Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #687 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 687 Monday, 5 June 2000 Today's Topics: NEWS: Qango GIG BIZ: KC Paris concert tickets GIG BIZ: Miscellany Newsletter thought Andy McCullogh snare drums Aural Quality? Bootlegging Projekct X Re: An insignificant little thought.. Questions Apologies for last post + FAQ + possible answers + retro-test crim=verb Reply: Flatulence Effects Audient Contribution The ConstruKCtion Of Sound Re: We're bootlegging the next show!!! READ ON!!! A Characteristic To TCOL It's Own... God dead? The Creator Has A Master Plan; PX Box sets for sale ASchulberg's "Bootlegging and Concert Enjoyment" (+ Friday Nashville Show Ex Prozakc reaction TCOL again Trey and robert; trey and jerry (and eric); plus a pun GIG REVIEW: KC in Nuremberg ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 23:22:41 -0400 From: Gary Davis Subject: NEWS: Qango Hi, folks: Quite a number of you out there have made inquiries as to whether or not you could order the new Qango/Live in the Hood CD from The Artist Shop. If you're unfamiliar with this CD, it contains live performances from the new group featuring John Wetton, Carl Palmer, David Kilminster and John Young! Recorded live in the UK at The Robin Hood and The Brook, this disc features 10 tracks including Time Again, Sole Survivor, Bitches Crystal, All Along The Watchtower, Hoedown, Fanfare For The Common Man, Heat Of The Moment and more. Up till now it's only been available through John Wetton's official website. I had made contact to see if we could get it in The Artist Shop, too. So here's the situation. It seems that this CD is due for an official release through Voiceprint sometime this fall. However, there will be another pressing of it sometime between now and the end of the month. Voiceprint has said they'd be happy to give me a supply of them from that pressing and in advance of the official release, but I have to let them know real soon (like in about a week!) how many copies I'll need. So, obviously, I'm putting this note out now so people who are interested can pre-order it now to make sure they get an advance copy. You'll find the Qango CD listed on our Asia/Wetton page at . If you want one, please order it now! Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com artshop at artist-shop dot com phone: 877-856-1158, 330-929-2056 fax:330-945-4923 INDEPENDENT PROGRESSIVE MUSIC!!! ************************************************************** Check out the latest Artist Shop newsletter at http://www.artist-shop.com/news.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 23:48:56 +0200 From: "Shay J. Katz" Subject: GIG BIZ: KC Paris concert tickets I have 2 tickets to the Paris King Crimson concert on 26/06/00. Unfortunately I wouldn't be able to attend the event. If your interested please e-mail me at shaykatz at cybercable dot fr Shay. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 06:10:16 EDT From: "Donnon Murray" Subject: GIG BIZ: Miscellany So anyway, I've abandoned my original plan of doing the whole Euro-tour for fears that my head will explode and my wallet will implode. This music is certainly growing organically but incrementally as well.With a seemingly set playlist MOST of the changes are too subtle for me, a non-musician, to notice. As an Audient I'm excercising my right to step away from the front line for the time being and digest what I've experienced thus far. I do, however, plan on returning in Prague and perhaps Italy. I was wondering if there was anyone out there who may be going to these shows who'd like to meet for a drink before the show or something. I'm travelling alone and the company of some fellow Crimheads would be cool. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 17:32:48 EDT From: AdGuy998 at aol dot com Subject: Newsletter thought Hey all. My first post to the group. Miguel's post in Elephant Talk #686 (Subject: We're bootlegging the next show!!! READ ON!!!) was one of the funniest things I've ever read. Well done. By the way, to chime in on the reviews for The Construkction of Light cd, I really like it. Of course, since I was intorduced to KC via Thrak and the newer stuff, I don't carry around the "older stuff is better ... why can't the play like that" baggage. I bought the Projekcts Box Set and loved it. It set me up for TCoL. Really now, should anyone be surprised a how TCoL turned out? The Projekcts set was a HUGE clue. As for v-drums vs. acoustic ... who cares? The sound Pat got on this record is great. Move on. That's my two cents. Stuart ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 22:35:20 -0400 From: "Rafael Zamora" Subject: Andy McCullogh snare drums For me all the drumming of Michael Giles is so great, very special. I like a lot the drumming of Brufford too, I like Wallace too but I think he was the least spectacular KC drummer and nowdays I'm