
>.hello everyone..i read in a Robert Fripp interview about Fripp's opinion on
>Hendrix..he thinks he was a man who had something to say, but not a
>wonderful musician..i just thought his opinion was interesting...on the
>other hand, Hendrix said that ITCOTCK was an excellent, mind-blowing
>album..feel free to comment on the these two musicians' opinions of

OK I'll comment. I don't think that's quite right - Fripp has said his
technique was not correct, but that he "embodied the spirit of music" I
believe it was. I don't know what you mean by wonderful, whether that's
your word or RF's, but I find it hard to believe that he'd be that
narrow-minded. Focusing on technique is a musician talking - but the end
result speaks for itself. Could someone with better "technique" have done
the Star Spangled Banner the same way, or Machine Gun, Voodoo Child (slight
return)...the list goes on. Genius counts for more than training. Training
helps, but it's not a substitute.

Anyway, I have an interview Fripp did in 81 with Vic Garbarini; RF said
(paraphrase) that the first time he heard Purple Haze everything opened up
for him. Maybe you can bring in some direct quotes?- Jim Hannigan

Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:00:14 +0100
From: Matthew Nolan <matt at rbtb dot co dot uk>
Subject: P4 - Live in San Francisco 1998 - demand?
I was wondering how many non KC Collectors Club members were interested in
this release?

I for one am not really interested enough in sufficient majority of the
Club releases to warrant joining - I am most interested in post 1994 KC,
which is fairly well documented - but I "really dig" P4. I remember reading
that certain CC releases may eventually be opened up to all DGM mail order
customers if there was sufficient demand. I have seen a couple of people
post to ET trying to get copies of this release.

So, if you're not a Club member, but have a strong interest in P4 - Live in
San Francisco 1998, please mail *me* (don't clog ET) so I can get an idea
of demand. Then I'll put it to DGM, via the guestbook or whatever.


Matt Nolan.
The bizarre but boogieable Rob Beadle Triangle Band

Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 03:23:59 -0800
From: "Jukka Hartikainen" <jukka at jerusalemail dot com>
Subject: Red & Tull & something Heep
Hi everyone!

And then there was someone else asking about Uriah Heep.

If you haven't heard any Uriah Heep song but "Lady in Black" check out the
opening track "One Way or Another" of the album High and Mighty. It's quite
nice, and more than that, John Wetton is singing on that one! I wonder what
David Byron was thinking about that.



Mike Stok