Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #685 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 685 Friday, 2 June 2000 Today's Topics: NEWS: Tony Levin in The Onion NEWS: New Fripptronics release coming NEWS: Interviews with RF and AB in Polish magazine 'Tylko Rock' TCoL re: Fripp and Monthy Python Re: Andy and other things An insignificant little thought.. Pat Mastelloto Construkction of Light discipline and perfect pair's original mixes Re: The New Album TCoL and Amazon.com sales Ade Larks 4, Oyster, FraKctured - a short reply Bootlegs - again Writing Credits on "One More Red Nightmare" KC-related and other cool shows in Chicago soon audience obligations (taping, etc.) Bootlegging (part 3) vs. Taping Live performance: creative or not? An antidelusional rant Mexico City '96 please? RE: Etiquette Review: ProjeKct X Brufordism Re: Elephant Talk-The Band re:Andy's Snare Attack re:Bootlegging and Concert Enjoyment Re: Dreambumps Re: silly trivia (Crimson Pythons) GIG REVIEW: Greetings from the Front Lines ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:31:33 -0400 From: Dave Hvizda Subject: NEWS: Tony Levin in The Onion Hi All, There's a brief interview with Tony Levin in the Onion this week. http://avclub.theonion.com/justify.html There's also a review of TCoL, Coming Attractions and The Acoustic Adrian Belew in the music archives. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:39:19 -0400 From: "Brown, Ken" Subject: NEWS: New Fripptronics release coming From ProjeKt records (they did the K thing before Fripp!) Robert Fripp is a name that many of you know, from his work with the legendary art rock band King Crimson. Many of you also know that his early 70s collaborations with Brian Eno basically invented the genre of 'ambient music.' For the year 2000, Robert has teamed up with Jeffrey Fayman to release what I can honestly say (in my humble opinion) is one of my favorites of his Fripptronic/Soundscape releases! If you are a fan of the two Fripp & Eno albums (No Pussyfooting and Evening Star), then you must immediately get yourself a copy of the Fayman & Fripp A Temple in the Clouds CD, upon its release on August 22nd. This album will amaze you. It's as if the classic Fripptronics sound has been integrated into a lush looped atmosphere, along the lines of what modern ambient artists are doing. Fripp brings the guitar (and at times the aggression) and Fayman adds electronics, shaping it into an amazing soundscape that will have you headed back to the "play" button as soon as the album is over. Of course I will have more information, photos, & track listing soon; but I wanted to tell you the news, as this is a really important release for us here at Projekt! Their WEBsite is www.projekt.com keep the faith (in the music) ken brown [ Thanks to Mark Wilson for also alerting us to this news. -- Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:49:53 +0000 From: "Krzysztof Ojczyk" Subject: NEWS: Interviews with RF and AB in Polish magazine 'Tylko Rock' In June edition of Polish music magazine 'Tylko Rock' there were a quite interesting interviews with Robert Fripp and Andrew Belew. I am not able to translate even the most courios parts, but I'll try to point out the main conclusions. ABOUT FUTURE: - members of ProjeKct Three have decided to continue their activity - there is an idea of collaboration with others (not ex-members of KC) under the name ProjeKct Three Plus - Pat Mastelotto has a plan of creating another ProjeKct without Robert Fripp participation!!!. Pat has Mr Fripp's blessing. ABOUT TL & BB LEAVING: - during TCoL sessions Pat Mastelotto wrote some drums parts for two drummers, so they are waiting for somebody to join them - by Andrew Belew, collaboration between Fripp and Bruford is impossible - Tony Levin had wanted to join before the TCoL session started, but for Mr Fripp it was too late to change the concept of new KC album - by Mr Fripp, in further future the door against TL & BB won't be locked - Andrew Belew prefers playing with smaller number of musicians in KC ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:44:22 +0200 From: "Vab" Subject: TCoL Hi Crimsonians! Don't ya think the best ironiKc moment of TCoL is the mp3ed splashing sound of the hi-hat in Prozakc Blues? IMHO it's really sounding like all that WinAmp stuff (starts at 00:33)...A Fripp joke for the Napsterians? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:24:31 -0400 From: Philippe Dansereau Subject: re: Fripp and Monthy Python About the Monthy Python's following quote: "One thing is for sure, the sheep is not a creature of the air". Does someone know what it means for the Monty Python, in what context was it said, and why did Robert Fripp put it on his record? Awaiting impatiently for the answer, Philippe. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 16:42:55 PDT From: "Dan Ceo" Subject: Re: Andy and other things On the issue of Andy McCulloch, I think he is a good, unique drummer. But, being drummer myself, it seemed to me that on "Lizard" he tried a little too hard to sound like Giles. I'd like to reply to a question that Daniel Pepper put forth: >I have one question for u...if i told u that Oyster >Soup, Aspic 4, and Frakctured were by an unsigned band called >hgdsfltuihejkfa, what would u say about the songs? would u give them the >thumbs up or thumbs down? I would probably still like the songs, even though I'd think that the hypothetical band in question would need to be a little more original with their titles (i.e. Aspic IV). I'd give it the thumbs up, because you don't see many new bands nowadays that have the balls to play music like this. Dan D. Lion ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 21:35:12 EDT From: "R G" Subject: An insignificant little thought.. I'm new to ET, so please forgive me if this has been mentioned before, but has anyone noticed a similarity between the "Mission: Impossible" theme and the bridge to "21st Century Schizoid Man?" Almost makes you wonder... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 21:59:08 -0400 From: "Jay Black" Subject: Pat Mastelloto I want to thank the kind person who pointed out that Pat played on XTC's Oranges and Lemons from 1989. It has been in my collection since its release as I am a fan of their music. Guess it has been a long while since I perused the liner notes. Did so again tonight, and, lo and behold, there he was, though I must say, Mister Mister and the Rembrandts were a total surprise. Anyway, thanX(TC) for the gentle reminder. And, so long as I am here, no, he is no Bill Bruford, as there is only one Bill Bruford, but he is one fine drummer. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 22:03:16 -0400 From: "Peter Shindler" Subject: Construkction of Light I caved in and purchased TCoL last week, and I've listened to it several times. Hmmm. I can understand why this music is producing such strong feelings here. I'm holding back judgment for now; I'm used to hating every new Crimson album for the first 6 months after hearing it, then suddenly realizing how great it is, which was my experience with Thrak, ThrakAttak, Three of a Perfect Pair, and (gasp!) even In the Court of the Crimson King when I first heard it way back when. So I fully expect the hidden genius of the new album to hit me around mid-November. A few lame observations: I guess I'm the only one who liked "The World's My Oyster..." from the get-go. Yeah, it's just "SSEDD Part II," but it's got a nice groove, some wild soloing by Little Bobby "Spiderfingers" Fripp, and more goofy Belew wordplay. I like the instrumental part of the title track, almost like a Y2K update of "Discipline," but the vocal part hasn't grabbed me yet, even if it does contain the first use of the word "penis" in a Crimson song. "ProzaKc Blues" is a tough pill to swallow; not really close enough to a "real" blues to sound like a parody. I like the vocal treatment, though; how'd Belew do it live? "Fractured" and "Larks Tongues IV" have so far only reminded me how much better their forebears are, but I suppose that'll change with time. If nothing else, hearing them inspired me to break out my Great Deceiver set for the first time in a few years, which is no bad thing. Boy, they haven't changed a bit since 1973, have they? :) The Project X improv "Heaven and Earth" is stunning; I can't wait for the CD. It was a nice move putting the songs on one CD and the improvs on another. I agree with the numerous comments about the need for a quiet piece on here somewhere, something like Matte Kudesai or Walking on Air. The lyrics for "I Have a Dream" may have already been dated, but it would have been a nice contrast to the non-stop cacophany. As regards the V-drums, I'm also holding back for now. Pat seems to favor using them to emulate the same sounds that an acoustic drumset makes, which seems a little strange; sort of like running an electric guitar through a guitar synth, rack compressor, and reverb unit to make it sound like an acoustic guitar. I do love his playing, but he could take a clue from Adrian (c. Projekct 2) when it comes to making fuller use of the possibilities of the V-drums. So far, my favorite thing about the new material is hearing the Gunn/Mastelotto rhythm section back in business for the first time since the "Damage" tour; they're incredible! They may not be as over-the-top as Levin/Bruford, but I'm finding lots of nice subtle stuff on this album, and they're sure tight. No conclusions here; if you like it, great. If not, well, the "Great Deceiver" box will be back soon (right?). I haven't decided yet. Peter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:49:11 PDT From: "Donovan Mayne-Nicholls" Subject: discipline and perfect pair's original mixes I think that the point of releasing gatefold editions of the 24-bit remasters is to replicate as close as possible the original vynil release. Then, what about DISCIPLINE and THREE OF A PERFECT PAIR. Since Fripp replaced the originally released remixes of MATTE KUDASAI and SLEEPLESS for the original mixes, it has become impossible to get the album on CD as it was first released. I've read several times in this page how much people miss those two tracks and I reckon this would be the propitious moment to do so. A studio album is supposed to be somewhat of a definitive statement and even the inclusion of bonus tracks can wreck the original track listing, etc. But knowing how Fripp likes to redraw his band's history, I guess we'd have to start pressing him kinda soon. How about a gatefold YPG? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 20:21:32 -0700 From: proclaimation at juno dot com Subject: Re: The New Album When I mention that LIVE IN MEXICO CITY should have been THRAK, I WAS NOT encouraging nor endorsing bootlegging! I downloaded the file a long time ago and it still works! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 20:35:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Sam Gustas Subject: TCoL and Amazon.com sales In case no one got a chance to spot this.. As of 5/31/2000, King Crimson's TCoL was at #2 on Amazon.com's top sellers list. It was listed as having moved up the chart 9,350%. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 00:15:42 -0600 (MDT) From: dragondancer Subject: Ade Hello, I just wish everyone would get off of Adrians' back. He is so brillant that you might miss it. Love and Light, Auntie Gail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:48:06 +0200 From: Jakub_Grudzinski Subject: Larks 4, Oyster, FraKctured - a short reply In the last ET Newsletter Daniel Pepper wrote this: >I have one question for u...if i told u that Oyster >Soup, Aspic 4, and Frakctured were by an unsigned band called >hgdsfltuihejkfa, what would u say about the songs? would u give >them the thumbs up or thumbs down? I would just explode if I heard that someone else (not Fripp & co.) is able to play such an unbelievably complicated compositions. Maybe I would even start collecting their albums... Best wishes, Boromir the Denethor's son "Buy some TV sets while you'll be returning home - we're starting suffering the lack of them" (Monty Python) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 05:52:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Miklos Subject: Bootlegs - again Hi all Sorry to bring it back again but since Toby allowed us... I will not comment later posts about the subject but just say that I am a collector, I trade bootlegs, I do not buy neither sell them and that I buy ALL King Crimson official releases and I am a Collector's Club member since the very first volume. I have received emails from DGM requesting a copy of the Plymouth show (may 1971) and read DGMs newsletter whith Fripp asking for copies of early 1981 shows as well as Central Park 74. It is obvious he does not have all 69-74 shows and early 81's he'd like to. What for he does want copies it is clearly obvious, official archive releases or CC. I will never ever not buy an official release, even if I have the boot, just because of the fact that I think musicians deserve their rights and also because I am purchasing a first class quality material, far superior to the boots I have in hands. I have the Projeckt box and was somehow very eager to listen to a complete P3 show without Pat's cuts, editings and whatever. Well, I can tell you that official P3 is not what you think it is. A whole show is different and much more pleasent to listen to, IMHO, presenting us with a sense of continuity. Well, without trading boots that obviously came from audience recordings, I would never had the pleasure of listening to music that would be kept away from us forever. If KC would ever release an official P3 I will buy it. I am not trying to stablish a thread here but just say that I allow myself to trade bootlegs just because I buy ALL releases and will keep on doing it. King Crimson is obviously a band which music used to vary from gig to gig and all that was played live simply cannot be commercially released, but is well worth of being listened. But I shall say that I disagree with someone that make profit on bootlegging and that will not buy an official releases because already have a boot recording of it. Ronald Miklos Vogel (Brazil) http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 08:44:43 -0500 From: Justin Kolodziej Subject: Writing Credits on "One More Red Nightmare" > Hello ETer's, > I have a question regarding the writing credits on RED. On my CD copy > it says that "One More Red Nightmare" was written by 'Fripp,Wetton', > but no Palmer-James. Is it just my copy?; it has the Virgin logo but > is missing 'DEFINITIVE EDITION Remastered by Robert Fripp and Tony > Arnold 1989'. It has 'EGCD 15' on it, and was printed in Holland. > > I know that Fripp wrote some of the lyrics to "The Great Deceiver" > and that Wetton changed the lyrics to "Easy Money" at diffrent > concerts, but who wrote the lyrics to "One More Red Nightmare"? Fripp > and/or Wetton, or just > Palmer-James uncredited? > Just wondering,Darryl I'm 99% sure those lyrics are John Wetton's, written about his fear of flying. It's probably mentioned in the ET archives somewhere, or elsewhere in the ET website. P.S. Quoting using ">" is a pain for those like me who only read ET on the web. [ I realise that and I appreciate your effort. -- Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:55:22 -0500 From: "Gene Nemirovsky" Subject: KC-related and other cool shows in Chicago soon Hellllllo Hey, the year is starting to shape up pretty nicely for the Outre Music concert series in CHICAGO. I have two new one's coming up in addition to the three I announced a couple weeks ago...in addition to these, there are several in the pipeline that I'm just dying to make public but at the risk of jinxing, I'm going to keep them under lock and key for the moment. I'd like to thank everyone who has visited my web site at http://outremusic.com/index.htm and to all those that have written expressing their well wishes for the series...I shall continue! [ Dates not relevant to ET skipped -- Toby. ] June 23 at Martyrs' for two separate shows: THE TONY LEVIN BAND featuring JERRY