trying to listen his old KC recordings (Collector's club). All of them really great drummers, but I swear, the day I listened LIZARD, his drummer blew my head down, I couldn't belive it. Today, when I listen again LIZARD, I think the same. McCullogh and all the recording was so magnificent, and although he held a good drumming with GREENSLADE he couldn't do it so splendid as in LIZARD. My greetings Rafael Zamora (Venezuela) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 02:11:13 -0700 From: Lewis Southers Subject: Aural Quality? This is what Timothy W Cox said >Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 00:31:37 -0400 >From: "Timothy W Cox" >Subject: A different perspective on nolstalgia > > >If these individuals are indeed as young as you accuse them of, isn't it >strange that they would prefer music which was so "old" in contrast to >music of their own generation? It would seem that this attests to the >quality of the music of that past period in comparison to music that is >currently being produced. This surely is a compliment to the past >formations of Crimson. And why would these premature ageing adolescents >prefer the old material to TCOL? I suspect that there is a certain quality >of sound missing from the present music that previously existed. This missive was not directed at me, but I was moved to respond. You are making a mistaken assumption that this "aural quality" as you call it is a fixed and noticeable thing. I mean, every person will find "aural quality" in different music. I happen to think that some of the best music of all times was created in the 80's and 90's. And now the 2000's. There have been many great bands since music existed, I would suspect. Now you are telling me that it makes more sense to surmise that the "aural quality" has declined, but it couldn't just be your taste in music does not extend to the newer music that you have heard, so you prefer the older stuff. There has always been quality music and there always will be quality music. Whether or not you perceive it as quality has nothing to do with the music and everything to do with you. -Lewis Her leg is bent in one direction Like a symbol in math A symbol meaning greater than... Soul Coughing ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 23:04:56 +1000 From: "Mark Hawling" Subject: Bootlegging I have been thinking about this whole thread for a while and things finally clicked to me what Fripp is really on about on this issue. I was a serious taper with a DAT machine. Yes, taping a gig does reduce enjoyment for oneself - you do worry about levels; noisy people; tape changing; security etc. But you can get some great tapes and capture some great moments. These tapes can also make a lot of people happy as well. I like live tapes. A few years back I was playing in a very good band and we had a gig from the gods. Not a cool show; not a "Man you guys rocked"; not "Oh we played everything correctly"... it was a show where every moment of effort and practice from the previous 15 years was all for that moment of sheer musical perfection. Drunken yobos just turned and watched in silence, the bar staff just left the bar and sat down and watched... everyone just watched and listened. This was beyond the quality of music or our playing ability... something just happened! I didn't tape it. We had done our worst show ever two hours earlier that was a pile of utter crap. I taped that. It is unlistenable. Do I regret that there is no tape of the gig of perfection? NO. I am glad. Why? The show was not me being that great, I am not that good. The band wasn't that good... we could pull off great gigs and be tight, rockin', interesting, exciting.. etc but not reach sheer musical perfection ourselves. It was us and something else. I am sure the audience had a large influence in some way, but I don't know how. Everything was just right. Really what could a little microphone and 44KHz stereo tape capture of what made that special. What would be the point in having a tape of it? This special mind blowing moment is what I am sure Fripp is always aiming for and does seem to get every so often. This is what I imagine 69 KC was or the the Central Park show. It is a pretty high and tenuous ideal to aim for. My band just somehow stumbled upon it. With regards to him being able to somehow tell whether someone is taping and for it to ruin his performance I think is scientifically impossible. Wasn't the Central Park show taped in 74 by an illicit taper? Why didn't this ruin Fripp's show? Unfortunately we are not dealing with science here so if even the idea throws Fripp, then yes it does. I respect that. If you're with a few people all pissing yourself laughing, feeding of each other where everything is the funniest thing ever and then someone walks in who has no part in the moment... the moment just goes. That I guess is Fripp's taper. So discussion about stealing something is reducing the music to a material product. That is after the fact, the music has to be created in the first place. That is the issue. Most musicians don't aim that high. Fripp isn't a natural musician by his own admission. He is capable of greatness, but maybe its just that bit harder for him to get there. So no flash, no taping is all part of it. Rock on Fripp! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 10:13:35 EDT From: Hocow at aol dot com Subject: Projekct X Howdy, In 685 Kclaus wrote: >I wonder why there hasn't been said many words on PX compared to TCOL. I got Projekct X a few days ago and am still trying to figure it out. The first time I had it on, somewhere in the middle, I'm thinking "What the fukc is that? I probably won't be listening to this too often." Somewhere around track 8 it starts becoming more than a challenging listen. A lot of this cd is just plain obnoxious which with KC music is not unusual and often surprisingly enjoyable. Some of my favorite tracks on previous albums have been the ones that, on first listen, I said, "These guys are nuts." Everyday the more I listen to it the more beautiful and interesting most of it becomes. But there are several tracks I dislike enough that I am considering burning a copy to edit them out. I'll keep listening to the whole thing for a while because they may grow on me, but at the moment I can't beleive they will. >I definitely can't find anything worth in Oyster Soup. I don't know, it's >just too... random, and the piano-guitar at the end is probably the worse >in it (my opinion, OK?). PX's Demolition is actually better! Different strokes. If I decide to skip something "Demolition" will be the first to go. It is "Oyster" without vocals or spider fingers. Although it contains some nice guitar soloing the playing sounds weak after spider fingers and without vocals the background vamp is unbeleivably boring and oppresively distorted. I like "Oyster" because it's abrasive, wild, and in your face. I hate "Demolition" for the same reasons. My favorite is still "Heaven and Earth" but maybe that is because it has had a three week head start burrowing into my brain and I love the beautiful peaceful movement at the end. Most of the album is catching up rapidly but there are about 4 cuts I can't imagine ever liking. On the topic of would you like TCOL if it was by an unknown band? I can't say for sure that I would give this music the effort required to get into it if I was not predisposed to like it. That does not change the validity of my opinion once I got into the music. I think I would like the title cut and Frakctured without knowing they were KC. The other tracks probably would not hold my attention long enough for me to acquire the taste. This is even more true of Projekct X. Without the Crim factor this one would have been a frisbee the first day. With the Crim factor I have put in the effort to find the appeal behind what first appeared to be random noise. Brad Wilmot ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 12:48:58 -0400 From: Denis Rodier Subject: Re: An insignificant little thought.. >Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 21:35:12 EDT >From: "R G" >Subject: An insignificant little thought.. > >I'm new to ET, so please forgive me if this has been mentioned before, but >has anyone noticed a similarity between the "Mission: Impossible" theme and >the bridge to "21st Century Schizoid Man?" Almost makes you wonder... Well I'd rather borrow from Mission Impossible than Bonanza like Yes used to do! ;-) -- Denis Rodier http://lannon.qc.ca/users/drodier/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 12:6:13 -0600 From: "X-French Tee Shirt" Subject: Questions Hello: 1). Anybody covering Soundscan figures for TheCofL? 2) Besides the ProjeKcts, is TheCofL the first time that V-Drums are the exclusive percussive instruments for a well-known (to a degree) artist/group? If not, what are other examples??? 3) Has the Cheerfully Insane one ever thought of colleKcting all his Frippist epigrams and written statements, binding them in a publishable volume of permanent form??? "Consistancy is The Hobgoblin Of Little Minds" -Ralph Waldo Emerson ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 19:32:21 CEST From: "Macahan The Unifaun" Subject: Apologies for last post + FAQ + possible answers + retro-test Hello! First of all I'd like to apologize for my last post, complaining about how cold ET is and everything. It was just me getting depressed by a reply to an earlier post that I took more personally than I had reason to do. I'm sorry. Still, I do think that some ETers are much more cold, narrow-minded and elitistic then members on many other mailing lists. But that applies to some ETers, and not for the majority. >What dou you think? Is anybody crazy enough to do this? I think it would be >wonderfull. Concerning the new FAQ-project, I think the