MAROTTA, LARRY FAST & JESSE GRESS! Martyrs' is located at 3855 N. Lincoln Ave. in Chicago and the phone # is (773) 404-9494. Show times are 7:00pm and 10:30pm and tickets are $20. They will be available through Ticket Master (if they ever see fit to put them up) and at the door the night of the show only. Opening for Tony for the SECOND SHOW ONLY will be TEYE ET VIVA LA FLAMENCO, a great flamenco guitarist from the Austin scene who plays with Joe Ely. Tony is touring in support of his new disc "Waters of Eden" (Narada). Some of the material was previewed last month with the California Guitar Trio and it had a nice open sound to it...with a full band behind him now this new material should sound a bit more fleshed out and fuller, as it should. (Jerry and Larry are probably familiar names to everyone, Jesse is the guitarist for the last few Todd Rundgren Utopia projects...in case anyone was wondering.) You won't want to miss this opportunity to see Tony use his "Funk Fingers" up close and personal at the friendly confines of Martyrs'. So now all we're missing is this dude Pete to do some vocals...ahhh...who cares...this show should smoke!!! More info at: http://papabear.com/ September 6, Martyrs'...as promised THE TREY GUNN BAND. Tickets are $15 and will be available through Ticket Master and at the door the night of the show. Show time is 9pm. Fresh from Crimson's Japanese tour, touch guitarist Trey Gunn comes to town in support of his latest "The Joy of Molybdenum". This band is, at it's core, a three piece group. Though, in no way, a normal three piece. Joining Gunn are two other musicians. Tony Geballe, whose personal voice shows his influence of living and studying music in Turkey, plays electric guitar, 12-string acoustic guitar and Turkish saz. Bob Muller, who plays on all of Gunn's solo records, adds a wild percussive assortment of drums, tabla, darbouka, gamelan drum, rik, metals and shakers. "The Joy of Molybdenum" has rapidly become one of my favorites of the last few months. Besides the great playing of Trey (His solo material really shows how integral he is in the greater scheme of things within the King Crimson monster.) I have to say that Bob Muller is one of the coolest drummers around. He seamlessly integrates rock rhythms with middle eastern esthetics to create this bizarre hybrid that fits perfectly into Trey's vision. I can't wait to see these guys live! More info about Trey at http://treygunn.com/ And finally...October 1, at Martyrs'. THE CALIFORNIA GUITAR TRIO returns. Show time is 8pm and tickets are $15. More info as we get closer to the date...besides, I'm getting tired of typing. Ok, that's it for now but...more to come Stay tuned Michael Eisenberg -- Outre Music Music Beyond Boundaries ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:32:05 -0500 From: "Steve Yockey" Subject: audience obligations (taping, etc.) A Robert Fripp quote (from the DGM diaries): More important, the act of music involves the participation & contribution of the audience. My concern addresses the nature and quality of an audience's involvement; how taping & photography subtly undermine the attention of the audience; and then subtly undermines the performance. Please note, this is subtle. A player's concentration may be undermined by a flash, which can be interruptive / intrusive / destructive; and uninvited flash photography is not a subtle act. But an infra-red camera is also disruptive & intrusive, although less obviously so. End Quote. I don't really take issue with Robert's statement, in fact, I suspect he's right. Which is exactly why, as a long time audience member, I'm still more concerned with eliminating the less subtle and much more destructive assaults on my senses that undermine my enjoyment of and attention to the shows I attend. The following occurrences regularly interrupt my participation in and therefore effect my contribution to the show (in order of destructiveness, most to least): 1. People touch me, or regularly enter my personal space Probably the most destructive force, thankfully I believe every Fripp related show I've attended has been seated, which at least generally keeps drunks from riding me during the show. However, seating doesn't completely eliminate the problem. In fact during my first King Crimson concert, someone seated behind me was counting out time with the tunes by kicking my chair. This would have been distracting enough, but this particular amateur drummer suffered from a severe lack of talent, and couldn't even manage to keep proper time with the simpler tunes, ruining the experience for me, and removing me from the show. The inevitable confrontation followed by his refusal to comply with my request to stop didn't help things either. 2. talking over the performance The second most destructive force, and one of the most common. It never ceases to amaze me that people pay money, wait in line, and then talk to each other over the music. And then try telling them to keep it down... 3. excessive enthusiasm, often drunken This usually manifests itself as a personal space violation (#1), as the uncoordinated dancer stuck in a small space, and/or a talking violation (#2), only they attempt to expand their conversation to include members of the band. ("Friiiiiiiippp! Tooooooooony!") 4. beverage and food service during a show The staff of most venues is remarkably insensitive to the show itself, being much more concerned with increasing the bar take. 5. fatigue Okay, so this increasingly becomes an issue as I get older. But even as an energetic youngster, I found it challenging to stand up through several opening bands, deal with all of the exhausting assaults listed above, and then give my full attention to the band I really came to see. Not always so easy. Thanks Robert for helping minimize this with opening bands that make sense (or none at all), and shows of a reasonable length. 6. people coming and going during the show. 7. attacks on my sense of smell. This usually takes the form of cigarette smoke, body odor, or flatulence. The completely unidentifiable smells are even more disturbing. 8. photography/filming Often the band sanctioned version of this is far more distracting than the occasional flashing audience member. Thankfully I haven't seen a cameraperson running around on stage at fripp shows. In comparison to these things, taping barely registers. Years ago I taped shows (I've long since quit), including some shows involving Fripp. I remember sitting next to a guy at one show, with whom I talked briefly between songs, and at the end of the show we each confessed to having taped the show. Sitting right next to each other, we had no idea what the other was up to. If you're a good taper, you can "set it and forget it" (phrase borrowed from rotisserie chicken showmerical guy). (Note that I'm not attempting to justify illicit taping.) Fripp related shows have fairly effectively addressed 1, 7, and 8. And in general, his audiences are generally much more respectful than your average rock audience. But it would be nice to spend some of this energy changing this kind of behavior which really would go so much further toward improving the concert going experience than would stopping taping. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:57:53 -0400 From: "Hammill, Randall -ND" Subject: Bootlegging (part 3) vs. Taping Andrew Fignar, Jr. wrote: >First taping and booting are 2 different beasts, and all, and once again I >say ALL criticism has not seen this distinction. Many tapers, probably most >do not want to boot KC shows. They want to tape them not for profit. The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines bootleg: To produce, reproduce, or distribute illicitly or without authorization. A bootleg is an illegally produced recording, whether your intent is to sell it or not. I do not have the legal definition, but I would bet that it includes the act of recording, not simply the act or (intent) of selling. There are many bands that do allow fans to tape their shows - the Dead, Metallica and Phish are three that come to mind. However, they usually set out a specific location for the tapers to sit so they interfere as little as possible with the enjoyment of the other fans. This also allows the tapers to have a better chance of recording a show without worrying if the guy next to them is going to be loud and obnoxious. I have taped shows in the past (Not King Crimson) and it did detract from our enjoyment of the show - we were worried that we might get caught, we were trying to make sure that those next to us were quiet, we had to keep an eye on the tape to flip it or change it - we accepted all of these because we thought it would be cool to have a copy of the show. In reality, we listened to the show maybe once or twice - but we missed the one chance to truly be part of the experience. I do understand the idea that 'tapers' consider themselves separate from 'bootleggers.' Their intentions are quite different in a profitability sense. But the act itself remains the same - They both want to record a show that they do not own, and that act may interfere with the enjoyment of the show of others. To reiterate my original post there are 2 issues that apply: 1. It is illegal. 2. Respect for the person who owns the music specifically requesting that you do not record it. PS. I indicated that Toby had a link to how to record the Mexico City Download - I was mistaken. There was (is?) a web-page with graphics that somebody had used for their CD and instructions on how to make it. I cannot remember if I found it through Elephant-Talk. I cannot find the link now. Thanks, Toby! Randy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 13:13:12 -0500 From: "David F. Snyder" Subject: Live performance: creative or not? An antidelusional rant At our supper last night, Fripp's diary comments spawned a "lean and lively" discussion between myself, my sig. ot. and our 17-year old son. Some interesting points were raised. 1. King Crimson is allowed to make any rules that they desire concerning admission: this includes price and allowed resources of the admittee. 2. Nobody has to like these rules or the fact that they even exist. 3. In being admitted, the admittee needs understanding of the word "admit": "to grant entrance, whether into a place, or into the mind" or "To allow (one) to enter on an office or to enjoy a privilege" amongst other meanings 4. Some people think admission is a right, others a priviledge or a grant. 5. By relinquishing the ticket of admission, the admittee enters into a contract with the ones granting admission. 6. By issuing a ticket of admission, the issuers are in contractual agreement with the ticket holder. 7. Both parties entering into a contract should (ideally) have the self integrity to honor the terms of that contract. 