proposition sent to ET last digest was very interesting and something I definitely vote for. Every idea in the post was well thought of, and the division of the FAQ into several files was great. But perhaps I would suggest that a single txt-file with the whole FAQ should be available as well. >I >Does anyone kow Pat's thoughts >- what does he feel about the expectations put to him? WARNING: THE FOLLOWING PART CONTAINS PERSONAL SPECULATIONS!!! I got a quick chat with Pat after the Copenhagen concert a week ago and got some general impressions from him about a few things. When I told him that I considered this lineup to be the best KC-lineup, competing with the Wetton ones, Pat seamed to have hard believing me, but saying something like: "Gee, that's not for me to tell", and looking a bit surprised. Perhaps that was because he's simply a modest and discreet guy. But I think he does regard the previous Crimsons as somewhat greater. That somehow indicates that he doesn't consider himself as living up to earlier members, but I certainly think he does. Man, those V-drums just beats the heart out of me! Anyway, I guess the simultane participation of the legendary Bill Bruford in the double trio may have caused some of this I'm-less-ness, but I'm just speculating. >- and how does it feel to become a member of his favourite band? He mentioned how he went to a KC concert in 73 (?) when he was 1X years old, and what a stunning experience that was, and the amazement over the thought of him being in the band today. Well, now I went to a concert in 99 when I am 20 years old and thought that it was a stunning experience, which implies... Oh well. ;) >III >Should I put my ProjeKCt CD's at P or K???? P Many ETers and others have said TCOL to be very retrospectical (?) and that it's getting a lot of its musical inspiration from earlier records. Yes, that may be so. I've reacted on four possible back-looks in the lyrics as well, composed by song titles from earlier Crimsons. I'll save the musical analysis for others. Don't take this list seriously, it's just an attempt to point out a few interesting links, that I think are intended. So what are the backwards hinting lyrics I've found on TCOL? ProzaKc Blues: "Son, you've been reading too much ELEPHANT TALK" (more hinting at this list than the song, but the name of this list is hinting at an earlier KC song, so...) TCOL: "and if a bird can speak, who once was a DINOSAUR" (dinosaur isn't a THAT usual word...) The world's my...: "as a LARK'S TONGUE in cheekbone china doll", "the world's my oyster soiup kitchen door FRAME BY FRAME" Like I said, don't take this too seriously :) /Macahan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 11:25:24 -0000 From: "john-david lucas" Subject: crim=verb the new ALBUM IS JUST THAT. mabey after court the should have quit. I adore the album,but tis' but my opinion. the prfekt box should alow any one to see fee and ov course feel the energy. peace,plant your acorns and feel. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 14:10:48 -0500 From: "William L. Howell" Subject: Reply: Flatulence Effects Audient Contribution Some ET'er, in ET#677 Gig Review (last entry), actually claims to have cleared a space before the stage using chick peas. - Bill Looking forward to the TCoL gatefold! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 23:13:51 +0200 From: Wolfgang Armbruster Subject: The ConstruKCtion Of Sound Guten Tag, just returning from the Stuttgart concert I'd like to jot down a few thoughts. I went to the gig to see if the music would really "grow" as supposed / wished by many ETers. It did! I think it was a good concert, though not an outstanding one. I don't want to argue about the actual lineup. It's like it is. And I heared _four_ really good musicians! The problem I do have with TCoL and with the concert tonight is the sound! I'd like to understand the reason for dropping (almost all) acoustic instruments. Maybe someone could shed some light on this... KC (and RF especially) has always had high technical standards, regarding the quality of the music. That might be a reason for "digitalizing" the music. But then there should be a better sound presented to the listener! I miss this on the actual CD and I missed it tonight. Not all the time luckily, but rather often: You _see_ Pat drumming, but you can't _hear_ him. Same thing with Trey. It can not have been the venue where they played. It's got really good acoustics. And it can be achieved for even larger audiences as I did experience in another concert a few weeks ago. I'd wish to hear a more differentiated construcktion of sound/music. even at higher volumes. I'm always curious to see what happens next in the ongoing story of KC. But I do also want to be able to listen to it. --- Best, Wolfgang Armbruster mailto:wolfgang at esede dot de ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 09:12:48 -0700 From: "Ehrcraft" Subject: Re: We're bootlegging the next show!!! READ ON!!! Miguel Farah F. so cleverly posted, >Hey, d00ds! A friend of mine is a bootlegger and he is going to TAPE THE NEXT >KING CRIMSON SHOW! And better than that, he has an extra ticket and INVITED >ME!!!!! I only have to help him bring the equipment, and then I'm off to see the >band! C00L, isn't it? BTW, do you guys know how early we have to arrive, so we >can get a soundboard feed without having to fight it with other bootleggers like us? ......etc. & on & on....... WOW! I wish I had the time & large brain to think up something as clever as that post! What next, a poem using KC. song titles? "Into the Frying Pan went the Oyster Soup Thay left in a shell and I FraKtured a tooth Ladies of the Road, I don't mean to be rude You gave me No Warning that you smell of Cat Food " Dave. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 05:21:00 -0400 From: "GREG JONES" Subject: A Characteristic To TCOL It's Own... As with any and all releases from Fripp & Co., it's too soon after 5 listens for me to accurately "rate" TCOL among her plastic peers. However, I WAS struck on my 5th listen by what I feel is a trait unique to this album, and that is that the vocal melodies are BIZARRE!!!! Since that adjective, when applied to music, is usually a synonym for "GOOD"( or at least it SHOULD be ), the fact that there were multiple postings saying "where are the melodies" and "there are no new ideas" says to these ears that a) some of you may not pay as much attention to vocal lines as you do to the parts the instruments are playing, or b) some of you perhaps can handle wildly inventive Crim accompaniment but perhaps you want or worse, need them to play it safe in the vocal melodies because your taste is not as open or adventurous as you'd thought ( as inconceivable as that might seem ), or perhaps c) some other reason you don't like it that's just a matter of personal taste. Was anyone else struck by the unusually "out there" nature of the vocal melodies? I hope that there is even more to discover in the thick audio foliage of this exciting new release. I feel like a cannibal at the UN - I want to taste EVERYTHING that's in there! Greg Jones ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 15:05:38 +0100 From: "Ron Chrisley" Subject: God dead? The Creator Has A Master Plan; PX > Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:32:59 -0700 > From: "Michael Britt" > Subject: Review: TCOL > > And if God is dead... Response to Lennon? Nietsche. God isn't dead -- he just smells funny (apologies to Zappa). > > Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 08:05:17 EDT > From: "Donnon Murray" > Subject: GIG REVIEW: Greetings from the Front Lines > > Of course the encoring with Bowie's "Heroes" was amazing. Is it me or is > the first time Crimson has covered someone else's material? The Creator Has A Master Plan. Ron Is it just me or does Demolition off the PX CD have the same ascending riff in it as The World's My Oyster? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 10:50:04 EDT From: Hocow at aol dot com Subject: Box sets for sale I jump started my cd collection with "Frame by Frame" and "The First Three" box sets. The "First Three" is a box with picture discs (cover art) of In The Court, Poseidon, and Lizard. In The Court is labeled definitive edition and the other two do not say but I would assume being in the same box set that they also are definitive edition. I now have most of the material on other cd's and would like to sell them. I also have an Islands (EG definitive) I could package with First Three. A cash deal or combination of cash and trade would be possible. I am seeking the cardbaord case Lizard and the first Bears cd. Anybody interested? I'm flexible on price. Someone has "First Three" listed on Ebay for $50 but they have received no bids so that is obviously too high. Make me an offer on either or both sets. They are in good condition. The "Frame Book" has obviously been read but hasn't been beat up. Anybody interested? Brad Wilmot hocow at aol dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 16:11:38 +0100 From: "Cameron Devlin" Subject: ASchulberg's "Bootlegging and Concert Enjoyment" (+ Friday Nashville Show Experience) Part 1: ASchulberg's "Bootlegging and Concert Enjoyment" This post was recently mentioned in Robert Fripp's diary, but I feel the need to reply anyway. AS: By the way, how does Fripp draw the distinction that it's okay for the band to tape the show but not the audience members? I hope that Mr. Schulberg isn't as stupid as he appears, so maybe the position of an "audient" needs to be explained. Fripp is often quoted as saying that the audience is as much a part of the performance as the band itself. However, this does not mean that it's ok to get up on stage, steal Adrian's guitar and play that bit in ProzaKc Blues that you've worked out. It simply means that the audience's attitude affects the performers, and therefore is as important to the overall performance as the band (at least this is how I see it). Despite that, this has no effect on the actual recording of the music. The band wrote/improvised the music and therefore the recording and distribution of this music is their responsibility (at least in Crimson's case, although with most bands on other labels, it is not). The audience is there to enjoy the music and if someone is bootlegging, their minds are on other things (are the levels right, is the microphone on etc.) (NOTE: I think someone already mentioned this, but I can't remember who). Therefore, if someone is bootlegging, their attention/attitude is not entirely with the music and the band is affected. If the band records themselves, they are simply recording more music (in the same way as you would an album). If they choose to make it available, they get money from it (which to me seems perfectly fair). A bootlegger gets an astounding amount of money (for example, I've seen bootlegs of 80s Crimson concerts that cost the same as 6 CDs from the King Crimson Collectors Club) because they went to see the show, and some haven't even done that! I've seen a lot of talk, mainly on the DGM guestbook, about how most people don't make any money from bootlegs and just trade shows instead of selling them. It is my opinion that this is more acceptable than selling bootlegs but still unacceptable. This is still piracy. I do have to admit that bands do bring it on themselves. True collectors buy bootlegs because they have the improvs/variations on themes to offer. Crimson have released three videos, all with the standard songs which, though entertaining, offer nothing new. B'Boom contained only the pre-recorded songs and no improvs/drum trios (on both the Live in Japan 95 video and B'Boom, the title track and Thrak can be counted as improvs but both seem edited). Crimson only started to give bootlegs a run for their money when THRaKaTTaK was released (an entire CD of live improvs from the 1995 Double Trio concerts). Since then, the Epitaph box set was released (which pretty much covers everything you could possibly find in 69 Crimson bootlegs, bar the practise sessions with versions of Michael from Mountains & Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds), and Absent Lovers is all you really need from the 80s lineup, as it seems there was very little improv within the group at the time (I have no idea that this is true, and if it isn't, could I suggest 80s Crimson improvs for an entire disk from the Collectors Club?). The Night Watch is in no way representative of the 72/74 line-up, as they seemed to improvise on most nights of the tours, so I can't really back it up except that it was necessary to complete the series of releases. Also, a fair deal of this live album was on Starless & Bible Black - was there any particular reason that the Amsterdam show was chosen? And now we have the Collectors Club. The musicians get paid, the fans get the live shows/assorted rehersals. This is the compromise. Many people have a go at the Collectors Club because "Fripp hates audience recordings, but he uses audience recordings for the Club!". Of course he uses audience recordings for the club, because for many of the interesting releases, the only recording available is an audience recording. Was the On Broadway release an audience recording? Was the VROOOM Sessions an audience recording? Where legitimate recordings exist, Fripp uses those but these don't exist a lot of the time (Hyde Park, 1969 will have to be an audience recording because they didn't record themselves). Hopefully, this explains my point. If it doesn't, email me and I'll try and condense it into less words. Part 2: Nashville Show Experience Just a quick little thing. On the first night of the King Crimson Nashville residency, Adrian made a comment about time and "how long have I been doing this?" or something like that. One of the audience said "1967" - reference to Adrian Belew song of same name. WHO was the idiot who felt that it was necessary to say "But the band only started in 1969!" Anyone who was there knows what I'm talking about. Who else felt the humour in the air just drop? I feel most sorry for this guy, probably intoxicated at the time, who is going to be made a fool of through BootlegTV and the subsequent CD releases of this show. It makes me shiver just remembering it and especially how the band looked - facial expressions of sudden and total lack of connection with the audience. Luckily, this feeling passed. Thanks for the show, it was incredible (from the front row, close enough to see the settings on Adrian's amp, brag, brag etc. :) Cameron Devlin PS. If the two guys who went to Nashville from New York (one was called Adam I think, wearing a Waters of Eden t-shirt) are reading : I'm the quiet guy from England - Hello. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 18:34:28 -0400 From: "baxlap" Subject: Prozakc reaction Over the weekend, I asked my cousin who is a long-time KC fan if he had heard the new album. He told me that he had bought it and played part of the first track. He said the vocal caused him to think that there was something wrong with his CD player. He stopped playing the album and hadn't played it since. I had to assure him that there was nothing wrong with his player and to get that CD back into it because it's rather good. Andrew Baxley ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 01:19:52 +0200 From: "Marcin Gokieli" Subject: TCOL again Well, time has come... i write my review of TCOL. Unlike most of people on the list i'm not a very intensive kind of crimhead. It used to be my favourite band for a few (four or five) years and i still like them very much, but i just do not listen to fripp stuff a lot anymore: I know what he did, and apreciate it, and i just do not listen to it very much these days (one exception being early Eno studio 'pop' albums that feature RF. They're just amazing. BTW - does anbody knows if anybody is going to remaster them one day?). But it didn't prevent me from buying tickets for both Warsaw shows (and they were not unexpensive). So my opinion may be a bit different (in the sense of coming form a different oint of view) then the ones that has been posted here. I did not holod my breath waiting for the new one - i was just curious what would they do. You know, one can buy loads of Strainsky, Zorn, Davis, Eno, Webern, etc. I do not have time to be too excited by the new releases. And I just like TCOL very much. In fact, i did not think I would like a KC album that much nowdays. My favourites are ProzaKc, oyster soup, and LTIA IV. The 'musican of the album' award goes,of course, to Mr. Mastelotto: this guy play drums. I do think that the drumming onthe new album is the best since 'discipline'. Just listen to what PM does on LTIA! BB cannot aproach that... BTW i got BLUE nights by the same period. I find it much less exciting then the new KC. of course, the rhythm section is excellent, and DT and CB are great - but there's no peculiar idea about that music. Kind of modern version of '70s miles. I love the sound of the album and of the vdrums. It works perfectly, and gives a great sound. BTW - i do believe that one of the reasons for opting for the electric kit was the ease of recording it. acoustic drums are very difficult to record properly. Maybe they wouldn't be able to record it ade's house with the acoustic set. And even if it is not the case - which i feel that is more ten probable - it eases the whole recording. One can concentrate more on music when there's no need to think about 20 mics hanging around the drum set. I like the texts on the new album. I think that AB liked writing them (i doubt he did on thrak). I find it great that RF did just one solo on the album. His solos are very powerful - and one can easily overload an album with such stuff. AB does a great job, and the RF solo is great. I do think that crimson had enough of Bruford. He's a great drummer, but one needs fresh air in a band. KC sound got predictable with him. BTW - one thing strikes me as strange. When I read a negative comment on TCOL, i do not have the impression that the one who wrote it want to say 'oh, just do not buy it. it's not worth the money'. It's rather 'the girl i met does not love me. Why, oh why? What a %$^^@!!!!'. C'mon boys and girls, just buy gardiner doing stravinsky's 'the rake's progress'. A great investemnt, IMHO. Hey- and are the vocals on 'PBlues' really processed? They sound just like belew doing 'bass voice'. And if they are - that means that my vocal processor is really out. I would never get such a natural sound... Sorry for such long post, Marcin Gokieli marcingokieli at go2 dot pl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 00:16:34 -0500 From: "David F. Snyder" Subject: Trey and robert; trey and jerry (and eric); plus a pun >II >Why is both Fripp and Gunn on all ProjeKcts? is Fripp forcing Gunn into >Crimson (it seems so to me)? Having read Gunn's diary after his recent gigs in Texas, it was obvious he loves working with Fripp, and that Gunn is in no way forced into KC - his excitement is clear. Why you envision a dictatorial element to the Fripp persona, especially in regards to band membership, is not so clear to me. Are you implying that Fripp is holding a Gunn to his own head? >IIII >What happened to "the world's unluckiest drummer" Jerry Marotta - as far as I >know he was supposed to play with the double trio before Bruford and >Mastelotto? does anyone know the story? I saw Marotta in mid-april with Gunn and Eric Johnson - at a show in Austin, as the "Vortexan sessions". All the players were in exceptional form - I hope they record some of those soundscapes they laid