8. The world is not ideal and there are many people lacking self integrity. 9. Those entering a contract have every right to enforce the terms of that contract. We then got into Fripp's analogy of taking a photo of a statue, which we felt oversimplified the issue (of course, look at the simple minds Fripp is communicating with in that post), in that a statue is a static object even if a result of a dynamic creative process. We thought the analogy of videotaping a play or dance is a more appropriate, if still inaccurate, analogue. Imagine someone in the seat next to you at a Baryshnikov performance making a bootleg videotape, and trying to do it surreptitiously at that - perhaps even asking you to stop moving around so much. Do you let such an outrage go unchallenged? Not me! I'll offer you the coat off my back while you go stand outside. In a live musical performance (though this should apply equally well to other performance arts), we hear the static structure(s) of the songs (which the charts map). This structure is not being created during the performance - but so we hear e.g. Dinosaur instead of Sleepless. On the other hand, during the performance the artists (at least for KC or YES) create for us perspectives of that structure that were not (and could not have possibly ever been) revealed in previous performances or recordings. And there is feedback, looping through the participating audients, to the performer(s). That being said, I proffer another feeble analogy. In physics, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle basically says that if you can tell exactly where something is, it's impossible for you to tell how fast it's going; on the other hand, if you can tell exactly how fast it's going, then you can't know exactly where it is. Knowledge of one excludes knowledge of the other. What causes this to be so? It is the mere presence of the observer! So, a bootlegger is observing the performance for , but they exclude their creative role - which cannot be captured on CD or replaced with cash. Their memory is not a real memory; their "yes" is not a real "yes"; their face is not their real face; their perspective is a deluded perspective. I had a dream: I have a driver's license. Therefore, I can exceed the speed limit. Should I just because I can? Do I assume the laws don't apply to me? Or that they are wrong because they are an inconvenience to me? Me, who am the Center of the Universe? Am I willing to accept the true consequences of this perspective? The maiming and killing of hundreds thousands occur through such blindness. As for me, I see part of my creative role and experience at a KC concert as pointing out to security any bootlegger in my vicinity (how's that for a memory?). Thanks for letting me reveal what I see in others and, by that token, in my self. David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 14:43:06 -0400 From: Tommy Kochel Subject: Mexico City '96 please? Would there be an ETer kind enough to slap the Mexico City concert from BootlegTV onto a CDR for me? I'll pay for the blank CD, your time, and shipping. I don't suppose there's a problem with this, since the Mexico City concert is the "free gift" on the BootlegTV site. Private email, please, at stickist at jazz dot lover dot org Thanks, Tommy Kochel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:55:06 -0700 From: "Nigel Olding" Subject: RE: Etiquette >You're welcome to swear, though. Why do you welcome it? I find the use of swearing over-familiar in this context - if we were all talking on a telephone conference call, would you still welcome it? [ It was meant as a joke. Oh well. -- Toby ] N ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 00 13:19:09 MDT From: claus dot poulsen at usa dot net Subject: Review: ProjeKct X I wonder why there hasn't been said many words on PX compared to TCOL. This CD is at least twice as far away from the good-old "Starless" stuff than TCOL is. No songs or "pieces", it's made up of group improvisations, which have been mixed & chopped thoroughly on computer by Mastelotto and his tech-friend Bill Munyon. The pieces are (mostly) segued together, and you don't get a break before the end. Thus it becomes one whole piece, a travel or a sound-adventure. Mastelotto uses more sequencing and "orchestral / industrial" drumming instead of mimicking real drums (which real drums is best at). No sign of "progressive" or "art-rock": it sounds fresh, and points to the future. Listening to it, I hear ProjeKct 3 & 4, Brian Eno's Headcandy, FSOL's Lifeforms, FFWD, The Orb or Autechre. You get the picture. This is no doubt the best of the ProjeKct discs, and possibly the best KC record (except if you're an old-scool fan). Buy it if you're seeing Crimson on their tour, or get it from DGM. Thank You. But hey, that's me!!!! Kclaus ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 20:18:33 +0100 From: John Peacock Subject: Brufordism When I was browsing in a shop on Denmark Street (London, UK) the other day, I came across what looks to be a very fine book by Bill Bruford, called "When In Doubt, Roll", in which he discusses various songs he played on (with transcription). I was tempted to buy it, since it did seem fascinating, but since I am the worst drummer in the world, thought it might be a irrelevant purchase (I bought Adrian's 1984 instructional