out! Mastoletto and Max Weinberg (Springsteen's drummer), amongst others, were in the audience, so Jerry knows he has the respect of his peers. He didn't appear to be unlucky to me and he seemed to be having a grand time; incredible drumming! The other two players weren't so bad either ;) They were so impressive that I even bought (for $10) a collector's poster that they had all signed. I hope they get together again! Ciao David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 17:32:11 -0400 (EDT) From: stickman at arcticmail dot com Subject: GIG REVIEW: KC in Nuremberg Hello all! I am happy to report that my wife and I went to the KC show in Nuremberg on Friday night. I will summarize the evening by saying, "Wow!" Below is a collection of my impressions from that evening recalled in very general terms. I could try to break down each song into infinitesimal details but so could a lot of other people. Instead I will give you a glimpse into some of my personal experiences (this post best read while listening to tracks 2-3 of TCoL): BEFORE THE SHOW: The weather is great. We get on the Autobahn and head for Nuremberg at 195 km/h There are no staus & my wife's not a musician but has heard so much KC at home she can't wait to see them - life is good! Arrive at our hotel which is 2 km from concert hall (Serenadenhof). We get a corner room that smells good Hang out for a bit and then walk to the Serenadenhof While walking, we find a park surrounded with little stands selling food and drinks next to a lake Pause to have dinner while watching a lot of physically fit people bike and roller blade all over the place Get to the hall where a few people are hanging out and the tour bus is about 30 feet from the main entrance While trying to find out what time the doors open, Trey Gunn walks by I am a stunning conversationalist so I say, "Hey man" and he being equally eloquent says, "hey" Waiting to get in is like waiting to get on a brand new amusement park ride on its opening day - there is energy in the air! I buy TCoL at the concession table - I can't wait to hear what has everybody so mad/happy Eventually the doors open and my wife and I walk fast to be front row just left of center. We are about 10 feet from the stage As people come in, we are bathed with Soundscapes in a little open air courtyard While waiting, I realize the guy I said "Hey man" to is a roadie. I am glad that I don't ask for autographs The band takes the stage and starts with "Into the Frying Pan" DURING THE SHOW: Adrian Belew looks absolutely happy to be alive - he emanates energy Robert Fripp frequently looks focused on Adrian Belew Pat is wailing away on little plastic disks but I can't hear much in the way of percussion at first except some kick drum Trey caresses the Touch guitar, coaxing out cool lines. I am a Stick player thinking about giving the Touch guitar a test drive It is loud The drum tech scurries over to Pat, tweaks something and presto - we have percussion The mix is bad at first - distorted vocals, squishy farty noises coming from touch guitar - but it clears before first song is over The set list seems to be about the same as what Donnon Murray listed in ET 685 It still shocks me that Adrian can play insane guitar figures and sing at the same time The band seem like they are still tightening up some of the harder pieces Pat is solid but I find it unsettling that he occasionally counts time to Trey who gets lost a few times I am surprised at the ways V-drums can be manipulated (sticks, grabbing, different velocities can mean different sounds, etc.) "One Time" is great. The touch guitar lays down a nice layer of low end, the guitars do their part and Adrian's voice is spot on ToaPP played solo by Adrian Belew with an acoustic guitar is mesmerizing My wife sings along with Dinosaur! I like the music from the new disc but I am sure I would enjoy it more if I had heard the disc first I wait for crazy sounding vocals on ProsaKc Blues but it doesn't sound processed to me - maybe I am too close to the stage ;-) FraKctured gave me some tumescence (see tour guide). It also happened with Lark's Tongue IV but I really dug FraKctured AFTER THE SHOW: We get on the Autobahn and head for Regensburg where my wife will run a half marathon (that's a different thread) My wife is way into Adrian Belew now and was happy she got Robert Fripp to make a teeny smile with a smile of her own I have listened to TCol 3 times since I got home today and I enjoy most of it - listen to it before seeing them live if possible My overall view is that TCoL is another tile in the KC mosaic and whether you do/don't like its shape, size, color, etc. it is the latest element and worth consideration. I can't see just calling it dung and dismissing it, especially after hearing so much of it live. Signing off... Stickman ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #687 ********************************