video instead - fifteen years out of date, which is a bad thing when it comes to the discussion of cutting edge technology, but a nostalgiafest for those of us who were thereabouts then). In Bruford's discussion of Discipline, he says that some audients (invariably "young, white, american males") would be offended that the 1981 music required less demonstrative percussion and would call out "Play Something!" at concerts, evidently feeling some discontent that the 1981 KC was not the 1974 KC. Plus ce change - those same YWAMs (or their descendants) are now bemoaning the loss of Bruford. May I humbly suggest that Mr Fripp, if the YWAM hostility to Mr Mastellotto continues, employ me in his place, since I am, as I said, The Worst Drummer In The World, and would have the YWAMs baying for the return of Mr Mastellotto pretty sharpish. V-Drums or no V-Drums. For my own part, I think Mr Mastellotto's a very fine drummer indeed. He is not Bill Bruford, but then we'd have two Bill Brufords. Which would be scary. Especially for Mrs Bruford. John P.S. - Mr Pepper, whatever the quality of the material, "Hgdsfltuihejkfa" is a very, very bad name for a band. Worse even than "The Beatles". ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:32:47 -0400 From: "pavane" Subject: Re: Elephant Talk-The Band Matt McCaffree wrote: > Let's say there was a band. And in this band was Trey Gunn, Pat Mastelotto, > Adrian Belew and Robert Fripp. And this band wasn't called King Crimson. > Instead, it's name was. . . oh, I don't know. . . how about "Elephant > Talk." And let's say this band released "The ConstruKction of Light." In that case I suppose the name of the album would actually be "The ConstrucEtion of Light" (?). pavane ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:49:42 -0500 From: "Grant Colburn" Subject: re:Andy's Snare Attack (Lewis Southers wrote) >OK, I have a question about the fine drummer, Andy McCulloch. Did he lose >all of his drum set except for the snare drum on the way to the Lizard >sessions or what? I don't mean this as a criticism, I just find it very odd >that almost the entire album is played (quite deftly) on the snare drum. Is >there a story behind this or was this just what he wanted to play? Yeah Lewis, I'd have to agree. Unfortunately for me the drumming on Lizard is some of my least favorite of all Crimsons. In fact it bugs the hell out of me. The entire album seems like it was one big snare solo for Andy. I don't actually know any story of why he played this way other than it was probably his style and after Giles, Fripp probably still went for jazz based drummers due to their having better technique (at least in the early 70's). For me I'm quite happy that Crimson finally has a 100% rock drummer playing now. From my own band experience there's a different mentality with a rock drummer over a jazz drummer, especially with set compositions. Jazz drummers seem to think that settling on a part makes playing boring, whereas rock drummers seem more inclined to search out for the BEST part for the music at hand and be willing to keep it that way. An example to me is Bruford's playing on Lark's #1. On the studio his part was great, but all live recordings I've heard (like Great Deciever) he changed his part for the 7/4 riff into more of a half time feel, which for me at least killed the forward drive of the original. Obviously this is only my opinion, but being a writer of rock music, its hard to slave over composing a piece of music to get everything "just right" only to have the drummer think its cool to freeform improv. through the whole thing. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:04:13 -0500 From: "Grant Colburn" Subject: re:Bootlegging and Concert Enjoyment (Arnie wrote) >Glad to see my last post got so many impassioned responses. Rather than >reply to them all individually, let me just say that I understand the >concept of copyright and the idea that bootlegging is illegal. If that were >the sum of Mr. Fripp's complaint I would let it lie. However, I object to >gussying this basic premise up in philosophical guise and much claptrap >about the musician/audient relationship, etc., etc. I think its kind of sad that you imply that Fripp's complaint is "gussied up in philosophical guise and much claptrap" like somehow these are mere excuses that he doesn't really believe in. I personally think that these philosophical reasons are true and legitimate concerns that are based on REAL experiences that Fripp has had. Many of his concepts are based on concepts that are not his own invention. Studies of interpersonal relationships, group psychology, and even the subtle energies that yoga and possibly other occult sciences reveal all would show that Fripp's concerns are legitimate and acknowledged to be true by others besides himself. If you, yourself have never read or studied such ideas and concepts then I would suggest you look into them before criticizing with blanket condemnations. Your reasons for "not letting it lie" are mostly due to your lack of knowledge or experience with what he is talking about, not because (as you seem to believe) Fripp is attempting to pull a fast one with psychobabble. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:15:36 EDT From: GenoTT at aol dot com Subject: Re: Dreambumps >My own nerves reacted differently than yours. About half way through the >lyrics I got chills (goosebumps) from the tip of my scalp right down my >spine into my legs landing at my toes where lucky for me my cat, Rothko, >was there to ground me. Then tears blurred my vision. Don't get me wrong, I had the same reaction to "Larks' IV" in general. "Dream" is a powerful piece of music; it just seems to me that the lyrics interfere. KC doesn't need words to give the impression of a manic chaotic whirlwind (check "Red," "Thrak," "Industry" or "Fracture" to name a few). And isn't current social commentary something they've always avoided? I can do without being reminded of the worst things this almost-past century had to offer. The "Death Pain Horror Suffering Misery Doom & Despair Song" could have fit in on one of Belew's projects, maybe an acoustic addition to something like BelewPrints or Salad Days, but I can't help feeling it's a little out of place on a King Crimson album. Other thoughts? Arguments, agreements? -g ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:16:50 +0100 From: "D. Chinn" Subject: Re: silly trivia (Crimson Pythons) >"Eric Young" wrote: >Here is a stupid little something to get your minds off all the bitching (and for all proud folks who >know it 'ALL). Just a small trivia question; I won't be suprised at how many know this, but...... >Q: In what way are Robert Fripp and Monty Python associated? > (and PLEASE don't say ''they're both English''!.....) This isn't an attempt to restart the "Six Degrees of Robert Fripp" thread, is it? Hmmm... well, apart from the fact that Robert Fripp and John Cleese both follow Gurdijieff's teachings (or versions of them, anyway), I'm not sure. Let's plough the fields and scatter and see what comes up... Michael Palin's a Bruce Springsteen fan if he's anything, so that's a dead end. Eric Idle plays decent guitar, but he's no Crafty. Dead end there, too. Pat Mastellotto happens to be a dead ringer for Terry Gilliam, but I'm sure that's a coincidence. If you wanted to play Six Degrees, there's the Terry Jones - Jim Henson's "Labyrinth" - David Bowie - Robert Fripp connection. Did Robert ever work with Python-connected musicians such as Ray Cooper, George Harrison and Neil Innes (the latter was onstage in London with Yo La Tengo the other month, odd for a former Bonzo...)? Can't be anything as tenuous as "Circus/Cirkus"... Nope, I'm stumped. I give up. The heavy-duty Frippologists can have this one. regards, Dann Chinn (@"Misfit City" eclectic music e-zine: http://www.collective.co.uk/misfitcity) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 08:05:17 EDT From: "Donnon Murray" Subject: GIG REVIEW: Greetings from the Front Lines Hello from East Berlin. Just saw the show last night and the second night of Copenhagen as well. Set List in Copenhagen was: Frying Pan TCOL Prozac Fraktured Dinosaur One Time Sex,Sleep... Heaven+Earth Oyster Soup Cage Lark's IV Coda Three of a Perfect Pair Instrumental Vroom Heroes. The Setlist in Berlin was the same except that Oyster Soup and Prozac switched places. Both show were great although I think the playing in Berlin was markedly better than Copenhagen. "Cage" was certainly a highlight given that I'd never seen it performed live before, but it was made that much more interesting by the fact that Adrian played acoustic guitar. It was like the psycho-country western version. It was also made interesting by the fact that they extended the arrangement giving Robert several solos between verses which he appropriately tore up. The Copenhagen version was particularly comical. First Adrian began to sing the first verse again during the second verse and had to apologize before starting over. He made reference to a rainbow he had mentioned earlier that he'd seen on the way to the show. It was perhaps to note the irony that he had said that the rainbow was a good sign. Even funnier was when someone, PM I believe, made an explosion sound when Adrian sang "Holy smoke, someone blew up the Pope". It seemed to have caught Ade off guard and he started laughing and couldn't continue. Another highlight was of course Adrian's solo acoustic version of Three of a Perfect Pair. It gave the song a whole new quality. Of course the encoring with Bowie's "Heroes" was amazing. Is it me or is the first time Crimson has covered someone else's material? Anyway, Copenhagen was very good but Berlin's performance blew it away. Louder, punchier, tighter. Fripp was a monster. He's soloing more and louder this tour that the last three combined. Comic moment of the evening in Berlin was during Oyster Soup when Adrian said "Play it for me Slimey Fingers", Fripp paused and blew on his finger nails before beginning his solo. There were marked differences in the Copenhagen and Berlin performances, qualitatively speaking. All of Fripp's solos seemed longer and more intense in Berlin. One Time was chillingly beautiful. ADrian's vocals seemed more impassioned and powerful. Vroom and TCOL were tighter. Fripp' playing on Heroes in Berlin was more fluid and melodic.Heaven and Earth and the Instrumental encore seem to be malable and will probably change every night, keeping things interesting. Though it' saddens me that the set list isn't changing, the quality of the performance is. It's still early in the game too. I can't wait till mid-tour when they really hit their stride. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #685 ********************************